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The influence of the EU on Britain.

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  • bobmunro said:

    This is big news, surely? I would have expected this to be on the BBC News homepage.

    Not now...Michael Fallon has just re-signed.
  • stonemuse said:

    @PragueAddick I am sure I said somewhere in my numerous posts that it is all down to negotiation. And by that, I mean both sides benefit.

    I think you know full well that if I had ignored ‘the other side of the table’ in my career, it would have been short-lived.

    That is never the way I approach things - it has to be mutually beneficial. In addition, the Brits I have worked with over the years do not have this apparent ‘typical British failure’ ... I find that quite insulting and demeaning.

    No one would last long in international trade with such an outlook and approach.

    Unfortunately mate, the situation is not in the hands of experienced professionals like you. It is in the hands of Davies, Johnson and Fox. They are strutting around, giving the more gullible voters the entirely false impression that negotiating trade deals with the likes of India will be a breeze. It might be do-able but it will not be a breeze. They totally fail to acknowledge that modern India has pragmatic priorities based on market size. And invoking the Commonwealth is probably the last thing we want to do.

    Here is an article covering Norway's attitude to the UK joining EFTA.

  • bobmunro said:

    This is big news, surely? I would have expected this to be on the BBC News homepage.

    As long as they make it a HYS story. Love those. Makes the brexit thread here seem like the musings of Nietzsche and Wilde
  • bobmunro said:

    This is big news, surely? I would have expected this to be on the BBC News homepage.

    Not now they’ve been told they’re derailing our chances of a Brexit deal
  • bobmunro said:

    This is big news, surely? I would have expected this to be on the BBC News homepage.

    We-e-e-ll, like last week's opposition day debate on Universal Credit, it's the result of the Government whipping their MPs to abstain, presumably so they can argue it's not actually binding (hence Faisal's second tweet). So I wouldn't get overexcited just yet, and given Fallon's resignation, it may get lost in the reshuffle speculation.
  • Especially for @E-cafc - actual data on the economy, as opposed to the PMI which, while useful, is simply a barometer of how a small group of people are feeling. Might be more likely, therefore, to affect feelings about sterling.

    You're welcome

    https://twitter.com/JamesMelville
  • @seriously_red "Quite simply, it's nothing to do with lack of democracy and everything to do with Moral Hazard. For if Greece had secured debt forgiveness then populists would walk the floor in the Italian and Spanish elections, crash their economies and probably crash the Euro too."

    I am not taking a view on what Varoufakis should have expected. It's a view on how Varoufakis illuminates EU control through empowered functionaries, rather than the outcome of any effective debate.

    Greece was never going to be able to deliver the financial demands and the austerity programme imposed on it was draconian. Varoufakis simply wanted acknowledgement that he had a mandate from the people to present an alternative austerity programme that Greece could deliver, which allowed a budget surplus to be targeted and was in the interests if Greece's creditors. The EU never gave him that opportunity even though Varoufakis was not so stupid as not to have previously obtained support from leading economists, the major stakeholders, including the IMF, the major EU Finance Ministers, the ECB and even Junckers that his proposals were sound, and that the original Schrauble plans had been a failure and were untenable. These parties turned out to have no effective power to limit Schauble's absolute control through his ability to misuse and abuse protocol.

    I suggest you read the book. Varafoukis was not asking for "debt forgiveness" clearly the media briefings that were organised against him have had the desired effect. If it had been correctly reported it would have been "austerity forgiveness" he was seeking in return for long dated bonds replacing crippling loan repayments that would never be manageable without space to grow the economy.

    The Eurozone will inevitably crash at some point in time unless full monetary and political union is achieved. It will survive through implementation of Macon and other EU nation Ministers' entirely sensible objective of "closer union" i.e the European Central bank under political control of the EU. The Greek crisis only arose because the monetary union was created without political union, and that was not because it was a mistake, it was because it was a necessary stepping stone given a leap into full monetary and political union in one step would not have been possible.

    It is difficult to conceive of the UK being outside the Eurozone with full monetary and political union, yet still within the EU. EFTA would in that scenario look much more practical. Promotion of EFTA by Remainers who are anti Eurozone I accept makes sense, even if for different reasons.

