“Nathan will have players he likes and we’ll have players we suggest. We will put them all together. He watches them and we give a shortlist – work out financially if they fit – and then he will choose which one he wants from them."
Another shit show on the horizon, how about Nathan will have players he likes & we'll pull out all the stops to ensure that we go out & get those players.
Because if the players Nathan Jones personally chooses are all duds (ask Stoke fans how they enjoyed his 2019 summer signings) then we’ll have to go looking for another manager in six months with a bunch of overpaid players we can’t get rid of for the next manager.
Nathan Jones’ input should be important, the most important in the room. But he shouldn’t get a blank cheque book to do with what he likes. There has to be a club strategy that isn’t thinking in the short term only.
Because scotts signings/loans have worked so well this season haven't they ? I think I know who I'd trust to get it right.
My point was that you shouldn’t let one single person dictate everything and everyone - Jones, Scott, whoever it might be. Jones even said himself when he came in that it was about building processes that means if someone leaves, the club can still be successful into the future.
I appreciate that & agree with you but hasn't scott been doing exactly that ? He seems to have been the one pulling the strings & deciding who comes into the club & it's been a disaster. scott should be nowhere near the recruitment process. NJ has come into the club as manager & has a very knowledgeable & experienced right hand man together with all his other assistants & scouts at the club. They should be trusted & given support by the likes of our "Technical Director" :-) to recruit the players that they want specifically to play in the formation that they want not presented with a shortlist of players of which scott has had his input from which NJ can then choose one.
Has he though? I don’t know who had final approval on the players we signed in the last two windows. Did Scott put together a list, based on everyone’s input, and then Holden/Appleton picked the ones they wanted?
I don’t know the answer, but all along they’ve said this is a team effort, and if that’s true, then it’s a team failure, no one persons fault.
“Nathan will have players he likes and we’ll have players we suggest. We will put them all together. He watches them and we give a shortlist – work out financially if they fit – and then he will choose which one he wants from them."
Another shit show on the horizon, how about Nathan will have players he likes & we'll pull out all the stops to ensure that we go out & get those players.
Because if the players Nathan Jones personally chooses are all duds (ask Stoke fans how they enjoyed his 2019 summer signings) then we’ll have to go looking for another manager in six months with a bunch of overpaid players we can’t get rid of for the next manager.
Nathan Jones’ input should be important, the most important in the room. But he shouldn’t get a blank cheque book to do with what he likes. There has to be a club strategy that isn’t thinking in the short term only.
Because scotts signings/loans have worked so well this season haven't they ? I think I know who I'd trust to get it right.
My point was that you shouldn’t let one single person dictate everything and everyone - Jones, Scott, whoever it might be. Jones even said himself when he came in that it was about building processes that means if someone leaves, the club can still be successful into the future.
I appreciate that & agree with you but hasn't scott been doing exactly that ? He seems to have been the one pulling the strings & deciding who comes into the club & it's been a disaster. scott should be nowhere near the recruitment process. NJ has come into the club as manager & has a very knowledgeable & experienced right hand man together with all his other assistants & scouts at the club. They should be trusted & given support by the likes of our "Technical Director" :-) to recruit the players that they want specifically to play in the formation that they want not presented with a shortlist of players of which scott has had his input from which NJ can then choose one.
Won’t the players suggested by the club, via Scott, be based on information from the assistants and scouts?
Difficult for me to say I was wrong about Andy Scott because I was convinced we had a Professional football man in charge after the Amateurs of the Duchatelet/Meire and Thomas/Martin Sandgaard tenure.
The appointment of the quiet man head coach Michael Appleton when we needed a loud Nathan Jones type of manager who wasn't a yes man nearly saw CAFC reach it's nadir of the 4th tier. Andy Scott said Mickey Apples was the outstanding candidate ! How could Scott not see that CAFC needed a large character like Jones who had galvanised lowly Luton. I understand Nathan wasn't available at that time but was MA the "outstanding candidate" or just cheap as chips ?
Charlton Athletic is a tough gig as the years in the premier in the Noughties have given rise to a dwindling fan base (who actually turn up at the valley) and who see League 1 as a bed sit flat where one has to share a toilet after the Premier days of the six bedroom detached house with the electric gates complete with Gardener and cleaner.
Look, Charlton have gone from beating Chelsea in Premier, home and away to losing to Southern neighbours Bristol Rovers at the valley and in the west country, in the 3rd tier. We are really stuck down under at present.
IF Andy Scott's ego allows, it would be a good idea for him to come out and say that personally, he made bad calls with not only Appleton but by not pushing for George Dobson to have a contract which was consummate with his performances over the last 3 seasons and that along with Alfie May we had at least 2 players that are good enough to see Charlton promoted.
But our first choice was Nathen Jones but he was not ready to return to football so we went for MA … Why does he need to come out they offered Dobson a few contracts but HE decided to sign for another team .. perhaps Dobson the one who needs to explain why he signed and not waited till end of the season
Difficult for me to say I was wrong about Andy Scott because I was convinced we had a Professional football man in charge after the Amateurs of the Duchatelet/Meire and Thomas/Martin Sandgaard tenure.
The appointment of the quiet man head coach Michael Appleton when we needed a loud Nathan Jones type of manager who wasn't a yes man nearly saw CAFC reach it's nadir of the 4th tier. Andy Scott said Mickey Apples was the outstanding candidate ! How could Scott not see that CAFC needed a large character like Jones who had galvanised lowly Luton. I understand Nathan wasn't available at that time but was MA the "outstanding candidate" or just cheap as chips ?
Charlton Athletic is a tough gig as the years in the premier in the Noughties have given rise to a dwindling fan base (who actually turn up at the valley) and who see League 1 as a bed sit flat where one has to share a toilet after the Premier days of the six bedroom detached house with the electric gates complete with Gardener and cleaner.
Look, Charlton have gone from beating Chelsea in Premier, home and away to losing to Southern neighbours Bristol Rovers at the valley and in the west country, in the 3rd tier. We are really stuck down under at present.
IF Andy Scott's ego allows, it would be a good idea for him to come out and say that personally, he made bad calls with not only Appleton but by not pushing for George Dobson to have a contract which was consummate with his performances over the last 3 seasons and that along with Alfie May we had at least 2 players that are good enough to see Charlton promoted.
But our first choice was Nathen Jones but he was not ready to return to football so we went for MA … Why does he need to come out they offered Dobson a few contracts but HE decided to sign for another team .. perhaps Dobson the one who needs to explain why he signed and not waited till end of the season
At the start of the season Andy Scott said anything less than the play offs would be a failure. 3 managers and 40 odd players later we finished in our lowest league position for 98 years. This is on him. Whenever he talks he never acknowledges his mistakes he just comes out with well rehearsed soundbites that gullible people like yourself fall for. As I've said before I shall judge him on what he achieves and not on what he says. At the moment I see very little to praise him for.
“Nathan will have players he likes and we’ll have players we suggest. We will put them all together. He watches them and we give a shortlist – work out financially if they fit – and then he will choose which one he wants from them."
Another shit show on the horizon, how about Nathan will have players he likes & we'll pull out all the stops to ensure that we go out & get those players.
Because if the players Nathan Jones personally chooses are all duds (ask Stoke fans how they enjoyed his 2019 summer signings) then we’ll have to go looking for another manager in six months with a bunch of overpaid players we can’t get rid of for the next manager.
Nathan Jones’ input should be important, the most important in the room. But he shouldn’t get a blank cheque book to do with what he likes. There has to be a club strategy that isn’t thinking in the short term only.
Because scotts signings/loans have worked so well this season haven't they ? I think I know who I'd trust to get it right.
My point was that you shouldn’t let one single person dictate everything and everyone - Jones, Scott, whoever it might be. Jones even said himself when he came in that it was about building processes that means if someone leaves, the club can still be successful into the future.
I appreciate that & agree with you but hasn't scott been doing exactly that ? He seems to have been the one pulling the strings & deciding who comes into the club & it's been a disaster. scott should be nowhere near the recruitment process. NJ has come into the club as manager & has a very knowledgeable & experienced right hand man together with all his other assistants & scouts at the club. They should be trusted & given support by the likes of our "Technical Director" :-) to recruit the players that they want specifically to play in the formation that they want not presented with a shortlist of players of which scott has had his input from which NJ can then choose one.
Has he though? I don’t know who had final approval on the players we signed in the last two windows. Did Scott put together a list, based on everyone’s input, and then Holden/Appleton picked the ones they wanted?
I don’t know the answer, but all along they’ve said this is a team effort, and if that’s true, then it’s a team failure, no one persons fault.
The last mess of a season is on Scott’s watch. Scott would take the credit if it had gone well but has no accountability or acknowledgment for the lowest finish in 98 years.
Charlton looked seriously as though they would be relegated with Appleton. Yet Scott hung on with him until likely someone else intervened to force a change. The Dobson contract handling, icing on a cake of shit. Evidence of Scott’s judgement of player & character.
