Break the whole Bexit debacle to its very basics. Your a member of a bowls/snooker club and you don't like the rules, you don't like the subscriptions and you think you be better off playing for another club. BUT - you'd still like to play against the people of your choosing, on the days you want to play. You don't want to abide by the rules or pay the subscriptions. When they reject your generous proposals you accuse them of being disrespectful. Unbelievable.
This is what I have said all along too John, and it was the basis of my comment to Blackpool about his grasp on reality. And indeed his other little helpers as it turns out.
The EU are not leaving Britain, Britain is leaving the EU. How is that so difficult for some people to understand?
All the points that Blackpool came up with have been dissected and rubbished before, and Nornirish has taken the time and trouble to do it again and explain why on every point he is wrong, I am wiling to bet that Blackpool still wont grasp it.
And no doubt in five or six pages time one of them will repeat the same old bullshit again. What is the point in coming up with responses to the nonsense when it is ignored? I can't be bothered to keep repeating the same answers over and over to people with their eyes shut and their fingers in theirs ears, so I choose to sum up the actual reality in one sentence.
Firstly there is no need to be rude. I have not been rude to you. Secondly there is nothing wrong with my grasp of reality. We see things differently and that is the purpose of there threads so that we can exchange views. As I have stated before I do not believe that we will be the last country to leave the EU in fact I believe in 10 or 15 years time when it becomes obvious that certain countries are doing far better than others that the whole thing will collapse. Greece for example will never be able to repay their debts to the EU and can only ever start to recover by leaving and coming out of the Euro. When and this is only my opinion of course that it does happen we will be well clear of the chaos that will follow
It's very hard not to be rude when someone else's ill thought out decision has already had a detrimental impact on me personally, and may have an even worse impact in the months to come. However, apologies Blackpool, you are right, I shouldn't be rude - I am sure you are a thoroughly pleasant chap in all other matters.
Going back to the original post that got my feathers so ruffled, as I stated, all the things you say have been knocked back in the past, and now, once again, quite succinctly by Nornirish. So I hope that you can at least understand the frustration of seeing the same opinions being rehashed over and over, then the facts that show the erroneous nature of those opinions being ignored over and over? The bowls club analogy is a good one, the thing that was missing was the commitment you had made to help finance the purchase of more land, that you now want to wash your hands of, despite signing the agreement to do so...
Your belief that we will not be the last country to leave the EU may be right, a few years ago you may well have said the same of Portugal as you are now saying of Greece. Things are going pretty well here now after a few years of austerity, it's not perfect, but as one of the former "PIG" economies, along with the "I" of that acronym, we/they are not heading out of the EU anytime soon. If Ireland and Portugal can recover (to a certain extent) there's only one thing holding Greece back from at least trying - that's Greece having the same half arsed attitude to the EU as half the people in the UK do...
Leaving the Euro/EU wont cancel Greece's debts, and I think maybe one could argue (I'm no economist, so I am happy to be shot down in flames by those that understand these things better than me) that a Greece-free Euro would actually be a stronger currency? Just a thought?
Algarve, with the greatest respect, the people of the UK voted rightly or wrongly, for what they thought was best for the people living in the UK.
The vote was not about what was best for people who used to live in the UK, but have now chosen to live in the Algarve, Prague, Madrid or anywhere else in Europe.
Quite frankly, there should never have been a referendum and I'm sick to death of it all. When a conclusion is reached the 2 alternatives should be put to a public vote.
1 Remain 2 Take the deal offered or a no deal scenario, if that is the only alternative to remaining.
Then we shall be voting on a specific choice and should proceed accordingly.
I am entitled to have the hump that a decision based on exaggeration, lies and stupidity (in some cases) has cost me personally. I don't stop being affected by decisions made by the UK because I don't live there.
Anyway, in fact, the people of the UK voted rightly or wrongly, for what they thought was best for non-foreign people living in the UK...
Personally, I believe moving abroad is higher risk than remaining in the UK.
I've known a number of people that have moved or retired abroad and I have to say I'll never be "brave" enough to do so.
Added to this is that I have no desire to do so.
If you take higher risk decisions then I'm afraid you have to live with the consequences.
Once again, I say this with the greatest respect.
Taking no offence whatsoever here CE, don't worry.
It was not a higher risk, the decision of 37% of the British public has made it a higher risk, a lot of them have made that decision for spurious reasons - see umpteen posts above.
I'm presuming your situation is higher risk than mine. Tbh, whatever the outcome, I'll probably not be unduly affected.
What is your current scenario and worst case scenario ?
What is your unique scenario that makes you immune to the UK crashing out of the EU with a no deal?
I didn't say immune. I said not unduly affected. Retired with guaranteed pensions, savings and own my house with no mortgage. So personally, not unduly affected.
"Probably not duly unaffected" isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of the prosperous, sunny uplands we were promised though, is it?
Swapping "not duly unaffected", albeit caveated with the catch-all "probably" is quite a few rungs down from the nirvana we were shown. The one where Britain was going to forge, full-steam ahead into powerful, wide-reaching trade agreements and use her commercial acumen, skill and power to restore wealth and happiness to the nation's great, diligent and hopeful residents.
Restoring sovereignty (which we already have) and taking back control of our borders (which we won't) and creating our own laws (which we already do) will result in us... wait for it... being not unduly unaffected. Probably.
Once again I would like to gently remind you and others that people who make their home in other EU countries have probably not "left" the UK in the sense that people who emigrated to Oz, the US or China have. Once again in my case:
1. I am, and intend to remain, a UK citizen 2. I pay as much UK income tax as many Lifers on this thread. I should have a say in how that's spent, no? 3. I have fully paid up my NI contribs, so ought to have a say on the State pension front, no? 4. I have family back in Eltham as you know 5. Because they are of modest means, I help my sister with the Uni fees for her kids. So obviously I have strong views on Unis and further educations too, as a result. A voting issue. 6. I came face to face with the elderly care crisis, and shared my experience with you. Again a crucial issue for the ballot box, no. And who knows where I myself might want to spend my final days. 7. I have a football club in London which consumes far too much of my life, still 5-6 games a year in person. 8. I hope you would agree that I am fully engaged with the UK political scene as much as any Lifer on this thread, so however I vote, its as well informed a vote as most people who are UK resident. 9 You might also agree that I am an "active" citizen, the Olympic Stadium thing being an example. How many Lifers are on regular speaking terms with a GLA Mayoral candidate and other AMs?
Now you may say, oh, that's just you, Prague, you are a bit odd. And certainly the last bit I have to concede :-). But there are many many British people with a similar list to mine currently in the EU. You may find that difficult to believe because as you say, it's not something you personally would conceive of doing. Which is also OK. But IMO the island mentality is the reason why many Brits think people like me are "emigrants," or more sadly "traitors". Here on the continent a much higher % of people have a similar life, especially Benelux and Scandis.
Let me put it a different way to you. As you know, a significant number of English people have moved north to Scotland, because they agreed with the political direction of Scotland, and don't mind the weather :-). Depending on wind direction, a flight from Prague can reach London in the same or less time than a flight from Aberdeen, and for much the same fare.
So...what you would you say to me in this context, if Aberdeen rather than Prague is where I had "emigrated" to?
I'd say you were still living in the UK and had not emigrated.
Break the whole Bexit debacle to its very basics. Your a member of a bowls/snooker club and you don't like the rules, you don't like the subscriptions and you think you be better off playing for another club. BUT - you'd still like to play against the people of your choosing, on the days you want to play. You don't want to abide by the rules or pay the subscriptions. When they reject your generous proposals you accuse them of being disrespectful. Unbelievable.
This is what I have said all along too John, and it was the basis of my comment to Blackpool about his grasp on reality. And indeed his other little helpers as it turns out.
The EU are not leaving Britain, Britain is leaving the EU. How is that so difficult for some people to understand?
All the points that Blackpool came up with have been dissected and rubbished before, and Nornirish has taken the time and trouble to do it again and explain why on every point he is wrong, I am wiling to bet that Blackpool still wont grasp it.
