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Christian bakery owners win appeal

Covered EndCovered End
edited October 2018 in Not Sports Related
Great news for common sense at long last.

Announcing the court's decision, its president, Lady Hale, said: "This conclusion is not in any way to diminish the need to protect gay people and people who support gay marriage from discrimination.

"It is deeply humiliating, and an affront to human dignity, to deny someone a service because of that person's race, gender, disability, sexual orientation, religion or belief.

"But that is not what happened in this case."

She went on: "As to Mr Lee's claim based on sexual discrimination, the bakers did not refuse to fulfil his order because of his sexual orientation.

"They would have refused to make such a cake for any customer, irrespective of their sexual orientation."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/10/christian-owners-bakery-win-appeal-discrimination-ruling-refusing/
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Comments

  • MuttleyCAFCMuttleyCAFC
    Is the point being made that the bakery would refuse to make a cake stating 'Support heterosexual marriage'?

    If not, surely some form of sexual discrimination is taking place!
  • Covered EndCovered End
    MuttleyCAFC said:

    Is the point being made that the bakery would refuse to make a cake stating 'Support heterosexual marriage'?

    If not, surely some form of sexual discrimination is taking place!

    Lady Hale added: "The bakers could not refuse to supply their goods to Mr Lee because he was a gay man or supported gay marriage, but that is quite different from obliging them to supply a cake iced with a message with which they profoundly disagreed."
  • SantaClausSantaClaus
    Was the complainant a genuine customer or was the whole thing a set up by an activist?
  • ForeverAddicktedForeverAddickted
    SantaClaus said:

    Was the complainant a genuine customer or was the whole thing a set up by an activist?

    You'd hope the former seeing that another Bakery seemed happy to oblige
  • Covered EndCovered End
    SantaClaus said:

    Was the complainant a genuine customer or was the whole thing a set up by an activist?

    Mr Lee had no claim against Ashers on the grounds of religious belief or political opinion, but speaking outside of court, the customer said: "This was never a campaign. I had no idea when I ordered the cake that this would happen."
  • MuttleyCAFCMuttleyCAFC
    But the argument is whether disagreeing with Gay marriage is in itself a form of sexual discrimination. I suppose a lot of people hold this view sadly and we have only recently had the law change to allow it so it maybe doesn't feel like discrimination yet. What if the cake said support inter-racial marriage?
  • Covered EndCovered End
    MuttleyCAFC said:

    But the argument is whether disagreeing with Gay marriage is in itself a form of sexual discrimination. I suppose a lot of people hold this view sadly and we have only recently had the law change to allow it so it maybe doesn't feel like discrimination yet. What if the cake said support inter-racial marriage?

    "The bakers were not obliged to supply a cake iced with a message with which they profoundly disagreed."

    Quite right too.
    Muttley I believe you own a printing business.
    Surely, you have the right to refuse to print something you profoundly disagree with ?
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  • Covered EndCovered End
    DaveMehmet said:

    Covered End said:

    MuttleyCAFC said:

    But the argument is whether disagreeing with Gay marriage is in itself a form of sexual discrimination. I suppose a lot of people hold this view sadly and we have only recently had the law change to allow it so it maybe doesn't feel like discrimination yet. What if the cake said support inter-racial marriage?

    "The bakers were not obliged to supply a cake iced with a message with which they profoundly disagreed."

    Quite right too.
    Muttley I believe you own a printing business.
    Surely, you have the right to refuse to print something you profoundly disagree with ?
    Submit a proof for Palace Ultra calling cards to find out.
    Or something anti Corbyn :smile:
  • SantaClausSantaClaus
    Covered End said:

    SantaClaus said:

    Was the complainant a genuine customer or was the whole thing a set up by an activist?

    Mr Lee had no claim against Ashers on the grounds of religious belief or political opinion, but speaking outside of court, the customer said: "This was never a campaign. I had no idea when I ordered the cake that this would happen."
    Fair enough. It just seems completely over the top that both sides would go to these lengths over a birthday cake.
  • PaddyP17PaddyP17
    There are so many questions here. This is such a weird issue. And while my questions are phrased humorously, there is a bit of a point to them.

    1. What if someone wanted to print "the Chinese - a great bunch of lads" on a cake, and a bakery "profoundly disagreed" with that message?

