If you pull out of a tackle in a Sunday League game that's not acceptable in my book, particularly when most of your teammates are working their nuts off for the cause. Pulling out of a tackle as a professional is inexcusable. I'm not talking about 50/50 bone crushers - I'm talking about standard tackles that he shirks.
Fact is that Williams has not been at it all season, and he wasn't exactly great last season either. Yes he wins free kicks, but he flatters to deceive most of the time.
To say "tackling isn't his game" is complete horseshit. But let's go with that and say it isn't. So just what IS his game - scoring goals? No. Getting assists? No. What then? The best that's been offered here is winning free kicks that lead to goals. Really? Who's been scoring these free kicks then?
If I'm playing right back and he bottles a tackle in front of me then I'm livid and would be screaming at the manager to get him off.
The team is more important than one blokes feelings. Was it harsh? Probably. Did he deserve it? Probably.
You honestly feel he deserved to be publicly humiliated? I cannot actually remember the challenge, but let's assume it happened, I have no issues with Bowyer slamming him behind closed doors. But to do like he did was plain wrong, just as it was when he said a load of crap in the week.
If making a change is for the benefit of the team then I wouldn't care if he felt humiliated or not. If he shirks one challenge then who's to say he isn't going to shirk more?
One players feelings don't trump the team collective.
We were shit, shit shit, don't call out JW or AM, it's your tactics for 12months why we are in this mess
What "mess"?
Genuinely not having a pop, but we have been a shit show for years now and finally when we manage to cobble a squad together in two weeks people have suddenly turned on the manager after a few bad results.
It's fair to say performances haven't been spectacular - even when we were on the winning run - but seriously, the last few years have surely taught is that we are in no way in a "mess" right now.
Come on fellas, get some perspective. If this type of things carries on then by all means go mental. But people throwing their toys out the pram now is surely the type of self-entitled behaviour we laugh at the likes of Spurs and Arsenal fans displaying.
Maybe I'm just more patient than the average fan. Maybe Russell Slade had more of an impact on me than I thought.
The mess I'd say we are in mate is probably since Hull away (and before that Derby Home) we've been shit.
Yes, 100% injuries played a part in a dreadful run to lockdown and I support that young inexperienced side with judases around the squad completely.
We come back from lockdown and get a couple of good results but we were dire, absolute dire and a team of players (that IMO were good enough to stay up and would have under experienced manager)
Brum got one point in their last 7 games to keep them up (or something like that).
We don't attack sides, we are better player for player but don't know what to do if we can't make the opposition play the way we want them to play.
Anyone can check through my posts in my supptot for Bow's and the team the past 2/3 years but I've lost faith, honestly I'd listen to Bows talk all day, watch any programme he's on but what we are churning up right now is dreadful IMO.
There is no leadership, even though we should have 3 on that pitch.
Pratley was a better player without experienced pros around him last season so what's the difference this season?
That's not my job that's Bows to work out and for the last 10 games we have looked anything but a promotion side.
I agree with a lot of that mate.
I keep telling anyone who will listen that I can't remember seeing a "good game" since football started again after lockdown. But that's not just us, it's across the board.
Bizarrely the best "game" - for a neutral - I can remember was against Burton where we actually created some chances, missed them and then handed the game to them with some shocking mistakes.
All I'm saying is that surely after all the crap that's happened we just need some stability now?
This constant digging out of people does nobody any good.
As Williams chose to trigger the contract extension after relegation, would he be using a large chunk of our wage budget? Looks to me like Bowyer didn’t want him to stay, Williams chose to stay and now Bowyer wouldn’t mind getting rid in January to free up wages for a player he wants.
I have no idea how much JW is on, but I would bet its considerably more than 2.5k a week, or what ever the average is. If he goes in January could you bring in a better player on 2.5k a week?
Highly unlikely imo
But could we bring in a more effective player? Someone fitter and not so injury prone?
We definitely could. Some of our fans seem to accept that players can only play for 60 mins. It's been going on for so long they think it's normal. It's not.
If you pull out of a tackle in a Sunday League game that's not acceptable in my book, particularly when most of your teammates are working their nuts off for the cause. Pulling out of a tackle as a professional is inexcusable. I'm not talking about 50/50 bone crushers - I'm talking about standard tackles that he shirks.
Fact is that Williams has not been at it all season, and he wasn't exactly great last season either. Yes he wins free kicks, but he flatters to deceive most of the time.
To say "tackling isn't his game" is complete horseshit. But let's go with that and say it isn't. So just what IS his game - scoring goals? No. Getting assists? No. What then? The best that's been offered here is winning free kicks that lead to goals. Really? Who's been scoring these free kicks then?
If I'm playing right back and he bottles a tackle in front of me then I'm livid and would be screaming at the manager to get him off.
The team is more important than one blokes feelings. Was it harsh? Probably. Did he deserve it? Probably.
Williams jumped out of the tackle (jumped in the air to avoid having to tackle) which some seconds later resulted in Shrewsbury very nearly scoring, the keystone cops bit where the ball hit the bar & Morgan fell over. I find the reactions on here quite strange.
