I have said on here recently that I don't mind another Referendum......but I won't ever vote again in any election (GE or local). Don't bother to ask for my vote because you can't deliver what you asked me.
I now truely beleive that Brexit can not be acheived. We can not leave the EU. It is simply not possible unless either ;
1) There is a United Ireland so the border problem is not an issue.
or
2) Some hard nosed Politician does the unthinkable & agrees to (and builds) a hard border between NI & ROI
Probably everything else can be sorted out.....eventually. But the above problem cant. Not now.Maybe in 20 -30 years time perhaps.
I agree Golfie. We have totally been let down by the establishment. When Cameron decided to fuck off, he should have been replaced by someone who truly believed in brexit. We were handed someone who didn’t & is now being laughed at and pushed around by Europe. God knows where this will end up.
The two candidates were Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom.
Leadsom was a strong campaigner for Leave and continues to be strongly pro-Brexit.
What do you think she would have been able to achieve by this point, had she been made Prime Minster?
Probably the most hypothetical I’ve ever been asked. I’ll answer that Chizz if you answer how long a piece of string is 😃
You've suggested that Cameron should have been replace by someone who "truly believed in Brexit" @stop shouting. And you've said that we were "handed" someone who didn't. It seems as if you're suggesting that the UK's failure to carve out an acceptable deal is due to the fact the Prime Minister didn't support Leave. Is that the case? And if so, it's fair to ask to what extent we would be in a less pitiful position now, had we appointed the alternative Prime Minister, ie Andrea Leadsom.
So, if we are in the current parlous state because the Prime Minster supported Remain, what position would we be in if the Prime Minister had bean the Leave-supporting alternative?
I have said on here recently that I don't mind another Referendum......but I won't ever vote again in any election (GE or local). Don't bother to ask for my vote because you can't deliver what you asked me.
I now truely beleive that Brexit can not be acheived. We can not leave the EU. It is simply not possible unless either ;
1) There is a United Ireland so the border problem is not an issue.
or
2) Some hard nosed Politician does the unthinkable & agrees to (and builds) a hard border between NI & ROI
Probably everything else can be sorted out.....eventually. But the above problem cant. Not now.Maybe in 20 -30 years time perhaps.
I agree Golfie. We have totally been let down by the establishment. When Cameron decided to fuck off, he should have been replaced by someone who truly believed in brexit. We were handed someone who didn’t & is now being laughed at and pushed around by Europe. God knows where this will end up.
The two candidates were Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom.
Leadsom was a strong campaigner for Leave and continues to be strongly pro-Brexit.
What do you think she would have been able to achieve by this point, had she been made Prime Minster?
Probably the most hypothetical I’ve ever been asked. I’ll answer that Chizz if you answer how long a piece of string is 😃
You've suggested that Cameron should have been replace by someone who "truly believed in Brexit" @stop shouting. And you've said that we were "handed" someone who didn't. It seems as if you're suggesting that the UK's failure to carve out an acceptable deal is due to the fact the Prime Minister didn't support Leave. Is that the case? And if so, it's fair to ask to what extent we would be in a less pitiful position now, had we appointed the alternative Prime Minister, ie Andrea Leadsom.
So, if we are in the current parlous state because the Prime Minster supported Remain, what position would we be in if the Prime Minister had bean the Leave-supporting alternative?
I assume the alternative might be a leader that was prepared to walk out and walk away.
Brexit was always impossible to deliver and how could it ever have been different when after two years the ruling party still can’t agree with itself let alone with the 27.
On the day that May is trying to convince the EU that we can be trusted to maintain the integrity of food standards and safety within the SM it comes out that one of her ministers is meeting privately with the US and making plans to use his executive powers to open up the UK market to the sort of low grade crappy, unsafe products that are currently banned.
We've been eating McDonald's for donkeys years
Indeed and all their other crap but hey ho,,,selective memories,,,at least it didn't talk about job losses they have lost that argument here now.
Except we haven't though.
We've been part of a trading block that bans products which contain harmful ingredients that cause things like...er...cancer. Or things that lead to poor animal welfare standards and increased risk to us, like washing pig carcasses in lactic acid. Our government appears to be taking proactive steps to allow these products to be sold here because we are desperate for trade.
The EU position is these products will continue to remain banned and have been asking us for many, many months for our solution to how we are going to prevent their export. We don't have one.
Pretending that you can stick a sticker on saying this lamb has been injected with growth hormone and the problem is solved just wont wash. With chlorine or otherwise.
Why is that point too hard to grasp?
See not a single link to the many sources underlining my point...
I have said on here recently that I don't mind another Referendum......but I won't ever vote again in any election (GE or local). Don't bother to ask for my vote because you can't deliver what you asked me.
I now truely beleive that Brexit can not be acheived. We can not leave the EU. It is simply not possible unless either ;
1) There is a United Ireland so the border problem is not an issue.
or
2) Some hard nosed Politician does the unthinkable & agrees to (and builds) a hard border between NI & ROI
Probably everything else can be sorted out.....eventually. But the above problem cant. Not now.Maybe in 20 -30 years time perhaps.
I agree Golfie. We have totally been let down by the establishment. When Cameron decided to fuck off, he should have been replaced by someone who truly believed in brexit. We were handed someone who didn’t & is now being laughed at and pushed around by Europe. God knows where this will end up.
The two candidates were Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom.
Leadsom was a strong campaigner for Leave and continues to be strongly pro-Brexit.
What do you think she would have been able to achieve by this point, had she been made Prime Minster?
Probably the most hypothetical I’ve ever been asked. I’ll answer that Chizz if you answer how long a piece of string is 😃
You've suggested that Cameron should have been replace by someone who "truly believed in Brexit" @stop shouting. And you've said that we were "handed" someone who didn't. It seems as if you're suggesting that the UK's failure to carve out an acceptable deal is due to the fact the Prime Minister didn't support Leave. Is that the case? And if so, it's fair to ask to what extent we would be in a less pitiful position now, had we appointed the alternative Prime Minister, ie Andrea Leadsom.