Being dragged into a Peterborough public contact handling for Jonson Harris not good either. Doesn’t fill me with confidence that he still plans to present players for consideration.
Scott is the technical director & decisions of how the squad was left a bloated, defensive, & direction less mess was down to him. As ‘technical director’ & responsible for arranging last season’s strategy.
Attempts to deflect onto the team, & Scott’s statements doesn’t fill me with confidence that any lessons have been learned.
Hanging onto hope that Nathan Jones has the final say on players & characters he wants in the team.
If, as I suspect, NJ is basically now in charge of recruitment Scott isn’t going to come out and say that. He’s going to spin it that he still has significant input into the process. NJ wouldn’t have come here if he was going to be fobbed off at the earliest opportunity by such waffle, he would have been promised absolute charge of what goes on. Scott is just deflecting criticism of him personally. I don’t know the exact ins and outs of the Dobbo situation so it’s hard to judge and CBT going was probably the right decision at the time. Where I do think Scott should accept his responsibility’s is in that at the start of the season anything less than the play offs was failure. Well mate, we failed, miserably. He should at least acknowledge that and we move on. If it happens again though he’s surely toast.
Methven said himself that he didn’t want to be involved in the day to day running of the club, that he realised that it wasn’t one of his strengths, that’s why Scott is here, to run the footballing side. Yes, it will take a while to turn the club around but 3 managers and the lowest finish since 1926 is a woeful performance. We could not buy a win towards the end of Appleton’s reign. We looked certain to go down. We’re led to believe the owners personally intervened with the recruitment of Jones, and just before that Scott failed to secure a deal to keep one of our better players and club captain at the club. A player that Jones seems to rate highly. It’s rubbish to say we offered Dobbo what he wanted, if they’d done that he would’ve signed, the fans are not stupid. A utterly miserable first full season in charge, littered with bad decisions but Scott has to own it, he’s in charge, we can’t make excuses for him. We hear messages from the SMT via posters here that they are learning, that’s worrying when we were told the SMT were supposed to be the professional option after Sandgaard’s family thinking it was like playing FIFA. But despite the calamitous season Scott is still here, explaining how he’s still involved in player decisions. Other clubs wouldn’t have been so accommodating, he would’ve been fired long ago.
Methven has a terrible record of involvement in football, we were warned about this, everything he touches seems to turn to crap, and he is still here too. If Jones is to achieve anything next season I think it will be in despite of these two. Jones has in the past been guilty of accepting jobs where the odds were stacked against him succeeding (Stoke and Southampton). I sincerely hope he hasn’t done the same with Charlton.
Keep seeing posts saying he should own last seasons mess and said he would, but that won't placate fans. If he did, all it would do is make him continuing in his position untenable in their eyes, so there's no chance of that.
Keep seeing posts saying he should own last seasons mess and said he would, but that won't placate fans. If he did, all it would do is make him continuing in his position untenable in their eyes, so there's no chance of that.
A bit like a millwall home game, a deafening silence.
He’s basically saying that we are going to do the same process, with the same budget but hopes NJ’s input is better than the last 2 - the reality is, NJ will be calling the shots and he can negotiate the deals - I hope
Keep seeing posts saying he should own last seasons mess and said he would, but that won't placate fans. If he did, all it would do is make him continuing in his position untenable in their eyes, so there's no chance of that.
So Scott is able to make lots of unaccountable promises about top 6 & produce the worst finish in 98 years, without explaining anything?
Has Scott & SMT learnt anything? Its not about being placated. It’s about Scott & SMT acknowledging the disappointing season & how they plan to do better & what will be done differently.
I am yet to see evidence that Scott provides sufficient expertise on the budget available.
Whether the budget available is competitive enough for anything other than a midtable finish is another question.
Keep seeing posts saying he should own last seasons mess and said he would, but that won't placate fans. If he did, all it would do is make him continuing in his position untenable in their eyes, so there's no chance of that.
So Scott is able to make lots of unaccountable promises about top 6 & produce the worst finish in 98 years, without explaining anything?
Has Scott & SMT learnt anything? Its not about being placated. It’s about Scott & SMT acknowledging the disappointing season & how they plan to do better & what will be done differently.
I am yet to see evidence that Scott provides sufficient expertise on the budget available.
Whether the budget available is competitive enough for anything other than a midtable finish is another question.
Only what happens next season will convince me anything has been learned, not sound bites from him or anyone else.
@Garrymanilow as usual you bring common sense and reason to the issue. There are though two reasons why I think we are not yet all ridiculous for having a problem with Scott. Both are things that nobody accused Gallen of
1. it’s widely held that Scott, rather than Holden was in charge of “shaping” the squad for this last season. I don’t know whether that is actually true but I seem to recall him talking about all the lower level teams being schooled to play the same shape. On paper, or in the FAPL that may seem very sensible and strategic. I just think that at this level you have to be more pragmatic. That is certainly Curbs way. He would have kept CBT and would have done all he can to get JRS back. As he pointed out they contributed a large number of goals. So from a distance it looks like Scott having rather grand ideas about his role. Well his current title is quite grand, isn’t it, compared with his Forest one.
2. He comes across as someone who might be prone to over-estimating himself. He did say that he would be judged on his performance at the end of the season. He didnt need to say anything like that. Steve Gallen didn’t come out with such self-important guff. He’s made a rod for his own back.
I also agree with @Callumcafc that Jones should not have carte blanche over the squad. It would be good if he worked closely with a recruitment head, and then you need someone on the Board who sorts things out when they disagree. The question remains whether it should be Scott.
Methven said himself that he didn’t want to be involved in the day to day running of the club, that he realised that it wasn’t one of his strengths, that’s why Scott is here, to run the footballing side. Yes, it will take a while to turn the club around but 3 managers and the lowest finish since 1926 is a woeful performance. We could not buy a win towards the end of Appleton’s reign. We looked certain to go down. We’re led to believe the owners personally intervened with the recruitment of Jones, and just before that Scott failed to secure a deal to keep one of our better players and club captain at the club. A player that Jones seems to rate highly. It’s rubbish to say we offered Dobbo what he wanted, if they’d done that he would’ve signed, the fans are not stupid. A utterly miserable first full season in charge, littered with bad decisions but Scott has to own it, he’s in charge, we can’t make excuses for him. We hear messages from the SMT via posters here that they are learning, that’s worrying when we were told the SMT were supposed to be the professional option after Sandgaard’s family thinking it was like playing FIFA. But despite the calamitous season Scott is still here, explaining how he’s still involved in player decisions. Other clubs wouldn’t have been so accommodating, he would’ve been fired long ago.
Methven has a terrible record of involvement in football, we were warned about this, everything he touches seems to turn to crap, and he is still here too. If Jones is to achieve anything next season I think it will be in despite of these two. Jones has in the past been guilty of accepting jobs where the odds were stacked against him succeeding (Stoke and Southampton). I sincerely hope he hasn’t done the same with Charlton.
Round and round we go... Methven doesn't run the club, he apparently does some commercial/marketing work but has nothing to do with the day to day running of the football side or transfer related. He essentially had the contacts to network and speak to multi millionaires/billionaires which I don't think many of our fan base have access to. Apart from the Netflix documentary, where else has he had "a terrible record of involvement in football"?
Scott has been less than ideal, but a fair chunk of our shitshow of a season is having to deal with the train wreck left to them by multiple irresponsible and incompetent previous owners. Cuts to budgets and staffing and pruning of the scouting network by successive regimes (Chapple left because Roland Rat ignored him and listened to poxy Mowgli and NightMeire) meant we had to slip into the merky waters of damaged goods with injury records/players on the way down long before Scott arrived.
The 'not believing Scott let's the manager choose players' idea is also not quite right; they let Appleton have Fiorini and went after Coventry who Apples had prior knowledge of. Small and Ramsay were clearly NJ players, and he was backed and allowed to bring in Wickham and Lua Lua (no one says anything about Lua Lua who was clearly an NJ choice). If you're happy to blindly listen to Sunderland fans about Methven, then you probably can't just ignore Stoke fans criticisms of Jones and his tenure, playing style and transfer activity.
Nathan Jones is not the messiah, Scott and Methven are not evil incarnate. The bookies are usually pretty good for predictions and most had us preseason around the playoffs with the perceived quality of our squad at the time. How badly we underperformed is concerning but the season was overshadowed by Tommy boy not moving his guitars and sons black box/Xbox out fast enough, Holden (nice bloke to have a beer with) being ineffective, MA appointment (underwhelming but CV fitted what we were looking for - allegedly good with young players, play off squad experience), contract issues with key players where one refused to sign and another who felt sleighted and signed somewhere else. Plus we STILL have deadwood that needs hacking away.
We now have a top notch manager, we have investment into the club again, improved infrastructure/medical/sports science, evidence of backing regarding the transfer market and seemingly an actual plan to what we're trying to do.
The owners are not mugs, they and the SMT know that continued failure to produce results is not acceptable. This coming season should be exciting, we need to get past salmon coloured chinos and other distractions and support the team. That's not just the playing staff but everyone connected to the club, including the SMT to get us back where we belong and out of this crap league.