If we are at home to let's say Millwall next season and one of our lightweight players bottles a tackle I'm presuming the majority will be just as understanding.
If you pull out of a tackle in a Sunday League game that's not acceptable in my book, particularly when most of your teammates are working their nuts off for the cause. Pulling out of a tackle as a professional is inexcusable. I'm not talking about 50/50 bone crushers - I'm talking about standard tackles that he shirks.
Fact is that Williams has not been at it all season, and he wasn't exactly great last season either. Yes he wins free kicks, but he flatters to deceive most of the time.
To say "tackling isn't his game" is complete horseshit. But let's go with that and say it isn't. So just what IS his game - scoring goals? No. Getting assists? No. What then? The best that's been offered here is winning free kicks that lead to goals. Really? Who's been scoring these free kicks then?
If I'm playing right back and he bottles a tackle in front of me then I'm livid and would be screaming at the manager to get him off.
The team is more important than one blokes feelings. Was it harsh? Probably. Did he deserve it? Probably.
You honestly feel he deserved to be publicly humiliated? I cannot actually remember the challenge, but let's assume it happened, I have no issues with Bowyer slamming him behind closed doors. But to do like he did was plain wrong, just as it was when he said a load of crap in the week.
Perhaps if you look at the challenge he bottled you may have a different opinion? I'm not sure about him being subbed, but if he's been told to toughen up, to try and play football and to stop constantly throwing himself to the floor, then ok Bowyer blew his top and probably shouldn't have.
Bowyer's got more patience than me, because I got sick & tired of all the theatrics about a year ago.
Seems like Johnny is a popular player in the dressing room, his mates aren’t going to be impressed with Bowyer treating him this way. Also has a history of publicly hanging players out to dry.... Bonne, Morgan another two that spring to mind. Losing the dressing room is a real possibility imo.
If you pull out of a tackle in a Sunday League game that's not acceptable in my book, particularly when most of your teammates are working their nuts off for the cause. Pulling out of a tackle as a professional is inexcusable. I'm not talking about 50/50 bone crushers - I'm talking about standard tackles that he shirks.
Fact is that Williams has not been at it all season, and he wasn't exactly great last season either. Yes he wins free kicks, but he flatters to deceive most of the time.
To say "tackling isn't his game" is complete horseshit. But let's go with that and say it isn't. So just what IS his game - scoring goals? No. Getting assists? No. What then? The best that's been offered here is winning free kicks that lead to goals. Really? Who's been scoring these free kicks then?
If I'm playing right back and he bottles a tackle in front of me then I'm livid and would be screaming at the manager to get him off.
The team is more important than one blokes feelings. Was it harsh? Probably. Did he deserve it? Probably.
You honestly feel he deserved to be publicly humiliated? I cannot actually remember the challenge, but let's assume it happened, I have no issues with Bowyer slamming him behind closed doors. But to do like he did was plain wrong, just as it was when he said a load of crap in the week.
Perhaps if you look at the challenge he bottled you may have a different opinion? I'm not sure about him being subbed, but if he's been told to toughen up, to try and play football and to stop constantly throwing himself to the floor, then ok Bowyer blew his top and probably shouldn't have.
Bowyer's got more patience than me, because I got sick & tired of all the theatrics about a year ago.
No I wouldn't.
Several players were pretty crap yesterday, I don't understand why Williams was dug out. What about Gunter giving away the penalty, I haven't seen Bowyer having a pop at him. Subbing him for it was OTT, so was publicly digging him out. Bowyer has made some baffling and disrespectful remarks recently, this isn't a one time issue.
As Williams chose to trigger the contract extension after relegation, would he be using a large chunk of our wage budget? Looks to me like Bowyer didn’t want him to stay, Williams chose to stay and now Bowyer wouldn’t mind getting rid in January to free up wages for a player he wants.
I have no idea how much JW is on, but I would bet its considerably more than 2.5k a week, or what ever the average is. If he goes in January could you bring in a better player on 2.5k a week?
Highly unlikely imo
But could we bring in a more effective player? Someone fitter and not so injury prone?
We definitely could. Some of our fans seem to accept that players can only play for 60 mins. It's been going on for so long they think it's normal. It's not.
And that's part of the problem. With the exception of Albie, who has never played for anyone else, they all have until they rock up in SE7.
I might be wrong but when Robinson was here JFC seemed to be able manage back to back 90 minutes. Chuks did for mk dons, Williams even does for Wales now.
In the last 18 months have we had a single player that hasn't had a "months not weeks" injury? It can't be that the play flat out because Stevie Wonder could see they dont, or haven't for the last year.
The only conclusion possible is that they are either over trained or all on the fags, booze and junk food. Because they ALL look knackered before we even kick off, then proceed to run through treacle for 60 minutes, then get subbed.
As Williams chose to trigger the contract extension after relegation, would he be using a large chunk of our wage budget? Looks to me like Bowyer didn’t want him to stay, Williams chose to stay and now Bowyer wouldn’t mind getting rid in January to free up wages for a player he wants.
I have no idea how much JW is on, but I would bet its considerably more than 2.5k a week, or what ever the average is. If he goes in January could you bring in a better player on 2.5k a week?