So, if we are in the current parlous state because the Prime Minster supported Remain, what position would we be in if the Prime Minister had bean the Leave-supporting alternative?
Leadsom would have formed her cabinet of mainly brexiteer’s. For me this is important because I don’t believe we can deliver the brexit the country voted for by people that don’t believe in it. The european negotiators know they are dealing with someone who is playing a weak hand and that’s why they are taking advantage of it. That Instagram put down by Tusk backs that up.
Leadsom has said that she doesnt believe that EU migrants should get preferential access to come to the uk because she would rather see the brightest and best migrants from around the world given the chance to make a contribution to the UK. May’s favoured immigration system does show bias to EU migrants. This is a big point for me and something I believe Leadsom is right on.
I have said on here recently that I don't mind another Referendum......but I won't ever vote again in any election (GE or local). Don't bother to ask for my vote because you can't deliver what you asked me.
I now truely beleive that Brexit can not be acheived. We can not leave the EU. It is simply not possible unless either ;
1) There is a United Ireland so the border problem is not an issue.
or
2) Some hard nosed Politician does the unthinkable & agrees to (and builds) a hard border between NI & ROI
Probably everything else can be sorted out.....eventually. But the above problem cant. Not now.Maybe in 20 -30 years time perhaps.
I agree Golfie. We have totally been let down by the establishment. When Cameron decided to fuck off, he should have been replaced by someone who truly believed in brexit. We were handed someone who didn’t & is now being laughed at and pushed around by Europe. God knows where this will end up.
The two candidates were Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom.
Leadsom was a strong campaigner for Leave and continues to be strongly pro-Brexit.
What do you think she would have been able to achieve by this point, had she been made Prime Minster?
Probably the most hypothetical I’ve ever been asked. I’ll answer that Chizz if you answer how long a piece of string is 😃
You've suggested that Cameron should have been replace by someone who "truly believed in Brexit" @stop shouting. And you've said that we were "handed" someone who didn't. It seems as if you're suggesting that the UK's failure to carve out an acceptable deal is due to the fact the Prime Minister didn't support Leave. Is that the case? And if so, it's fair to ask to what extent we would be in a less pitiful position now, had we appointed the alternative Prime Minister, ie Andrea Leadsom.
So, if we are in the current parlous state because the Prime Minster supported Remain, what position would we be in if the Prime Minister had bean the Leave-supporting alternative?
Leadsom has said that she doesnt believe that EU migrants should get preferential access to come to the uk because she would rather see the brightest and best migrants from around the world given the chance to make a contribution to the UK.
This was my main reason for supporting Brexit, I've seen, numerous times, how hard it is for well educated, talented, non-EU citizen to move to the UK!
Just heard a Tory MP saying she (May) gave a British Bulldog speech!!! Really, only if it was Bulldog chewing a wasp, it was hardly Churchillian!! Once again she is saying look we don't like what you are offering us, so you must change. Again I ask why they should change, WE voted to leave, we are not being thrown out, so why do they need to come up with a compromise, as I said above you reap what you sow, we said we wanted to leave, so although I don't agree with it, (leaving), she should go back to the people and say look this is where we are and offer 3 questions on the ballot paper. Keep the status quo and remain, leave with no-deal or here is the deal do you want it or not?
Back in April 2017, shortly after Article 50 was invoked, Varoufakis wrote to May in the Telegraph. He had first hand experience of dealing with the EU and, as with Greece, the EU is not going to cut a special deal because populists in countries such as Italy would gently take the EU apart! Or perhaps not so gently. The only deals which the EU will accept are Norway (with the CU) or Canada, but not Canada +++ with all the parts which the Tories wish to keep but no guarantees on customs, regulations etc. And that's before one even considers the Irish border.
May has to keep backing Chequers but the EU27 have simply stated that she has to go back and re-work it. This is NOT a negotiation! This is May working to the Barnier agenda and timetable and being granted four weeks to resubmit her homework. For sure she can ask for a counter proposal but it hasn't been forthcoming to date so only the deluded would hold out for something now. No, the EU rules on the CU and SM are straight forward. We are leaving the EU and we either stay in the EEA or not.
Staying in the EEA solves everything. Leaving means that we start from scratch and we haven't done very well so far. The real question is whether we stay within the Single Market and Customs Union or whether we abandon those together with 40 years of regulation built up not to support a super state but to establish a common market and common protection for consumers.
The Labour conference starts on Sunday and a Yougov poll with analysis from Peter Kellner shows that Labour would benefit significantly from adopting support for a second referendum - a People's Vote on the actual deal as opposed to "magical thinking" and Turkey joining the EU! They asked the following question: At present, the UK is negotiating with the rest of the EU about Brexit. Would you be more likely or less likely to vote Labour if it supported a public vote on the outcome of those negotiations? Kellner estimates that this might be worth well over 1.5 million votes for Labour as the voters they gain outnumbers the Labour Brexiters they lose by something like 9 to 1.
So while May stays up all night reworking Chequers, the Labour National Executive are now in a position to steer their party into a rational, dominant position. That people support their policies on the NHS, housing, the productivity challenge and many other issues means nothing if they cannot show leadership at times like this. Many have criticised Corbyn over the last couple of years without recognising that what he has done is built up the potential impact of a policy switch, as well as controlling the timing. Corbyn and Starmer are in a position to state this is where we are and that they understand what the EU27 will accept - and that now is the time to consider a three way option vote between "No Deal, Agree Exit Deal and Remain".
I have said on here recently that I don't mind another Referendum......but I won't ever vote again in any election (GE or local). Don't bother to ask for my vote because you can't deliver what you asked me.