Keep seeing posts saying he should own last seasons mess and said he would, but that won't placate fans. If he did, all it would do is make him continuing in his position untenable in their eyes, so there's no chance of that.
It does seem people won't be happy until Scott commits seppuku in front of the Covered End first game of the season...
Methven said himself that he didn’t want to be involved in the day to day running of the club, that he realised that it wasn’t one of his strengths, that’s why Scott is here, to run the footballing side. Yes, it will take a while to turn the club around but 3 managers and the lowest finish since 1926 is a woeful performance. We could not buy a win towards the end of Appleton’s reign. We looked certain to go down. We’re led to believe the owners personally intervened with the recruitment of Jones, and just before that Scott failed to secure a deal to keep one of our better players and club captain at the club. A player that Jones seems to rate highly. It’s rubbish to say we offered Dobbo what he wanted, if they’d done that he would’ve signed, the fans are not stupid. A utterly miserable first full season in charge, littered with bad decisions but Scott has to own it, he’s in charge, we can’t make excuses for him. We hear messages from the SMT via posters here that they are learning, that’s worrying when we were told the SMT were supposed to be the professional option after Sandgaard’s family thinking it was like playing FIFA. But despite the calamitous season Scott is still here, explaining how he’s still involved in player decisions. Other clubs wouldn’t have been so accommodating, he would’ve been fired long ago.
Methven has a terrible record of involvement in football, we were warned about this, everything he touches seems to turn to crap, and he is still here too. If Jones is to achieve anything next season I think it will be in despite of these two. Jones has in the past been guilty of accepting jobs where the odds were stacked against him succeeding (Stoke and Southampton). I sincerely hope he hasn’t done the same with Charlton.
a fair chunk of our shitshow of a season is having to deal with the train wreck left to them by multiple irresponsible and incompetent previous owners. Cuts to budgets and staffing and pruning of the scouting network by successive regimes (Chapple left because Roland Rat ignored him and listened to poxy Mowgli and NightMeire) meant we had to slip into the merky waters of damaged goods with injury records/players on the way down long before Scott arrived.
Both those incompetent owners managed to do better than this lot have so far. In what is a remarkably weak league this year, this team have overseen our worst season in 98 years. How do you take over from such 'incompetent' owners and manage to do worse than them?
I agree that Dutchatelet cut every department to the bone - but let's not forget that it was Sandgaard left to pick up the pieces. He reinvested into the infrastructure, particularly in rebuilding the medical and coaching departments and redeveloped the training ground (in the failed attempt to gain category one status). Before him, I think the player's gym was in a tent. He still finished higher up the league than this gang.
So he inherited far worse, and yet did better. This current SMT have walked into a club with a more stable infrastructure and yet managed to perform worse than both Sandgaard and Dutchatelet.
Methven said himself that he didn’t want to be involved in the day to day running of the club, that he realised that it wasn’t one of his strengths, that’s why Scott is here, to run the footballing side. Yes, it will take a while to turn the club around but 3 managers and the lowest finish since 1926 is a woeful performance. We could not buy a win towards the end of Appleton’s reign. We looked certain to go down. We’re led to believe the owners personally intervened with the recruitment of Jones, and just before that Scott failed to secure a deal to keep one of our better players and club captain at the club. A player that Jones seems to rate highly. It’s rubbish to say we offered Dobbo what he wanted, if they’d done that he would’ve signed, the fans are not stupid. A utterly miserable first full season in charge, littered with bad decisions but Scott has to own it, he’s in charge, we can’t make excuses for him. We hear messages from the SMT via posters here that they are learning, that’s worrying when we were told the SMT were supposed to be the professional option after Sandgaard’s family thinking it was like playing FIFA. But despite the calamitous season Scott is still here, explaining how he’s still involved in player decisions. Other clubs wouldn’t have been so accommodating, he would’ve been fired long ago.
Methven has a terrible record of involvement in football, we were warned about this, everything he touches seems to turn to crap, and he is still here too. If Jones is to achieve anything next season I think it will be in despite of these two. Jones has in the past been guilty of accepting jobs where the odds were stacked against him succeeding (Stoke and Southampton). I sincerely hope he hasn’t done the same with Charlton.
a fair chunk of our shitshow of a season is having to deal with the train wreck left to them by multiple irresponsible and incompetent previous owners. Cuts to budgets and staffing and pruning of the scouting network by successive regimes (Chapple left because Roland Rat ignored him and listened to poxy Mowgli and NightMeire) meant we had to slip into the merky waters of damaged goods with injury records/players on the way down long before Scott arrived.
Both those incompetent owners managed to do better than this lot have so far. In what is a remarkably weak league this year, this team have overseen our worst season in 98 years. How do you take over from such 'incompetent' owners and manage to do worse than them?
I agree that Dutchatelet cut every department to the bone - but let's not forget that it was Sandgaard left to pick up the pieces. He reinvested into the infrastructure, particularly in rebuilding the medical and coaching departments and redeveloped the training ground (in the failed attempt to gain category one status). Before him, I think the player's gym was in a tent. He still finished higher up the league than this gang.
So he inherited far worse, and yet did better. This current SMT have walked into a club with a more stable infrastructure and yet managed to perform worse than both Sandgaard and Dutchatelet.
Think the playing squad alone was a train wreck inherited that hamstrung us. Legacy contracts we had to/couldn't shift and/or had to loan out the majority of (Kirk/McGrandles x2 loans/DJ x2 loans/Payne/Fraser/O'Connell etc). Sandgaard bought the portercabins from Reading, but allegedly didn't get enough coaches and support staff to gain Cat 1 (the whole politics of not wanting to give a L1 club Cat 1 status is another debate). Then they're was the culture (or lack thereof) that was documented with allegations of bullying and constructive dismissals etc.
Certain parts of the fanbase have said numerous times that they would accept (almost welcome) relegation to aid the removal of whatever Mickey Mouse operation was currently doing us wrong and not looking after the club with the correct amount of care, attention and support. It is possible to judge last season as our lowest point and we would've been in SERIOUS trouble if we haven't got NJ in. If we had gone down then they're would have been zero chance of getting Jones, and we would've probably slipped even further.
People saying 'just words' and 'actions matter' are correct. If we don't get players in early, have a professional and productive preseason that puts the club in the right place to sustain a credible promotion campaign, then you can bet Jones/the ownership will do something about it. Think the SMT definitely know that what has gone on before is unacceptable, they know it's not good enough for the fan base and the owners and ultimately their own positions. Jones is no mug, neither are the owners. None of them would've signed up for this (Jones' reputation has already taken a battering from Stoke/Southampton) if they didn't believe in the club and the journey we need to go on.
I don't doubt that Methvan, Scott, Warwick and Rodwell want Charlton to be successful.
I don't doubt Sandgaard and Duchatelet wanted the same, although perhaps for different reasons.
Just as Holden and Appleton hoped and expected to be successful with us and Jones wanted to be a hit with Stoke and Southampton.
But wanting success and achieving it are very different things.
So far the UK directors haven't delivered any degree of improvement.
Yes, they inherited a mess but their contribution so far hasn't improved matters, on the pitch at least.
The line now is that the communication is better which I read as the US owners are keeping a much closer eye on what is going on and how their money is being spent.
It seems money is going to be being spent but a lot of the "legacy" issues are from the last two windows so to some degree are down to Scott, no matter how it is spun.
Methven said himself that he didn’t want to be involved in the day to day running of the club, that he realised that it wasn’t one of his strengths, that’s why Scott is here, to run the footballing side. Yes, it will take a while to turn the club around but 3 managers and the lowest finish since 1926 is a woeful performance. We could not buy a win towards the end of Appleton’s reign. We looked certain to go down. We’re led to believe the owners personally intervened with the recruitment of Jones, and just before that Scott failed to secure a deal to keep one of our better players and club captain at the club. A player that Jones seems to rate highly. It’s rubbish to say we offered Dobbo what he wanted, if they’d done that he would’ve signed, the fans are not stupid. A utterly miserable first full season in charge, littered with bad decisions but Scott has to own it, he’s in charge, we can’t make excuses for him. We hear messages from the SMT via posters here that they are learning, that’s worrying when we were told the SMT were supposed to be the professional option after Sandgaard’s family thinking it was like playing FIFA. But despite the calamitous season Scott is still here, explaining how he’s still involved in player decisions. Other clubs wouldn’t have been so accommodating, he would’ve been fired long ago.
Methven has a terrible record of involvement in football, we were warned about this, everything he touches seems to turn to crap, and he is still here too. If Jones is to achieve anything next season I think it will be in despite of these two. Jones has in the past been guilty of accepting jobs where the odds were stacked against him succeeding (Stoke and Southampton). I sincerely hope he hasn’t done the same with Charlton.
a fair chunk of our shitshow of a season is having to deal with the train wreck left to them by multiple irresponsible and incompetent previous owners. Cuts to budgets and staffing and pruning of the scouting network by successive regimes (Chapple left because Roland Rat ignored him and listened to poxy Mowgli and NightMeire) meant we had to slip into the merky waters of damaged goods with injury records/players on the way down long before Scott arrived.
