I was rewatching Sunderland Til I Die yesterday. Notable that when he was speaking to the psychologist they discussed how he had only performed at his best when he had a manager who encouraged him, due to his deep fear of failure. He is clearly a fragile soul.
Management is all about understanding what levers to pull for each individual. Not every person responds well to being challenged, some need an arm around the shoulder.
I'm not sure if Bowyer has the motivational dexterity to work with Johnny's type, or indeed the tactical dexterity to work with creative more free spirited maverick types.
It will be interesting to see how his relationship with Innis develops over time.
The question is how long do you give a player? JW has been at the club 2.5 years now and how many true moments of magic have we seen? Surely this is a two way street? Bow might be saying it's now your time to step up mate and give me something back!
The people starting to sharpen their knives for Bowyer are probably the same people who said Curbs ' had taken us as far as he could '. We have just started out on a long term club rebuild , some players won't be here next season so don't listen to any whinging from players that don't want to be here or have their own agendas
I was rewatching Sunderland Til I Die yesterday. Notable that when he was speaking to the psychologist they discussed how he had only performed at his best when he had a manager who encouraged him, due to his deep fear of failure. He is clearly a fragile soul.
Management is all about understanding what levers to pull for each individual. Not every person responds well to being challenged, some need an arm around the shoulder.
I'm not sure if Bowyer has the motivational dexterity to work with Johnny's type, or indeed the tactical dexterity to work with creative more free spirited maverick types.
It will be interesting to see how his relationship with Innis develops over time.
The question is how long do you give a player? JW has been at the club 2.5 years now and how many true moments of magic have we seen? Surely this is a two way street? Bow might be saying it's now your time to step up mate and give me something back!
I thought my anger would subside, but it is still pretty strong. Firstly, Williams is above League One level by a considerable margin. For some reason, Bowyer has got it in for him. It has been evident for a while and it looks to me like he is trying to get him to leave. Just like he did with Fosu.
He was off the pace when he came on, went down looking for free kicks which the ref saw and ignored and then bottled a tackle which could have been costly for us. Given Bowyer has already said he wants see more from him in training, I am not entirely surprised at him getting the hook although I agree it's a big step for a manager because it's a very public rebuke. You can't say 'in Bowyer we trust' every five minutes when it's going well and then start questioning whether he's up to it the minute it's not.
I agree that shouting "Bowyer out" over one or two incidents is daft. But there is nothing wrong with questioning an individual decision if you find it odd.
From what I have seen, he can play more than he is being played. He does tire, but the way he plays is very busy. If it is clear he can leave in January, I would expect a Championship team to sign him.
Williams starts for Wales. His coming on changed the Playoff final.
We're taking a skillful attacking mid, who relieves pressure on our defence (as shown at the weekend) and actually carries the ball up field. He takes markers away from our strikers and gives us an outlet We knew when we signed him that goals aren't his game. We also knew, he wasn't there to be a midfield enforcer. If you're starting both Pratley and Watson, you need a player that can actually attack a space- you already have two midfield enforcers to do the dirty work.
Whilst I usually agree with Grapevine's posts, I find the obsession with stats from both his post and many others to be quite strange. Football is about far more than stats, as the majority of our fanbase were saying when Duchatelet and Driesen attempted to replicate Moneyball with our signings.
For me its a simple equation, do we look better with Williams than without him? Would I rather he was starting for our opposition than us? The answer to both of those questions is no.
The people starting to sharpen their knives for Bowyer are probably the same people who said Curbs ' had taken us as far as he could '. We have just started out on a long term club rebuild , some players won't be here next season so don't listen to any whinging from players that don't want to be here or have their own agendas
This.
Some have very very short memories and I’m quite frankly embarrassed by it.
The people starting to sharpen their knives for Bowyer are probably the same people who said Curbs ' had taken us as far as he could '. We have just started out on a long term club rebuild , some players won't be here next season so don't listen to any whinging from players that don't want to be here or have their own agendas
I admit I've been a bit out of touch with the club this season, not keeping up with much more than fixtures, results and general headline news. So maybe I am missing something. But I delved into this one when I saw this thread, and saw some of the Twitter comments and such. And fuck me was it depressing.