And no doubt in five or six pages time one of them will repeat the same old bullshit again. What is the point in coming up with responses to the nonsense when it is ignored? I can't be bothered to keep repeating the same answers over and over to people with their eyes shut and their fingers in theirs ears, so I choose to sum up the actual reality in one sentence.
Firstly there is no need to be rude. I have not been rude to you. Secondly there is nothing wrong with my grasp of reality. We see things differently and that is the purpose of there threads so that we can exchange views. As I have stated before I do not believe that we will be the last country to leave the EU in fact I believe in 10 or 15 years time when it becomes obvious that certain countries are doing far better than others that the whole thing will collapse. Greece for example will never be able to repay their debts to the EU and can only ever start to recover by leaving and coming out of the Euro. When and this is only my opinion of course that it does happen we will be well clear of the chaos that will follow
It's very hard not to be rude when someone else's ill thought out decision has already had a detrimental impact on me personally, and may have an even worse impact in the months to come. However, apologies Blackpool, you are right, I shouldn't be rude - I am sure you are a thoroughly pleasant chap in all other matters.
Going back to the original post that got my feathers so ruffled, as I stated, all the things you say have been knocked back in the past, and now, once again, quite succinctly by Nornirish. So I hope that you can at least understand the frustration of seeing the same opinions being rehashed over and over, then the facts that show the erroneous nature of those opinions being ignored over and over? The bowls club analogy is a good one, the thing that was missing was the commitment you had made to help finance the purchase of more land, that you now want to wash your hands of, despite signing the agreement to do so...
Your belief that we will not be the last country to leave the EU may be right, a few years ago you may well have said the same of Portugal as you are now saying of Greece. Things are going pretty well here now after a few years of austerity, it's not perfect, but as one of the former "PIG" economies, along with the "I" of that acronym, we/they are not heading out of the EU anytime soon. If Ireland and Portugal can recover (to a certain extent) there's only one thing holding Greece back from at least trying - that's Greece having the same half arsed attitude to the EU as half the people in the UK do...
Leaving the Euro/EU wont cancel Greece's debts, and I think maybe one could argue (I'm no economist, so I am happy to be shot down in flames by those that understand these things better than me) that a Greece-free Euro would actually be a stronger currency? Just a thought?
Algarve, with the greatest respect, the people of the UK voted rightly or wrongly, for what they thought was best for the people living in the UK.
The vote was not about what was best for people who used to live in the UK, but have now chosen to live in the Algarve, Prague, Madrid or anywhere else in Europe.
Quite frankly, there should never have been a referendum and I'm sick to death of it all. When a conclusion is reached the 2 alternatives should be put to a public vote.
1 Remain 2 Take the deal offered or a no deal scenario, if that is the only alternative to remaining.
Then we shall be voting on a specific choice and should proceed accordingly.
I am entitled to have the hump that a decision based on exaggeration, lies and stupidity (in some cases) has cost me personally. I don't stop being affected by decisions made by the UK because I don't live there.
Anyway, in fact, the people of the UK voted rightly or wrongly, for what they thought was best for non-foreign people living in the UK...
Personally, I believe moving abroad is higher risk than remaining in the UK.
I've known a number of people that have moved or retired abroad and I have to say I'll never be "brave" enough to do so.
Added to this is that I have no desire to do so.
If you take higher risk decisions then I'm afraid you have to live with the consequences.
Once again, I say this with the greatest respect.
Taking no offence whatsoever here CE, don't worry.
It was not a higher risk, the decision of 37% of the British public has made it a higher risk, a lot of them have made that decision for spurious reasons - see umpteen posts above.
I'm presuming your situation is higher risk than mine. Tbh, whatever the outcome, I'll probably not be unduly affected.
What is your current scenario and worst case scenario ?
What is your unique scenario that makes you immune to the UK crashing out of the EU with a no deal?
I didn't say immune. I said not unduly affected. Retired with guaranteed pensions, savings and own my house with no mortgage. So personally, not unduly affected.
"Probably not duly unaffected" isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of the prosperous, sunny uplands we were promised though, is it?
Swapping "not duly unaffected", albeit caveated with the catch-all "probably" is quite a few rungs down from the nirvana we were shown. The one where Britain was going to forge, full-steam ahead into powerful, wide-reaching trade agreements and use her commercial acumen, skill and power to restore wealth and happiness to the nation's great, diligent and hopeful residents.
Restoring sovereignty (which we already have) and taking back control of our borders (which we won't) and creating our own laws (which we already do) will result in us... wait for it... being not unduly unaffected. Probably.
Great.
I agree and I certainly never claimed any of the above (as far as I can recall). As I've said recently, I'm sick of it all and would vote to remain, right now, just to end it.
Once again I would like to gently remind you and others that people who make their home in other EU countries have probably not "left" the UK in the sense that people who emigrated to Oz, the US or China have. Once again in my case:
1. I am, and intend to remain, a UK citizen 2. I pay as much UK income tax as many Lifers on this thread. I should have a say in how that's spent, no? 3. I have fully paid up my NI contribs, so ought to have a say on the State pension front, no? 4. I have family back in Eltham as you know 5. Because they are of modest means, I help my sister with the Uni fees for her kids. So obviously I have strong views on Unis and further educations too, as a result. A voting issue. 6. I came face to face with the elderly care crisis, and shared my experience with you. Again a crucial issue for the ballot box, no. And who knows where I myself might want to spend my final days. 7. I have a football club in London which consumes far too much of my life, still 5-6 games a year in person. 8. I hope you would agree that I am fully engaged with the UK political scene as much as any Lifer on this thread, so however I vote, its as well informed a vote as most people who are UK resident. 9 You might also agree that I am an "active" citizen, the Olympic Stadium thing being an example. How many Lifers are on regular speaking terms with a GLA Mayoral candidate and other AMs?
Now you may say, oh, that's just you, Prague, you are a bit odd. And certainly the last bit I have to concede :-). But there are many many British people with a similar list to mine currently in the EU. You may find that difficult to believe because as you say, it's not something you personally would conceive of doing. Which is also OK. But IMO the island mentality is the reason why many Brits think people like me are "emigrants," or more sadly "traitors". Here on the continent a much higher % of people have a similar life, especially Benelux and Scandis.
Let me put it a different way to you. As you know, a significant number of English people have moved north to Scotland, because they agreed with the political direction of Scotland, and don't mind the weather :-). Depending on wind direction, a flight from Prague can reach London in the same or less time than a flight from Aberdeen, and for much the same fare.
So...what you would you say to me in this context, if Aberdeen rather than Prague is where I had "emigrated" to?
I'd say you were still living in the UK and had not emigrated.
Well I kind of expected that was what you'd fire back, and assume, perhaps unfairly, that you didn't give much thought to the detail of the case I set out.
So let's discuss it on your own terms. What would then have been your position re my status had Scotland voted for independence in the last referendum (before the Brexit one, of course)?
Anyway, over and out. I'm off to The Swan, followed by the game and then the Joshua fight. I'm sure I'll be doing the same/similar, whether we leave or remain.
Break the whole Bexit debacle to its very basics. Your a member of a bowls/snooker club and you don't like the rules, you don't like the subscriptions and you think you be better off playing for another club. BUT - you'd still like to play against the people of your choosing, on the days you want to play. You don't want to abide by the rules or pay the subscriptions. When they reject your generous proposals you accuse them of being disrespectful. Unbelievable.
This is what I have said all along too John, and it was the basis of my comment to Blackpool about his grasp on reality. And indeed his other little helpers as it turns out.
The EU are not leaving Britain, Britain is leaving the EU. How is that so difficult for some people to understand?
All the points that Blackpool came up with have been dissected and rubbished before, and Nornirish has taken the time and trouble to do it again and explain why on every point he is wrong, I am wiling to bet that Blackpool still wont grasp it.
And no doubt in five or six pages time one of them will repeat the same old bullshit again. What is the point in coming up with responses to the nonsense when it is ignored? I can't be bothered to keep repeating the same answers over and over to people with their eyes shut and their fingers in theirs ears, so I choose to sum up the actual reality in one sentence.