    We are on the same page re. The Eurozone journey. And that's a very different place to many others, on left and right.

    The paradox with Greece is that they simply needed lower rates and ensure longer dated bonds to deliver stability and lower costs to their budget. However one should be extremely clear about Mr. Varoufakis: "He argued that the only honest route forward was a write-down of large amounts of the debt, admitting that this money was lost. After a write-down, which would free Greece of onerous interest payments, the country could get back on a course of stable growth." And that quote is from a review of his book, not press releases from the Troika!

    His strategy and that of Syriza was always to threaten default and leaving the Euro if concessions were not granted. As per my original post, that was never going to work because concessions to Greece would have led to populist victory in Italy where the numbers are f**king serious! We are talking €2Trn of debt!

    Hopefully what we can all see from witnessing Greece and absorbing the experience of Varoufakis is that walking into a negotiation with the EU27 threatening "no deal" isn't going to get the UK anywhere. Today is the same as yesterday - EFTA/CU/SM membership for a few years is the safest way to defuse and de-risk the situation.

    Many on this board get it; the public have lost confidence in May and Davis; and every week revelations point towards the fact that a "hard Brexit" is not such a great idea.
  • edited November 2017
    Chizz said:

    se9addick said:
    There was a discussion about this on nick ferrari show this morning, and the banking 'expert' who is on every day, totally dismissed these figures. Banks shed thousands of jobs every year and have done since the year dot. Can't recall ever reading it here before or anyone who was bothered before.

    Its cold outside..... Blame brexit.
    Do you mean Nick Ferrari that well known pinko liberal who sits just to the right of Ghengis Khan ? Shock horror that he comes up with someone on his show to cast doubt onto the figures.

    The guy is on his show every day and is fair minded. At least Ferrari is fair and reasonable not like that other berk who comes on after him, who tells the most blatant lies and only gets his researchers to get lame ducks on whom he can bully.

    Anyway thought you handshaked to ignore me. Didn't last long.
    I like James O'Brien. I guess LBC do too, because he's delivered huge growth in listening numbers at that timeslot; and they've given him a hefty new contract.

    But, I have a question for you @Chippycafc - exactly what "blatant lies" has he told on air? Obviously I wouldn't ask you to name them all (because, if you're right and, as he's on air fifteen hours a week, there could be a lot of them). So, what are the top five "blatant lies" he has told? Specifically.

    It would be good to be able to draw up a list in order to furnish a complaint to LBC, the Dept for CMS and Rajar if he does tell "blatant lies"; but if not, maybe you might want to consider whether to withdraw what would be a libellous comment?

    What do you think @Chippycafc - do you have a list of "blatant lies" that backs up your accusation?
    Hi @Chippycafc - how are you getting on with the list of "blatant lies" that top radio and tv presenter, journalist and podcaster James O'Brien has told on air?

    Please don't go to too much trouble: five would be broadly sufficient to draw up a complaint. I hope you're not spending too much time drawing up a longer list than that.

    It doesn't even have to be the biggest "blatant lies". But as you haven't gone back and corrected your post you must be completely confident you're right. So, give us five absolute whoppers he's told on air. If you can.
  • I listen to quite a lot of lbc. Brexit must be a dream for them. But all the presenters build up their case get someone on to support their view and then a few calls later get an opposite opinion and try to tear them to shreds and phase them out. Bit like here really. Job is probably worst but farage is the same.

    Actually preferred the week with peston jrm and others.
  • LBC is a low budget commercial station which has made the most of the Brexit opportunity, so to that extent I agree with @Imissthepeanutman . Fortunately there is an alternative for grown ups and next week BBC Radio 4 will run Series 2 of "Brexit - A Guide for the Perplexed". The presenter said that they had expected to prepare this series earlier in the year, assuming that the actual shape of Brexit would be clear by then. Of course it isn't, so they have decided to run with Series 2 now, and I suppose there will be a Series 3 next year.

    Unlikely to produce excitable tweets, but I think there will be decent fact based material that many of us are well capable of robustly debating on here on the merits of what we hear.
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  • Bit barbed with the 'grown ups' reference @PragueAddick

    There is also Alex salmond and maajid nawaz so I would say something for everyone even if 'facts' are a bit short on the ground.