Both those incompetent owners managed to do better than this lot have so far. In what is a remarkably weak league this year, this team have overseen our worst season in 98 years. How do you take over from such 'incompetent' owners and manage to do worse than them?
I agree that Dutchatelet cut every department to the bone - but let's not forget that it was Sandgaard left to pick up the pieces. He reinvested into the infrastructure, particularly in rebuilding the medical and coaching departments and redeveloped the training ground (in the failed attempt to gain category one status). Before him, I think the player's gym was in a tent. He still finished higher up the league than this gang.
So he inherited far worse, and yet did better. This current SMT have walked into a club with a more stable infrastructure and yet managed to perform worse than both Sandgaard and Dutchatelet.
Think the playing squad alone was a train wreck inherited that hamstrung us. Legacy contracts we had to/couldn't shift and/or had to loan out the majority of (Kirk/McGrandles x2 loans/DJ x2 loans/Payne/Fraser/O'Connell etc). Sandgaard bought the portercabins from Reading, but allegedly didn't get enough coaches and support staff to gain Cat 1 (the whole politics of not wanting to give a L1 club Cat 1 status is another debate). Then they're was the culture (or lack thereof) that was documented with allegations of bullying and constructive dismissals etc.
Certain parts of the fanbase have said numerous times that they would accept (almost welcome) relegation to aid the removal of whatever Mickey Mouse operation was currently doing us wrong and not looking after the club with the correct amount of care, attention and support. It is possible to judge last season as our lowest point and we would've been in SERIOUS trouble if we haven't got NJ in. If we had gone down then they're would have been zero chance of getting Jones, and we would've probably slipped even further.
People saying 'just words' and 'actions matter' are correct. If we don't get players in early, have a professional and productive preseason that puts the club in the right place to sustain a credible promotion campaign, then you can bet Jones/the ownership will do something about it. Think the SMT definitely know that what has gone on before is unacceptable, they know it's not good enough for the fan base and the owners and ultimately their own positions. Jones is no mug, neither are the owners. None of them would've signed up for this (Jones' reputation has already taken a battering from Stoke/Southampton) if they didn't believe in the club and the journey we need to go on.
I agree in parts, but some of those 'legacy contract' players you have listed as not good enough were actually first-team players under previous owners, and we still finished higher. We actually managed to build a team that was worse.
Looking back, 95% of this forum saw the problems when they were happening. Firstly it was when the window closed and the squad built by Mr. Scott was clearly not strong enough to compete at the top, and secondly, it was appointing Michael Appleton, which only Mr. Scott seemed to think was a good idea. Nothing hamstrung us more than those two things, IMO.
I think we'll do a lot better next year, but they can't blame previous owners for the disaster of this season.
I don't doubt that Methvan, Scott, Warwick and Rodwell want Charlton to be successful.
I don't doubt Sandgaard and Duchatelet wanted the same, although perhaps for different reasons.
Just as Holden and Appleton hoped and expected to be successful with us and Jones wanted to be a hit with Stoke and Southampton.
But wanting success and achieving it are very different things.
So far the UK directors haven't delivered any degree of improvement.
Yes, they inherited a mess but their contribution so far hasn't improved matters, on the pitch at least.
The line now is that the communication is better which I read as the US owners are keeping a much closer eye on what is going on and how their money is being spent.
It seems money is going to be being spent but a lot of the "legacy" issues are from the last two windows so to some degree are down to Scott, no matter how it is spun.
More than happy for the owners to keep a closer eye on what's going on. Hoping lessons have been learnt and they get their act together. Failure to get us to the top of the table will deservedly warrant the pitch forks and flaming torches.
We all want us to be successful, we all want to have the amazing scenes we enjoyed via Powell and Bowyer. We all need to get behind everyone involved, with Jones in charge we now have the best chance of enjoying similar scenes to 2011 and 2019.
I don't doubt that Methvan, Scott, Warwick and Rodwell want Charlton to be successful.
I don't doubt Sandgaard and Duchatelet wanted the same, although perhaps for different reasons.
Just as Holden and Appleton hoped and expected to be successful with us and Jones wanted to be a hit with Stoke and Southampton.
But wanting success and achieving it are very different things.
So far the UK directors haven't delivered any degree of improvement.
Yes, they inherited a mess but their contribution so far hasn't improved matters, on the pitch at least.
The line now is that the communication is better which I read as the US owners are keeping a much closer eye on what is going on and how their money is being spent.
It seems money is going to be being spent but a lot of the "legacy" issues are from the last two windows so to some degree are down to Scott, no matter how it is spun.
More than happy for the owners to keep a closer eye on what's going on. Hoping lessons have been learnt and they get their act together. Failure to get us to the top of the table will deservedly warrant the pitch forks and flaming torches.
We all want us to be successful, we all want to have the amazing scenes we enjoyed via Powell and Bowyer. We all need to get behind everyone involved, with Jones in charge we now have the best chance of enjoying similar scenes to 2011 and 2019.
But "getting behind" them shouldn't mean turning a blind eye to their failings and mistakes.
I don't doubt that Methvan, Scott, Warwick and Rodwell want Charlton to be successful.
I don't doubt Sandgaard and Duchatelet wanted the same, although perhaps for different reasons.
Just as Holden and Appleton hoped and expected to be successful with us and Jones wanted to be a hit with Stoke and Southampton.
But wanting success and achieving it are very different things.
So far the UK directors haven't delivered any degree of improvement.
Yes, they inherited a mess but their contribution so far hasn't improved matters, on the pitch at least.
The line now is that the communication is better which I read as the US owners are keeping a much closer eye on what is going on and how their money is being spent.
It seems money is going to be being spent but a lot of the "legacy" issues are from the last two windows so to some degree are down to Scott, no matter how it is spun.
More than happy for the owners to keep a closer eye on what's going on. Hoping lessons have been learnt and they get their act together. Failure to get us to the top of the table will deservedly warrant the pitch forks and flaming torches.
We all want us to be successful, we all want to have the amazing scenes we enjoyed via Powell and Bowyer. We all need to get behind everyone involved, with Jones in charge we now have the best chance of enjoying similar scenes to 2011 and 2019.
But "getting behind" them shouldn't mean turning a blind eye to their failings and mistakes.
No one turning a blind eye, it's well documented we've just had our lowest finish and how badly we underperformed and the embarrassment we have become. Hopefully, the increased focus by the ownership and Jones' appointment (and probable expectations/clauses) means this is the SMT's last chance. If the recruitment and team are not successful then you'd like to think Jones/ownership will step in.
Methven said himself that he didn’t want to be involved in the day to day running of the club, that he realised that it wasn’t one of his strengths, that’s why Scott is here, to run the footballing side. Yes, it will take a while to turn the club around but 3 managers and the lowest finish since 1926 is a woeful performance. We could not buy a win towards the end of Appleton’s reign. We looked certain to go down. We’re led to believe the owners personally intervened with the recruitment of Jones, and just before that Scott failed to secure a deal to keep one of our better players and club captain at the club. A player that Jones seems to rate highly. It’s rubbish to say we offered Dobbo what he wanted, if they’d done that he would’ve signed, the fans are not stupid. A utterly miserable first full season in charge, littered with bad decisions but Scott has to own it, he’s in charge, we can’t make excuses for him. We hear messages from the SMT via posters here that they are learning, that’s worrying when we were told the SMT were supposed to be the professional option after Sandgaard’s family thinking it was like playing FIFA. But despite the calamitous season Scott is still here, explaining how he’s still involved in player decisions. Other clubs wouldn’t have been so accommodating, he would’ve been fired long ago.
Methven has a terrible record of involvement in football, we were warned about this, everything he touches seems to turn to crap, and he is still here too. If Jones is to achieve anything next season I think it will be in despite of these two. Jones has in the past been guilty of accepting jobs where the odds were stacked against him succeeding (Stoke and Southampton). I sincerely hope he hasn’t done the same with Charlton.
a fair chunk of our shitshow of a season is having to deal with the train wreck left to them by multiple irresponsible and incompetent previous owners. Cuts to budgets and staffing and pruning of the scouting network by successive regimes (Chapple left because Roland Rat ignored him and listened to poxy Mowgli and NightMeire) meant we had to slip into the merky waters of damaged goods with injury records/players on the way down long before Scott arrived.
Both those incompetent owners managed to do better than this lot have so far. In what is a remarkably weak league this year, this team have overseen our worst season in 98 years. How do you take over from such 'incompetent' owners and manage to do worse than them?
I agree that Dutchatelet cut every department to the bone - but let's not forget that it was Sandgaard left to pick up the pieces. He reinvested into the infrastructure, particularly in rebuilding the medical and coaching departments and redeveloped the training ground (in the failed attempt to gain category one status). Before him, I think the player's gym was in a tent. He still finished higher up the league than this gang.