I now truely beleive that Brexit can not be acheived. We can not leave the EU. It is simply not possible unless either ;
1) There is a United Ireland so the border problem is not an issue.
or
2) Some hard nosed Politician does the unthinkable & agrees to (and builds) a hard border between NI & ROI
Probably everything else can be sorted out.....eventually. But the above problem cant. Not now.Maybe in 20 -30 years time perhaps.
I agree Golfie. We have totally been let down by the establishment. When Cameron decided to fuck off, he should have been replaced by someone who truly believed in brexit. We were handed someone who didn’t & is now being laughed at and pushed around by Europe. God knows where this will end up.
The two candidates were Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom.
Leadsom was a strong campaigner for Leave and continues to be strongly pro-Brexit.
What do you think she would have been able to achieve by this point, had she been made Prime Minster?
Probably the most hypothetical I’ve ever been asked. I’ll answer that Chizz if you answer how long a piece of string is 😃
You've suggested that Cameron should have been replace by someone who "truly believed in Brexit" @stop shouting. And you've said that we were "handed" someone who didn't. It seems as if you're suggesting that the UK's failure to carve out an acceptable deal is due to the fact the Prime Minister didn't support Leave. Is that the case? And if so, it's fair to ask to what extent we would be in a less pitiful position now, had we appointed the alternative Prime Minister, ie Andrea Leadsom.
So, if we are in the current parlous state because the Prime Minster supported Remain, what position would we be in if the Prime Minister had bean the Leave-supporting alternative?
Leadsom has said that she doesnt believe that EU migrants should get preferential access to come to the uk because she would rather see the brightest and best migrants from around the world given the chance to make a contribution to the UK.
This was my main reason for supporting Brexit, I've seen, numerous times, how hard it is for well educated, talented, non-EU citizen to move to the UK!
It will be interesting to see if, a) the EU Court of Justice agrees that article 50 can be revoked by parliamentary consent and, b) if so, Parliament are smart enough to take that get out of jail card.
I have said on here recently that I don't mind another Referendum......but I won't ever vote again in any election (GE or local). Don't bother to ask for my vote because you can't deliver what you asked me.
I now truely beleive that Brexit can not be acheived. We can not leave the EU. It is simply not possible unless either ;
1) There is a United Ireland so the border problem is not an issue.
or
2) Some hard nosed Politician does the unthinkable & agrees to (and builds) a hard border between NI & ROI
Probably everything else can be sorted out.....eventually. But the above problem cant. Not now.Maybe in 20 -30 years time perhaps.
I agree Golfie. We have totally been let down by the establishment. When Cameron decided to fuck off, he should have been replaced by someone who truly believed in brexit. We were handed someone who didn’t & is now being laughed at and pushed around by Europe. God knows where this will end up.
The two candidates were Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom.
Leadsom was a strong campaigner for Leave and continues to be strongly pro-Brexit.
What do you think she would have been able to achieve by this point, had she been made Prime Minster?
Probably the most hypothetical I’ve ever been asked. I’ll answer that Chizz if you answer how long a piece of string is 😃
You've suggested that Cameron should have been replace by someone who "truly believed in Brexit" @stop shouting. And you've said that we were "handed" someone who didn't. It seems as if you're suggesting that the UK's failure to carve out an acceptable deal is due to the fact the Prime Minister didn't support Leave. Is that the case? And if so, it's fair to ask to what extent we would be in a less pitiful position now, had we appointed the alternative Prime Minister, ie Andrea Leadsom.
So, if we are in the current parlous state because the Prime Minster supported Remain, what position would we be in if the Prime Minister had bean the Leave-supporting alternative?
Leadsom has said that she doesnt believe that EU migrants should get preferential access to come to the uk because she would rather see the brightest and best migrants from around the world given the chance to make a contribution to the UK.
This was my main reason for supporting Brexit, I've seen, numerous times, how hard it is for well educated, talented, non-EU citizen to move to the UK!
I feel a lot of sympathy for that viewpoint as well. All the years I was living in the UK my wife, who is American, had to do a ridiculous amount of paperwork and even complete language tests in order to be allowed to stay in the country, all at a huge expense and despite being married to a Brit. This got much worse in the last few years I was there after the Conservatives made it much harder for foreign spouses to be in the country, so we finally decided it would be easier to move to Spain where we both got residency quickly and without much cost. The cost of visa renewal in the UK for non-EU spouses is ridiculous and the raising of the amount that the British partner has to earn put it beyond the reach of many people.
So I can definitely sympathise with this reason for supporting Brexit. However, the general attitude that the debate has brought up about immigration kind of cancels this out, and the preventing of the freedom of movement that allowed us both to easily settle in Spain made me inevitably fall on the Remain side. There are often some thought provoking ideas about leaving on here but the conspiracy theories about the EU and constant blaming of others, along with the lack of a clear understanding or real interest in the details of the situation sadly seem to be still the most common voices, just like the leading Brexit politicians.
Brexit will continue to dominate British life for a long time after the UK leaves (if it ever actually does) and will probably be looked back on as a very strange time in British history, led by some of the most hapless politicians (and opposition) we have ever seen.
I have said on here recently that I don't mind another Referendum......but I won't ever vote again in any election (GE or local). Don't bother to ask for my vote because you can't deliver what you asked me.
I now truely beleive that Brexit can not be acheived. We can not leave the EU. It is simply not possible unless either ;
1) There is a United Ireland so the border problem is not an issue.
or
2) Some hard nosed Politician does the unthinkable & agrees to (and builds) a hard border between NI & ROI
Probably everything else can be sorted out.....eventually. But the above problem cant. Not now.Maybe in 20 -30 years time perhaps.