    I recall job saying that he found the BBC slightly frustrating always having to provide two opposing viewpoints for reasons of balance when clearly the argument was in his opinion more one sided.
  • edited November 2017
    I enjoy LBC but it is what it is; opinionated host who is able to control the direction and tone of the argument. There is not much in the way of real analysis, mostly pundits and callers giving their views and anecdotal evidence to back it up. The more controversial/thick their callers in are, the better. I can see why certain people have a problem with JOB but it seems to stem purely from him being a Remainer as beyond that no one is able to point out why he is worse than say Farage or Ferrari. People claim he lies or calls Leavers thick but I think that's just in your head, doesn't seem to have actually happened in real life.

    I remember a few months ago Ferrari had Frances O'Grady on. Frances was making some very powerful points regarding the heads of transport companies awarding themselves higher and higher bonuses and pay packets, being subsidised by the taxpayer, against a backdrop of strikes, terrible service and public sector pay freezes. Nick refused to address any of her concerns and simply repeated over and over again 'well you're on a six figure salary so you have no right to complain about how much anyone else gets paid'. He's not a very bright man.
  • Fiiish said:

    I enjoy LBC but it is what it is; opinionated host who is able to control the direction and tone of the argument. There is not much in the way of real analysis, mostly pundits and callers giving their views and anecdotal evidence to back it up. The more controversial/thick their callers in are, the better. I can see why certain people have a problem with JOB but it seems to stem purely from him being a Remainer as beyond that no one is able to point out why he is worse than say Farage or Ferrari. People claim he lies or calls Leavers thick but I think that's just in your head, doesn't seem to have actually happened in real life.

    I remember a few months ago Ferrari had Frances O'Grady on. Frances was making some very powerful points regarding the heads of transport companies awarding themselves higher and higher bonuses and pay packets, being subsidised by the taxpayer, against a backdrop of strikes, terrible service and public sector pay freezes. Nick refused to address any of her concerns and simply repeated over and over again 'well you're on a six figure salary so you have no right to complain about how much anyone else gets paid'. He's not a very bright man.

    I too enjoy LBC but I think you might be at least a little wrong about Nick Ferrari. Despite his ancestral links he epitomises a “little englander” and the worst aspects of right of centre views.

    He’s opinionated and pig headed. Fails to understand that despite his very obvious talent and hard work much of his success is because of who he knows not what he knows. Father was a journalist and he got his breaks at least in part because of that. He has a view on everything and if it doesn’t fit in with his take on the world he uses his show to crush it. He’s really not at all aware that he’s a bully.

    Stupid he ain’t.

  • edited November 2017
    He's not smart enough to make an argument on the merits of the case and resorts to either ad hominem attacks or straw mans. It plays well with his intended audience (little Englanders) but he doesn't come across as very adroit to anyone else.
  • Not at all keen on Ferrari, but I think it is true to say that James O'Brien's father was a journalist too.
  • Bit barbed with the 'grown ups' reference @PragueAddick

    There is also Alex salmond and maajid nawaz so I would say something for everyone even if 'facts' are a bit short on the ground.

    I recall job saying that he found the BBC slightly frustrating always having to provide two opposing viewpoints for reasons of balance when clearly the argument was in his opinion more one sided.

    I make no apologies for that barbed comment either. It depresses me that virtually every day someone posts some comment that has appeared on LBC, but I am alone in regularly referring to information I have learnt from Radio 4. You yourself made a barbed comment about the quality of debate on this thread, as you see it. Perhaps the two things are connected. I know it reflects the age we live in, but it doesn't alter the truth. To join in an informed debate, one has to be informed.
  • seth plum said:

    Not at all keen on Ferrari, but I think it is true to say that James O'Brien's father was a journalist too.

    The difference is Seth that JO’B acknowledges the fact that it was a leg up rather than just the natural state of affairs.
  • Bit barbed with the 'grown ups' reference @PragueAddick

    There is also Alex salmond and maajid nawaz so I would say something for everyone even if 'facts' are a bit short on the ground.

    I recall job saying that he found the BBC slightly frustrating always having to provide two opposing viewpoints for reasons of balance when clearly the argument was in his opinion more one sided.