So he inherited far worse, and yet did better. This current SMT have walked into a club with a more stable infrastructure and yet managed to perform worse than both Sandgaard and Dutchatelet.
Think the playing squad alone was a train wreck inherited that hamstrung us. Legacy contracts we had to/couldn't shift and/or had to loan out the majority of (Kirk/McGrandles x2 loans/DJ x2 loans/Payne/Fraser/O'Connell etc). Sandgaard bought the portercabins from Reading, but allegedly didn't get enough coaches and support staff to gain Cat 1 (the whole politics of not wanting to give a L1 club Cat 1 status is another debate). Then they're was the culture (or lack thereof) that was documented with allegations of bullying and constructive dismissals etc.
Certain parts of the fanbase have said numerous times that they would accept (almost welcome) relegation to aid the removal of whatever Mickey Mouse operation was currently doing us wrong and not looking after the club with the correct amount of care, attention and support. It is possible to judge last season as our lowest point and we would've been in SERIOUS trouble if we haven't got NJ in. If we had gone down then they're would have been zero chance of getting Jones, and we would've probably slipped even further.
People saying 'just words' and 'actions matter' are correct. If we don't get players in early, have a professional and productive preseason that puts the club in the right place to sustain a credible promotion campaign, then you can bet Jones/the ownership will do something about it. Think the SMT definitely know that what has gone on before is unacceptable, they know it's not good enough for the fan base and the owners and ultimately their own positions. Jones is no mug, neither are the owners. None of them would've signed up for this (Jones' reputation has already taken a battering from Stoke/Southampton) if they didn't believe in the club and the journey we need to go on.
I agree in parts, but some of those 'legacy contract' players you have listed as not good enough were actually first-team players under previous owners, and we still finished higher. We actually managed to build a team that was worse.
Looking back, 95% of this forum saw the problems when they were happening. Firstly it was when the window closed and the squad built by Mr. Scott was clearly not strong enough to compete at the top, and secondly, it was appointing Michael Appleton, which only Mr. Scott seemed to think was a good idea. Nothing hamstrung us more than those two things, IMO.
I think we'll do a lot better next year, but they can't blame previous owners for the disaster of this season.
The responsibility for last season's failure is collective, not individual. Not for one moment do I believe the only person at the club to interview and be impressed by Appleton was Scott.
Scott didn't "promise" top six either. Think we'd have heard alot more about that if he had! When he joined he said they wouldn't be making claims as to where we would be and by when. Top six was the aim, and one the SMT, players, and owners collectively failed to achieve. Big difference, but if he's said too much before and is quieter now, then we can see he is learning from past mistakes 😉
Edit -And if responsibility can be landed at one person's door, then the infrastructure must be wrong that makes that possible.
Methven said himself that he didn’t want to be involved in the day to day running of the club, that he realised that it wasn’t one of his strengths, that’s why Scott is here, to run the footballing side. Yes, it will take a while to turn the club around but 3 managers and the lowest finish since 1926 is a woeful performance. We could not buy a win towards the end of Appleton’s reign. We looked certain to go down. We’re led to believe the owners personally intervened with the recruitment of Jones, and just before that Scott failed to secure a deal to keep one of our better players and club captain at the club. A player that Jones seems to rate highly. It’s rubbish to say we offered Dobbo what he wanted, if they’d done that he would’ve signed, the fans are not stupid. A utterly miserable first full season in charge, littered with bad decisions but Scott has to own it, he’s in charge, we can’t make excuses for him. We hear messages from the SMT via posters here that they are learning, that’s worrying when we were told the SMT were supposed to be the professional option after Sandgaard’s family thinking it was like playing FIFA. But despite the calamitous season Scott is still here, explaining how he’s still involved in player decisions. Other clubs wouldn’t have been so accommodating, he would’ve been fired long ago.
Methven has a terrible record of involvement in football, we were warned about this, everything he touches seems to turn to crap, and he is still here too. If Jones is to achieve anything next season I think it will be in despite of these two. Jones has in the past been guilty of accepting jobs where the odds were stacked against him succeeding (Stoke and Southampton). I sincerely hope he hasn’t done the same with Charlton.
a fair chunk of our shitshow of a season is having to deal with the train wreck left to them by multiple irresponsible and incompetent previous owners. Cuts to budgets and staffing and pruning of the scouting network by successive regimes (Chapple left because Roland Rat ignored him and listened to poxy Mowgli and NightMeire) meant we had to slip into the merky waters of damaged goods with injury records/players on the way down long before Scott arrived.
Both those incompetent owners managed to do better than this lot have so far. In what is a remarkably weak league this year, this team have overseen our worst season in 98 years. How do you take over from such 'incompetent' owners and manage to do worse than them?
I agree that Dutchatelet cut every department to the bone - but let's not forget that it was Sandgaard left to pick up the pieces. He reinvested into the infrastructure, particularly in rebuilding the medical and coaching departments and redeveloped the training ground (in the failed attempt to gain category one status). Before him, I think the player's gym was in a tent. He still finished higher up the league than this gang.
So he inherited far worse, and yet did better. This current SMT have walked into a club with a more stable infrastructure and yet managed to perform worse than both Sandgaard and Dutchatelet.
Think the playing squad alone was a train wreck inherited that hamstrung us. Legacy contracts we had to/couldn't shift and/or had to loan out the majority of (Kirk/McGrandles x2 loans/DJ x2 loans/Payne/Fraser/O'Connell etc). Sandgaard bought the portercabins from Reading, but allegedly didn't get enough coaches and support staff to gain Cat 1 (the whole politics of not wanting to give a L1 club Cat 1 status is another debate). Then they're was the culture (or lack thereof) that was documented with allegations of bullying and constructive dismissals etc.
Certain parts of the fanbase have said numerous times that they would accept (almost welcome) relegation to aid the removal of whatever Mickey Mouse operation was currently doing us wrong and not looking after the club with the correct amount of care, attention and support. It is possible to judge last season as our lowest point and we would've been in SERIOUS trouble if we haven't got NJ in. If we had gone down then they're would have been zero chance of getting Jones, and we would've probably slipped even further.
People saying 'just words' and 'actions matter' are correct. If we don't get players in early, have a professional and productive preseason that puts the club in the right place to sustain a credible promotion campaign, then you can bet Jones/the ownership will do something about it. Think the SMT definitely know that what has gone on before is unacceptable, they know it's not good enough for the fan base and the owners and ultimately their own positions. Jones is no mug, neither are the owners. None of them would've signed up for this (Jones' reputation has already taken a battering from Stoke/Southampton) if they didn't believe in the club and the journey we need to go on.
I agree in parts, but some of those 'legacy contract' players you have listed as not good enough were actually first-team players under previous owners, and we still finished higher. We actually managed to build a team that was worse.
Looking back, 95% of this forum saw the problems when they were happening. Firstly it was when the window closed and the squad built by Mr. Scott was clearly not strong enough to compete at the top, and secondly, it was appointing Michael Appleton, which only Mr. Scott seemed to think was a good idea. Nothing hamstrung us more than those two things, IMO.
I think we'll do a lot better next year, but they can't blame previous owners for the disaster of this season.
The responsibility for last season's failure is collective, not individual. Not for one moment do I believe the only person at the club to interview and be impressed by Appleton was Scott.
Scott didn't "promise" top six either. Think we'd have heard alot more about that if he had! When he joined he said they wouldn't be making claims as to where we would be and by when. Top six was the aim, and one the SMT, players, and owners collectively failed to achieve. Big difference, but if he's said too much before and is quieter now, then we can see he is learning from past mistakes 😉
Edit -And if responsibility can be landed at one person's door, then the infrastructure must be wrong that makes that possible.
I'm pretty sure Scott said that the squad was good enough for top six at a minimum? Or something along those lines
We obviously don't know who chose Appleton for sure, but according to Methven it was the footballing technical staff, i.e. Scott. It was also reported that the owners themselves got more involved in the next hiring.
Methven said himself that he didn’t want to be involved in the day to day running of the club, that he realised that it wasn’t one of his strengths, that’s why Scott is here, to run the footballing side. Yes, it will take a while to turn the club around but 3 managers and the lowest finish since 1926 is a woeful performance. We could not buy a win towards the end of Appleton’s reign. We looked certain to go down. We’re led to believe the owners personally intervened with the recruitment of Jones, and just before that Scott failed to secure a deal to keep one of our better players and club captain at the club. A player that Jones seems to rate highly. It’s rubbish to say we offered Dobbo what he wanted, if they’d done that he would’ve signed, the fans are not stupid. A utterly miserable first full season in charge, littered with bad decisions but Scott has to own it, he’s in charge, we can’t make excuses for him. We hear messages from the SMT via posters here that they are learning, that’s worrying when we were told the SMT were supposed to be the professional option after Sandgaard’s family thinking it was like playing FIFA. But despite the calamitous season Scott is still here, explaining how he’s still involved in player decisions. Other clubs wouldn’t have been so accommodating, he would’ve been fired long ago.
