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Mason Burstow - progress at Chelsea (p47)

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  • No way Gomez would've signed for us without a release fee, i'm surprised he wasn't poached sooner.

    He played for our U18s at a stupidly young age (13 i think), had played for England's junior sides, and also part of the team that won the U17 Euro's. Any club in the country would've wanted him.
    Indeed. So have you never stopped to ask yourself why there was not a queue of other clubs indicating their interest via the usual media sources? Another Lifer, a good mate of mine, knows the answer but has never wanted to go public with it. Suffice to say that on this one, like the proverbial stopped clock, “Ronnie Moore” is, if not right on the money, not unadjacent to it. And that this is another entry in my list of evidence that agents are a malignant scourge that need radical reform and regulation. 
    If what’s being said is true, it sounds to me like the agent was doing exactly what he’s paid to do. What exactly would be wrong with that situation? 
    You'd have to ask Katrien Meire to fill in the bits Ronnie doesn't know about...
    It wouldn’t change my opinion that the agent did his best for his client, that’s his job. 

    The reality is, the player and agent had the club over a barrel, if the pitiful sell on was the best we could get, it’s significantly better than nothing, which would have been the result of the pair walking. 
    In any business, there are usually benchmarks available to assess whether a given deal is at the market rate, and has been conducted according to prevailing market conditions. If it is obviously not at the market rate, and/or the other circumstances surrounding it are unusual,(e.g lack of rival bidders) it always indicates that something stinks. In general terms there will be two reasons, gross incompetence, or corruption. 

    The really odd issue with the Gomez transfer is not so much the fee, but more that there was none of the usual buzz around the transaction from other clubs trying to muscle in. If you consider how much Gomez was already in the spotlight, with talk of FAPL scouts watching him long before the transaction, that is very odd indeed, surely you would concede that? 

    For the record I do not believe Meire or the Duchatelet regime in general was corrupt. 
  • JohnnyH2 said:
    colthe3rd said:
    Would it be fair to say VOTV hasn't exactly been huge fans of Sandgaard so far?
    You mean we have not seen Rick having a selfie with TS or singing to him in the Oak?

    I think VOTV has been very fair in the reporting of the TS and does see the bigger picture.  I find too many supporters are very over protective of TS and any hint of questioning decisions made are seen as anti TS
    Interesting you see my comments as being pro Sandgaard/anti VOTV. It's also interesting you see more people defending Sandgaard. I'd say it's quite equal those defending him and those criticising him and most of us (including myself sit somewhere in the middle). I was asking a question about an observation I've made recently. 
  • No way Gomez would've signed for us without a release fee, i'm surprised he wasn't poached sooner.

    He played for our U18s at a stupidly young age (13 i think), had played for England's junior sides, and also part of the team that won the U17 Euro's. Any club in the country would've wanted him.
    Indeed. So have you never stopped to ask yourself why there was not a queue of other clubs indicating their interest via the usual media sources? Another Lifer, a good mate of mine, knows the answer but has never wanted to go public with it. Suffice to say that on this one, like the proverbial stopped clock, “Ronnie Moore” is, if not right on the money, not unadjacent to it. And that this is another entry in my list of evidence that agents are a malignant scourge that need radical reform and regulation. 
    If what’s being said is true, it sounds to me like the agent was doing exactly what he’s paid to do. What exactly would be wrong with that situation? 
    You'd have to ask Katrien Meire to fill in the bits Ronnie doesn't know about...
    It wouldn’t change my opinion that the agent did his best for his client, that’s his job. 

    The reality is, the player and agent had the club over a barrel, if the pitiful sell on was the best we could get, it’s significantly better than nothing, which would have been the result of the pair walking. 
    In any business, there are usually benchmarks available to assess whether a given deal is at the market rate, and has been conducted according to prevailing market conditions. If it is obviously not at the market rate, and/or the other circumstances surrounding it are unusual,(e.g lack of rival bidders) it always indicates that something stinks. In general terms there will be two reasons, gross incompetence, or corruption. 

    The really odd issue with the Gomez transfer is not so much the fee, but more that there was none of the usual buzz around the transaction from other clubs trying to muscle in. If you consider how much Gomez was already in the spotlight, with talk of FAPL scouts watching him long before the transaction, that is very odd indeed, surely you would concede that? 

    For the record I do not believe Meire or the Duchatelet regime in general was corrupt. 
    But that only considers two of the possible out comes.  What actually happened against him being offered to the market.  Of those two we would have potentially got more in the latter. 

    There were multiple outcomes where we wouldn't have got as much as we did, there are also outcomes where we could have got nothing at all.