I agree Golfie. We have totally been let down by the establishment. When Cameron decided to fuck off, he should have been replaced by someone who truly believed in brexit. We were handed someone who didn’t & is now being laughed at and pushed around by Europe. God knows where this will end up.
The two candidates were Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom.
Leadsom was a strong campaigner for Leave and continues to be strongly pro-Brexit.
What do you think she would have been able to achieve by this point, had she been made Prime Minster?
Probably the most hypothetical I’ve ever been asked. I’ll answer that Chizz if you answer how long a piece of string is 😃
You've suggested that Cameron should have been replace by someone who "truly believed in Brexit" @stop shouting. And you've said that we were "handed" someone who didn't. It seems as if you're suggesting that the UK's failure to carve out an acceptable deal is due to the fact the Prime Minister didn't support Leave. Is that the case? And if so, it's fair to ask to what extent we would be in a less pitiful position now, had we appointed the alternative Prime Minister, ie Andrea Leadsom.
So, if we are in the current parlous state because the Prime Minster supported Remain, what position would we be in if the Prime Minister had bean the Leave-supporting alternative?
Leadsom has said that she doesnt believe that EU migrants should get preferential access to come to the uk because she would rather see the brightest and best migrants from around the world given the chance to make a contribution to the UK.
This was my main reason for supporting Brexit, I've seen, numerous times, how hard it is for well educated, talented, non-EU citizen to move to the UK!
I don’t doubt your statement stu but I’m not buying any Tory rhetoric about EU citizens getting unfettered access as opposed to the brightest and best from other parts of the world being given their chance. In my opinion, as a party their true belief is to keep as many people out as possible that aren’t born here. I think they just pay lip service to the whole issue and only accept immigration off the back of our colonial past.
As an aside, how does seeking to (very publicly) open back channels, avoiding the EU's nominated negotiating team, demonstrate how Mrs May has always treated the EU with respect?
Not only do the EU27 simply negotiate with May and whoever is the latest Brexit/Foreign Secretary but they speak with one voice as opposed to the 27 voices attempting to steer May from the back seat of the Tory Party. Anybody who is surprised at the outcome this week has not been paying attention.
I have said on here recently that I don't mind another Referendum......but I won't ever vote again in any election (GE or local). Don't bother to ask for my vote because you can't deliver what you asked me.
I now truely beleive that Brexit can not be acheived. We can not leave the EU. It is simply not possible unless either ;
1) There is a United Ireland so the border problem is not an issue.
or
2) Some hard nosed Politician does the unthinkable & agrees to (and builds) a hard border between NI & ROI
Probably everything else can be sorted out.....eventually. But the above problem cant. Not now.Maybe in 20 -30 years time perhaps.
I agree Golfie. We have totally been let down by the establishment. When Cameron decided to fuck off, he should have been replaced by someone who truly believed in brexit. We were handed someone who didn’t & is now being laughed at and pushed around by Europe. God knows where this will end up.
The two candidates were Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom.
Leadsom was a strong campaigner for Leave and continues to be strongly pro-Brexit.
What do you think she would have been able to achieve by this point, had she been made Prime Minster?
Probably the most hypothetical I’ve ever been asked. I’ll answer that Chizz if you answer how long a piece of string is 😃
You've suggested that Cameron should have been replace by someone who "truly believed in Brexit" @stop shouting. And you've said that we were "handed" someone who didn't. It seems as if you're suggesting that the UK's failure to carve out an acceptable deal is due to the fact the Prime Minister didn't support Leave. Is that the case? And if so, it's fair to ask to what extent we would be in a less pitiful position now, had we appointed the alternative Prime Minister, ie Andrea Leadsom.
So, if we are in the current parlous state because the Prime Minster supported Remain, what position would we be in if the Prime Minister had bean the Leave-supporting alternative?
Leadsom has said that she doesnt believe that EU migrants should get preferential access to come to the uk because she would rather see the brightest and best migrants from around the world given the chance to make a contribution to the UK.
This was my main reason for supporting Brexit, I've seen, numerous times, how hard it is for well educated, talented, non-EU citizen to move to the UK!
So the EU decide which people from outside the EU can move to Britain? That is not a decision made by the UK government? Is that what you are claiming?
I have said on here recently that I don't mind another Referendum......but I won't ever vote again in any election (GE or local). Don't bother to ask for my vote because you can't deliver what you asked me.
I now truely beleive that Brexit can not be acheived. We can not leave the EU. It is simply not possible unless either ;
1) There is a United Ireland so the border problem is not an issue.
or
2) Some hard nosed Politician does the unthinkable & agrees to (and builds) a hard border between NI & ROI
Probably everything else can be sorted out.....eventually. But the above problem cant. Not now.Maybe in 20 -30 years time perhaps.
I agree Golfie. We have totally been let down by the establishment. When Cameron decided to fuck off, he should have been replaced by someone who truly believed in brexit. We were handed someone who didn’t & is now being laughed at and pushed around by Europe. God knows where this will end up.
The two candidates were Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom.
Leadsom was a strong campaigner for Leave and continues to be strongly pro-Brexit.
What do you think she would have been able to achieve by this point, had she been made Prime Minster?
Probably the most hypothetical I’ve ever been asked. I’ll answer that Chizz if you answer how long a piece of string is 😃
You've suggested that Cameron should have been replace by someone who "truly believed in Brexit" @stop shouting. And you've said that we were "handed" someone who didn't. It seems as if you're suggesting that the UK's failure to carve out an acceptable deal is due to the fact the Prime Minister didn't support Leave. Is that the case? And if so, it's fair to ask to what extent we would be in a less pitiful position now, had we appointed the alternative Prime Minister, ie Andrea Leadsom.
So, if we are in the current parlous state because the Prime Minster supported Remain, what position would we be in if the Prime Minister had bean the Leave-supporting alternative?
