It's quite simple. Every baker should be allowed to refuse anything they are asked to bake and decorate if they don't want to and should not have to give a reason why they don't want to. We need Bakers Law.
Can a publican refuse to serve a customer without giving a reason ? Just curious.
Only if ‘lawful’ - ie not if discriminatory to the aforementioned groups.
I also think it’s a different issue. This is about a cake decoration. If a gay couple had gone into the shop and asked them to make a wedding cake with no names or special decoration, and the shop had refused, the outcome would be very different. At least I hope it would.
Yes, or if they had been refused marriage. They point isn't whether or not you agree with the views. I think the court of appeal made the right decision for the right reasons, even though my personal view is that being against a legal right because of religious views is a load of cock.
Except, of course that gay couples are refused marriage equality in Northern Ireland; would that the Supreme Court had determined that refusal of equal marriage rights in Northern Ireland was unlawful.
I have very mixed feelings about this case.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the religiosity of the owners was already well known, and it could reasonably be inferred that they would have been unwilling to ice the message.
The case (IMHO, and I may be wrong) was about getting maximum publicity, and a tasty cake (because Ashers do very nice cakes), there would have been none if they'd gone to a bakery and had the cake iced with no problem.
It’s quite simple, refuse to sell to or make a cake for, because they are gay, is discrimination and illegal, refusal to adorn it with a political statement you don’t conscientiously agree with, is not. As an example, if you were asked to provide a cake with the political message of legalise all drugs, free Julian Assange/tommy Robinson, you may have an issue with that.
i think the disagreement here, is not necessarily with the ruling per se but with the point it is simple. It isn't and the history of this case bears that out.
I agree with you that it's not simple and I'm confident there will be further cases in the years to come.
It’s quite simple, refuse to sell to or make a cake for, because they are gay, is discrimination and illegal, refusal to adorn it with a political statement you don’t conscientiously agree with, is not. As an example, if you were asked to provide a cake with the political message of legalise all drugs, free Julian Assange/tommy Robinson, you may have an issue with that.
This has nailed it.
Come on, you could have said, this is the icing on the cake.
Feel free to test out my business by ordering some controversial flyers btw.
If the ruling had gone the other way and I ordered a 1000 flyers off you stating that your printing company is crap; would you have to print and supply them?
It is a good question and it is good to explore these things I think. That is how we should all try to shape our views in my opinion. If we just say - that's the law simple it is too easy. I think the balance between respecting religious freedom and equalities is incredibly difficult. I suspect there was a motivation outside of wanting a cake behind this. Should we try to trap people with strong religious views into these situations?
P.S. To be honest, if you genuinely wanted me to print them I'd probably do them as what would you possibly do with them that would damage me? I'd just be getting your money! This has forced me to think about where I would draw the line. Would I print something for the Conservatives - yes of course I would. I don't have to agree with them to respect their right to have opinions. What about an extreme group - let's say the EDF - no I wouldn't. Roland in - that would be difficult also, which says we all have our lines.
It's quite simple. Every baker should be allowed to refuse anything they are asked to bake and decorate if they don't want to and should not have to give a reason why they don't want to. We need Bakers Law.
Can a publican refuse to serve a customer without giving a reason ? Just curious.
The management reserve the right to deny admission to the premises. Of course we can, it's our pub.
Peter Tattsal(my spelling) has just said he thinks it's the right decision ---- a man who has spilled a good bit of his own blood for gay rights ---- that should be the end of it the "always offended "can get back in the box
It's quite simple. Every baker should be allowed to refuse anything they are asked to bake and decorate if they don't want to and should not have to give a reason why they don't want to. We need Bakers Law.
Can a publican refuse to serve a customer without giving a reason ? Just curious.
The management reserve the right to deny admission to the premises. Of course we can, it's our pub.
But I’m sure there are limits to that. If you refuse admission to women or Chinese people, I’m sure that will be a problem.
Like all of these issues, there’s a line, but it’s not always easy to prove it’s been crossed in a court of law.
@MuttleyCAFC I'm sorry if I offended you earlier and if I did then I apologise.
No of course this isn't simple and throws up a number of contradictory views. The Equality Act lists 9 protected characteristics, two of which are marriage/civil partnership and sexual orientation, both relevant in this discussion. An interesting dichotomy would be to consider if the claimant had won this case if the baker could have counter claimed that he had been discriminated against because of his religion or belief (or lack of belief) - another of the 9 protected characteristics.
I can refuse to serve anyone. I do not have to justify why. That was the question, we're not talking about legal positions. We have a number of female Chinese regulars by the way.
It's quite simple. Every baker should be allowed to refuse anything they are asked to bake and decorate if they don't want to and should not have to give a reason why they don't want to. We need Bakers Law.
Can a publican refuse to serve a customer without giving a reason ? Just curious.
The management reserve the right to deny admission to the premises. Of course we can, it's our pub.