    If he hadn't signed the contract because he wanted to go to Liverpool his dad, and others, "encouraged" Liverpool to pay us a "fair" compensation fee, as happened with Jenkinson and Beadle, it would have been exactly the same end result.  With no talk of agents. 
  • No way Gomez would've signed for us without a release fee, i'm surprised he wasn't poached sooner.

    He played for our U18s at a stupidly young age (13 i think), had played for England's junior sides, and also part of the team that won the U17 Euro's. Any club in the country would've wanted him.
    Indeed. So have you never stopped to ask yourself why there was not a queue of other clubs indicating their interest via the usual media sources? Another Lifer, a good mate of mine, knows the answer but has never wanted to go public with it. Suffice to say that on this one, like the proverbial stopped clock, “Ronnie Moore” is, if not right on the money, not unadjacent to it. And that this is another entry in my list of evidence that agents are a malignant scourge that need radical reform and regulation. 
    If what’s being said is true, it sounds to me like the agent was doing exactly what he’s paid to do. What exactly would be wrong with that situation? 
    You'd have to ask Katrien Meire to fill in the bits Ronnie doesn't know about...
    It wouldn’t change my opinion that the agent did his best for his client, that’s his job. 

    The reality is, the player and agent had the club over a barrel, if the pitiful sell on was the best we could get, it’s significantly better than nothing, which would have been the result of the pair walking. 
    In any business, there are usually benchmarks available to assess whether a given deal is at the market rate, and has been conducted according to prevailing market conditions. If it is obviously not at the market rate, and/or the other circumstances surrounding it are unusual,(e.g lack of rival bidders) it always indicates that something stinks. In general terms there will be two reasons, gross incompetence, or corruption. 

    The really odd issue with the Gomez transfer is not so much the fee, but more that there was none of the usual buzz around the transaction from other clubs trying to muscle in. If you consider how much Gomez was already in the spotlight, with talk of FAPL scouts watching him long before the transaction, that is very odd indeed, surely you would concede that? 

    For the record I do not believe Meire or the Duchatelet regime in general was corrupt. 
    Why would any other club get involved they knew (which they would) that Gomez had his heart set on Liverpool? 

    As for benchmarks, of course they exist and it’s the job of both sides to try and beat those benchmarks in their favour, sadly CAFC failed in a huge way to do that. That might be down to incompetence, or it might be down to accepting a 3.7m or so release clause was the best we would ever get. 
  • colthe3rd said:
    JohnnyH2 said:
    colthe3rd said:
    Would it be fair to say VOTV hasn't exactly been huge fans of Sandgaard so far?
    You mean we have not seen Rick having a selfie with TS or singing to him in the Oak?

    I think VOTV has been very fair in the reporting of the TS and does see the bigger picture.  I find too many supporters are very over protective of TS and any hint of questioning decisions made are seen as anti TS
    Interesting you see my comments as being pro Sandgaard/anti VOTV. It's also interesting you see more people defending Sandgaard. I'd say it's quite equal those defending him and those criticising him and most of us (including myself sit somewhere in the middle). I was asking a question about an observation I've made recently. 
    Sorry you are correct for balance I should have put a handful of people on Twitter have been anti TS for quite a while.

    I don't see why VOTV should be huge fans of TS (or any supporter should be a huge fan of TS).  He is the owner, he will make decisions that are correct, some that are wrong.  VOTV I believe is calling it for what it currently is.
  • WSS said:
    Do people have any examples of any other League One strikers with so few appearances going for (a lot) more money?

    I'm not saying I'm happy with the fee but is it a case of "it is what it is"? And that's not even taking into account Mason's wishes and desires.
    I've been thinking about one such; Josh Maja from Sunderland. Quite a similar player in some ways, not quite as tall as Mason, perhaps not so good in the air. He left, in a January window for £1.7m, it was messy and much documented in the Netflix series. He was though one year older than Mason at the time, but then again, his talent had already been much in evidence. I remember that against us in the home game (1-1) he was quiet  for the first hour and then suddenly came to life and started to scare the shite out of me. Mason hasn't done that to other teams yet, at least not in L1. 