Leadsom has said that she doesnt believe that EU migrants should get preferential access to come to the uk because she would rather see the brightest and best migrants from around the world given the chance to make a contribution to the UK.
This was my main reason for supporting Brexit, I've seen, numerous times, how hard it is for well educated, talented, non-EU citizen to move to the UK!
So the EU decide which people from outside the EU can move to Britain? That is not a decision made by the UK government? Is that what you are claiming?
No, not at all, but we can only let so many people in, so, in my opinion, if the door is open to anyone from Europe that lowers the number of people who can enter from outside Europe. The world gets smaller every day and I believe the EU is far too inward looking, I believed, possibly incorrectly that a more outward looking UK could prosper outside of the EU, perhaps I overestimated our politicians, of all colors.
I've already posted, several times, on this thread that I have somewhat changed my mind on the entire remain/brexit discussion and honestly don't know what I'd do if a 'peoples vote' was called.
I have said on here recently that I don't mind another Referendum......but I won't ever vote again in any election (GE or local). Don't bother to ask for my vote because you can't deliver what you asked me.
I now truely beleive that Brexit can not be acheived. We can not leave the EU. It is simply not possible unless either ;
1) There is a United Ireland so the border problem is not an issue.
or
2) Some hard nosed Politician does the unthinkable & agrees to (and builds) a hard border between NI & ROI
Probably everything else can be sorted out.....eventually. But the above problem cant. Not now.Maybe in 20 -30 years time perhaps.
I agree Golfie. We have totally been let down by the establishment. When Cameron decided to fuck off, he should have been replaced by someone who truly believed in brexit. We were handed someone who didn’t & is now being laughed at and pushed around by Europe. God knows where this will end up.
The two candidates were Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom.
Leadsom was a strong campaigner for Leave and continues to be strongly pro-Brexit.
What do you think she would have been able to achieve by this point, had she been made Prime Minster?
Probably the most hypothetical I’ve ever been asked. I’ll answer that Chizz if you answer how long a piece of string is 😃
You've suggested that Cameron should have been replace by someone who "truly believed in Brexit" @stop shouting. And you've said that we were "handed" someone who didn't. It seems as if you're suggesting that the UK's failure to carve out an acceptable deal is due to the fact the Prime Minister didn't support Leave. Is that the case? And if so, it's fair to ask to what extent we would be in a less pitiful position now, had we appointed the alternative Prime Minister, ie Andrea Leadsom.
So, if we are in the current parlous state because the Prime Minster supported Remain, what position would we be in if the Prime Minister had bean the Leave-supporting alternative?
Leadsom has said that she doesnt believe that EU migrants should get preferential access to come to the uk because she would rather see the brightest and best migrants from around the world given the chance to make a contribution to the UK.
This was my main reason for supporting Brexit, I've seen, numerous times, how hard it is for well educated, talented, non-EU citizen to move to the UK!
Once again. If someone comes from a country outside of the European Union then this country can make whatever rules it wants to let them in or turn them away. Immigration from outside the 27 has sweet Fanny Adams to do with Brussels.
Another straw man argument based on a complete lack of understanding of what the Eu is and does. It’s embarrassing.
I have said on here recently that I don't mind another Referendum......but I won't ever vote again in any election (GE or local). Don't bother to ask for my vote because you can't deliver what you asked me.
I now truely beleive that Brexit can not be acheived. We can not leave the EU. It is simply not possible unless either ;
1) There is a United Ireland so the border problem is not an issue.
or
2) Some hard nosed Politician does the unthinkable & agrees to (and builds) a hard border between NI & ROI
Probably everything else can be sorted out.....eventually. But the above problem cant. Not now.Maybe in 20 -30 years time perhaps.
I agree Golfie. We have totally been let down by the establishment. When Cameron decided to fuck off, he should have been replaced by someone who truly believed in brexit. We were handed someone who didn’t & is now being laughed at and pushed around by Europe. God knows where this will end up.
The two candidates were Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom.
Leadsom was a strong campaigner for Leave and continues to be strongly pro-Brexit.
What do you think she would have been able to achieve by this point, had she been made Prime Minster?
Probably the most hypothetical I’ve ever been asked. I’ll answer that Chizz if you answer how long a piece of string is 😃
You've suggested that Cameron should have been replace by someone who "truly believed in Brexit" @stop shouting. And you've said that we were "handed" someone who didn't. It seems as if you're suggesting that the UK's failure to carve out an acceptable deal is due to the fact the Prime Minister didn't support Leave. Is that the case? And if so, it's fair to ask to what extent we would be in a less pitiful position now, had we appointed the alternative Prime Minister, ie Andrea Leadsom.
So, if we are in the current parlous state because the Prime Minster supported Remain, what position would we be in if the Prime Minister had bean the Leave-supporting alternative?
Leadsom has said that she doesnt believe that EU migrants should get preferential access to come to the uk because she would rather see the brightest and best migrants from around the world given the chance to make a contribution to the UK.
This was my main reason for supporting Brexit, I've seen, numerous times, how hard it is for well educated, talented, non-EU citizen to move to the UK!
Once again. If someone comes from a country outside of the European Union then this country can make whatever rules it wants to let them in or turn them away. Immigration from outside the 27 has sweet Fanny Adams to do with Brussels.
Another straw man argument based on a complete lack of understanding of what the Eu is and does. It’s embarrassing.
Again, I never once said it was a decision made by the EU, but freedom of movement does, undoubtedly does sway the UKs immigration policy. I have a great understanding of how the EU works, I spent a lot of time studying it at university, but heyho, you keep making those assumptions.
I have said on here recently that I don't mind another Referendum......but I won't ever vote again in any election (GE or local). Don't bother to ask for my vote because you can't deliver what you asked me.