Methven has a terrible record of involvement in football, we were warned about this, everything he touches seems to turn to crap, and he is still here too. If Jones is to achieve anything next season I think it will be in despite of these two. Jones has in the past been guilty of accepting jobs where the odds were stacked against him succeeding (Stoke and Southampton). I sincerely hope he hasn’t done the same with Charlton.
a fair chunk of our shitshow of a season is having to deal with the train wreck left to them by multiple irresponsible and incompetent previous owners. Cuts to budgets and staffing and pruning of the scouting network by successive regimes (Chapple left because Roland Rat ignored him and listened to poxy Mowgli and NightMeire) meant we had to slip into the merky waters of damaged goods with injury records/players on the way down long before Scott arrived.
Both those incompetent owners managed to do better than this lot have so far. In what is a remarkably weak league this year, this team have overseen our worst season in 98 years. How do you take over from such 'incompetent' owners and manage to do worse than them?
I agree that Dutchatelet cut every department to the bone - but let's not forget that it was Sandgaard left to pick up the pieces. He reinvested into the infrastructure, particularly in rebuilding the medical and coaching departments and redeveloped the training ground (in the failed attempt to gain category one status). Before him, I think the player's gym was in a tent. He still finished higher up the league than this gang.
So he inherited far worse, and yet did better. This current SMT have walked into a club with a more stable infrastructure and yet managed to perform worse than both Sandgaard and Dutchatelet.
Think the playing squad alone was a train wreck inherited that hamstrung us. Legacy contracts we had to/couldn't shift and/or had to loan out the majority of (Kirk/McGrandles x2 loans/DJ x2 loans/Payne/Fraser/O'Connell etc). Sandgaard bought the portercabins from Reading, but allegedly didn't get enough coaches and support staff to gain Cat 1 (the whole politics of not wanting to give a L1 club Cat 1 status is another debate). Then they're was the culture (or lack thereof) that was documented with allegations of bullying and constructive dismissals etc.
Certain parts of the fanbase have said numerous times that they would accept (almost welcome) relegation to aid the removal of whatever Mickey Mouse operation was currently doing us wrong and not looking after the club with the correct amount of care, attention and support. It is possible to judge last season as our lowest point and we would've been in SERIOUS trouble if we haven't got NJ in. If we had gone down then they're would have been zero chance of getting Jones, and we would've probably slipped even further.
People saying 'just words' and 'actions matter' are correct. If we don't get players in early, have a professional and productive preseason that puts the club in the right place to sustain a credible promotion campaign, then you can bet Jones/the ownership will do something about it. Think the SMT definitely know that what has gone on before is unacceptable, they know it's not good enough for the fan base and the owners and ultimately their own positions. Jones is no mug, neither are the owners. None of them would've signed up for this (Jones' reputation has already taken a battering from Stoke/Southampton) if they didn't believe in the club and the journey we need to go on.
I agree in parts, but some of those 'legacy contract' players you have listed as not good enough were actually first-team players under previous owners, and we still finished higher. We actually managed to build a team that was worse.
Looking back, 95% of this forum saw the problems when they were happening. Firstly it was when the window closed and the squad built by Mr. Scott was clearly not strong enough to compete at the top, and secondly, it was appointing Michael Appleton, which only Mr. Scott seemed to think was a good idea. Nothing hamstrung us more than those two things, IMO.
I think we'll do a lot better next year, but they can't blame previous owners for the disaster of this season.
The responsibility for last season's failure is collective, not individual. Not for one moment do I believe the only person at the club to interview and be impressed by Appleton was Scott.
Scott didn't "promise" top six either. Think we'd have heard alot more about that if he had! When he joined he said they wouldn't be making claims as to where we would be and by when. Top six was the aim, and one the SMT, players, and owners collectively failed to achieve. Big difference, but if he's said too much before and is quieter now, then we can see he is learning from past mistakes 😉
Edit -And if responsibility can be landed at one person's door, then the infrastructure must be wrong that makes that possible.
I'm pretty Scott said that the squad was good enough for top six at a minimum? Or something along those lines
We obviously don't know who chose Appleton for sure, but according to Methven it was the footballing technical staff, i.e. Scott. It was also reported that the owners themselves got more involved in the next hiring.
Yes, he did say that and it wasn't, but that's not what I understand to be a "promise" though.
Methven said himself that he didn’t want to be involved in the day to day running of the club, that he realised that it wasn’t one of his strengths, that’s why Scott is here, to run the footballing side. Yes, it will take a while to turn the club around but 3 managers and the lowest finish since 1926 is a woeful performance. We could not buy a win towards the end of Appleton’s reign. We looked certain to go down. We’re led to believe the owners personally intervened with the recruitment of Jones, and just before that Scott failed to secure a deal to keep one of our better players and club captain at the club. A player that Jones seems to rate highly. It’s rubbish to say we offered Dobbo what he wanted, if they’d done that he would’ve signed, the fans are not stupid. A utterly miserable first full season in charge, littered with bad decisions but Scott has to own it, he’s in charge, we can’t make excuses for him. We hear messages from the SMT via posters here that they are learning, that’s worrying when we were told the SMT were supposed to be the professional option after Sandgaard’s family thinking it was like playing FIFA. But despite the calamitous season Scott is still here, explaining how he’s still involved in player decisions. Other clubs wouldn’t have been so accommodating, he would’ve been fired long ago.
Methven has a terrible record of involvement in football, we were warned about this, everything he touches seems to turn to crap, and he is still here too. If Jones is to achieve anything next season I think it will be in despite of these two. Jones has in the past been guilty of accepting jobs where the odds were stacked against him succeeding (Stoke and Southampton). I sincerely hope he hasn’t done the same with Charlton.
a fair chunk of our shitshow of a season is having to deal with the train wreck left to them by multiple irresponsible and incompetent previous owners. Cuts to budgets and staffing and pruning of the scouting network by successive regimes (Chapple left because Roland Rat ignored him and listened to poxy Mowgli and NightMeire) meant we had to slip into the merky waters of damaged goods with injury records/players on the way down long before Scott arrived.
Both those incompetent owners managed to do better than this lot have so far. In what is a remarkably weak league this year, this team have overseen our worst season in 98 years. How do you take over from such 'incompetent' owners and manage to do worse than them?
I agree that Dutchatelet cut every department to the bone - but let's not forget that it was Sandgaard left to pick up the pieces. He reinvested into the infrastructure, particularly in rebuilding the medical and coaching departments and redeveloped the training ground (in the failed attempt to gain category one status). Before him, I think the player's gym was in a tent. He still finished higher up the league than this gang.
So he inherited far worse, and yet did better. This current SMT have walked into a club with a more stable infrastructure and yet managed to perform worse than both Sandgaard and Dutchatelet.
Think the playing squad alone was a train wreck inherited that hamstrung us. Legacy contracts we had to/couldn't shift and/or had to loan out the majority of (Kirk/McGrandles x2 loans/DJ x2 loans/Payne/Fraser/O'Connell etc). Sandgaard bought the portercabins from Reading, but allegedly didn't get enough coaches and support staff to gain Cat 1 (the whole politics of not wanting to give a L1 club Cat 1 status is another debate). Then they're was the culture (or lack thereof) that was documented with allegations of bullying and constructive dismissals etc.
Certain parts of the fanbase have said numerous times that they would accept (almost welcome) relegation to aid the removal of whatever Mickey Mouse operation was currently doing us wrong and not looking after the club with the correct amount of care, attention and support. It is possible to judge last season as our lowest point and we would've been in SERIOUS trouble if we haven't got NJ in. If we had gone down then they're would have been zero chance of getting Jones, and we would've probably slipped even further.
People saying 'just words' and 'actions matter' are correct. If we don't get players in early, have a professional and productive preseason that puts the club in the right place to sustain a credible promotion campaign, then you can bet Jones/the ownership will do something about it. Think the SMT definitely know that what has gone on before is unacceptable, they know it's not good enough for the fan base and the owners and ultimately their own positions. Jones is no mug, neither are the owners. None of them would've signed up for this (Jones' reputation has already taken a battering from Stoke/Southampton) if they didn't believe in the club and the journey we need to go on.
I agree in parts, but some of those 'legacy contract' players you have listed as not good enough were actually first-team players under previous owners, and we still finished higher. We actually managed to build a team that was worse.
Looking back, 95% of this forum saw the problems when they were happening. Firstly it was when the window closed and the squad built by Mr. Scott was clearly not strong enough to compete at the top, and secondly, it was appointing Michael Appleton, which only Mr. Scott seemed to think was a good idea. Nothing hamstrung us more than those two things, IMO.
I think we'll do a lot better next year, but they can't blame previous owners for the disaster of this season.
The responsibility for last season's failure is collective, not individual. Not for one moment do I believe the only person at the club to interview and be impressed by Appleton was Scott.
Scott didn't "promise" top six either. Think we'd have heard alot more about that if he had! When he joined he said they wouldn't be making claims as to where we would be and by when. Top six was the aim, and one the SMT, players, and owners collectively failed to achieve. Big difference, but if he's said too much before and is quieter now, then we can see he is learning from past mistakes 😉
Edit -And if responsibility can be landed at one person's door, then the infrastructure must be wrong that makes that possible.