Firstly there is no need to be rude. I have not been rude to you. Secondly there is nothing wrong with my grasp of reality. We see things differently and that is the purpose of there threads so that we can exchange views. As I have stated before I do not believe that we will be the last country to leave the EU in fact I believe in 10 or 15 years time when it becomes obvious that certain countries are doing far better than others that the whole thing will collapse. Greece for example will never be able to repay their debts to the EU and can only ever start to recover by leaving and coming out of the Euro. When and this is only my opinion of course that it does happen we will be well clear of the chaos that will follow
It's very hard not to be rude when someone else's ill thought out decision has already had a detrimental impact on me personally, and may have an even worse impact in the months to come. However, apologies Blackpool, you are right, I shouldn't be rude - I am sure you are a thoroughly pleasant chap in all other matters.
Going back to the original post that got my feathers so ruffled, as I stated, all the things you say have been knocked back in the past, and now, once again, quite succinctly by Nornirish. So I hope that you can at least understand the frustration of seeing the same opinions being rehashed over and over, then the facts that show the erroneous nature of those opinions being ignored over and over? The bowls club analogy is a good one, the thing that was missing was the commitment you had made to help finance the purchase of more land, that you now want to wash your hands of, despite signing the agreement to do so...
Your belief that we will not be the last country to leave the EU may be right, a few years ago you may well have said the same of Portugal as you are now saying of Greece. Things are going pretty well here now after a few years of austerity, it's not perfect, but as one of the former "PIG" economies, along with the "I" of that acronym, we/they are not heading out of the EU anytime soon. If Ireland and Portugal can recover (to a certain extent) there's only one thing holding Greece back from at least trying - that's Greece having the same half arsed attitude to the EU as half the people in the UK do...
Leaving the Euro/EU wont cancel Greece's debts, and I think maybe one could argue (I'm no economist, so I am happy to be shot down in flames by those that understand these things better than me) that a Greece-free Euro would actually be a stronger currency? Just a thought?
Algarve, with the greatest respect, the people of the UK voted rightly or wrongly, for what they thought was best for the people living in the UK.
The vote was not about what was best for people who used to live in the UK, but have now chosen to live in the Algarve, Prague, Madrid or anywhere else in Europe.
Quite frankly, there should never have been a referendum and I'm sick to death of it all. When a conclusion is reached the 2 alternatives should be put to a public vote.
1 Remain 2 Take the deal offered or a no deal scenario, if that is the only alternative to remaining.
Then we shall be voting on a specific choice and should proceed accordingly.
I am entitled to have the hump that a decision based on exaggeration, lies and stupidity (in some cases) has cost me personally. I don't stop being affected by decisions made by the UK because I don't live there.
Anyway, in fact, the people of the UK voted rightly or wrongly, for what they thought was best for non-foreign people living in the UK...
Personally, I believe moving abroad is higher risk than remaining in the UK.
I've known a number of people that have moved or retired abroad and I have to say I'll never be "brave" enough to do so.
Added to this is that I have no desire to do so.
If you take higher risk decisions then I'm afraid you have to live with the consequences.
Once again, I say this with the greatest respect.
Taking no offence whatsoever here CE, don't worry.
It was not a higher risk, the decision of 37% of the British public has made it a higher risk, a lot of them have made that decision for spurious reasons - see umpteen posts above.
I'm presuming your situation is higher risk than mine. Tbh, whatever the outcome, I'll probably not be unduly affected.
What is your current scenario and worst case scenario ?
What is your unique scenario that makes you immune to the UK crashing out of the EU with a no deal?
I didn't say immune. I said not unduly affected. Retired with guaranteed pensions, savings and own my house with no mortgage. So personally, not unduly affected.
"Probably not duly unaffected" isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of the prosperous, sunny uplands we were promised though, is it?
Swapping "not duly unaffected", albeit caveated with the catch-all "probably" is quite a few rungs down from the nirvana we were shown. The one where Britain was going to forge, full-steam ahead into powerful, wide-reaching trade agreements and use her commercial acumen, skill and power to restore wealth and happiness to the nation's great, diligent and hopeful residents.
Restoring sovereignty (which we already have) and taking back control of our borders (which we won't) and creating our own laws (which we already do) will result in us... wait for it... being not unduly unaffected. Probably.
Great.
Not unduly affected...provided you don't need the services of the NHS or care services, mind paying more tax, are happy to pay higher prices for food and are content to see our public services driven even further into the ground.
Once again I would like to gently remind you and others that people who make their home in other EU countries have probably not "left" the UK in the sense that people who emigrated to Oz, the US or China have. Once again in my case:
1. I am, and intend to remain, a UK citizen 2. I pay as much UK income tax as many Lifers on this thread. I should have a say in how that's spent, no? 3. I have fully paid up my NI contribs, so ought to have a say on the State pension front, no? 4. I have family back in Eltham as you know 5. Because they are of modest means, I help my sister with the Uni fees for her kids. So obviously I have strong views on Unis and further educations too, as a result. A voting issue. 6. I came face to face with the elderly care crisis, and shared my experience with you. Again a crucial issue for the ballot box, no. And who knows where I myself might want to spend my final days. 7. I have a football club in London which consumes far too much of my life, still 5-6 games a year in person. 8. I hope you would agree that I am fully engaged with the UK political scene as much as any Lifer on this thread, so however I vote, its as well informed a vote as most people who are UK resident. 9 You might also agree that I am an "active" citizen, the Olympic Stadium thing being an example. How many Lifers are on regular speaking terms with a GLA Mayoral candidate and other AMs?
Now you may say, oh, that's just you, Prague, you are a bit odd. And certainly the last bit I have to concede :-). But there are many many British people with a similar list to mine currently in the EU. You may find that difficult to believe because as you say, it's not something you personally would conceive of doing. Which is also OK. But IMO the island mentality is the reason why many Brits think people like me are "emigrants," or more sadly "traitors". Here on the continent a much higher % of people have a similar life, especially Benelux and Scandis.
Let me put it a different way to you. As you know, a significant number of English people have moved north to Scotland, because they agreed with the political direction of Scotland, and don't mind the weather :-). Depending on wind direction, a flight from Prague can reach London in the same or less time than a flight from Aberdeen, and for much the same fare.
So...what you would you say to me in this context, if Aberdeen rather than Prague is where I had "emigrated" to?
I'd say you were still living in the UK and had not emigrated.
Well I kind of expected that was what you'd fire back, and assume, perhaps unfairly, that you didn't give much thought to the detail of the case I set out.
So let's discuss it on your own terms. What would then have been your position re my status had Scotland voted for independence in the last referendum (before the Brexit one, of course)?
PS, see you on Oct 17, I trust...
Sorry, not avoiding the question, but I'm literally out the door.
Anyway, over and out. I'm off to The Swan, followed by the game and then the Joshua fight. I'm sure I'll be doing the same/similar, whether we leave or remain.
Don't go yet I'm getting ready to put this on the AA thread
Break the whole Bexit debacle to its very basics. Your a member of a bowls/snooker club and you don't like the rules, you don't like the subscriptions and you think you be better off playing for another club. BUT - you'd still like to play against the people of your choosing, on the days you want to play. You don't want to abide by the rules or pay the subscriptions. When they reject your generous proposals you accuse them of being disrespectful. Unbelievable.
This is what I have said all along too John, and it was the basis of my comment to Blackpool about his grasp on reality. And indeed his other little helpers as it turns out.
The EU are not leaving Britain, Britain is leaving the EU. How is that so difficult for some people to understand?
All the points that Blackpool came up with have been dissected and rubbished before, and Nornirish has taken the time and trouble to do it again and explain why on every point he is wrong, I am wiling to bet that Blackpool still wont grasp it.
And no doubt in five or six pages time one of them will repeat the same old bullshit again. What is the point in coming up with responses to the nonsense when it is ignored? I can't be bothered to keep repeating the same answers over and over to people with their eyes shut and their fingers in theirs ears, so I choose to sum up the actual reality in one sentence.