Highly unlikely imo
Dunno, you could argue that Scott Fraser's style was very similar on Wednesday night... Would pick up the ball and run with it, sometimes drawing a free kick but always looking to make a Albie Morgan style pass so had more end product to him - Trouble is he's only just joined MK Dons so doubt he'd move so soon, thankfully joined after the Salary Cap so wont be above it either, the other issue is we only saw one performance where he was on his game, how often is he not at that level
But Fraser was playing further forward than Williams is normally allowed to do with us. He can certainly do everything Fraser was doing, including, when playing for Wales, scoring goals.(I'm no excusing his poor defensive work though, btw).
Fraser looked good Wednesday because for whatever reason we failed to adjust to deal with him. I'm always wary though of getting a thing about players based on one good game they had against us. I think you might be old enough to remember Ronnie Moore and Tony Towner. In 1984 under the useless Ken Craggs we played Rotherham at the Valley. Towner and Moore absolutely tore us up, it was 4-1 but could have been 8. We eventually signed both of them (we all chipped in to buy Moore). He was so-so, but Tony Towner was absolutely feckin' useless.
Nah both before my time, in '84 I was too busy shitting, eating and crying
Although no different to 2020 really
Oh sorry mate, take it as a compliment to the maturity beyond your years that you bring to topics like this :-)
Anyway, it was actually 1-5. And Rotherham were little better than mid-table.
Rotherham got relegated that season (with Bolton and Burnley).
Well I have to say reading many of these comments on this board over the past 24hrs I have lost total respect for many contributors. This team is never, ever, ever about any one player. IT IS ABOUT THE TEAM. As a team member YOU DO THE JOB YOU ARE ASKED TO DO. This fallacy that any player who has skill on the ball is absolved of all responsibility "off the ball" is 50yrs out of date.
In todays world if you cannot do the job then you do not stay on the pitch.
I like Williams but he has locked himself into a perverse mind set. To quote his job for Wales he describes as " to carry the ball up field and win fouls for Gareth and others to exploit.
If you were undertaking a player interview for attacking midfield player with Williams I imagine it will go something like this.
So Jonny as an attacking midfield player could you tell me how many goals you have scored?
Well I don't score a lot of goals I tend to focus on the creative side. (1 goal in 57 appearances)
On the creative side could you tell me what is your range and accuracy of passing
Well I don't always focus on passing the ball a lot these days. I tend to carry and dribble the ball. Its very exciting. The fans love it.
Could you then share just how many goal assists you have recorded when focusing on the creative side?
Well I am still working on that because I do get fouled a lot (6 assists in 57 appearances - the last assist 19.10.2019)
Could you tell me with your dribbling skills how many penalties you have won over the season?
Well I do not normally get that far up field - but I am very good at winning fouls in non threatening areas.
Jonny do you remember that coaching session when you were 12yrs old when the PE teacher gave the best dribbler in the team the ball on the halfway line and then had 4 team mates positioned from the halfway line to the penalty area at 10yards intervals. He then asked the best dribbler to dribble the ball from the half way line while his 4 team mates were asked to pass the ball through to the penalty area? Do you remember which ball arrived quicker in the penalty area?
No I must have been off sick that day.
OK well how would you define your defensive skills in working for the team? Well I am very mobile, pretty quick and work really very hard in running around a lot. Did I mention I was very good at winning fouls?
I repeat I like Williams. He is mobile, quite quick, has excellent technical ability but by comparison his end product IS woeful. In training I would give him a bonus for every first time pass which hit its target (2 touch should be the norm) and fine him for every third, fourth, fifth touch out side of a 25yard line from the opponents goal line. He is built for pass and move. No bugger should get near him but Claus Jensen really?
What do you not understand? With the best will in the world he can never be relied upon as a mainstay contributor because he is made of glass. In nearly 2 calendar years he has completed 90 mins just 7 times. You simply cannot rely on him getting through one game within the current schedule let alone see him as a mainstay regular contributor. Yesterday he was called on to do a job WITH AND WITHOUT the ball. Did he do the job? No he bloody didn't.
The message could not be simpler. Twinkle toes must twinkle has its uses in VERY limited circumstances. In every aspect of his demeanour he is a team player. He just needs to realign what that means in delivering to the same concept when he is on the field. His injury travails likely mean he may never move beyond the periphery of any team but he has to seize every opportunity. He didn't. In the new world of the salary cap I genuinely fear for his future in the professional game.
I wish him all the very best but he simply has to offer more.
@Grapevine49 I think you’ve missed the point of a lot of posts. I’ve not seen many posters defending Williams because of his ability, more so that Bowyers reaction was OTT.
I think you’ve just come across as a patronising tit in that post to be honest.
Well I have to say reading many of these comments on this board over the past 24hrs I have lost total respect for many contributors. This team is never, ever, ever about any one player. IT IS ABOUT THE TEAM. As a team member YOU DO THE JOB YOU ARE ASKED TO DO. This fallacy that any player who has skill on the ball is absolved of all responsibility "off the ball" is 50yrs out of date.
In todays world if you cannot do the job then you do not stay on the pitch.