    However, Mason is back with us, so we will have the chance to test the fee; double-edged sword, that. If he continues to develop at his current rate, we are going to be very pissed off come the end of season...unless we feel there might be a chance to get him back again next season. If that happened I'd be a fair bit happier. 
    I think Maja was a long, long way ahead of Burstow at that stage. He'd scored 15 goals in 24 League One appearances and was only 21. He was also out of contract at the end of that season, which is why the fee was actually quite low for a player with those numbers. Maja still ended up that season as Sunderland's top goalscorer despite leaving in January. There's also a big difference in that he was Sunderland's best player and number one striker. The fee they got for him didn't allow them to go out and replace like with like; they ended up signing Will Grigg for at least £3m and he has to date 8 Sunderland goals in 61 appearances. Burstow was our 4th choice striker, behind Washington, Aneke and Stockley and we only really needed to replace him because of ongoing injury issues and the need for a big squad, and ultimately replaced him with him in the end thanks to the loan. In fact, the only reason we've seen Burstow this season outside of the Pizza Cup is because of injuries and the fact Davison failed his audition so badly.
  • Some good balanced posts. This is becoming a worrying theme of late!
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  • JohnnyH2 said:
    colthe3rd said:
    JohnnyH2 said:
    colthe3rd said:
    Would it be fair to say VOTV hasn't exactly been huge fans of Sandgaard so far?
    You mean we have not seen Rick having a selfie with TS or singing to him in the Oak?

    I think VOTV has been very fair in the reporting of the TS and does see the bigger picture.  I find too many supporters are very over protective of TS and any hint of questioning decisions made are seen as anti TS
    Interesting you see my comments as being pro Sandgaard/anti VOTV. It's also interesting you see more people defending Sandgaard. I'd say it's quite equal those defending him and those criticising him and most of us (including myself sit somewhere in the middle). I was asking a question about an observation I've made recently. 
    Sorry you are correct for balance I should have put a handful of people on Twitter have been anti TS for quite a while.

    I don't see why VOTV should be huge fans of TS (or any supporter should be a huge fan of TS).  He is the owner, he will make decisions that are correct, some that are wrong.  VOTV I believe is calling it for what it currently is.
    Fair point on not being a huge supporter.

    On calling it for what it currently is, I'm not so sure. The tweet seemed to indicate that it wasn't a great deal, I'd say by putting 1.6m out there it was intended to gain the reaction on twitter that it did. It's also interesting that the tweet stated "plus standard contingent add-ons and sell-on" yet Airman on here has said Chelsea dismissed the chunky sell on claims and hasn't heard what they are from Charlton. So wouldn't it have been more accurate/balanced to say £1.6m up front plus add ons that we don't yet know what they are?
  • When was the last time Charlton did well on a sell on fee clause? 
  • So like the Bonne deal we arguably did a Chelsea (but on a lesser scale) by spending a little and making a (quick) profit.

    In this case it makes absolute financial sense for the club, but we allowed ourselves to get carried away thinking an unproven striker could be worth a lot of money already. Instead we decided to bank the money now rather than carry the risk his form (and value drops) or gets injured etc.

    We will always have to sell until we get promoted.
  • shirty5 said:
    When was the last time Charlton did well on a sell on fee clause? 
    KAG? 
  • colthe3rd said:
    Would it be fair to say VOTV hasn't exactly been huge fans of Sandgaard so far?
    It would be fair to say the VOTV is die hard Charlton and track record is that it rarely calls it wrong.
    Why are people getting so defensive over a question being asked? 
  • colthe3rd said:
    Would it be fair to say VOTV hasn't exactly been huge fans of Sandgaard so far?
    No I don't think it fair to say.

    On the whole VOTV has taken a balanced view along with questioning certain events which is a healthy thing to do considering our owners over the last 10 years.  
  • Charlie Mcdonald scored on his CAFC debut, I then presumed he was gonna be the bollox.
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  • I know this is the wrong place for positive spin right now but I'll give it a go anyway. Mason's contract was starting to tick down and there was a log jam of players (possibly better players) in the youth set up with no pathway to the first team and no inclination to sign their first contracts. The deal wasn't amazing in itself but it seems to have enabled lots of other positives and that needs to be factored into the equation.
    Face it Santa, Kanu & co will be going the same way next year or the year after.

    That's a hell of a lot better than seeing them leave without kicking a ball for the first team and if we're lucky earning Charlton a derisory amount of compensation.

    If the new model for the club is to get our young stars to sign 2-3 year contracts and then fast track them into the first team with an eye to a quick sale I can live with that.

    It's not ideal and you'd hope that some of the youngsters stay longer and others are sold for far more than Burstow but something had to change.
    Yeh, I agree with what you are saying. I'm just in cynical mode.
    When Tommy mentioned "silly money" I didn't realise he was being silly.
  • shirty5 said:
    When was the last time Charlton did well on a sell on fee clause? 
    Lookman?
  • I’m not against Thomas Sandgaard, but not everything is black and white. I’ve reported what I’ve been told about the fee and have reason to think is true, having spoken to multiple people this week. I’m very confident that the coverage of the transfer in the new issue is fair to all sides based on the information I have.