I now truely beleive that Brexit can not be acheived. We can not leave the EU. It is simply not possible unless either ;
1) There is a United Ireland so the border problem is not an issue.
or
2) Some hard nosed Politician does the unthinkable & agrees to (and builds) a hard border between NI & ROI
Probably everything else can be sorted out.....eventually. But the above problem cant. Not now.Maybe in 20 -30 years time perhaps.
I agree Golfie. We have totally been let down by the establishment. When Cameron decided to fuck off, he should have been replaced by someone who truly believed in brexit. We were handed someone who didn’t & is now being laughed at and pushed around by Europe. God knows where this will end up.
The two candidates were Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom.
Leadsom was a strong campaigner for Leave and continues to be strongly pro-Brexit.
What do you think she would have been able to achieve by this point, had she been made Prime Minster?
Probably the most hypothetical I’ve ever been asked. I’ll answer that Chizz if you answer how long a piece of string is 😃
You've suggested that Cameron should have been replace by someone who "truly believed in Brexit" @stop shouting. And you've said that we were "handed" someone who didn't. It seems as if you're suggesting that the UK's failure to carve out an acceptable deal is due to the fact the Prime Minister didn't support Leave. Is that the case? And if so, it's fair to ask to what extent we would be in a less pitiful position now, had we appointed the alternative Prime Minister, ie Andrea Leadsom.
So, if we are in the current parlous state because the Prime Minster supported Remain, what position would we be in if the Prime Minister had bean the Leave-supporting alternative?
Leadsom has said that she doesnt believe that EU migrants should get preferential access to come to the uk because she would rather see the brightest and best migrants from around the world given the chance to make a contribution to the UK.
This was my main reason for supporting Brexit, I've seen, numerous times, how hard it is for well educated, talented, non-EU citizen to move to the UK!
Once again. If someone comes from a country outside of the European Union then this country can make whatever rules it wants to let them in or turn them away. Immigration from outside the 27 has sweet Fanny Adams to do with Brussels.
Another straw man argument based on a complete lack of understanding of what the Eu is and does. It’s embarrassing.
Again, I never once said it was a decision made by the EU, but freedom of movement does, undoubtedly does sway the UKs immigration policy. I have a great understanding of how the EU works, I spent a lot of time studying it at university, but heyho, you keep making those assumptions.
This country can accept an immigration application from anyone in the world talented or otherwise. The fact that it chooses not to is internal UK policy. Freedom of movement from the EU is not possible to stop. However. Should a EU citizen not have found work in the UK after a period ( 3 months ?) this country has the right to send them back. The U.K. again chooses not to use this rule. Why the EU gets blamed I have no idea. We have full employment so we’re told. Explain to me from your extensive study what is wrong with any of the above.
I have said on here recently that I don't mind another Referendum......but I won't ever vote again in any election (GE or local). Don't bother to ask for my vote because you can't deliver what you asked me.
I now truely beleive that Brexit can not be acheived. We can not leave the EU. It is simply not possible unless either ;
1) There is a United Ireland so the border problem is not an issue.
or
2) Some hard nosed Politician does the unthinkable & agrees to (and builds) a hard border between NI & ROI
Probably everything else can be sorted out.....eventually. But the above problem cant. Not now.Maybe in 20 -30 years time perhaps.
I agree Golfie. We have totally been let down by the establishment. When Cameron decided to fuck off, he should have been replaced by someone who truly believed in brexit. We were handed someone who didn’t & is now being laughed at and pushed around by Europe. God knows where this will end up.
The two candidates were Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom.
Leadsom was a strong campaigner for Leave and continues to be strongly pro-Brexit.
What do you think she would have been able to achieve by this point, had she been made Prime Minster?
Probably the most hypothetical I’ve ever been asked. I’ll answer that Chizz if you answer how long a piece of string is 😃
So, if we are in the current parlous state because the Prime Minster supported Remain, what position would we be in if the Prime Minister had bean the Leave-supporting alternative?
Leadsom has said that she doesnt believe that EU migrants should get preferential access to come to the uk because she would rather see the brightest and best migrants from around the world given the chance to make a contribution to the UK.
This was my main reason for supporting Brexit, I've seen, numerous times, how hard it is for well educated, talented, non-EU citizen to move to the UK!
Once again. If someone comes from a country outside of the European Union then this country can make whatever rules it wants to let them in or turn them away. Immigration from outside the 27 has sweet Fanny Adams to do with Brussels.
Another straw man argument based on a complete lack of understanding of what the Eu is and does. It’s embarrassing.
Again, I never once said it was a decision made by the EU, but freedom of movement does, undoubtedly does sway the UKs immigration policy. I have a great understanding of how the EU works, I spent a lot of time studying it at university, but heyho, you keep making those assumptions.
This country can accept an immigration application from anyone in the world talented or otherwise. The fact that it chooses not to is internal UK policy. Freedom of movement from the EU is not possible to stop. However. Should a EU citizen not have found work in the UK after a period ( 3 months ?) this country has the right to send them back. The U.K. again chooses not to use this rule. Why the EU gets blamed I have no idea. We have full employment so we’re told. Explain to me from your extensive study what is wrong with any of the above.
I have said on here recently that I don't mind another Referendum......but I won't ever vote again in any election (GE or local). Don't bother to ask for my vote because you can't deliver what you asked me.
I now truely beleive that Brexit can not be acheived. We can not leave the EU. It is simply not possible unless either ;
1) There is a United Ireland so the border problem is not an issue.
or
2) Some hard nosed Politician does the unthinkable & agrees to (and builds) a hard border between NI & ROI
Probably everything else can be sorted out.....eventually. But the above problem cant. Not now.Maybe in 20 -30 years time perhaps.
I agree Golfie. We have totally been let down by the establishment. When Cameron decided to fuck off, he should have been replaced by someone who truly believed in brexit. We were handed someone who didn’t & is now being laughed at and pushed around by Europe. God knows where this will end up.