I like Williams but he has locked himself into a perverse mind set. To quote his job for Wales he describes as " to carry the ball up field and win fouls for Gareth and others to exploit.
If you were undertaking a player interview for attacking midfield player with Williams I imagine it will go something like this.
So Jonny as an attacking midfield player could you tell me how many goals you have scored?
Well I don't score a lot of goals I tend to focus on the creative side. (1 goal in 57 appearances)
On the creative side could you tell me what is your range and accuracy of passing
Well I don't always focus on passing the ball a lot these days. I tend to carry and dribble the ball. Its very exciting. The fans love it.
Could you then share just how many goal assists you have recorded when focusing on the creative side?
Well I am still working on that because I do get fouled a lot (6 assists in 57 appearances - the last assist 19.10.2019)
Could you tell me with your dribbling skills how many penalties you have won over the season?
Well I do not normally get that far up field - but I am very good at winning fouls in non threatening areas.
Jonny do you remember that coaching session when you were 12yrs old when the PE teacher gave the best dribbler in the team the ball on the halfway line and then had 4 team mates positioned from the halfway line to the penalty area at 10yards intervals. He then asked the best dribbler to dribble the ball from the half way line while his 4 team mates were asked to pass the ball through to the penalty area? Do you remember which ball arrived quicker in the penalty area?
No I must have been off sick that day.
OK well how would you define your defensive skills in working for the team? Well I am very mobile, pretty quick and work really very hard in running around a lot. Did I mention I was very good at winning fouls?
I repeat I like Williams. He is mobile, quite quick, has excellent technical ability but by comparison his end product IS woeful. In training I would give him a bonus for every first time pass which hit its target (2 touch should be the norm) and fine him for every third, fourth, fifth touch out side of a 25yard line from the opponents goal line. He is built for pass and move. No bugger should get near him but Claus Jensen really?
What do you not understand? With the best will in the world he can never be relied upon as a mainstay contributor because he is made of glass. In nearly 2 calendar years he has completed 90 mins just 7 times. You simply cannot rely on him getting through one game within the current schedule let alone see him as a mainstay regular contributor. Yesterday he was called on to do a job WITH AND WITHOUT the ball. Did he do the job? No he bloody didn't.
The message could not be simpler. Twinkle toes must twinkle has its uses in VERY limited circumstances. In every aspect of his demeanour he is a team player. He just needs to realign what that means in delivering to the same concept when he is on the field. His injury travails likely mean he may never move beyond the periphery of any team but he has to seize every opportunity. He didn't. In the new world of the salary cap I genuinely fear for his future in the professional game.
I wish him all the very best but he simply has to offer more.
What a complete garbage post. If you’re going to waste my time please try and do it a little quicker and save the essay.
Well I have to say reading many of these comments on this board over the past 24hrs I have lost total respect for many contributors. This team is never, ever, ever about any one player. IT IS ABOUT THE TEAM. As a team member YOU DO THE JOB YOU ARE ASKED TO DO. This fallacy that any player who has skill on the ball is absolved of all responsibility "off the ball" is 50yrs out of date.
In todays world if you cannot do the job then you do not stay on the pitch.
I like Williams but he has locked himself into a perverse mind set. To quote his job for Wales he describes as " to carry the ball up field and win fouls for Gareth and others to exploit.
If you were undertaking a player interview for attacking midfield player with Williams I imagine it will go something like this.
So Jonny as an attacking midfield player could you tell me how many goals you have scored?
Well I don't score a lot of goals I tend to focus on the creative side. (1 goal in 57 appearances)
On the creative side could you tell me what is your range and accuracy of passing
Well I don't always focus on passing the ball a lot these days. I tend to carry and dribble the ball. Its very exciting. The fans love it.
Could you then share just how many goal assists you have recorded when focusing on the creative side?
Well I am still working on that because I do get fouled a lot (6 assists in 57 appearances - the last assist 19.10.2019)
Could you tell me with your dribbling skills how many penalties you have won over the season?
Well I do not normally get that far up field - but I am very good at winning fouls in non threatening areas.
Jonny do you remember that coaching session when you were 12yrs old when the PE teacher gave the best dribbler in the team the ball on the halfway line and then had 4 team mates positioned from the halfway line to the penalty area at 10yards intervals. He then asked the best dribbler to dribble the ball from the half way line while his 4 team mates were asked to pass the ball through to the penalty area? Do you remember which ball arrived quicker in the penalty area?
No I must have been off sick that day.
OK well how would you define your defensive skills in working for the team? Well I am very mobile, pretty quick and work really very hard in running around a lot. Did I mention I was very good at winning fouls?
I repeat I like Williams. He is mobile, quite quick, has excellent technical ability but by comparison his end product IS woeful. In training I would give him a bonus for every first time pass which hit its target (2 touch should be the norm) and fine him for every third, fourth, fifth touch out side of a 25yard line from the opponents goal line. He is built for pass and move. No bugger should get near him but Claus Jensen really?
What do you not understand? With the best will in the world he can never be relied upon as a mainstay contributor because he is made of glass. In nearly 2 calendar years he has completed 90 mins just 7 times. You simply cannot rely on him getting through one game within the current schedule let alone see him as a mainstay regular contributor. Yesterday he was called on to do a job WITH AND WITHOUT the ball. Did he do the job? No he bloody didn't.