As long as it isn't for an unlawful reason - as has already been stated on this thread.
I can refuse to serve anyone. I do not have to justify why. That was the question, we're not talking about legal positions. We have a number of female Chinese regulars by the way.
Serious question. Could Chirpy/Riviera legally refuse to serve Millwall supporters if he chose to do so ? (assuming he'd never seen them before and they hadn't caused trouble to his knowledge).
I can refuse to serve anyone. I do not have to justify why. That was the question, we're not talking about legal positions. We have a number of female Chinese regulars by the way.
Serious question. Could Chirpy/Riviera refuse to serve Millwall supporters if he chose to do so ?
Yes they could - some discrimination is lawful, and in this case complete common sense.
I can refuse to serve anyone. I do not have to justify why. That was the question, we're not talking about legal positions. We have a number of female Chinese regulars by the way.
Serious question. Could Chirpy/Riviera refuse to serve Millwall supporters if he chose to do so ?
I could do as long as I didn't give that as a reason. I wouldn't though as I have plenty of them!
I can refuse to serve anyone. I do not have to justify why. That was the question, we're not talking about legal positions. We have a number of female Chinese regulars by the way.
It's quite simple. Every baker should be allowed to refuse anything they are asked to bake and decorate if they don't want to and should not have to give a reason why they don't want to. We need Bakers Law.
Can a publican refuse to serve a customer without giving a reason ? Just curious.
The management reserve the right to deny admission to the premises. Of course we can, it's our pub.
As long as it isn't for an unlawful reason - as has already been stated on this thread.
I can refuse to serve anyone. I do not have to justify why. That was the question, we're not talking about legal positions. We have a number of female Chinese regulars by the way.
Serious question. Could Chirpy/Riviera refuse to serve Millwall supporters if he chose to do so ?
I could do as long as I didn't give that as a reason. I wouldn't though as I have plenty of them!
You could give it as a reason, quite lawfully. Discrimination on the grounds of the football team you support is fine as it is not a protected characteristic!
I can refuse to serve anyone. I do not have to justify why. That was the question, we're not talking about legal positions. We have a number of female Chinese regulars by the way.
Serious question. Could Chirpy/Riviera refuse to serve Millwall supporters if he chose to do so ?
I could do as long as I didn't give that as a reason. I wouldn't though as I have plenty of them!
You could give it as a reason, quite lawfully. Discrimination on the grounds of the football team you support is fine as it is not a protected characteristic!
Brilliant. I'll consider opening a pub in Bermondsey just so I can refuse entry to Millwall fans
I can refuse to serve anyone. I do not have to justify why. That was the question, we're not talking about legal positions. We have a number of female Chinese regulars by the way.
Serious question. Could Chirpy/Riviera refuse to serve Millwall supporters if he chose to do so ?
I could do as long as I didn't give that as a reason. I wouldn't though as I have plenty of them!
You could give it as a reason, quite lawfully. Discrimination on the grounds of the football team you support is fine as it is not a protected characteristic!
Brilliant. I'll consider opening a pub in Bermondsey just so I can refuse entry to Millwall fans
No one should be forced to work for someone else if they don't like them, even if their reasoning is ridiculous. In this case, there is always another bakery down the street. Only when government endorses such a policy should there be intervention. It is silly to pass laws to make people pretend to like other people or approve of them. In a free market, there will always be someone willing to capitalize on someone else's discriminatory belief system.
Comments
I have very mixed feelings about this case.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the religiosity of the owners was already well known, and it could reasonably be inferred that they would have been unwilling to ice the message.
The case (IMHO, and I may be wrong) was about getting maximum publicity, and a tasty cake (because Ashers do very nice cakes), there would have been none if they'd gone to a bakery and had the cake iced with no problem.
Edit: not digging you out by the way.
P.S. To be honest, if you genuinely wanted me to print them I'd probably do them as what would you possibly do with them that would damage me? I'd just be getting your money! This has forced me to think about where I would draw the line. Would I print something for the Conservatives - yes of course I would. I don't have to agree with them to respect their right to have opinions. What about an extreme group - let's say the EDF - no I wouldn't. Roland in - that would be difficult also, which says we all have our lines.
Of course we can, it's our pub.
Like all of these issues, there’s a line, but it’s not always easy to prove it’s been crossed in a court of law.
No of course this isn't simple and throws up a number of contradictory views. The Equality Act lists 9 protected characteristics, two of which are marriage/civil partnership and sexual orientation, both relevant in this discussion. An interesting dichotomy would be to consider if the claimant had won this case if the baker could have counter claimed that he had been discriminated against because of his religion or belief (or lack of belief) - another of the 9 protected characteristics.
Could Chirpy/Riviera legally refuse to serve Millwall supporters if he chose to do so ? (assuming he'd never seen them before and they hadn't caused trouble to his knowledge).
http://www.petertatchellfoundation.org/ashers-gay-cake-verdict-is-victory-for-freedom-of-expression/