I'm pretty Scott said that the squad was good enough for top six at a minimum? Or something along those lines
We obviously don't know who chose Appleton for sure, but according to Methven it was the footballing technical staff, i.e. Scott. It was also reported that the owners themselves got more involved in the next hiring.
Yes, he did say that and it wasn't, but that's not what I understand to be a "promise" though.
I'll admit to being a little confused because you initially had promise in quotation marks which made sense to me because obviously it wouldn't be a real "promise" anyway.
But the fact remains that he said the squad was good enough for top six and it was actually so bad that they had to practically redo it in January.
Methven said himself that he didn’t want to be involved in the day to day running of the club, that he realised that it wasn’t one of his strengths, that’s why Scott is here, to run the footballing side. Yes, it will take a while to turn the club around but 3 managers and the lowest finish since 1926 is a woeful performance. We could not buy a win towards the end of Appleton’s reign. We looked certain to go down. We’re led to believe the owners personally intervened with the recruitment of Jones, and just before that Scott failed to secure a deal to keep one of our better players and club captain at the club. A player that Jones seems to rate highly. It’s rubbish to say we offered Dobbo what he wanted, if they’d done that he would’ve signed, the fans are not stupid. A utterly miserable first full season in charge, littered with bad decisions but Scott has to own it, he’s in charge, we can’t make excuses for him. We hear messages from the SMT via posters here that they are learning, that’s worrying when we were told the SMT were supposed to be the professional option after Sandgaard’s family thinking it was like playing FIFA. But despite the calamitous season Scott is still here, explaining how he’s still involved in player decisions. Other clubs wouldn’t have been so accommodating, he would’ve been fired long ago.
Methven has a terrible record of involvement in football, we were warned about this, everything he touches seems to turn to crap, and he is still here too. If Jones is to achieve anything next season I think it will be in despite of these two. Jones has in the past been guilty of accepting jobs where the odds were stacked against him succeeding (Stoke and Southampton). I sincerely hope he hasn’t done the same with Charlton.
Round and round we go... Methven doesn't run the club, he apparently does some commercial/marketing work but has nothing to do with the day to day running of the football side or transfer related. He essentially had the contacts to network and speak to multi millionaires/billionaires which I don't think many of our fan base have access to. Apart from the Netflix documentary, where else has he had "a terrible record of involvement in football"?
Scott has been less than ideal, but a fair chunk of our shitshow of a season is having to deal with the train wreck left to them by multiple irresponsible and incompetent previous owners. Cuts to budgets and staffing and pruning of the scouting network by successive regimes (Chapple left because Roland Rat ignored him and listened to poxy Mowgli and NightMeire) meant we had to slip into the merky waters of damaged goods with injury records/players on the way down long before Scott arrived.
The 'not believing Scott let's the manager choose players' idea is also not quite right; they let Appleton have Fiorini and went after Coventry who Apples had prior knowledge of. Small and Ramsay were clearly NJ players, and he was backed and allowed to bring in Wickham and Lua Lua (no one says anything about Lua Lua who was clearly an NJ choice). If you're happy to blindly listen to Sunderland fans about Methven, then you probably can't just ignore Stoke fans criticisms of Jones and his tenure, playing style and transfer activity.
Nathan Jones is not the messiah, Scott and Methven are not evil incarnate. The bookies are usually pretty good for predictions and most had us preseason around the playoffs with the perceived quality of our squad at the time. How badly we underperformed is concerning but the season was overshadowed by Tommy boy not moving his guitars and sons black box/Xbox out fast enough, Holden (nice bloke to have a beer with) being ineffective, MA appointment (underwhelming but CV fitted what we were looking for - allegedly good with young players, play off squad experience), contract issues with key players where one refused to sign and another who felt sleighted and signed somewhere else. Plus we STILL have deadwood that needs hacking away.
We now have a top notch manager, we have investment into the club again, improved infrastructure/medical/sports science, evidence of backing regarding the transfer market and seemingly an actual plan to what we're trying to do.
The owners are not mugs, they and the SMT know that continued failure to produce results is not acceptable. This coming season should be exciting, we need to get past salmon coloured chinos and other distractions and support the team. That's not just the playing staff but everyone connected to the club, including the SMT to get us back where we belong and out of this crap league.
You can’t have it both ways. Methven is part of the owners board, and I can’t believe he doesn’t have considerable influence over the rest of the mainly non football background owners. So he either had a big say in the appointment of the managers and recruitment or is responsible for the hiring and firing of the people that do (the SMT including Andy Scott). The fact that Scott is still there shows the owners must still have confidence in him. Perhaps Methven wants him gone but has been overruled, but that seems unlikely. Ultimately they have confidence in a man that hired Appleton which along with sub standard recruitment resulted in the worst performance for nearly 100 years. Great! You’re right Methven doesn’t have a huge record in football, but even forgetting the embarrassing Netflix series, his involvement in Sunderland was a failure, this is a team which still had Premier League parachute payments yet couldn’t get out of League 1 until he left. So far, at the two clubs he’s been involved in he has a 100% record in crapness.
I’m really interested why you are so protective of these two, do you have some relationship to them? Surely as a Charlton you can’t be happy with their performance so far. Would you still defend them if this record continues?
Can I just say I'm in no way related to any of the people at Charlton, at least not that I know of, so I don't want that levelled that at me whenever I express an opinion at odds with most others.
Methven said himself that he didn’t want to be involved in the day to day running of the club, that he realised that it wasn’t one of his strengths, that’s why Scott is here, to run the footballing side. Yes, it will take a while to turn the club around but 3 managers and the lowest finish since 1926 is a woeful performance. We could not buy a win towards the end of Appleton’s reign. We looked certain to go down. We’re led to believe the owners personally intervened with the recruitment of Jones, and just before that Scott failed to secure a deal to keep one of our better players and club captain at the club. A player that Jones seems to rate highly. It’s rubbish to say we offered Dobbo what he wanted, if they’d done that he would’ve signed, the fans are not stupid. A utterly miserable first full season in charge, littered with bad decisions but Scott has to own it, he’s in charge, we can’t make excuses for him. We hear messages from the SMT via posters here that they are learning, that’s worrying when we were told the SMT were supposed to be the professional option after Sandgaard’s family thinking it was like playing FIFA. But despite the calamitous season Scott is still here, explaining how he’s still involved in player decisions. Other clubs wouldn’t have been so accommodating, he would’ve been fired long ago.
Methven has a terrible record of involvement in football, we were warned about this, everything he touches seems to turn to crap, and he is still here too. If Jones is to achieve anything next season I think it will be in despite of these two. Jones has in the past been guilty of accepting jobs where the odds were stacked against him succeeding (Stoke and Southampton). I sincerely hope he hasn’t done the same with Charlton.
Round and round we go... Methven doesn't run the club, he apparently does some commercial/marketing work but has nothing to do with the day to day running of the football side or transfer related. He essentially had the contacts to network and speak to multi millionaires/billionaires which I don't think many of our fan base have access to. Apart from the Netflix documentary, where else has he had "a terrible record of involvement in football"?
Scott has been less than ideal, but a fair chunk of our shitshow of a season is having to deal with the train wreck left to them by multiple irresponsible and incompetent previous owners. Cuts to budgets and staffing and pruning of the scouting network by successive regimes (Chapple left because Roland Rat ignored him and listened to poxy Mowgli and NightMeire) meant we had to slip into the merky waters of damaged goods with injury records/players on the way down long before Scott arrived.
The 'not believing Scott let's the manager choose players' idea is also not quite right; they let Appleton have Fiorini and went after Coventry who Apples had prior knowledge of. Small and Ramsay were clearly NJ players, and he was backed and allowed to bring in Wickham and Lua Lua (no one says anything about Lua Lua who was clearly an NJ choice). If you're happy to blindly listen to Sunderland fans about Methven, then you probably can't just ignore Stoke fans criticisms of Jones and his tenure, playing style and transfer activity.
Nathan Jones is not the messiah, Scott and Methven are not evil incarnate. The bookies are usually pretty good for predictions and most had us preseason around the playoffs with the perceived quality of our squad at the time. How badly we underperformed is concerning but the season was overshadowed by Tommy boy not moving his guitars and sons black box/Xbox out fast enough, Holden (nice bloke to have a beer with) being ineffective, MA appointment (underwhelming but CV fitted what we were looking for - allegedly good with young players, play off squad experience), contract issues with key players where one refused to sign and another who felt sleighted and signed somewhere else. Plus we STILL have deadwood that needs hacking away.
We now have a top notch manager, we have investment into the club again, improved infrastructure/medical/sports science, evidence of backing regarding the transfer market and seemingly an actual plan to what we're trying to do.
The owners are not mugs, they and the SMT know that continued failure to produce results is not acceptable. This coming season should be exciting, we need to get past salmon coloured chinos and other distractions and support the team. That's not just the playing staff but everyone connected to the club, including the SMT to get us back where we belong and out of this crap league.