    I make no apologies for that barbed comment either. It depresses me that virtually every day someone posts some comment that has appeared on LBC, but I am alone in regularly referring to information I have learnt from Radio 4. You yourself made a barbed comment about the quality of debate on this thread, as you see it. Perhaps the two things are connected. I know it reflects the age we live in, but it doesn't alter the truth. To join in an informed debate, one has to be informed.
    Quite right.
  • seth plum said:

    The schism of the age (or one of them) is that there are people who (rightly in my view) are still in the age of enlightenment and go by facts, science, deep thought, information and expert advice.
    Then there are those who simply don't care. We have climate change denial, we have totally talentless talent show contestants outraged they don't progress because they believe wanting it is enough. Folk vote for Trump or Boris because of their bombastic authority and hair rather than for their ideas and skills.
    It is becoming a forlorn exercise for many who want to exercise reason, be
    cause they continually bump up against a growing number of people who don't give a shit about reason, what they desire trumps everything.
    This 'I don't care, just make it so' attitude might even contain a kernel of benefit for the human race in terms of aspiration and striving. Many aspirational and striving folk however think they can fly by duck taping feathers to their arms and flapping them around a lot.
    For those remainers like me on this thread, stop punishing yourselves so much when your attempts at reason fails. Brexiters seem so entrenched simply because they want it so and simply because they don't care.

    An observation that I’ve made myself Seth although never articulated it as well as you have.

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  • An informed debate requires participants who respect facts, experts and the truth just as @seth plum articulates.

    Once upon a time, before the global crash there was little populism and fake news. And the discussions of intellectuals and philosophers which occasionally made an appearance on radio 4 would filter out to other more popular outlets.

    Cameron won the Scottish referendum but then decided to risk turning the world upside down.

    And now we have use and abuse of the web finally being exposed in the US. It's not a new tactic - one simply has to look at the Zinoviev letter published by the Mail. But the speed and volume today is incredible! Not only did Facebook provide a platform for Russian pro Trump propaganda to reach 100 million voters but the Russians then shifted their position to undermine Trump straight after the election.

    People are investigating illegal foreign donations to leave.eu who were part of promoting the leave agenda.

    18 months after the referendum, the polls on immigration are far less rabid and there is actually a slim majority to stay in the single market even when means abandoning attempts to halt freedom of movement.

    We now have a period of calm to investigate possible outcomes - all to play for!
  • Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    se9addick said:
    There was a discussion about this on nick ferrari show this morning, and the banking 'expert' who is on every day, totally dismissed these figures. Banks shed thousands of jobs every year and have done since the year dot. Can't recall ever reading it here before or anyone who was bothered before.

    Its cold outside..... Blame brexit.
    Do you mean Nick Ferrari that well known pinko liberal who sits just to the right of Ghengis Khan ? Shock horror that he comes up with someone on his show to cast doubt onto the figures.

    The guy is on his show every day and is fair minded. At least Ferrari is fair and reasonable not like that other berk who comes on after him, who tells the most blatant lies and only gets his researchers to get lame ducks on whom he can bully.

    Anyway thought you handshaked to ignore me. Didn't last long.
    I like James O'Brien. I guess LBC do too, because he's delivered huge growth in listening numbers at that timeslot; and they've given him a hefty new contract.

    But, I have a question for you @Chippycafc - exactly what "blatant lies" has he told on air? Obviously I wouldn't ask you to name them all (because, if you're right and, as he's on air fifteen hours a week, there could be a lot of them). So, what are the top five "blatant lies" he has told? Specifically.

    It would be good to be able to draw up a list in order to furnish a complaint to LBC, the Dept for CMS and Rajar if he does tell "blatant lies"; but if not, maybe you might want to consider whether to withdraw what would be a libellous comment?

    What do you think @Chippycafc - do you have a list of "blatant lies" that backs up your accusation?
    Hi @Chippycafc - how are you getting on with the list of "blatant lies" that top radio and tv presenter, journalist and podcaster James O'Brien has told on air?

    Please don't go to too much trouble: five would be broadly sufficient to draw up a complaint. I hope you're not spending too much time drawing up a longer list than that.