    I don’t support the owner, I support Charlton, and I’d say he’s done some good things and some daft ones.I’m currently pretty sceptical he will get us out of this division in the next two years, but things can change. So can opinions.
    Your last para pretty much sums it up for me, but would add that getting out of this league in the next two years for most clubs and whoever the owner is, isn't as easy or straight forward as some would like it to be.
    What we seem to now have is stability, and that alone won't get you promoted but it does provide the foundations on which to build. Success is going to take longer than many anticipated when TS came on the scene, to which his comments didn't help, but in reality that was always likely to be the case.
    As you said, like me you support Charlton not the owner and that will be the same for the vast majority of us. Owners like players come and go but left behind is a team to support. Sometimes we just have to be more patient, a virtue some of us find hard to find.
  • Maybe our management team don't rate him as highly as they have said publicly and feel 1.6 m is a good deal. A few goals will catch the headlines, but his all round game is very rough and a lot of the really high valuations are based on the assumption he'll just continue on the meteoric trajectory he's started out on, no guarantees there. Worth bearing in mind someone like Davison also bagged a few goals in quick succession earlier in the season, but that soon stopped and his overall game proved not to be up to it. He's now on loan at Swindon.

    Time will tell on this one, I guess.
    Loving some of the spin on this. If Duchatelet had sold him for the same amount there would have been outrage. 
    Not from me there wouldn’t have been. I try to take these things on the merits of the evidence I see, I don’t make my assessments based on how I feel about the personalities involved. This is real life, not Football Manager, and the club has to have income as well as outgoings in order to survive. 

    I have no idea if £1.6m is a good deal, but I do know that it’s way too early to tell for sure if Burstow is the real deal or a flash in the pan. Footballers careers can turn on a sixpence and there are lots and lots of players on the scrap who looked incredible at 18 and total crap by the time they were 24. Very hard for us fans to know which ones will make it and which ones be scrap. 

    I don’t follow other clubs that closely but I haven’t heard about many 18 year old strikers moving from League One for £5 to £10m like some seem to expect. 

    And ask yourself, if Burstow hadn’t scored for the first team yet, how excited would you be about him as a prospect? I wouldn’t be very excited at all because if you take away the goals he’s been pretty anonymous in a lot of his appearances. Not  tying to devalue the goals, just highlight the fact that he is miles by off being a rounded striker. I personally have my doubts that he’ll be able to keep the goal streak going because he seems to have been taking almost every chance he gets which no striker can sustain. Longer term with more development, maybe he will, but Chelsea are buying mostly potential and his relative lack of pedigree from non-league plus half a dozen league one games means that potential costs a lot less than buying the finished article or someone from, say, the Ajax academy. 

    If we wanted to get big bucks for him then we needed to turn down this bid and wait another 6 to 18 months until he’d scored 20 or 30
    goals to provide stronger evidence that he is the real deal. The fact we didn’t says to me either:

    a) Burstow pushed for the move now.
    b) We need the money more than is being let on.
    c) The club aren’t convinced he will push on from here, at least not immediately, and that it’d be a gamble to turn down this money because if he didn’t maintain the goalscoring we wouldn’t get an offer like this again soon. 

    So I’m not spinning anything (why would I, I have no reason take any side in this), I’m just speculating on what I see as the most likely logic behind the decisions made using the evidence I can see. I could, of course, be wrong too. 
  • I’m not against Thomas Sandgaard, but not everything is black and white. I’ve reported what I’ve been told about the fee and have reason to think is true, having spoken to multiple people this week. I’m very confident that the coverage of the transfer in the new issue is fair to all sides based on the information I have.

    I don’t support the owner, I support Charlton, and I’d say he’s done some good things and some daft ones. I’m currently pretty sceptical he will get us out of this division in the next two years, but things can change. So can opinions.
    Understandable, but to get us out of this division, we need a consistent and collective effort from Jacko to the playing squad. 

    Injuries, formations, subs, motivation, effort, set pieces, concentration during games are areas we need to work and improve heavily on, not just what TS is doing right/wrong.
  • shine166 said:
    Charlie Mcdonald scored on his CAFC debut, I then presumed he was gonna be the bollox.
    Did you know he is 40 now?  :/

    He's had a long career albeit in the lower reaches, but scored plenty of goals.  Netted 40 times for Brentford in 111 games around 2008- 2011.
  • I’m not against Thomas Sandgaard, but not everything is black and white. I’ve reported what I’ve been told about the fee and have reason to think is true, having spoken to multiple people this week. I’m very confident that the coverage of the transfer in the new issue is fair to all sides based on the information I have.

    I don’t support the owner, I support Charlton, and I’d say he’s done some good things and some daft ones.I’m currently pretty sceptical he will get us out of this division in the next two years, but things can change. So can opinions.
    To be fair, have you ever not been sceptical that we’ll be promoted from League One? 

    I can only speak for myself, but all of our promotions have seemingly come against the odds.
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