The message could not be simpler. Twinkle toes must twinkle has its uses in VERY limited circumstances. In every aspect of his demeanour he is a team player. He just needs to realign what that means in delivering to the same concept when he is on the field. His injury travails likely mean he may never move beyond the periphery of any team but he has to seize every opportunity. He didn't. In the new world of the salary cap I genuinely fear for his future in the professional game.
I wish him all the very best but he simply has to offer more.
What a complete garbage post. If you’re gonna to waste my time please try and do it a little quicker and save the essay.
One thing which hasn’t been mentioned much (may be wrong on this) is that the 50/50 Williams challenge he so called bottled, i think it would have almost certainly been a foul and a yellow if he went through with it. Regardless terrible man management from Bowyer on this occasion imo. Williams seems like an arm round the shoulder sort of player to me and i think Bowyer has misread this one.
I do also think its fair to criticise Bowyer while also debating Williams role in the team. His goal/assist record since being here has been very disappointing because we know he is quality on his day. Regardless subbing him on and off because ‘ya don’t do that in my teams’ aint gonna help!
Bowyer lost his temper and subbed Williams for bottling out of tackles. Williams shouldn't bottle tackles and Bowyer shouldn't lose his temper. The end.
One thing which hasn’t been mentioned much (may be wrong on this) is that the 50/50 Williams challenge he so called bottled, i think it would have almost certainly been a foul and a yellow if he went through with it. Regardless terrible man management from Bowyer on this occasion imo. Williams seems like an arm round the shoulder sort of player to me and i think Bowyer has misread this one.
I do also think its fair to criticise Bowyer while also debating Williams role in the team. His goal/assist record since being here has been very disappointing because we know he is quality on his day. Regardless subbing him on and off because ‘ya don’t do that in my teams’ aint gonna help!
I've been quite vocal in my criticism of Bowyer but I have to disagree there. If Williams has let the team down, I don't think it's acceptable to simply put his arm round him and tell him to do better next time. Players should face criticism from their manager if they make mistakes, bottle challenges etc. Just not in the way Bowyer does on occasions.
Bowyer lost his temper and subbed Williams for bottling out of tackles. Williams shouldn't bottle tackles and Bowyer shouldn't lose his temper. The end.
One thing which hasn’t been mentioned much (may be wrong on this) is that the 50/50 Williams challenge he so called bottled, i think it would have almost certainly been a foul and a yellow if he went through with it. Regardless terrible man management from Bowyer on this occasion imo. Williams seems like an arm round the shoulder sort of player to me and i think Bowyer has misread this one.
I do also think its fair to criticise Bowyer while also debating Williams role in the team. His goal/assist record since being here has been very disappointing because we know he is quality on his day. Regardless subbing him on and off because ‘ya don’t do that in my teams’ aint gonna help!
I've been quite vocal in my criticism of Bowyer but I have to disagree there. If Williams has let the team down, I don't think it's acceptable to simply put his arm round him and tell him to do better next time. Players should face criticism from their manager if they make mistakes, bottle challenges etc. Just not in the way Bowyer does on occasions.
Fair enough, i’m not saying give Williams a free pass but i just don’t think Bowyer should do that in public particularly to a player like Williams. More understandable to lose your temper after the game in private. If Williams had stayed on would we have held on? Impossible to say i guess.
One thing which hasn’t been mentioned much (may be wrong on this) is that the 50/50 Williams challenge he so called bottled, i think it would have almost certainly been a foul and a yellow if he went through with it. Regardless terrible man management from Bowyer on this occasion imo. Williams seems like an arm round the shoulder sort of player to me and i think Bowyer has misread this one.
I do also think its fair to criticise Bowyer while also debating Williams role in the team. His goal/assist record since being here has been very disappointing because we know he is quality on his day. Regardless subbing him on and off because ‘ya don’t do that in my teams’ aint gonna help!
I've been quite vocal in my criticism of Bowyer but I have to disagree there. If Williams has let the team down, I don't think it's acceptable to simply put his arm round him and tell him to do better next time. Players should face criticism from their manager if they make mistakes, bottle challenges etc. Just not in the way Bowyer does on occasions.
Fair enough, i’m not saying give Williams a free pass but i just don’t think Bowyer should do that in public particularly to a player like Williams. More understandable to lose your temper after the game in private. If Williams had stayed on would we have held on? Impossible to say i guess.
No I completely agree with that. My balanced view is that Williams hasn't been good enough for us and Bowyer probably feels the same. I have no doubt he gets frustrated with him and I don't blame him for that. I also understand that his lack of goals or meaningful attacking play would then piss you if he's not putting a shift in, because then what is he offering the team?
But I absolutely agree that hauling him off and then making those comments were unfair. Not as if Bows himself has form for holding his hands up when he's made mistakes!
I don't think Lee Bowyer doing something like that substitution is his first course or action nor is pulling a player up publicly. No way has he not had his arm round a players shoulder or had a word in their ear.