Firstly there is no need to be rude. I have not been rude to you. Secondly there is nothing wrong with my grasp of reality. We see things differently and that is the purpose of there threads so that we can exchange views. As I have stated before I do not believe that we will be the last country to leave the EU in fact I believe in 10 or 15 years time when it becomes obvious that certain countries are doing far better than others that the whole thing will collapse. Greece for example will never be able to repay their debts to the EU and can only ever start to recover by leaving and coming out of the Euro. When and this is only my opinion of course that it does happen we will be well clear of the chaos that will follow
The UK is supposed to be leaving the EU. Not changing or shaping it as it has been doing for over 40 years. The UK is fully aware of what the EU is, and knows which rules apply. It is important that the EU remains itself and consistent with itself, it has no need to offer the UK anything but accept it's departure. The statement made by May yesterday was a kind of realization of this. It isn't that no deal is better than a bad deal so much as there is no deal to be had, because the UK by dint of leaving is saying so.
Once again I would like to gently remind you and others that people who make their home in other EU countries have probably not "left" the UK in the sense that people who emigrated to Oz, the US or China have. Once again in my case:
1. I am, and intend to remain, a UK citizen 2. I pay as much UK income tax as many Lifers on this thread. I should have a say in how that's spent, no? 3. I have fully paid up my NI contribs, so ought to have a say on the State pension front, no? 4. I have family back in Eltham as you know 5. Because they are of modest means, I help my sister with the Uni fees for her kids. So obviously I have strong views on Unis and further educations too, as a result. A voting issue. 6. I came face to face with the elderly care crisis, and shared my experience with you. Again a crucial issue for the ballot box, no. And who knows where I myself might want to spend my final days. 7. I have a football club in London which consumes far too much of my life, still 5-6 games a year in person. 8. I hope you would agree that I am fully engaged with the UK political scene as much as any Lifer on this thread, so however I vote, its as well informed a vote as most people who are UK resident. 9 You might also agree that I am an "active" citizen, the Olympic Stadium thing being an example. How many Lifers are on regular speaking terms with a GLA Mayoral candidate and other AMs?
Now you may say, oh, that's just you, Prague, you are a bit odd. And certainly the last bit I have to concede :-). But there are many many British people with a similar list to mine currently in the EU. You may find that difficult to believe because as you say, it's not something you personally would conceive of doing. Which is also OK. But IMO the island mentality is the reason why many Brits think people like me are "emigrants," or more sadly "traitors". Here on the continent a much higher % of people have a similar life, especially Benelux and Scandis.
Let me put it a different way to you. As you know, a significant number of English people have moved north to Scotland, because they agreed with the political direction of Scotland, and don't mind the weather :-). Depending on wind direction, a flight from Prague can reach London in the same or less time than a flight from Aberdeen, and for much the same fare.
So...what you would you say to me in this context, if Aberdeen rather than Prague is where I had "emigrated" to?
I'd say you were still living in the UK and had not emigrated.
Well I kind of expected that was what you'd fire back, and assume, perhaps unfairly, that you didn't give much thought to the detail of the case I set out.
So let's discuss it on your own terms. What would then have been your position re my status had Scotland voted for independence in the last referendum (before the Brexit one, of course)?
PS, see you on Oct 17, I trust...
Sorry, not avoiding the question, but I'm literally out the door.
No problem, I am out to, on the way to Berlin. By train, natch.
I would like to ideally ask you ( and anyone else who thinks I ahoukd not be allowed to vote: what, in a mature democracy, is a "citizen"?
Once again I would like to gently remind you and others that people who make their home in other EU countries have probably not "left" the UK in the sense that people who emigrated to Oz, the US or China have. Once again in my case:
1. I am, and intend to remain, a UK citizen 2. I pay as much UK income tax as many Lifers on this thread. I should have a say in how that's spent, no? 3. I have fully paid up my NI contribs, so ought to have a say on the State pension front, no? 4. I have family back in Eltham as you know 5. Because they are of modest means, I help my sister with the Uni fees for her kids. So obviously I have strong views on Unis and further educations too, as a result. A voting issue. 6. I came face to face with the elderly care crisis, and shared my experience with you. Again a crucial issue for the ballot box, no. And who knows where I myself might want to spend my final days. 7. I have a football club in London which consumes far too much of my life, still 5-6 games a year in person. 8. I hope you would agree that I am fully engaged with the UK political scene as much as any Lifer on this thread, so however I vote, its as well informed a vote as most people who are UK resident. 9 You might also agree that I am an "active" citizen, the Olympic Stadium thing being an example. How many Lifers are on regular speaking terms with a GLA Mayoral candidate and other AMs?
Now you may say, oh, that's just you, Prague, you are a bit odd. And certainly the last bit I have to concede :-). But there are many many British people with a similar list to mine currently in the EU. You may find that difficult to believe because as you say, it's not something you personally would conceive of doing. Which is also OK. But IMO the island mentality is the reason why many Brits think people like me are "emigrants," or more sadly "traitors". Here on the continent a much higher % of people have a similar life, especially Benelux and Scandis.
Let me put it a different way to you. As you know, a significant number of English people have moved north to Scotland, because they agreed with the political direction of Scotland, and don't mind the weather :-). Depending on wind direction, a flight from Prague can reach London in the same or less time than a flight from Aberdeen, and for much the same fare.
So...what you would you say to me in this context, if Aberdeen rather than Prague is where I had "emigrated" to?
I'd say you were still living in the UK and had not emigrated.
Well I kind of expected that was what you'd fire back, and assume, perhaps unfairly, that you didn't give much thought to the detail of the case I set out.
So let's discuss it on your own terms. What would then have been your position re my status had Scotland voted for independence in the last referendum (before the Brexit one, of course)?
PS, see you on Oct 17, I trust...
Sorry, not avoiding the question, but I'm literally out the door.
No problem, I am out to, on the way to Berlin. By train, natch.
I would like to ideally ask you ( and anyone else who thinks I ahoukd not be allowed to vote: what, in a mature democracy, is a "citizen"?
CE is winding you up Prague, you've explained dozens of times on CL before
Once again I would like to gently remind you and others that people who make their home in other EU countries have probably not "left" the UK in the sense that people who emigrated to Oz, the US or China have. Once again in my case:
1. I am, and intend to remain, a UK citizen 2. I pay as much UK income tax as many Lifers on this thread. I should have a say in how that's spent, no? 3. I have fully paid up my NI contribs, so ought to have a say on the State pension front, no? 4. I have family back in Eltham as you know 5. Because they are of modest means, I help my sister with the Uni fees for her kids. So obviously I have strong views on Unis and further educations too, as a result. A voting issue. 6. I came face to face with the elderly care crisis, and shared my experience with you. Again a crucial issue for the ballot box, no. And who knows where I myself might want to spend my final days. 7. I have a football club in London which consumes far too much of my life, still 5-6 games a year in person. 8. I hope you would agree that I am fully engaged with the UK political scene as much as any Lifer on this thread, so however I vote, its as well informed a vote as most people who are UK resident. 9 You might also agree that I am an "active" citizen, the Olympic Stadium thing being an example. How many Lifers are on regular speaking terms with a GLA Mayoral candidate and other AMs?
Now you may say, oh, that's just you, Prague, you are a bit odd. And certainly the last bit I have to concede :-). But there are many many British people with a similar list to mine currently in the EU. You may find that difficult to believe because as you say, it's not something you personally would conceive of doing. Which is also OK. But IMO the island mentality is the reason why many Brits think people like me are "emigrants," or more sadly "traitors". Here on the continent a much higher % of people have a similar life, especially Benelux and Scandis.
Let me put it a different way to you. As you know, a significant number of English people have moved north to Scotland, because they agreed with the political direction of Scotland, and don't mind the weather :-). Depending on wind direction, a flight from Prague can reach London in the same or less time than a flight from Aberdeen, and for much the same fare.
So...what you would you say to me in this context, if Aberdeen rather than Prague is where I had "emigrated" to?
