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Christian bakery owners win appeal

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  • Big_Bad_World
    Big_Bad_World Posts: 5,859
    It wasn't discrimination. That's not my opinion, it's the ruling of the 3 justices on the Supreme Court.
  • hoof_it_up_to_benty
    hoof_it_up_to_benty Posts: 22,450
    Big_Bad_World said:

    It wasn't discrimination. That's not my opinion, it's the ruling of the 3 justices on the Supreme Court.

    The ruling has been made and that's how the law stands at the current time. Laws obviously change over time.
  • LenGlover
    LenGlover Posts: 31,651
    Riviera said:

    I chucked someone out for going on and on about Brexit once, and it wasn't @PragueAddick! In fact he was a leaver.

    I remember :wink:
  • rikofold
    rikofold Posts: 4,051
    Covered End said:

    Personally, I think that a customer has the right to request a service that they deem reasonable and a business has the right to refuse to deliver that service if they profoundly disagree with it.

    If it was my cake shop and I didn't like the "message" I would also refuse.

    The message could say "support ISIS" or it could say "gays should be hung" and I'd refuse to do that lettering for example.

    I suspect the same bakers would also refuse to add a message that gays should be executed.

    This is why the ruling is spot on, and in my view why this kind of activism is entirely counterproductive.
  • hoof_it_up_to_benty
    hoof_it_up_to_benty Posts: 22,450
    rikofold said:

    Covered End said:

    Personally, I think that a customer has the right to request a service that they deem reasonable and a business has the right to refuse to deliver that service if they profoundly disagree with it.

    If it was my cake shop and I didn't like the "message" I would also refuse.

    The message could say "support ISIS" or it could say "gays should be hung" and I'd refuse to do that lettering for example.

    I suspect the same bakers would also refuse to add a message that gays should be executed.

    This is why the ruling is spot on, and in my view why this kind of activism is entirely counterproductive.
    It didn't seem a fight worth having.
  • Riviera
    Riviera Posts: 8,167
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:

    rikofold said:

    Covered End said:

    Personally, I think that a customer has the right to request a service that they deem reasonable and a business has the right to refuse to deliver that service if they profoundly disagree with it.

    If it was my cake shop and I didn't like the "message" I would also refuse.

    The message could say "support ISIS" or it could say "gays should be hung" and I'd refuse to do that lettering for example.

    I suspect the same bakers would also refuse to add a message that gays should be executed.

    This is why the ruling is spot on, and in my view why this kind of activism is entirely counterproductive.
    It didn't seem a fight worth having.
    Someone who did funded it.
  • hoof_it_up_to_benty
    hoof_it_up_to_benty Posts: 22,450
    Riviera said:

    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:

    rikofold said:

    Covered End said:

    Personally, I think that a customer has the right to request a service that they deem reasonable and a business has the right to refuse to deliver that service if they profoundly disagree with it.

    If it was my cake shop and I didn't like the "message" I would also refuse.

    The message could say "support ISIS" or it could say "gays should be hung" and I'd refuse to do that lettering for example.

    I suspect the same bakers would also refuse to add a message that gays should be executed.

    This is why the ruling is spot on, and in my view why this kind of activism is entirely counterproductive.
    It didn't seem a fight worth having.
    Someone who did funded it.
    That's their right - we live in a freeish society.
  • seth plum
    seth plum Posts: 53,448
    Not safe for work.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cASKWJou-VE
  • KiwiValley
    KiwiValley Posts: 3,379
    I saw in the thread title "Christian Bakery" and thought - sounds French, could probably do a job for us.
  • Vincenzo
    Vincenzo Posts: 2,911
    Oh dear. Tit for tat.

    "Christian bakery legal team refused service by photography company ‘on moral grounds'"

    https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/10/11/gay-cake-christian-institute-photography/
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  • Nadou
    Nadou Posts: 1,725
    Excellent, balanced opinion piece by (of all people) Peter Tatchell in The Times today. Basically points out that if you deny the right to the bakers to refuse the slogan, you would have to deny a gay baker the right to refuse to put "I hate Gays" on a cake when asked.
  • MuttleyCAFC
    MuttleyCAFC Posts: 47,729
    Hopefully not just gay Bakers would object :smile:

  • hoof_it_up_to_benty
    hoof_it_up_to_benty Posts: 22,450
    Nadou said:

    Excellent, balanced opinion piece by (of all people) Peter Tatchell in The Times today. Basically points out that if you deny the right to the bakers to refuse the slogan, you would have to deny a gay baker the right to refuse to put "I hate Gays" on a cake when asked.

    I think there should be a total ban on cake slogans.
  • Fumbluff
    Fumbluff Posts: 10,127
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:

    Nadou said:

    Excellent, balanced opinion piece by (of all people) Peter Tatchell in The Times today. Basically points out that if you deny the right to the bakers to refuse the slogan, you would have to deny a gay baker the right to refuse to put "I hate Gays" on a cake when asked.

    I think there should be a total ban on cake slogans.
    And bakers....
  • clb74
    clb74 Posts: 10,824
    I want to know what Ernie and bert have to say on the matter.
    Did they ever come out as gay, what are their rights if they are not or even if they but didn't want to come out.
    They might not even agree with gay marriage would they then have a case to sue?
  • rikofold
    rikofold Posts: 4,051
    clb74 said:

    I want to know what Ernie and bert have to say on the matter.
    Did they ever come out as gay, what are their rights if they are not or even if they but didn't want to come out.
    They might not even agree with gay marriage would they then have a case to sue?