The Bowyer criticism is going well over the top, just remember where we were not that long ago. The squad has some quality in it but was essentially thrown together very quickly.
Williams is a good player, he scares the shit out of midfielders and defenders who just kick chunks out of him however either his teammates or him are not reading one another very well at the moment. Johnny Williams isn't a pussy either he isn't scared to get a whack and he has shocked me with his willingness to win the ball on a few occasions this season. Doesn't excuse pulling out of tackles ever though, that's a fundamental
If you pull out of a tackle in a Sunday League game that's not acceptable in my book, particularly when most of your teammates are working their nuts off for the cause. Pulling out of a tackle as a professional is inexcusable. I'm not talking about 50/50 bone crushers - I'm talking about standard tackles that he shirks.
Fact is that Williams has not been at it all season, and he wasn't exactly great last season either. Yes he wins free kicks, but he flatters to deceive most of the time.
To say "tackling isn't his game" is complete horseshit. But let's go with that and say it isn't. So just what IS his game - scoring goals? No. Getting assists? No. What then? The best that's been offered here is winning free kicks that lead to goals. Really? Who's been scoring these free kicks then?
If I'm playing right back and he bottles a tackle in front of me then I'm livid and would be screaming at the manager to get him off.
The team is more important than one blokes feelings. Was it harsh? Probably. Did he deserve it? Probably.
Have a look at the Rolling reels highlights, Gilbey did exactly the same thing.....blatantly pulled out of a tackle, Id have Williams in my side in front of Gilbey.
What point am I missing? In all honesty I could have written the above half a dozen times about comments on Williams this season.
I have repeatedly seen him positioned as offering something the facts suggest he simply does not consistently deliver.
I fully respect the talents he has but he endlessly flatters to deceive. Is he alone? No far from it. But this thread has been solely used to attack Bowyer and I have sought to redress such attacks with some balance
Patronising in no way - utter nonsense. I do not suggest I have any superior knowledge I have quoted a series of facts. Such facts are there for you all to see if you want to.
What is patronising is the endless positioning of poor man management when none of us have any idea on the relationship between the manager and the player, the nature of their discussions and the coaching demands made in helping the player to progress his career.
It is precisely the same nonsense we saw with Bogle.
My tongue in cheek "interview" approach was simply to reference the more genteel environment some seem to be using in alleging poor man management. Much of it appears endless supposition based on an assumption of a professional sport working environment I simply do not recognise.
The argument I pose is precisely against the headline which argues he has been harshly treated whereon I have merely positioned the reason he has not been harshly treated against his overall contribution of 2yrs.
He has not.
The guy is 27yrs old in a highly competitive results based industry.
The message is clear to him, to Bogle, to Maddison, to Morgan and to anyone else - you have to deliver.
Many on social media are screaming at Bowyer because he has not delivered results over the past 16 days. That is precisely the same message he is sending to the players. If you can do it why can't he?
Within the game I agree the substitution appeared debatable but a professional footballer with over 150 senior appearances pulling out of a challenge IS UNACCEPTABLE. What do you think the other players would be saying if it had happened again and it cost a goal?
Bowyer saw it, did his job and acted and chose team over player. That is how it works. That is how it is supposed to work.
He was asked why Williams was substituted. He gave an honest answer. I respect and suspect 99% of players will respect such honesty.
The guy is 27yrs old in a highly competitive results based industry.
The message is clear to him, to Bogle, to Maddison, to Morgan and to anyone else - you have to deliver.
Exactly. I am so tired of reading constant excuses made for our players. Johnnie has not performed consistently for an absolute age. And when he does 'perform', what is he doing exactly? Shuttling the ball around and winning free-kicks.
No doubt he has talent, but clearly he's not got the competitive streak he needs to make the most of it. He's coasting here.
His popularity can't be down to his performances.
27, terribly inconsistent, can only last 70 minutes a game (!!) and has a terrible injury record, we really have to let him go.
My one question is, if Lee's idea was to show players that if they don't do their job properly they get hooked, why wasn't Washington taken off after missing a penalty? Or Gunter at Gillingham (it was too late in the day Saturday, obviously) when he gave away that stupid penalty?
Disect Williams career all you like, on Saturday, his presence seemed to improve the side and we got a goal in which he was involved. Apparently Shrews nearly scored when he shirked a tackle. They nearly scored, but didn't actually score, so it cost us nothing.
I think Bowyers decison, on this occasion, was wrong and maybe cost us two points.
Bowyer lost his temper and subbed Williams for bottling out of tackles. Williams shouldn't bottle tackles and Bowyer shouldn't lose his temper. The end.
Most sensible post of the weekend.
Hopefully both parties learn from it and we crack on now.
Going to keep saying this, but Williams made a huge positive difference when he came on, and subbing him off was absolutely ridiculous whichever way you look at it, even if him not diving into a tackle he'd never have won was maybe a little bit soft.
Bowyer didn't choose team over player. He ruined our shape and invited Shrewsbury on even more. He chose 'discipline' over everything else.
As Williams chose to trigger the contract extension after relegation, would he be using a large chunk of our wage budget? Looks to me like Bowyer didn’t want him to stay, Williams chose to stay and now Bowyer wouldn’t mind getting rid in January to free up wages for a player he wants.