I'd say you were still living in the UK and had not emigrated.
Well I kind of expected that was what you'd fire back, and assume, perhaps unfairly, that you didn't give much thought to the detail of the case I set out.
So let's discuss it on your own terms. What would then have been your position re my status had Scotland voted for independence in the last referendum (before the Brexit one, of course)?
PS, see you on Oct 17, I trust...
Sorry, not avoiding the question, but I'm literally out the door.
No problem, I am out to, on the way to Berlin. By train, natch.
I would like to ideally ask you ( and anyone else who thinks I ahoukd not be allowed to vote: what, in a mature democracy, is a "citizen"?
By 'anyone else' I assume you mean the supreme court?
One of the tendentious things that has surfaced in the last couple of pages is the assertion that May is or was a "Remainer". She isn't really, and that is the problem. She hardly said a word in the run up to the referendum. She is just one of those Tories who doesn't really like the EU but couldn't see a better practical alternative that could keep the Tories in power (always remember that objective). A proper Remainer politician is one who likes and respects our neigbouring countries generally, believes in co-operation and sees the benefits of it. Within the Tory party they have usually been in the past "One Nation Tories" people who don't fall under the spell of self-serving hard right dogma and theories. Unfortunately many of them are dead, or certainly past their political prime (Clarke, Heseltine, Major). The newer serious Remainers like Anna Soubery are currently too lightweight to lead. I cannot even name another than her right now.
May isn't one of them. She is not really a European, she does not understand the mindset of the politicians and peoples of those countries because she has never been that interested in them. Last week's car crash would not have befallen a One Nation Tory because they understand them much better than May does.
But then some people (not just on here), come to the opposite conclusion, that a "true" Brexiteer should have led the talks. They hardly seem to notice that this implies one of the following should be Prime Minister. Leader of the people of the UK:
Boris Johnson Michael Gove Andrea fucking Leadsom or "best" of all, Jacob Rees-Mogg.
and with that thought I wish us all a nice weekend
I would say that pro-Europe politicians are in short supply in this country because they have only a small constituency to work with. Most Remainers of my acquaintance see the EU as a necessary evil at best. Outright pro-Europeans like Clegg and his Party have only a very small minority supporting them.
After 2 years of car crash developments there is still no sign that either main Party will adopt a Remain position. As a Leaver I think this is to be regretted as it means there can be no easy way of resolving the impasse. A Gove led ( and I think he did a great deal of good to our education system, by the way) Tory Party versus an Umumma Labour Party would offer us a clear choice.
Just read this shit 3 times to make sure I had read it right. First class AA as my old man was prone to say. Absolute arsehole.
No party wants to be seen as going agaisnt "the will of the people" even if said will has now changed... And that would never be "proved" without another referendum. So we are stuck in some idiotic limbo, as the bus slowly rolls off the cliff, because the driver doesnt want to turn it around because if he does, he knows he'll be sacked
Break the whole Bexit debacle to its very basics. Your a member of a bowls/snooker club and you don't like the rules, you don't like the subscriptions and you think you be better off playing for another club. BUT - you'd still like to play against the people of your choosing, on the days you want to play. You don't want to abide by the rules or pay the subscriptions. When they reject your generous proposals you accuse them of being disrespectful. Unbelievable.
But you are the star player and they can't do without you in the team...mean while the other players are falling out and pretty soon will break up.
Sometimes the team is better off without the star player who arrogantly believes the team cannot perform without him. Thats why the word on the street in France (where I currently am) is they are glad to see the back of us.
As for other players leaving. There will always be misguided souls who believe you can "have your cake and eat it" along with the cherry pickers but the E.U. has provided stability peace and prosperity for 60 years to many of the 28 nations (that includes us) so its difficult to see any other members following our Brexit model.
One of the tendentious things that has surfaced in the last couple of pages is the assertion that May is or was a "Remainer". She isn't really, and that is the problem. She hardly said a word in the run up to the referendum. She is just one of those Tories who doesn't really like the EU but couldn't see a better practical alternative that could keep the Tories in power (always remember that objective). A proper Remainer politician is one who likes and respects our neigbouring countries generally, believes in co-operation and sees the benefits of it. Within the Tory party they have usually been in the past "One Nation Tories" people who don't fall under the spell of self-serving hard right dogma and theories. Unfortunately many of them are dead, or certainly past their political prime (Clarke, Heseltine, Major). The newer serious Remainers like Anna Soubery are currently too lightweight to lead. I cannot even name another than her right now.
May isn't one of them. She is not really a European, she does not understand the mindset of the politicians and peoples of those countries because she has never been that interested in them. Last week's car crash would not have befallen a One Nation Tory because they understand them much better than May does.
But then some people (not just on here), come to the opposite conclusion, that a "true" Brexiteer should have led the talks. They hardly seem to notice that this implies one of the following should be Prime Minister. Leader of the people of the UK:
Boris Johnson Michael Gove Andrea fucking Leadsom or "best" of all, Jacob Rees-Mogg.
and with that thought I wish us all a nice weekend
I would say that pro-Europe politicians are in short supply in this country because they have only a small constituency to work with. Most Remainers of my acquaintance see the EU as a necessary evil at best. Outright pro-Europeans like Clegg and his Party have only a very small minority supporting them.
After 2 years of car crash developments there is still no sign that either main Party will adopt a Remain position. As a Leaver I think this is to be regretted as it means there can be no easy way of resolving the impasse. A Gove led ( and I think he did a great deal of good to our education system, by the way) Tory Party versus an Umumma Labour Party would offer us a clear choice.
Just read this shit 3 times to make sure I had read it right. First class AA as my old man was prone to say. Absolute arsehole.
Just proving as my dad used to say, when you have nothing to say, better to say nothing.
Sorry Tubbs, but that really doesn't make any sense. You can't just reverse the polarity a common insult, it doesn't work like that. The swivel eyed were, are and always be the right wing nutters that pushed for Brexit. No-one else.
Sorry Tubbs, but that really doesn't make any sense. You can't just reverse the polarity a common insult, it doesn't work like that. The swivel eyed were, are and always be the right wing nutters that pushed for Brexit. No-one else.
What doesn't work is you just changing dictionary definitions to prove a point. You can absolutely be a swivel eyed remainer.
Break the whole Bexit debacle to its very basics. Your a member of a bowls/snooker club and you don't like the rules, you don't like the subscriptions and you think you be better off playing for another club. BUT - you'd still like to play against the people of your choosing, on the days you want to play. You don't want to abide by the rules or pay the subscriptions. When they reject your generous proposals you accuse them of being disrespectful. Unbelievable.
Firstly there is no need to be rude. I have not been rude to you. Secondly there is nothing wrong with my grasp of reality. We see things differently and that is the purpose of there threads so that we can exchange views. As I have stated before I do not believe that we will be the last country to leave the EU in fact I believe in 10 or 15 years time when it becomes obvious that certain countries are doing far better than others that the whole thing will collapse. Greece for example will never be able to repay their debts to the EU and can only ever start to recover by leaving and coming out of the Euro. When and this is only my opinion of course that it does happen we will be well clear of the chaos that will follow
It's very hard not to be rude when someone else's ill thought out decision has already had a detrimental impact on me personally, and may have an even worse impact in the months to come. However, apologies Blackpool, you are right, I shouldn't be rude - I am sure you are a thoroughly pleasant chap in all other matters.
Going back to the original post that got my feathers so ruffled, as I stated, all the things you say have been knocked back in the past, and now, once again, quite succinctly by Nornirish. So I hope that you can at least understand the frustration of seeing the same opinions being rehashed over and over, then the facts that show the erroneous nature of those opinions being ignored over and over? The bowls club analogy is a good one, the thing that was missing was the commitment you had made to help finance the purchase of more land, that you now want to wash your hands of, despite signing the agreement to do so...
Your belief that we will not be the last country to leave the EU may be right, a few years ago you may well have said the same of Portugal as you are now saying of Greece. Things are going pretty well here now after a few years of austerity, it's not perfect, but as one of the former "PIG" economies, along with the "I" of that acronym, we/they are not heading out of the EU anytime soon. If Ireland and Portugal can recover (to a certain extent) there's only one thing holding Greece back from at least trying - that's Greece having the same half arsed attitude to the EU as half the people in the UK do...