    The official answer to that is that they are just puppets.
  • The Red Robin
    The Red Robin Posts: 26,127
    Covered End said:

    MuttleyCAFC said:

    Is the point being made that the bakery would refuse to make a cake stating 'Support heterosexual marriage'?

    If not, surely some form of sexual discrimination is taking place!

    Lady Hale added: "The bakers could not refuse to supply their goods to Mr Lee because he was a gay man or supported gay marriage, but that is quite different from obliging them to supply a cake iced with a message with which they profoundly disagreed."
    It's the same thing, it's homeophobic however you look at it. Blinded by religion.
  • Big_Bad_World
    Big_Bad_World Posts: 5,859
    The Red Robin said:

    Covered End said:

    MuttleyCAFC said:

    Is the point being made that the bakery would refuse to make a cake stating 'Support heterosexual marriage'?

    If not, surely some form of sexual discrimination is taking place!

    Lady Hale added: "The bakers could not refuse to supply their goods to Mr Lee because he was a gay man or supported gay marriage, but that is quite different from obliging them to supply a cake iced with a message with which they profoundly disagreed."
    It's the same thing, it's homeophobic however you look at it. Blinded by religion.
    It's not the same thing, hence the lawful decision by the judges.

    Agree re the blinded by religion bit.
  • i_b_b_o_r_g
    i_b_b_o_r_g Posts: 18,948
    mistrollingin said:

    Baldybonce said:

    SantaClaus said:

    Covered End said:

    SantaClaus said:

    Was the complainant a genuine customer or was the whole thing a set up by an activist?

    Mr Lee had no claim against Ashers on the grounds of religious belief or political opinion, but speaking outside of court, the customer said: "This was never a campaign. I had no idea when I ordered the cake that this would happen."
    Fair enough. It just seems completely over the top that both sides would go to these lengths over a birthday cake.
    Thank god it wasn't a cream horn.
    Or, a Spotted Dick
    Or Chocolate Finger
  • masicat
    masicat Posts: 5,008
    Would love to ask this baker if he would make a cake with a few sentences from Leviticus, especially the ones about stoning and slavery.
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  • Big_Bad_World
    Big_Bad_World Posts: 5,859
    I'd love to ask the customer if he'd go in to a halal/Islamic bakery and ask for the same slogan to be piped.
  • Addickted
    Addickted Posts: 19,456
    Can you get halal icing?
  • DaveMehmet
    DaveMehmet Posts: 21,601
    masicat said:

    Would love to ask this baker if he would make a cake with a few sentences from Leviticus, especially the ones about stoning and slavery.

    Would really enhance the birthday experience
  • masicat
    masicat Posts: 5,008
    DaveMehmet said:

    masicat said:

    Would love to ask this baker if he would make a cake with a few sentences from Leviticus, especially the ones about stoning and slavery.

    Would really enhance the birthday experience
    Might not be a birthday, just a cake for a get together of a crowd of Christian bigots celebrating all that is good in the Bible.
  • Stu_of_Kunming
    Stu_of_Kunming Posts: 17,118
    Addickted said:

    Can you get halal icing?

    http://www.projecthalal.com/?category_id=C-1330210617-L2EVDY0JT2
  • palarsehater
    palarsehater Posts: 12,296
    edited October 2018
    masicat said:

    Would love to ask this baker if he would make a cake with a few sentences from Leviticus, especially the ones about stoning and slavery.

    probably not although don't know why anyone would want slogans of the torah on a cake, as a staunch protestant ( I'm assuming ) he does not agree with gay marriage - so can see his reasons for not wanting to print it - fair play to him for turning business away and considering his beliefs more important.

    as a bit of realism the republic of ireland 735,000 voted no in a gay marraige referendum, i do not think that 3/4 of a million people are "extremists" they just follow the christian faith and its values.
  • palarsehater
    palarsehater Posts: 12,296
    Big_Bad_World said:

    I'd love to ask the customer if he'd go in to a halal/Islamic bakery and ask for the same slogan to be piped.

    would not even make the local newspaper - many muslim workers in supermarkets wear gloves when handling alcohol or refuse to even sell it, difference is this is not there business.
  • Stu_of_Kunming
    Stu_of_Kunming Posts: 17,118
    palarsehater said:

    Big_Bad_World said:

    I'd love to ask the customer if he'd go in to a halal/Islamic bakery and ask for the same slogan to be piped.

    would not even make the local newspaper - many muslim workers in supermarkets wear gloves when handling alcohol or refuse to even sell it, difference is this is not there business.
    Seems pretty reasonable to me.
  • palarsehater
    palarsehater Posts: 12,296
    Stu_of_Kunming said:

    palarsehater said:

    Big_Bad_World said:

    I'd love to ask the customer if he'd go in to a halal/Islamic bakery and ask for the same slogan to be piped.

    would not even make the local newspaper - many muslim workers in supermarkets wear gloves when handling alcohol or refuse to even sell it, difference is this is not there business.
    Seems pretty reasonable to me.
    i'd accept your argument but there is certain sectors where non religous believers are not allowed to work

    a halal, kosher factory can only be worked in by believers of that faith.
  • McBobbin
    McBobbin Posts: 12,051
    Thank Allah the Muslim-owned shop across my road sells alcohol. Helped me out many a time

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