I have no idea how much JW is on, but I would bet its considerably more than 2.5k a week, or what ever the average is. If he goes in January could you bring in a better player on 2.5k a week?
Highly unlikely imo
But could we bring in a more effective player? Someone fitter and not so injury prone?
We definitely could. Some of our fans seem to accept that players can only play for 60 mins. It's been going on for so long they think it's normal. It's not.
And that's part of the problem. With the exception of Albie, who has never played for anyone else, they all have until they rock up in SE7.
I might be wrong but when Robinson was here JFC seemed to be able manage back to back 90 minutes. Chuks did for mk dons, Williams even does for Wales now.
In the last 18 months have we had a single player that hasn't had a "months not weeks" injury? It can't be that the play flat out because Stevie Wonder could see they dont, or haven't for the last year.
The only conclusion possible is that they are either over trained or all on the fags, booze and junk food. Because they ALL look knackered before we even kick off, then proceed to run through treacle for 60 minutes, then get subbed.
Didn't you read Bow's interview about all this in the SLP some 3 weeks ago? The entire medical/fitness/conditioning regime had been run down to virtually National League standards. The Gym is a tent. They've been staying in shit hotels, and served shit food. That's what he said. It's not just this season either. Some of us had been warning this was happening once we realised that Duchatelet was getting Meire to run the club off an Excel spreadsheet. Not that there's anything wrong with an Excel spreadsheet, so long as you understand what actually lies behind each cost line and that you cannot just reduce all of them by, say 15%, in order to see your bottom line figure, without consequences. He never understood that medical/fitness has a certain mandatory minimum if you want to compete, same way as safety checks at an airline can't be compromised unless you are happy for your safety record to be down there with Air Yakutsk or similar.
What we are seeing now is the consequence of years of neglect. Presumably the parting of ways with the head of that department was the beginning of re-building under TS, but it won't happen overnight and it will take months for the changes to work through to better fitness and resilience of players.
Apologies if already mentioned, but Gilbey bottled a tackle just before they hit the crossbar the first time. Maybe that's why he was taken off ironically for Williams.
Who needs tactical substitutions when you can just hook the player who most recently bottled a tackle?
Comments
I keep telling anyone who will listen that I can't remember seeing a "good game" since football started again after lockdown. But that's not just us, it's across the board.
Bizarrely the best "game" - for a neutral - I can remember was against Burton where we actually created some chances, missed them and then handed the game to them with some shocking mistakes.
All I'm saying is that surely after all the crap that's happened we just need some stability now?
This constant digging out of people does nobody any good.
Some of our fans seem to accept that players can only play for 60 mins.
It's been going on for so long they think it's normal.
It's not.
I find the reactions on here quite strange.
If we are at home to let's say Millwall next season and one of our lightweight players bottles a tackle I'm presuming the majority will be just as understanding.
I'm not sure about him being subbed, but if he's been told to toughen up, to try and play football and to stop constantly throwing himself to the floor, then ok Bowyer blew his top and probably shouldn't have.
Bowyer's got more patience than me, because I got sick & tired of all the theatrics about a year ago.
Several players were pretty crap yesterday, I don't understand why Williams was dug out. What about Gunter giving away the penalty, I haven't seen Bowyer having a pop at him. Subbing him for it was OTT, so was publicly digging him out. Bowyer has made some baffling and disrespectful remarks recently, this isn't a one time issue.
I might be wrong but when Robinson was here JFC seemed to be able manage back to back 90 minutes. Chuks did for mk dons, Williams even does for Wales now.
In the last 18 months have we had a single player that hasn't had a "months not weeks" injury? It can't be that the play flat out because Stevie Wonder could see they dont, or haven't for the last year.
The only conclusion possible is that they are either over trained or all on the fags, booze and junk food. Because they ALL look knackered before we even kick off, then proceed to run through treacle for 60 minutes, then get subbed.
In todays world if you cannot do the job then you do not stay on the pitch.
I like Williams but he has locked himself into a perverse mind set. To quote his job for Wales he describes as " to carry the ball up field and win fouls for Gareth and others to exploit.
If you were undertaking a player interview for attacking midfield player with Williams I imagine it will go something like this.
So Jonny as an attacking midfield player could you tell me how many goals you have scored?
Well I don't score a lot of goals I tend to focus on the creative side. (1 goal in 57 appearances)
On the creative side could you tell me what is your range and accuracy of passing
Well I don't always focus on passing the ball a lot these days. I tend to carry and dribble the ball. Its very exciting. The fans love it.
Could you then share just how many goal assists you have recorded when focusing on the creative side?
Well I am still working on that because I do get fouled a lot (6 assists in 57 appearances - the last assist 19.10.2019)
Could you tell me with your dribbling skills how many penalties you have won over the season?
Well I do not normally get that far up field - but I am very good at winning fouls in non threatening areas.