Leaving the Euro/EU wont cancel Greece's debts, and I think maybe one could argue (I'm no economist, so I am happy to be shot down in flames by those that understand these things better than me) that a Greece-free Euro would actually be a stronger currency? Just a thought?
Algarve, with the greatest respect, the people of the UK voted rightly or wrongly, for what they thought was best for the people living in the UK.
The vote was not about what was best for people who used to live in the UK, but have now chosen to live in the Algarve, Prague, Madrid or anywhere else in Europe.
Quite frankly, there should never have been a referendum and I'm sick to death of it all. When a conclusion is reached the 2 alternatives should be put to a public vote.
1 Remain 2 Take the deal offered or a no deal scenario, if that is the only alternative to remaining.
Then we shall be voting on a specific choice and should proceed accordingly.
I am entitled to have the hump that a decision based on exaggeration, lies and stupidity (in some cases) has cost me personally. I don't stop being affected by decisions made by the UK because I don't live there.
Anyway, in fact, the people of the UK voted rightly or wrongly, for what they thought was best for non-foreign people living in the UK...
Personally, I believe moving abroad is higher risk than remaining in the UK.
I've known a number of people that have moved or retired abroad and I have to say I'll never be "brave" enough to do so.
Added to this is that I have no desire to do so.
If you take higher risk decisions then I'm afraid you have to live with the consequences.
Once again, I say this with the greatest respect.
Taking no offence whatsoever here CE, don't worry.
It was not a higher risk, the decision of 37% of the British public has made it a higher risk, a lot of them have made that decision for spurious reasons - see umpteen posts above.
I'm presuming your situation is higher risk than mine. Tbh, whatever the outcome, I'll probably not be unduly affected.
What is your current scenario and worst case scenario ?
I don't think it was high risk CE. Despite what others have said, moving to another EU country was a breeze. It is a place we had visited umpteen times, we knew the food, the people and the culture. We knew we didn't have to be fluent in the language. We knew we were protected from governmental prejudice by EU law, we knew we would get our full UK pension when we retired and that pension would increase every year because we were part of the EU. We rented for a year just to make sure it was what we wanted, and bought when we decided it was. At every stage we were treated the same as if we had been born in Portugal, because of the EU.
We have an income from the UK, since June 2016 the poor rate of exchange has cost us nearly £3000.
Currently we are in the Portuguese health system, and we have to be treated the same way a Portuguese person would be under law.
Our UK pensions could be frozen once we get them - like they are if you are in Australia or Canada.
The Portuguese could decide that we don't get health care anymore. They could decide that foreign citizens have to leave the country for 24 hours every 60 days, and that non-Portuguese cannot have a bank account (both were the case pre-EU). The latter two are wholey unlikely of course, but the simple fact is once the UK is outside the EU, the Portuguese can do what they want to non-EU citizens.
Now imagine what a vote winner it would be with certain people in Britain if the UK said no more tax credits, health cover, pension rights, schooling for the kids of Polish workers in the UK? Those kind of people exist everywhere, not just in the UK (though I think because of the parliamentary system and the newspapers, they are more prevalent). We could become a target for that kind of prejudice.
Extreme and unlikely scenarios, but not impossible scenarios as they are currently.
Break the whole Bexit debacle to its very basics. Your a member of a bowls/snooker club and you don't like the rules, you don't like the subscriptions and you think you be better off playing for another club. BUT - you'd still like to play against the people of your choosing, on the days you want to play. You don't want to abide by the rules or pay the subscriptions. When they reject your generous proposals you accuse them of being disrespectful. Unbelievable.
This might work better if you added that you are one of only 2 members of the club that have consistently paid more for their subs than you received in benefits, and that since you joined you had donated half a trillion quid in subs.
No wonder they don't want you to leave, (especially all those members who receive more from the club than they pay in) and you would think that rather than posting puerile tweets about cherries on cakes, they might realise the significant contributions you have made to the financial and regulatory upkeep of the club and its members for decades and make more of an effort to sort out the termination of membership.
Sorry Tubbs, but that really doesn't make any sense. You can't just reverse the polarity a common insult, it doesn't work like that. The swivel eyed were, are and always be the right wing nutters that pushed for Brexit. No-one else.
What doesn't work is you just changing dictionary definitions to prove a point. You can absolutely be a swivel eyed remainer.
No, because being swivel eyed is an allusion to two things: 1. Desperately looking for something different so their eyes are everywhere else. 2. The lower average intellect. So switching the insult doesn't work and it's no use pretending it does.
I'm quite happy to be insulted, but I do demand a certain level of creativity with it. So Brexiteers, keep your swivel eyes off our insults.
One of the tendentious things that has surfaced in the last couple of pages is the assertion that May is or was a "Remainer". She isn't really, and that is the problem. She hardly said a word in the run up to the referendum. She is just one of those Tories who doesn't really like the EU but couldn't see a better practical alternative that could keep the Tories in power (always remember that objective). A proper Remainer politician is one who likes and respects our neigbouring countries generally, believes in co-operation and sees the benefits of it. Within the Tory party they have usually been in the past "One Nation Tories" people who don't fall under the spell of self-serving hard right dogma and theories. Unfortunately many of them are dead, or certainly past their political prime (Clarke, Heseltine, Major). The newer serious Remainers like Anna Soubery are currently too lightweight to lead. I cannot even name another than her right now.
May isn't one of them. She is not really a European, she does not understand the mindset of the politicians and peoples of those countries because she has never been that interested in them. Last week's car crash would not have befallen a One Nation Tory because they understand them much better than May does.
But then some people (not just on here), come to the opposite conclusion, that a "true" Brexiteer should have led the talks. They hardly seem to notice that this implies one of the following should be Prime Minister. Leader of the people of the UK:
Boris Johnson Michael Gove Andrea fucking Leadsom or "best" of all, Jacob Rees-Mogg.
and with that thought I wish us all a nice weekend
I would say that pro-Europe politicians are in short supply in this country because they have only a small constituency to work with. Most Remainers of my acquaintance see the EU as a necessary evil at best. Outright pro-Europeans like Clegg and his Party have only a very small minority supporting them.
After 2 years of car crash developments there is still no sign that either main Party will adopt a Remain position. As a Leaver I think this is to be regretted as it means there can be no easy way of resolving the impasse. A Gove led ( and I think he did a great deal of good to our education system, by the way) Tory Party versus an Umumma Labour Party would offer us a clear choice.
Just read this shit 3 times to make sure I had read it right. First class AA as my old man was prone to say. Absolute arsehole.
Just proving as my dad used to say, when you have nothing to say, better to say nothing.
Shut up then with your shite. Clearly your old man had your measure.
Sorry Tubbs, but that really doesn't make any sense. You can't just reverse the polarity a common insult, it doesn't work like that. The swivel eyed were, are and always be the right wing nutters that pushed for Brexit. No-one else.
What doesn't work is you just changing dictionary definitions to prove a point. You can absolutely be a swivel eyed remainer.
No, because being swivel eyed is an allusion to two things: 1. Desperately looking for something different so their eyes are everywhere else. 2. The lower average intellect. So switching the insult doesn't work and it's no use pretending it does.
I'm quite happy to be insulted, but I do demand a certain level of creativity with it. So Brexiteers, keep your swivel eyes off our insults.
I literally linked two separate dictionaries that give the same definition:
1.1 Holding or expressing political views regarded as extreme or fanatical.
Break the whole Bexit debacle to its very basics. Your a member of a bowls/snooker club and you don't like the rules, you don't like the subscriptions and you think you be better off playing for another club. BUT - you'd still like to play against the people of your choosing, on the days you want to play. You don't want to abide by the rules or pay the subscriptions. When they reject your generous proposals you accuse them of being disrespectful. Unbelievable.
But you are the star player and they can't do without you in the team...mean while the other players are falling out and pretty soon will break up.