The more time I have spent at other clubs (non-league mainly) the more I realise that as much as every club has an identity, there really isn't much difference between many of us. What I like to think makes us different to many clubs is patience, loyalty, self-awareness, a great community aspect, a way of doing things. We started to lose that after Curbs left, and when I saw what was being said about Bowyer, my heart truly sank. I don't identify with many Charlton supporters, it seems.
From what I can tell, he's overreacted on this one, and it's one of the few times his inexperience as a manager has drawn some attention. I hope that's all it is. We have a lot to be thankful for from that man, and it's hard to imagine there's anyone (at least realistically) that would be able to do a better job. I hope that he learns from this. He deserves the benefit of the doubt.
If Williams is above L1 level why is he not capable of playing a full game at L1 level and why has no club tried to sign him?
How often does he even play well at L1 level? I don't understand these "He's way above this level" comments at all. Based on what? Not how he plays
Fair comment. Yes he changed the play off final and has shown some glimpses of undoubted Championship quality, but they are far outweighed by performances offering very little.
Williams starts for Wales. His coming on changed the Playoff final.
We're taking a skillful attacking mid, who relieves pressure on our defence (as shown at the weekend) and actually carries the ball up field. He takes markers away from our strikers and gives us an outlet We knew when we signed him that goals aren't his game. We also knew, he wasn't there to be a midfield enforcer. If you're starting both Pratley and Watson, you need a player that can actually attack a space- you already have two midfield enforcers to do the dirty work.
Whilst I usually agree with Grapevine's posts, I find the obsession with stats from both his post and many others to be quite strange. Football is about far more than stats, as the majority of our fanbase were saying when Duchatelet and Driesen attempted to replicate Moneyball with our signings.
For me its a simple equation, do we look better with Williams than without him? Would I rather he was starting for our opposition than us? The answer to both of those questions is no.
I think stats are very important, but reading beyond them is even more important.
Williams starts for Wales. His coming on changed the Playoff final.
We're going all the way back to the play-off final
How many times since then has Williams actually been allowed to play his game? As many have alluded to, Bowyer has history trying to shoehorn skilfull players into roles that do not suit their games, and then criticising them publicly for it
Williams starts for Wales. His coming on changed the Playoff final.
We're going all the way back to the play-off final
How many times since then has Williams actually been allowed to play his game? As many have alluded to, Bowyer has history trying to shoehorn skilfull players into roles that do not suit their games, and then criticising them publicly for it
What position was he playing in the final? I seem to remember him dribbling down the left.
Williams has to take responsibility, I don't know why our fans wrap him up in wool and say nothing is his fault like doting mothers. Even if he is playing out of position (and it's not like he's playing right-back) then you would expect him to at least show quality in moments where he finds himself up the pitch with the ball.
Quote from one of the first team players this morning.
"Bowyer has f****** lost it"
Would like to know if they meant gone batshit for the mistakes or actually lost it?
He can't expect perfection every game from his players, just as we should not expect it from him and the players.
Lost it as in, 'the plot'. I can also add "that tactics are non existence"
Im sorry havent read past this point to see what others have said or whats been expanded on but if this is even true whatever first team player is saying this hasnt been here long at all or showed even a tiny bit as much loyalty or passion as bowyer has along with the fact bowyer has worked miracles since the very first time he came in with us
hes given us many many great times over the recent past with playoffs and wembley and sticking with us throughout the rubbish with ownership who knows what wld have happened had he left!! and i know whos side i pick over what is no doubt a player throwing his toys out the pram describing him because of something he doesnt like about bowyer when things have got a little tuff lately no doubt them and there agent are bigtime charlies thinking there something special like a few we have had lately
Quote from one of the first team players this morning.
"Bowyer has f****** lost it"
Would like to know if they meant gone batshit for the mistakes or actually lost it?
He can't expect perfection every game from his players, just as we should not expect it from him and the players.