The two candidates were Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom.
Leadsom was a strong campaigner for Leave and continues to be strongly pro-Brexit.
What do you think she would have been able to achieve by this point, had she been made Prime Minster?
Probably the most hypothetical I’ve ever been asked. I’ll answer that Chizz if you answer how long a piece of string is 😃
You've suggested that Cameron should have been replace by someone who "truly believed in Brexit" @stop shouting. And you've said that we were "handed" someone who didn't. It seems as if you're suggesting that the UK's failure to carve out an acceptable deal is due to the fact the Prime Minister didn't support Leave. Is that the case? And if so, it's fair to ask to what extent we would be in a less pitiful position now, had we appointed the alternative Prime Minister, ie Andrea Leadsom.
So, if we are in the current parlous state because the Prime Minster supported Remain, what position would we be in if the Prime Minister had bean the Leave-supporting alternative?
Leadsom has said that she doesnt believe that EU migrants should get preferential access to come to the uk because she would rather see the brightest and best migrants from around the world given the chance to make a contribution to the UK.
This was my main reason for supporting Brexit, I've seen, numerous times, how hard it is for well educated, talented, non-EU citizen to move to the UK!
So the EU decide which people from outside the EU can move to Britain? That is not a decision made by the UK government? Is that what you are claiming?
No, not at all, but we can only let so many people in, so, in my opinion, if the door is open to anyone from Europe that lowers the number of people who can enter from outside Europe. The world gets smaller every day and I believe the EU is far too inward looking, I believed, possibly incorrectly that a more outward looking UK could prosper outside of the EU, perhaps I overestimated our politicians, of all colors.
I've already posted, several times, on this thread that I have somewhat changed my mind on the entire remain/brexit discussion and honestly don't know what I'd do if a 'peoples vote' was called.
I don't know if you missed my earlier post, I imagine you were typing out your first reply as I posted it, so I'll copy it again, I'd love to answer your question in more detail but it's now 1:30am, I'll have a try in the morning. But once again, for clarification, I never stated it was anything other than internal policy, however, those decisions can be influenced in many ways, our membership of the EU is one of them.
I actually agree with @Stu_of_Kunming - clear free movement from the EU has an impact on the quotas we can offer to non-EU migrants, I just don’t see it as a problem. Migration from the EU has enriched this country and European migrants are net contributors to our economy. We could probably replace these migrants over the next few decades with migrants from outside the EU, but what’s the point and what will the consequences be in the meantime for sectors that are basically now reliant on these EU migrants?
I have never been more convinced in my lifetime that we need a clean break from the Eu. The EU could have offered Cameron something to come back with. They gave him nothing. Even when we voted to leave they could have tried to keep us in. And even now when May bends over backwards to salvage something they still say no. I am in a very small minority on this thread but I say fuck em. If they will not compromise on what May is offering then tell them that the 39 billion divorce bill is cancelled. Go for a hard Brexit and take our chances in the wider world. Fuck the EU.
@Stu_of_Kunming Thanks for your reply. Where I think I might be getting confused is because you posted earlier
“This was my main reason for supporting Brexit, I've seen, numerous times, how hard it is for well educated, talented, non-EU citizen to move to the UK!“
Am I wrong in thinking that this implies that in your opinion it’s EU policy that makes it difficult for well educated, talented , non EU citizens to move to the UK.
I actually agree with @Stu_of_Kunming - clear free movement from the EU has an impact on the quotas we can offer to non-EU migrants, I just don’t see it as a problem. Migration from the EU has enriched this country and European migrants are net contributors to our economy. We could probably replace these migrants over the next few decades with migrants from outside the EU, but what’s the point and what will the consequences be in the meantime for sectors that are basically now reliant on these EU migrants?
Does it really impact on this country’s ability to recruit well educated specialists from wherever they might hail from if we are also recruiting well educated specialists from the EU along with all the other EU citizens who come to do all the jobs currently not wanted by UK citizens in eg. Hospitality and care and agriculture?
Why should the EU have tried to keep the UK in or made any concessions to the UK which changed their own rules? Imagine for example the Netherlands were leaving the EU - would anyone in the UK say we should be doing anything different as part of the EU to get them to change their mind? Its not the job of the EU to decide what the UK's plan should be or to compromise on anything that doesn't suit them and that should have been obvious when we were voting.
I actually agree with @Stu_of_Kunming - clear free movement from the EU has an impact on the quotas we can offer to non-EU migrants, I just don’t see it as a problem. Migration from the EU has enriched this country and European migrants are net contributors to our economy. We could probably replace these migrants over the next few decades with migrants from outside the EU, but what’s the point and what will the consequences be in the meantime for sectors that are basically now reliant on these EU migrants?
Well, so much for sleeping.... I've never been against immigration, be it EU, or non-EU, I agree it enriches the country and absolutely benefits the economy, I just think we should be looking to take those migrants from the entire world, rather than just Europe. I am clearly an immigrant myself and I have no problem having to reapply for my work visa every year (despite being married to a Chinese national and soon to be a father of one) and have never agreed that not being in the EU would stop all EU immigration, yes it will make it a little harder for people to move to the UK, but that's no bad thing, imo.
I've accepted that some of my former opinions may have been made in error and I cannot deny seeing myself being on the same 'side' as some people genuinely makes my skin crawl.
@Stu_of_Kunming Thanks for your reply. Where I think I might be getting confused is because you posted earlier
“This was my main reason for supporting Brexit, I've seen, numerous times, how hard it is for well educated, talented, non-EU citizen to move to the UK!
“
Am I wrong in thinking that this implies that in your opinion it’s EU policy that makes it difficult for well educated, talented , non EU citizens to move to the UK.