You can’t have it both ways. Methven is part of the owners board, and I can’t believe he doesn’t have considerable influence over the rest of the mainly non football background owners. So he either had a big say in the appointment of the managers and recruitment or is responsible for the hiring and firing of the people that do (the SMT including Andy Scott). The fact that Scott is still there shows the owners must still have confidence in him. Perhaps Methven wants him gone but has been overruled, but that seems unlikely. Ultimately they have confidence in a man that hired Appleton which along with sub standard recruitment resulted in the worst performance for nearly 100 years. Great! You’re right Methven doesn’t have a huge record in football, but even forgetting the embarrassing Netflix series, his involvement in Sunderland was a failure, this is a team which still had Premier League parachute payments yet couldn’t get out of League 1 until he left. So far, at the two clubs he’s been involved in he has a 100% record in crapness.
I’m really interested why you are so protective of these two, do you have some relationship to them? Surely as a Charlton you can’t be happy with their performance so far. Would you still defend them if this record continues?
Not protective and zero knowledge of them other than what everyone else knows. Not happy with the current state of play of languishing in L1 and flirting with relegation. However, after years of mismanagement and under investment, we now have building blocks in place (NJ and Hart etc, performance director, sports science and medical appointments) to try to kick on. The only way we get any lower is L2 and oblivion, the ownership knows this, the fans know this and the SMT will know this. Failure to oversee a decent professional preseason with successful recruitment and preparation to go for a sustained and successful promotion campaign is when we get the pitch forks and flaming torches out. Alternatively, we somehow find another group of billionaires/multi multi millionaires to take the club off them.
They've had a year now, they have the manager they ultimately wanted, no 'bought the club too late', no terrible preseason leaving unfit/injured players. There are no more excuses for them.
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3 managers and 40 odd players later we finished in our lowest league position for 98 years.
This is on him.
Whenever he talks he never acknowledges his mistakes he just comes out with well rehearsed soundbites that gullible people like yourself fall for.
As I've said before I shall judge him on what he achieves and not on what he says.
At the moment I see very little to praise him for.
We know from Jan that the manger/ coach has plenty of input thanks to Appleton we got fiorini and helped bring in Coventry.
A utterly miserable first full season in charge, littered with bad decisions but Scott has to own it, he’s in charge, we can’t make excuses for him. We hear messages from the SMT via posters here that they are learning, that’s worrying when we were told the SMT were supposed to be the professional option after Sandgaard’s family thinking it was like playing FIFA. But despite the calamitous season Scott is still here, explaining how he’s still involved in player decisions. Other clubs wouldn’t have been so accommodating, he would’ve been fired long ago.
I am yet to see evidence that Scott provides sufficient expertise on the budget available.
1. it’s widely held that Scott, rather than Holden was in charge of “shaping” the squad for this last season. I don’t know whether that is actually true but I seem to recall him talking about all the lower level teams being schooled to play the same shape. On paper, or in the FAPL that may seem very sensible and strategic. I just think that at this level you have to be more pragmatic. That is certainly Curbs way. He would have kept CBT and would have done all he can to get JRS back. As he pointed out they contributed a large number of goals. So from a distance it looks like Scott having rather grand ideas about his role. Well his current title is quite grand, isn’t it, compared with his Forest one.
2. He comes across as someone who might be prone to over-estimating himself. He did say that he would be judged on his performance at the end of the season. He didnt need to say anything like that. Steve Gallen didn’t come out with such self-important guff. He’s made a rod for his own back.
Scott has been less than ideal, but a fair chunk of our shitshow of a season is having to deal with the train wreck left to them by multiple irresponsible and incompetent previous owners. Cuts to budgets and staffing and pruning of the scouting network by successive regimes (Chapple left because Roland Rat ignored him and listened to poxy Mowgli and NightMeire) meant we had to slip into the merky waters of damaged goods with injury records/players on the way down long before Scott arrived.
The 'not believing Scott let's the manager choose players' idea is also not quite right; they let Appleton have Fiorini and went after Coventry who Apples had prior knowledge of. Small and Ramsay were clearly NJ players, and he was backed and allowed to bring in Wickham and Lua Lua (no one says anything about Lua Lua who was clearly an NJ choice). If you're happy to blindly listen to Sunderland fans about Methven, then you probably can't just ignore Stoke fans criticisms of Jones and his tenure, playing style and transfer activity.
Nathan Jones is not the messiah, Scott and Methven are not evil incarnate. The bookies are usually pretty good for predictions and most had us preseason around the playoffs with the perceived quality of our squad at the time. How badly we underperformed is concerning but the season was overshadowed by Tommy boy not moving his guitars and sons black box/Xbox out fast enough, Holden (nice bloke to have a beer with) being ineffective, MA appointment (underwhelming but CV fitted what we were looking for - allegedly good with young players, play off squad experience), contract issues with key players where one refused to sign and another who felt sleighted and signed somewhere else. Plus we STILL have deadwood that needs hacking away.
We now have a top notch manager, we have investment into the club again, improved infrastructure/medical/sports science, evidence of backing regarding the transfer market and seemingly an actual plan to what we're trying to do.
The owners are not mugs, they and the SMT know that continued failure to produce results is not acceptable. This coming season should be exciting, we need to get past salmon coloured chinos and other distractions and support the team. That's not just the playing staff but everyone connected to the club, including the SMT to get us back where we belong and out of this crap league.
It does seem people won't be happy until Scott commits seppuku in front of the Covered End first game of the season...
I agree that Dutchatelet cut every department to the bone - but let's not forget that it was Sandgaard left to pick up the pieces. He reinvested into the infrastructure, particularly in rebuilding the medical and coaching departments and redeveloped the training ground (in the failed attempt to gain category one status). Before him, I think the player's gym was in a tent. He still finished higher up the league than this gang.
Certain parts of the fanbase have said numerous times that they would accept (almost welcome) relegation to aid the removal of whatever Mickey Mouse operation was currently doing us wrong and not looking after the club with the correct amount of care, attention and support. It is possible to judge last season as our lowest point and we would've been in SERIOUS trouble if we haven't got NJ in. If we had gone down then they're would have been zero chance of getting Jones, and we would've probably slipped even further.
People saying 'just words' and 'actions matter' are correct. If we don't get players in early, have a professional and productive preseason that puts the club in the right place to sustain a credible promotion campaign, then you can bet Jones/the ownership will do something about it. Think the SMT definitely know that what has gone on before is unacceptable, they know it's not good enough for the fan base and the owners and ultimately their own positions. Jones is no mug, neither are the owners. None of them would've signed up for this (Jones' reputation has already taken a battering from Stoke/Southampton) if they didn't believe in the club and the journey we need to go on.
I don't doubt Sandgaard and Duchatelet wanted the same, although perhaps for different reasons.
Just as Holden and Appleton hoped and expected to be successful with us and Jones wanted to be a hit with Stoke and Southampton.
But wanting success and achieving it are very different things.
So far the UK directors haven't delivered any degree of improvement.
Yes, they inherited a mess but their contribution so far hasn't improved matters, on the pitch at least.
The line now is that the communication is better which I read as the US owners are keeping a much closer eye on what is going on and how their money is being spent.
It seems money is going to be being spent but a lot of the "legacy" issues are from the last two windows so to some degree are down to Scott, no matter how it is spun.
Looking back, 95% of this forum saw the problems when they were happening. Firstly it was when the window closed and the squad built by Mr. Scott was clearly not strong enough to compete at the top, and secondly, it was appointing Michael Appleton, which only Mr. Scott seemed to think was a good idea. Nothing hamstrung us more than those two things, IMO.
I think we'll do a lot better next year, but they can't blame previous owners for the disaster of this season.
We all want us to be successful, we all want to have the amazing scenes we enjoyed via Powell and Bowyer. We all need to get behind everyone involved, with Jones in charge we now have the best chance of enjoying similar scenes to 2011 and 2019.
Scott didn't "promise" top six either. Think we'd have heard alot more about that if he had! When he joined he said they wouldn't be making claims as to where we would be and by when. Top six was the aim, and one the SMT, players, and owners collectively failed to achieve. Big difference, but if he's said too much before and is quieter now, then we can see he is learning from past mistakes 😉
Edit -And if responsibility can be landed at one person's door, then the infrastructure must be wrong that makes that possible.
We obviously don't know who chose Appleton for sure, but according to Methven it was the footballing technical staff, i.e. Scott. It was also reported that the owners themselves got more involved in the next hiring.
But the fact remains that he said the squad was good enough for top six and it was actually so bad that they had to practically redo it in January.
You’re right Methven doesn’t have a huge record in football, but even forgetting the embarrassing Netflix series, his involvement in Sunderland was a failure, this is a team which still had Premier League parachute payments yet couldn’t get out of League 1 until he left. So far, at the two clubs he’s been involved in he has a 100% record in crapness.
They've had a year now, they have the manager they ultimately wanted, no 'bought the club too late', no terrible preseason leaving unfit/injured players. There are no more excuses for them.