    It doesn't even have to be the biggest "blatant lies". But as you haven't gone back and corrected your post you must be completely confident you're right. So, give us five absolute whoppers he's told on air. If you can.
    1. Pensions will crash and people with pensions would be worse off, not after brexit but immediately.
    2. All brexit voters didn't know what they were voting for.
    3. The economy is going to immediatly crash.
    4. He rattled on every other day that brexiters hate immigrants. I suspect he still does.
    5. Blames everything or twists it around brexit.

    And who put you in charge...

    Tell me 5 decent things about him.
  • Another one his disgraceful lie about frank lampard moving out of his big house and putting his partner and kids in a smaller house while he moved his mistress in. Called him scum and did not have the decency to apologise when frank rang him up after his sisrter heard what he was saying about him.

    Read what james foster has to say sbout him.... Perfectly sums him up.
  • edited November 2017
    A reported 90% drop in applications by EU nurses to work in this country. And a big rise in EU nurses leaving jobs over here. Can't be good news for the NHS and care homes can it? Or are we hoping that suddenly UK people will decide they want a career in nursing or caring?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/02/number-eu-nurses-registering-work-britain-falls-90-per-cent/
  • edited November 2017
    Stig said:

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    se9addick said:
    There was a discussion about this on nick ferrari show this morning, and the banking 'expert' who is on every day, totally dismissed these figures. Banks shed thousands of jobs every year and have done since the year dot. Can't recall ever reading it here before or anyone who was bothered before.

    Its cold outside..... Blame brexit.
    Do you mean Nick Ferrari that well known pinko liberal who sits just to the right of Ghengis Khan ? Shock horror that he comes up with someone on his show to cast doubt onto the figures.

    The guy is on his show every day and is fair minded. At least Ferrari is fair and reasonable not like that other berk who comes on after him, who tells the most blatant lies and only gets his researchers to get lame ducks on whom he can bully.

    Anyway thought you handshaked to ignore me. Didn't last long.
    I like James O'Brien. I guess LBC do too, because he's delivered huge growth in listening numbers at that timeslot; and they've given him a hefty new contract.

    But, I have a question for you @Chippycafc - exactly what "blatant lies" has he told on air? Obviously I wouldn't ask you to name them all (because, if you're right and, as he's on air fifteen hours a week, there could be a lot of them). So, what are the top five "blatant lies" he has told? Specifically.

    It would be good to be able to draw up a list in order to furnish a complaint to LBC, the Dept for CMS and Rajar if he does tell "blatant lies"; but if not, maybe you might want to consider whether to withdraw what would be a libellous comment?

    What do you think @Chippycafc - do you have a list of "blatant lies" that backs up your accusation?
    Hi @Chippycafc - how are you getting on with the list of "blatant lies" that top radio and tv presenter, journalist and podcaster James O'Brien has told on air?

    Please don't go to too much trouble: five would be broadly sufficient to draw up a complaint. I hope you're not spending too much time drawing up a longer list than that.

    It doesn't even have to be the biggest "blatant lies". But as you haven't gone back and corrected your post you must be completely confident you're right. So, give us five absolute whoppers he's told on air. If you can.
    1. Pensions will crash and people with pensions would be worse off, not after brexit but immediately.
    2. All brexit voters didn't know what they were voting for.
    3. The economy is going to immediatly crash.
    4. He rattled on every other day that brexiters hate immigrants. I suspect he still does.
    5. Blames everything or twists it around brexit.

    And who put you in charge...

    Tell me 5 decent things about him.
    Don't know about the others, but that one is definitely true. Nobody had a clue. Not you, not me, not anybody else. That is precisely why there was all the 'Brexit means Brexit' claptrap as May tried to bluff her way though the uncomfortable fact that nobody had clue what it meant.
    That list of yours is just a list of what you perceive not a list of his lies is it . By way of example. How is number 5 a lie ? Unless you mean he doesn’t blame or twists everything around Brexit.

    In any case you think O’Brien is a liar and that’s view to which you are entitled.