Sometimes the team is better off without the star player who arrogantly believes the team cannot perform without him. Thats why the word on the street in France (where I currently am) is they are glad to see the back of us.
As for other players leaving. There will always be misguided souls who believe you can "have your cake and eat it" along with the cherry pickers but the E.U. has provided stability peace and prosperity for 60 years to many of the 28 nations (that includes us) so its difficult to see any other members following our Brexit model.
In case you were worried Mrs May did focus on the key challenge of the day.
I assured her, having dined in McDonalds in the UK, USA & France, their beef is locally sourced. You can taste the difference.
Her "special announcement" was a proper piece of prose. Clear, firm, forthright and demanding of respect, but challenges arise.
No.1. It was 18 months late.
No. 2. HMG do not support THE proposal
No. 3. Her party do not support THE proposal
No. 4. Parliament does not support THE proposal
No. 5. THE proposal will not work
No 6. THE proposal still drives a coach & horses through EU competition & trading regulations
It is thus a little awkward to expect the EU to a) take THE proposal seriously b) spend time in modifying it when it undermines their market.
It is an absolute farce. Were the UK government a business you would call in a liquidator.
I respect those who voted for Brexit have a right to express their opinion and use their democratic right to evidence their choice.
It was an advisory referendum. In law it did not have to be implemented. Referenda as per elections are designed to give society an ongoing voice. It is how democracy is supposed to work. Society demographics are ever changing.
Many follow an entire religion based on a bad referendum result once held in Jerusalem. Barabbas or JC.? We are still sorting out the mess even though PP had a casting vote.
Politicians rarely bind themselves to anything beyond their own ambitions yet both main parties in the election undertook to implement the result. No matter what you felt you voted for neither Manifesto committed to a no deal Brexit
I accepted the decision. In the face of no deal I will leave France. I cannot risk not receiving my pension or my French supplied NHS service. Thanks guys appreciate it.
Yes, after taking the risk of learning another language, embracing a culture or two, dealing with clients in 22 countries and across 10 US states, while making 42yrs of UK NI contributions and paying 35yrs of UK tax I can but bow to the wisdom of little England. I am sure Global investors across the world will embrace such wisdom. All hail the Flag. 🇬🇧🇬🇧
I recognise the "project fear" slants during & since the referendum from BOTH campaigns. Scandalous & emotive headlines abound(ed). They distorted the debate. While imposing the Euro, federalisation, unified taxes, a European Army are concerns they are only fears. The UK had the ability to block such initiatives.
At times the debate resembled a playground squabble. Yet as always it will be the bystanders who get dragged into paying the price.
Had I asked you to list, the things you wished to achieve in life for yourself, your family and your society, the factors needed to deliver those aims and the barriers to such aims in a field force diagram where would you position the EU? A positive, a barrier, both or an irrelevance? Could you clarify your position?
The politics of it all have scraped the barrel of self interest, division and rancour. It has been and remains an ugly sight. The world has looked on in a mixture of dismay, bewilderment, and some amusement as "Brits" bumbled & stumbled to offer a coherent position while exposing the deep divides in its society.
The argument if you are a democrat you can but support the departure from the EU has some merit but if I can accept such argument why are others as democrats afraid of giving people another chance to reflect on their choice?
If you are certain of your argument what's the problem? As Chippy asserts nothing has changed. Surely 2016 was not a fluke of circumstance? Do not those who chose to entrust politicians with their vote to leave, now have their answer? They offer nothing but to walk away.
If I ask those who voted to leave the EU to clarify why we should implement a no deal Brexit please tell me you have more than "we voted for it". Such a position is both contentious (in as did we?) and akin to the logic of religious zealots demanding war "cos their "God wills it".
I understand the challenges many across the EU face in their lives. While unemployment is relatively low, millions are poorly paid on inadequate contracts. Levels of inequality in societies across the west are troubling. There are a lot of disenfranchised communities. Where does Brexit meet those challenges?
Where do we go from here?
Pointing fingers in all directions offers no direction. It matters not whose fault it is now. Government has a duty to its citizenry/ residents to protect their well being.
No more pretence. If May argues "to leave without a deal" is the defacto position put it before Parliament or stand aside. Let the cards fall where they may. If she carries the day government needs to invoke measures to limit the impact on those at risk.
If she fails a General Election and a new mandate must come.
Will a new polical landscape emerge? Will true Brexiters step forward to lead? Will a new centrist party and a new left organisation emerge? Time will tell. Will it provide the answers many seek? No
The key challenge will not change.
I respect the rejection of an EU bureaucracy. It is an overly expensive & undemocratic behemoth of a civil service with every cynical aspect of a "Yes, Minister" television portrayal.
Yet whether we directly fund it by EU contribution or not it will determine the standards/ infrastructure of how we trade in their market. To suggest we can strip back such criteria and then sell to their markets is fantasy. Would we allow anyone to sell in our market without meeting our standards? How does that take back control?
The cost of the EU is the price of doing business. That the UK tax payer pays means our industries can trade without specific encumbrance.
You either pay via a club subscription or a specific product/ service tariff. Yet in return for their money (& the employment it brings) global investors sooner or later will call time on paying those business tariffs and explore relocating to where the local EU tax payer pays those costs for them.
Thatcher/ Reagan opened this stable door decades ago. Subsequent governments have left it open. View now the newsnow pages and you will see the business dismay over a no deal Brexit. Note their noise but know the real concern is the ones who simply walk away. In truth you will never know the majority of investor decisions being made behind closed doors.
Global risk managers for months will have a no deal Brexit paragraph on the risks & opportunities. The landscape of the UK economy has been put at risk. Risk does bring opportunity but show me the evidence of the plan, skill set, capacity, financial, human or natural resource to seize & deliver new opportunities.
As per the 1000's of projects which crossed my desk all I have asked for is a compelling plan upon which to invoke such change on the lives of British Citizenry. Overriding it all has to be the evidence of any change of direction can be delivered. The past 2yrs has shown there is absolutely none.
UK PLC has offered nothing than leaping into bed with an eccentric self obsessed USA administration. Taking back control? Really?
Nobody can know exactly the damage leaving the EU will cause in the short, medium and long term well being of an UK where divisions will run deep for years.
The new UKPLC sales pitch could hardly be made against a worse background.
Four fifths of business is ill prepared for a no deal Brexit deal. 15% argue their business will be untenable. How do these people seize new opportunities?
Rightly or wrongly from afar the UK, its component parts, its government, its Parliament, its politicians, its industries and its people across the different demographics and ages has not in living memory ever appeared so divided, xenophobic & unstable.
Break the whole Bexit debacle to its very basics. Your a member of a bowls/snooker club and you don't like the rules, you don't like the subscriptions and you think you be better off playing for another club. BUT - you'd still like to play against the people of your choosing, on the days you want to play. You don't want to abide by the rules or pay the subscriptions. When they reject your generous proposals you accuse them of being disrespectful. Unbelievable.
This might work better if you added that you are one of only 2 members of the club that have consistently paid more for their subs than you received in benefits, and that since you joined you had donated half a trillion quid in subs.
No wonder they don't want you to leave, (especially all those members who receive more from the club than they pay in) and you would think that rather than posting puerile tweets about cherries on cakes, they might realise the significant contributions you have made to the financial and regulatory upkeep of the club and its members for decades and make more of an effort to sort out the termination of membership.
I have to say, whether you view the tweet about the cake from Donald Tusk as puerile or not, it is quite impressive that he has such a command of English language (I'd struggle with jokes or even idioms in French, which is supposed to be the language I can speak - if I spend about a month in a Francophone country).
Mind you, I didn't think it was the worst joke ever tweeted either.
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Swapping "not duly unaffected", albeit caveated with the catch-all "probably" is quite a few rungs down from the nirvana we were shown. The one where Britain was going to forge, full-steam ahead into powerful, wide-reaching trade agreements and use her commercial acumen, skill and power to restore wealth and happiness to the nation's great, diligent and hopeful residents.