Sleep well
Yes, you are wrong, although that may be my fault for not being clear. I don't think EU policy is what causes it, as @se9addick wrote: "clear free movement from the EU has an impact on the quotas we can offer to non-EU migrants" which is the point i was - badly - trying to make.
I have never been more convinced in my lifetime that we need a clean break from the Eu. The EU could have offered Cameron something to come back with. They gave him nothing. Even when we voted to leave they could have tried to keep us in. And even now when May bends over backwards to salvage something they still say no. I am in a very small minority on this thread but I say fuck em. If they will not compromise on what May is offering then tell them that the 39 billion divorce bill is cancelled. Go for a hard Brexit and take our chances in the wider world. Fuck the EU.
Comments
So, if we are in the current parlous state because the Prime Minster supported Remain, what position would we be in if the Prime Minister had bean the Leave-supporting alternative?
Brexit was always impossible to deliver and how could it ever have been different when after two years the ruling party still can’t agree with itself let alone with the 27.
Leadsom has said that she doesnt believe that EU migrants should get preferential access to come to the uk because she would rather see the brightest and best migrants from around the world given the chance to make a contribution to the UK. May’s favoured immigration system does show bias to EU migrants. This is a big point for me and something I believe Leadsom is right on.
May has to keep backing Chequers but the EU27 have simply stated that she has to go back and re-work it. This is NOT a negotiation! This is May working to the Barnier agenda and timetable and being granted four weeks to resubmit her homework. For sure she can ask for a counter proposal but it hasn't been forthcoming to date so only the deluded would hold out for something now. No, the EU rules on the CU and SM are straight forward. We are leaving the EU and we either stay in the EEA or not.
Staying in the EEA solves everything. Leaving means that we start from scratch and we haven't done very well so far. The real question is whether we stay within the Single Market and Customs Union or whether we abandon those together with 40 years of regulation built up not to support a super state but to establish a common market and common protection for consumers.
The Labour conference starts on Sunday and a Yougov poll with analysis from Peter Kellner shows that Labour would benefit significantly from adopting support for a second referendum - a People's Vote on the actual deal as opposed to "magical thinking" and Turkey joining the EU! They asked the following question: At present, the UK is negotiating with the rest of the EU about Brexit. Would you be more likely or less likely to vote Labour if it supported a public vote on the outcome of those negotiations? Kellner estimates that this might be worth well over 1.5 million votes for Labour as the voters they gain outnumbers the Labour Brexiters they lose by something like 9 to 1.
So while May stays up all night reworking Chequers, the Labour National Executive are now in a position to steer their party into a rational, dominant position. That people support their policies on the NHS, housing, the productivity challenge and many other issues means nothing if they cannot show leadership at times like this. Many have criticised Corbyn over the last couple of years without recognising that what he has done is built up the potential impact of a policy switch, as well as controlling the timing. Corbyn and Starmer are in a position to state this is where we are and that they understand what the EU27 will accept - and that now is the time to consider a three way option vote between "No Deal, Agree Exit Deal and Remain".
...
http://www.scotland-judiciary.org.uk/9/2060/Andy-Wightman-MSP-and-others-v-Secretary-of-State-for-Exiting-the-EU
It will be interesting to see if, a) the EU Court of Justice agrees that article 50 can be revoked by parliamentary consent and, b) if so, Parliament are smart enough to take that get out of jail card.
So I can definitely sympathise with this reason for supporting Brexit. However, the general attitude that the debate has brought up about immigration kind of cancels this out, and the preventing of the freedom of movement that allowed us both to easily settle in Spain made me inevitably fall on the Remain side. There are often some thought provoking ideas about leaving on here but the conspiracy theories about the EU and constant blaming of others, along with the lack of a clear understanding or real interest in the details of the situation sadly seem to be still the most common voices, just like the leading Brexit politicians.
Brexit will continue to dominate British life for a long time after the UK leaves (if it ever actually does) and will probably be looked back on as a very strange time in British history, led by some of the most hapless politicians (and opposition) we have ever seen.
I've already posted, several times, on this thread that I have somewhat changed my mind on the entire remain/brexit discussion and honestly don't know what I'd do if a 'peoples vote' was called.
Another straw man argument based on a complete lack of understanding of what the Eu is and does. It’s embarrassing.
The EU could have offered Cameron something to come back with.
They gave him nothing.
Even when we voted to leave they could have tried to keep us in.
And even now when May bends over backwards to salvage something they still say no.
I am in a very small minority on this thread but I say fuck em.
If they will not compromise on what May is offering then tell them that the 39 billion divorce bill is cancelled.
Go for a hard Brexit and take our chances in the wider world.
Fuck the EU.
Thanks for your reply. Where I think I might be getting confused is because you posted earlier
“This was my main reason for supporting Brexit, I've seen, numerous times, how hard it is for well educated, talented, non-EU citizen to move to the UK!“
Am I wrong in thinking that this implies that in your opinion it’s EU policy that makes it difficult for well educated, talented , non EU citizens to move to the UK.
Sleep well
Does it really impact on this country’s ability to recruit well educated specialists from wherever they might hail from if we are also recruiting well educated specialists from the EU along with all the other EU citizens who come to do all the jobs currently not wanted by UK citizens in eg. Hospitality and care and agriculture?
I've accepted that some of my former opinions may have been made in error and I cannot deny seeing myself being on the same 'side' as some people genuinely makes my skin crawl.
Am I wrong in thinking that this implies that in your opinion it’s EU policy that makes it difficult for well educated, talented , non EU citizens to move to the UK.
Sleep well
Yes, you are wrong, although that may be my fault for not being clear. I don't think EU policy is what causes it, as @se9addick wrote: "clear free movement from the EU has an impact on the quotas we can offer to non-EU migrants" which is the point i was - badly - trying to make.
For completeness.