Jonny do you remember that coaching session when you were 12yrs old when the PE teacher gave the best dribbler in the team the ball on the halfway line and then had 4 team mates positioned from the halfway line to the penalty area at 10yards intervals. He then asked the best dribbler to dribble the ball from the half way line while his 4 team mates were asked to pass the ball through to the penalty area? Do you remember which ball arrived quicker in the penalty area?
No I must have been off sick that day.
OK well how would you define your defensive skills in working for the team?
Well I am very mobile, pretty quick and work really very hard in running around a lot. Did I mention I was very good at winning fouls?
I repeat I like Williams. He is mobile, quite quick, has excellent technical ability but by comparison his end product IS woeful. In training I would give him a bonus for every first time pass which hit its target (2 touch should be the norm) and fine him for every third, fourth, fifth touch out side of a 25yard line from the opponents goal line. He is built for pass and move. No bugger should get near him but Claus Jensen really?
What do you not understand? With the best will in the world he can never be relied upon as a mainstay contributor because he is made of glass. In nearly 2 calendar years he has completed 90 mins just 7 times. You simply cannot rely on him getting through one game within the current schedule let alone see him as a mainstay regular contributor. Yesterday he was called on to do a job WITH AND WITHOUT the ball. Did he do the job? No he bloody didn't.
The message could not be simpler. Twinkle toes must twinkle has its uses in VERY limited circumstances. In every aspect of his demeanour he is a team player. He just needs to realign what that means in delivering to the same concept when he is on the field. His injury travails likely mean he may never move beyond the periphery of any team but he has to seize every opportunity. He didn't. In the new world of the salary cap I genuinely fear for his future in the professional game.
I wish him all the very best but he simply has to offer more.
I think you’ve just come across as a patronising tit in that post to be honest.
;-)
Williams shouldn't bottle tackles and Bowyer shouldn't lose his temper.
The end.
But I absolutely agree that hauling him off and then making those comments were unfair. Not as if Bows himself has form for holding his hands up when he's made mistakes!
The Bowyer criticism is going well over the top, just remember where we were not that long ago. The squad has some quality in it but was essentially thrown together very quickly.
Williams is a good player, he scares the shit out of midfielders and defenders who just kick chunks out of him however either his teammates or him are not reading one another very well at the moment. Johnny Williams isn't a pussy either he isn't scared to get a whack and he has shocked me with his willingness to win the ball on a few occasions this season. Doesn't excuse pulling out of tackles ever though, that's a fundamental
I have repeatedly seen him positioned as offering something the facts suggest he simply does not consistently deliver.
I fully respect the talents he has but he endlessly flatters to deceive. Is he alone? No far from it. But this thread has been solely used to attack Bowyer and I have sought to redress such attacks with some balance
Patronising in no way - utter nonsense. I do not suggest I have any superior knowledge I have quoted a series of facts. Such facts are there for you all to see if you want to.
What is patronising is the endless positioning of poor man management when none of us have any idea on the relationship between the manager and the player, the nature of their discussions and the coaching demands made in helping the player to progress his career.
It is precisely the same nonsense we saw with Bogle.
My tongue in cheek "interview" approach was simply to reference the more genteel environment some seem to be using in alleging poor man management. Much of it appears endless supposition based on an assumption of a professional sport working environment I simply do not recognise.
The argument I pose is precisely against the headline which argues he has been harshly treated whereon I have merely positioned the reason he has not been harshly treated against his overall contribution of 2yrs.
He has not.
The guy is 27yrs old in a highly competitive results based industry.
The message is clear to him, to Bogle, to Maddison, to Morgan and to anyone else - you have to deliver.
Many on social media are screaming at Bowyer because he has not delivered results over the past 16 days. That is precisely the same message he is sending to the players. If you can do it why can't he?
Within the game I agree the substitution appeared debatable but a professional footballer with over 150 senior appearances pulling out of a challenge IS UNACCEPTABLE. What do you think the other players would be saying if it had happened again and it cost a goal?
Bowyer saw it, did his job and acted and chose team over player. That is how it works. That is how it is supposed to work.
He was asked why Williams was substituted. He gave an honest answer. I respect and suspect 99% of players will respect such honesty.
No doubt he has talent, but clearly he's not got the competitive streak he needs to make the most of it. He's coasting here.
His popularity can't be down to his performances.
27, terribly inconsistent, can only last 70 minutes a game (!!) and has a terrible injury record, we really have to let him go.
Disect Williams career all you like, on Saturday, his presence seemed to improve the side and we got a goal in which he was involved. Apparently Shrews nearly scored when he shirked a tackle. They nearly scored, but didn't actually score, so it cost us nothing.
I think Bowyers decison, on this occasion, was wrong and maybe cost us two points.
Most sensible post of the weekend.
Hopefully both parties learn from it and we crack on now.
Bowyer didn't choose team over player. He ruined our shape and invited Shrewsbury on even more. He chose 'discipline' over everything else.
What we are seeing now is the consequence of years of neglect. Presumably the parting of ways with the head of that department was the beginning of re-building under TS, but it won't happen overnight and it will take months for the changes to work through to better fitness and resilience of players.
'No end product'
https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/jason-pearce-charlton-boss-lee-bowyer-demands-a-lot-from-players-if-you-dont-meet-expectations-you-wont-play/