  • Nadou said:

    A reported 90% drop in applications by EU nurses to work in this country. And a big rise in EU nurses leaving jobs over here. Can't be good news for the NHS and care homes can it? Or are we hoping that suddenly UK people will decide they want a career in nursing or caring?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/02/number-eu-nurses-registering-work-britain-falls-90-per-cent/

    Coupled with the fact that they have removed bursaries for nursing students, we are going to have to get creative.
  • Another one his disgraceful lie about frank lampard moving out of his big house and putting his partner and kids in a smaller house while he moved his mistress in. Called him scum and did not have the decency to apologise when frank rang him up after his sisrter heard what he was saying about him.

    Read what james foster has to say sbout him.... Perfectly sums him up.

    O'Brien was repeating the story from your favorite paper
    Lampard comes across really well when calls O'Brien out on it
  • Stig said:

    Chizz said:

    Chizz said:

    se9addick said:
    There was a discussion about this on nick ferrari show this morning, and the banking 'expert' who is on every day, totally dismissed these figures. Banks shed thousands of jobs every year and have done since the year dot. Can't recall ever reading it here before or anyone who was bothered before.

    Its cold outside..... Blame brexit.
    Do you mean Nick Ferrari that well known pinko liberal who sits just to the right of Ghengis Khan ? Shock horror that he comes up with someone on his show to cast doubt onto the figures.

    The guy is on his show every day and is fair minded. At least Ferrari is fair and reasonable not like that other berk who comes on after him, who tells the most blatant lies and only gets his researchers to get lame ducks on whom he can bully.

    Anyway thought you handshaked to ignore me. Didn't last long.
    I like James O'Brien. I guess LBC do too, because he's delivered huge growth in listening numbers at that timeslot; and they've given him a hefty new contract.

    But, I have a question for you @Chippycafc - exactly what "blatant lies" has he told on air? Obviously I wouldn't ask you to name them all (because, if you're right and, as he's on air fifteen hours a week, there could be a lot of them). So, what are the top five "blatant lies" he has told? Specifically.

    It would be good to be able to draw up a list in order to furnish a complaint to LBC, the Dept for CMS and Rajar if he does tell "blatant lies"; but if not, maybe you might want to consider whether to withdraw what would be a libellous comment?

    What do you think @Chippycafc - do you have a list of "blatant lies" that backs up your accusation?
    Hi @Chippycafc - how are you getting on with the list of "blatant lies" that top radio and tv presenter, journalist and podcaster James O'Brien has told on air?

    Please don't go to too much trouble: five would be broadly sufficient to draw up a complaint. I hope you're not spending too much time drawing up a longer list than that.

    It doesn't even have to be the biggest "blatant lies". But as you haven't gone back and corrected your post you must be completely confident you're right. So, give us five absolute whoppers he's told on air. If you can.
    1. Pensions will crash and people with pensions would be worse off, not after brexit but immediately.
    2. All brexit voters didn't know what they were voting for.
    3. The economy is going to immediatly crash.
    4. He rattled on every other day that brexiters hate immigrants. I suspect he still does.
    5. Blames everything or twists it around brexit.

    And who put you in charge...

    Tell me 5 decent things about him.
    Don't know about the others, but that one is definitely true. Nobody had a clue. Not you, not me, not anybody else. That is precisely why there was all the 'Brexit means Brexit' claptrap as May tried to bluff her way though the uncomfortable fact that nobody had clue what it meant.
    Well your bound to say as you have the same view as him...

    He's attacked Nigel Farage personally and brought his wife into it, I listen to Nigels show every night when I can and I have never heard him do the same, same with Katie Hopkins...

    He will never invite anyone on his show whose gun is loaded the same as his, if you start getting the better of him he just talks over you and cuts you off, that's why his researchers, brief callers before he accepts them.
  • Another one his disgraceful lie about frank lampard moving out of his big house and putting his partner and kids in a smaller house while he moved his mistress in. Called him scum and did not have the decency to apologise when frank rang him up after his sisrter heard what he was saying about him.

    Read what james foster has to say sbout him.... Perfectly sums him up.

    O'Brien was repeating the story from your favorite paper
    Lampard comes across really well when calls O'Brien out on it
    I don't have a favourite paper....don't buy them or read them....as all the posters here who hate them send links to them every day.
This discussion has been closed.

Roland Out Forever!