Lost it as in, 'the plot'. I can also add "that tactics are non existence"
Im sorry havent read past this point to see what others have said or whats been expanded on but if this is even true whatever first team player is saying this hasnt been here long at all or showed even a tiny bit as much loyalty or passion as bowyer has along with the fact bowyer has worked miracles since the very first time he came in with us
hes given us many many great times over the recent past with playoffs and wembley and sticking with us throughout the rubbish with ownership who knows what wld have happened had he left!! and i know whos side i pick over what is no doubt a player throwing his toys out the pram describing him because of something he doesnt like about bowyer when things have got a little tuff lately no doubt them and there agent are bigtime charlies thinking there something special like a few we have had lately
I can assure you it's true. And the player has been here a while.
Regarding the quote that Bowyer has lost it, leaves me thinking and wondering what was the agenda here, what sort of quote was it, are we talking of a players revolt, a personal opinion, what was the point or aim in raising this in the first place. Maybe if a players collective, are they trying to get the fans to take it up and expand the possible rumor in the hope of getting their word out there while not actually owning the situation. Just seems a bit strange, and i do believe it is true, which is sad for the club.
Wonder if we won't see Jackson speaking to the press after Saturday's game
Jacko should do it every game that Bowyer sees red mist.
Post match interviews come pretty soon after the final whistle. Managers are stressed, tense and wound-up, especially if the performance has been poor. The media are hungry for their story ..... but perhaps from the upset manager's point of view, his interview should wait until the next day after he's had time to sleep on it?
Bowyer is not coming across well at the moment after games. Perhaps best somebody else does it?
It is quite normal for players to do this when things are getting tougher. Firstly, there will be players who feel they can't say anything when things are going well, you can't keep them all happy, but a few bad results make it easier. It is also quite possible that Bowyer is pissing off a few new ones and this is not good at all.
I think somebody senior could put their hand on his shoulder and help him get back on track, but I am not sure he has that or would even be receptive to it. The problem Thomas has is if this issue is not addressed, it will affect morale and of course results.
There are people saying wait until the end of January, but we are still well placed for promotion now. We may not be if we wait. Thomas has a lot of money in this and will surely be more proactive rather than wait for a growing crack to potentially turn into a chasm. Bowyer needs to sort this out now and accept the blame for his part in it. He is the same person he was and he needs to get back into that space or sadly go if he can't.
Williams is ranked 16th by CL members on the stats, in a CAFC team which most agree aren't playing that well. It's not good for a player apparently too good for L1 and should be in The Championship.
It is quite normal for players to do this when things are getting tougher. Firstly, there will be players who feel they can't say anything when things are going well, you can't keep them all happy, but a few bad results make it easier. It is also quite possible that Bowyer is pissing off a few new ones and this is not good at all.
I think somebody senior could put their hand on his shoulder and help him get back on track, but I am not sure he has that or would even be receptive to it. The problem Thomas has is if this issue is not addressed, it will affect morale and of course results.
There are people saying wait until the end of January, but we are still well placed for promotion now. We may not be if we wait. Thomas has a lot of money in this and will surely be more proactive rather than wait for a growing crack to potentially turn into a chasm. Bowyer needs to sort this out now and accept the blame for his part in it. He is the same person he was and he needs to get back into that space or sadly go if he can't.
So you say "we are well placed for promotion now" and yet you want to sack Bowyer. Give me strength. I'm out.
We are a big side in a shit league. Bowyer is showing signs of losing it and acting in a way by singling out players for public criticism that will lose you the dressing room. This needs sorting out to increase our chances of getting promotion.
I am not saying sack him, I am saying he needs to sort this out urgently or be sacked. We are in league One FFS! Do you actually watch and understand how shit this league actually is?
Maybe some of us think more can be got out of a player of his ability.
If he can perform well on the international stage, then he should be capable of performing well at Third Division level. And credit due, there's been plenty of times when he has.
Last year, when Williams was allowed his run of games at Championship level, he was a key player in our terrific start to the season. To me, if it could be done last season, it seems madness now not to set up to get the best out of this player.
We are a big side in a shit league. Bowyer is showing signs of losing it and acting in a way by singling out players for public criticism that will lose you the dressing room. This needs sorting out to increase our chances of getting promotion.
I am not saying sack him, I am saying he needs to sort this out urgently or be sacked. We are in league One FFS! Do you actually watch and understand how shit this league actually is?