Restoring sovereignty (which we already have) and taking back control of our borders (which we won't) and creating our own laws (which we already do) will result in us... wait for it... being not unduly unaffected. Probably.
Great.
As I've said recently, I'm sick of it all and would vote to remain, right now, just to end it.
So let's discuss it on your own terms. What would then have been your position re my status had Scotland voted for independence in the last referendum (before the Brexit one, of course)?
PS, see you on Oct 17, I trust...
I'm sure I'll be doing the same/similar, whether we leave or remain.
Well worth it.
The UK is fully aware of what the EU is, and knows which rules apply.
It is important that the EU remains itself and consistent with itself, it has no need to offer the UK anything but accept it's departure.
The statement made by May yesterday was a kind of realization of this.
It isn't that no deal is better than a bad deal so much as there is no deal to be had, because the UK by dint of leaving is saying so.
I would like to ideally ask you ( and anyone else who thinks I ahoukd not be allowed to vote: what, in a mature democracy, is a "citizen"?
Thats why the word on the street in France (where I currently am) is they are glad to see the back of us.
As for other players leaving.
There will always be misguided souls who believe you can "have your cake and eat it" along with the cherry pickers but the E.U. has provided stability peace and prosperity for 60 years to many of the 28 nations (that includes us) so its difficult to see any other members following our Brexit model.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/swivel-eyed
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/swivel-eyed
No wonder they don't want you to leave, (especially all those members who receive more from the club than they pay in) and you would think that rather than posting puerile tweets about cherries on cakes, they might realise the significant contributions you have made to the financial and regulatory upkeep of the club and its members for decades and make more of an effort to sort out the termination of membership.
I'm quite happy to be insulted, but I do demand a certain level of creativity with it. So Brexiteers, keep your swivel eyes off our insults.
1.1 Holding or expressing political views regarded as extreme or fanatical.
I assured her, having dined in McDonalds in the UK, USA & France, their beef is locally sourced. You can taste the difference.
Her "special announcement" was a proper piece of prose. Clear, firm, forthright and demanding of respect, but challenges arise.
No.1. It was 18 months late.
No. 2. HMG do not support THE proposal
No. 3. Her party do not support THE proposal
No. 4. Parliament does not support THE proposal
No. 5. THE proposal will not work
No 6. THE proposal still drives a coach & horses through EU competition & trading regulations
It is thus a little awkward to expect the EU to a) take THE proposal seriously b) spend time in modifying it when it undermines their market.
It is an absolute farce. Were the UK government a business you would call in a liquidator.
I respect those who voted for Brexit have a right to express their opinion and use their democratic right to evidence their choice.
It was an advisory referendum. In law it did not have to be implemented. Referenda as per elections are designed to give society an ongoing voice. It is how democracy is supposed to work. Society demographics are ever changing.
Many follow an entire religion based on a bad referendum result once held in Jerusalem. Barabbas or JC.? We are still sorting out the mess even though PP had a casting vote.
Politicians rarely bind themselves to anything beyond their own ambitions yet both main parties in the election undertook to implement the result. No matter what you felt you voted for neither Manifesto committed to a no deal Brexit
I accepted the decision. In the face of no deal I will leave France. I cannot risk not receiving my pension or my French supplied NHS service. Thanks guys appreciate it.
Yes, after taking the risk of learning another language, embracing a culture or two, dealing with clients in 22 countries and across 10 US states, while making 42yrs of UK NI contributions and paying 35yrs of UK tax I can but bow to the wisdom of little England. I am sure Global investors across the world will embrace such wisdom. All hail the Flag. 🇬🇧🇬🇧
I recognise the "project fear" slants during & since the referendum from BOTH campaigns. Scandalous & emotive headlines abound(ed). They distorted the debate. While imposing the Euro, federalisation, unified taxes, a European Army are concerns they are only fears. The UK had the ability to block such initiatives.
At times the debate resembled a playground squabble. Yet as always it will be the bystanders who get dragged into paying the price.
Had I asked you to list, the things you wished to achieve in life for yourself, your family and your society, the factors needed to deliver those aims and the barriers to such aims in a field force diagram where would you position the EU? A positive, a barrier, both or an irrelevance? Could you clarify your position?
The politics of it all have scraped the barrel of self interest, division and rancour. It has been and remains an ugly sight. The world has looked on in a mixture of dismay, bewilderment, and some amusement as "Brits" bumbled & stumbled to offer a coherent position while exposing the deep divides in its society.
The argument if you are a democrat you can but support the departure from the EU has some merit but if I can accept such argument why are others as democrats afraid of giving people another chance to reflect on their choice?
If you are certain of your argument what's the problem? As Chippy asserts nothing has changed. Surely 2016 was not a fluke of circumstance? Do not those who chose to entrust politicians with their vote to leave, now have their answer? They offer nothing but to walk away.
If I ask those who voted to leave the EU to clarify why we should implement a no deal Brexit please tell me you have more than "we voted for it". Such a position is both contentious (in as did we?) and akin to the logic of religious zealots demanding war "cos their "God wills it".
I understand the challenges many across the EU face in their lives. While unemployment is relatively low, millions are poorly paid on inadequate contracts. Levels of inequality in societies across the west are troubling. There are a lot of disenfranchised communities. Where does Brexit meet those challenges?
Where do we go from here?
Pointing fingers in all directions offers no direction. It matters not whose fault it is now. Government has a duty to its citizenry/ residents to protect their well being.
No more pretence. If May argues "to leave without a deal" is the defacto position put it before Parliament or stand aside. Let the cards fall where they may. If she carries the day government needs to invoke measures to limit the impact on those at risk.
If she fails a General Election and a new mandate must come.
Will a new polical landscape emerge? Will true Brexiters step forward to lead? Will a new centrist party and a new left organisation emerge? Time will tell. Will it provide the answers many seek? No
The key challenge will not change.
I respect the rejection of an EU bureaucracy. It is an overly expensive & undemocratic behemoth of a civil service with every cynical aspect of a "Yes, Minister" television portrayal.
Yet whether we directly fund it by EU contribution or not it will determine the standards/ infrastructure of how we trade in their market. To suggest we can strip back such criteria and then sell to their markets is fantasy. Would we allow anyone to sell in our market without meeting our standards? How does that take back control?
The cost of the EU is the price of doing business. That the UK tax payer pays means our industries can trade without specific encumbrance.
You either pay via a club subscription or a specific product/ service tariff. Yet in return for their money (& the employment it brings) global investors sooner or later will call time on paying those business tariffs and explore relocating to where the local EU tax payer pays those costs for them.
Thatcher/ Reagan opened this stable door decades ago. Subsequent governments have left it open. View now the newsnow pages and you will see the business dismay over a no deal Brexit. Note their noise but know the real concern is the ones who simply walk away. In truth you will never know the majority of investor decisions being made behind closed doors.
Global risk managers for months will have a no deal Brexit paragraph on the risks & opportunities. The landscape of the UK economy has been put at risk. Risk does bring opportunity but show me the evidence of the plan, skill set, capacity, financial, human or natural resource to seize & deliver new opportunities.
As per the 1000's of projects which crossed my desk all I have asked for is a compelling plan upon which to invoke such change on the lives of British Citizenry. Overriding it all has to be the evidence of any change of direction can be delivered. The past 2yrs has shown there is absolutely none.
UK PLC has offered nothing than leaping into bed with an eccentric self obsessed USA administration. Taking back control? Really?
Nobody can know exactly the damage leaving the EU will cause in the short, medium and long term well being of an UK where divisions will run deep for years.
The new UKPLC sales pitch could hardly be made against a worse background.
Four fifths of business is ill prepared for a no deal Brexit deal. 15% argue their business will be untenable. How do these people seize new opportunities?
Rightly or wrongly from afar the UK, its component parts, its government, its Parliament, its politicians, its industries and its people across the different demographics and ages has not in living memory ever appeared so divided, xenophobic & unstable.
Give a shit or not it is not an attractive look.
Mind you, I didn't think it was the worst joke ever tweeted either.
ifwhen I grow up...