    2. Equally - why didn't they find another fucking bakery lol

    3. Where is the line between discriminating against a person or people for whatever reason, and discriminating against a concept? What if I wanted a cake that said "PaddyP17 is an amazing human" and someone refused to print that on a cake due to profound disagreement? Am I being discriminated against, or is that the message or what?
  • GreenieGreenie
    Just goes to show, you cant have your cake............!
  • SuedeAdidasSuedeAdidas
    Baldybonce said:

    SantaClaus said:

    Covered End said:

    SantaClaus said:

    Was the complainant a genuine customer or was the whole thing a set up by an activist?

    Mr Lee had no claim against Ashers on the grounds of religious belief or political opinion, but speaking outside of court, the customer said: "This was never a campaign. I had no idea when I ordered the cake that this would happen."
    Fair enough. It just seems completely over the top that both sides would go to these lengths over a birthday cake.
    Thank god it wasn't a cream horn.
    And a ring donut
  • RizzoRizzo
    Covered End said:

    Personally, I think that a customer has the right to request a service that they deem reasonable and a business has the right to refuse to deliver that service if they profoundly disagree with it.

    That's basically what the court has said. Lady Hale stated:

    "Freedom of expression, as guaranteed by article 10 of the European convention on human rights, includes the right “not to express an opinion which one does not hold”, Hale added. “This court has held that nobody should be forced to have or express a political opinion in which he does not believe,” she said."
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  • MuttleyCAFCMuttleyCAFC
    Yes, I was pondering that in terms of what we would and wouldn't print. We haven't come across anything yet we have not been happy to print. We have actually printed stuff for a gay wedding and for religious groups - Christian and Jewish. I think if a fascist organisation wanted something printed I wouldn't want to do it, even if the message was not offensive in itself. But that is the other way round and it is probably ok to discriminate against fascists.

    It is hard to think of any group that face unfair discrimination within society that I would seek to discriminate against. But as per my earlier post, You have recently had politicians opposing gay marriage on the TV so it probably needs a bit more time to be as offensive as other forms of discrimination.
  • stonemusestonemuse
    Covered End said:

    Personally, I think that a customer has the right to request a service that they deem reasonable and a business has the right to refuse to deliver that service if they profoundly disagree with it.

    I support that approach too.
  • RivieraRiviera
    It's quite simple. Every baker should be allowed to refuse anything they are asked to bake and decorate if they don't want to and should not have to give a reason why they don't want to.
    We need Bakers Law.
  • BaldybonceBaldybonce
    DaveMehmet said:

    Covered End said:

    MuttleyCAFC said:

    But the argument is whether disagreeing with Gay marriage is in itself a form of sexual discrimination. I suppose a lot of people hold this view sadly and we have only recently had the law change to allow it so it maybe doesn't feel like discrimination yet. What if the cake said support inter-racial marriage?

    "The bakers were not obliged to supply a cake iced with a message with which they profoundly disagreed."

    Quite right too.
    Muttley I believe you own a printing business.
    Surely, you have the right to refuse to print something you profoundly disagree with ?
    Submit a proof for Palace Ultra calling cards to find out.
    And thank God for an r.
  • MuttleyCAFCMuttleyCAFC
    I do understand what people are saying, but my point is - what is the difference between being against gay people marrying and people of different races marrying? Had their religion forbidden inter-racial marriage, would it be acceptable to refuse?
  • MuttleyCAFCMuttleyCAFC
    There is a point that I'm sure the next bakery he approached would have baked it. It was probably no coincidence this bakery was asked to do it. It was probably done to make a point. Religion is a difficult subject to tackle though. If some ardent muslims are against women's equality, should we allow them to act in ways to surpress women? Maybe there is an argument that we do to a certain extent.
  • Covered EndCovered End
    MuttleyCAFC said:

    I do understand what people are saying, but my point is - what is the difference between being against gay people marrying and people of different races marrying? Had their religion forbidden inter-racial marriage, would it be acceptable to refuse?

    Yes, I already answered that at 3.37PM, when you asked pretty much the same sort of question.

    "The bakers were not obliged to supply a cake iced with a message with which they profoundly disagreed."
  • smudge7946smudge7946
    Was it a fairy cake?
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