We were 48 hours from administration less than 3 months ago and rescued with the transfer window about to close. We were damn lucky that Bow, Jacko and Steve G stuck with us through all the shit that went before. Get real FFS.
Comments
We're taking a skillful attacking mid, who relieves pressure on our defence (as shown at the weekend) and actually carries the ball up field. He takes markers away from our strikers and gives us an outlet We knew when we signed him that goals aren't his game. We also knew, he wasn't there to be a midfield enforcer. If you're starting both Pratley and Watson, you need a player that can actually attack a space- you already have two midfield enforcers to do the dirty work.
Whilst I usually agree with Grapevine's posts, I find the obsession with stats from both his post and many others to be quite strange. Football is about far more than stats, as the majority of our fanbase were saying when Duchatelet and Driesen attempted to replicate Moneyball with our signings.
For me its a simple equation, do we look better with Williams than without him? Would I rather he was starting for our opposition than us? The answer to both of those questions is no.
Some have very very short memories and I’m quite frankly embarrassed by it.
The more time I have spent at other clubs (non-league mainly) the more I realise that as much as every club has an identity, there really isn't much difference between many of us. What I like to think makes us different to many clubs is patience, loyalty, self-awareness, a great community aspect, a way of doing things. We started to lose that after Curbs left, and when I saw what was being said about Bowyer, my heart truly sank. I don't identify with many Charlton supporters, it seems.
From what I can tell, he's overreacted on this one, and it's one of the few times his inexperience as a manager has drawn some attention. I hope that's all it is. We have a lot to be thankful for from that man, and it's hard to imagine there's anyone (at least realistically) that would be able to do a better job. I hope that he learns from this. He deserves the benefit of the doubt.
Williams has to take responsibility, I don't know why our fans wrap him up in wool and say nothing is his fault like doting mothers. Even if he is playing out of position (and it's not like he's playing right-back) then you would expect him to at least show quality in moments where he finds himself up the pitch with the ball.
hes given us many many great times over the recent past with playoffs and wembley and sticking with us throughout the rubbish with ownership who knows what wld have happened had he left!! and i know whos side i pick over what is no doubt a player throwing his toys out the pram describing him because of something he doesnt like about bowyer when things have got a little tuff lately
no doubt them and there agent are bigtime charlies thinking there something special like a few we have had lately
wondering what was the agenda here, what sort of quote was it, are
we talking of a players revolt, a personal opinion, what was the point
or aim in raising this in the first place.
Maybe if a players collective, are they trying to get the fans to take it up
and expand the possible rumor in the hope of getting their word out there
while not actually owning the situation.
Just seems a bit strange, and i do believe it is true, which is sad for the club.
Jacko should do it every game that Bowyer sees red mist.
Post match interviews come pretty soon after the final whistle. Managers are stressed, tense and wound-up, especially if the performance has been poor.
The media are hungry for their story ..... but perhaps from the upset manager's point of view, his interview should wait until the next day after he's had time to sleep on it?
Bowyer is not coming across well at the moment after games.
Perhaps best somebody else does it?
I think somebody senior could put their hand on his shoulder and help him get back on track, but I am not sure he has that or would even be receptive to it. The problem Thomas has is if this issue is not addressed, it will affect morale and of course results.
There are people saying wait until the end of January, but we are still well placed for promotion now. We may not be if we wait. Thomas has a lot of money in this and will surely be more proactive rather than wait for a growing crack to potentially turn into a chasm. Bowyer needs to sort this out now and accept the blame for his part in it. He is the same person he was and he needs to get back into that space or sadly go if he can't.
It's not good for a player apparently too good for L1 and should be in The Championship.
He was ranked 7th out of 11 for the Pompey game.
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/90580/statbank-shrewsbury-1-1-charlton#latest
Give me strength.
I'm out.
I am not saying sack him, I am saying he needs to sort this out urgently or be sacked. We are in league One FFS! Do you actually watch and understand how shit this league actually is?
And credit due, there's been plenty of times when he has.
Last year, when Williams was allowed his run of games at Championship level, he was a key player in our terrific start to the season.
To me, if it could be done last season, it seems madness now not to set up to get the best out of this player.
We were damn lucky that Bow, Jacko and Steve G stuck with us through all the shit that went before.
Get real FFS.