I have never been more convinced in my lifetime that we need a clean break from the Eu. The EU could have offered Cameron something to come back with. They gave him nothing. Even when we voted to leave they could have tried to keep us in. And even now when May bends over backwards to salvage something they still say no. I am in a very small minority on this thread but I say fuck em. If they will not compromise on what May is offering then tell them that the 39 billion divorce bill is cancelled. Go for a hard Brexit and take our chances in the wider world. Fuck the EU.
May, like Cameron before her, keeps asking for the impossible, and we know it's impossible, we were part of the treaties we're asking people to break, whilst simultaneously doing nothing to try and convince anybody that treaties need changing.
Cameron did it all back to front and May is making the exact same mistakes. First you try and get a consensus on treaty change, then once you've got that you get the treaties amended, and only then do you ask for things that are now possible.
We know all the EUs rules and laws, we helped form then, so it is madness to keep.asking for things we know we can't have, and then get angry when we're told we can't have them.
I have never been more convinced in my lifetime that we need a clean break from the Eu. The EU could have offered Cameron something to come back with. They gave him nothing. Even when we voted to leave they could have tried to keep us in. And even now when May bends over backwards to salvage something they still say no. I am in a very small minority on this thread but I say fuck em. If they will not compromise on what May is offering then tell them that the 39 billion divorce bill is cancelled. Go for a hard Brexit and take our chances in the wider world. Fuck the EU.
You simply have no grasp of reality all do you?
Why say that? Blackpool’s given an opinion and you just trash him with zero comeback. Pointless. I bet you’ve got form for saying stuff like “there are no words” and “absolute parody”.
I have never been more convinced in my lifetime that we need a clean break from the Eu. The EU could have offered Cameron something to come back with. They gave him nothing. Even when we voted to leave they could have tried to keep us in. And even now when May bends over backwards to salvage something they still say no. I am in a very small minority on this thread but I say fuck em. If they will not compromise on what May is offering then tell them that the 39 billion divorce bill is cancelled. Go for a hard Brexit and take our chances in the wider world. Fuck the EU.
Sorry @blackpool72, but I disagree with your premise.
The EU did offer Cameron something to come back with, there were additional concessions agreed prior to the Referendum, despite the fact that the UK did not use the existing tools available to it (which were automatically rescinded once the UK voted to leave). The problem is that what Cameron asked for required Treaty change - but he was not prepared to put in the work, or be honest with the UK electorate about what was required - which would have required referenda across Europe. The EU Council could not give Cameron what he wanted, because they do not have that power within the EU constitutional framework.
EU leaders made it clear that they regretted the UK's decision, but respecting the sovereignty of the UK, they cannot keep the UK in the EU, and can do nothing more than express regret (with a possible invitation to reconsider).
Theresa May is not bending over backwards. She has backed herself into a corner. The problem with her position is that, like that nice Mr. Cameron, she is effectively demanding that the change its founding principles to suit the UK.
She takes two years to come up with any kind of plan for a future trading relationship, having rejected out of hand any number of options available off the shelf (for tweaking) from the EU, on the basis of her red lines. Having rejected, out of hand, EU suggestions, she now complains that the EU27 reject out of hand hers, despite the EU making clear over the months since the Referendum (not just the last few days) that they would not demolish the foundations of the EU to suit her. Anyone with half a brain would have recognised that the founding Treaty of what has become the EU is not the subject of the UK's exit negotiations (nor of the political agreement about the outline of any trading relationship); to expect it to be amended to suit a third country is just bonkers.
She has, both herself and her Ministers, sought to renege on what has been agreed to date or, in the case of Michael Gove (deliberately, IMHO, to undermine her this week), announce that they will not negotiate in good faith. An example is the proposed backstop for the Irish Border - it was always the case that a legally binding and (as the EU27 say) all weather form of words was required, and the intention was that it should never be required, provided a suitable trading relationship could be arrived at, that would remove the need for change on the border.
The EU27 put forward their suggestion for a legally binding solution, formally rejected by Mrs. May for the UK in March, and several times since. The EU27 have since attempted to find a way to amend what they believe is the only workable solution, amendments which have also been rejected. Meanwhile we still await the UK Government to make any form of suggestion about a possible backstop (because, as seems clear, the UK Government continues its policy of wilfully misunderstanding what the EU is about, assuming that the rest of the EU would throw Ireland under the bus if they managed to avoid any substantive negotiations until the eleventh hour - hence the oft-repeated claim that a deal will only be struck at the last minute because that's what happens with internal EU negotiations, which sadly ignores that the current Brexit negotiations are at best semi-detached).
The Chequers Plan is not offering, it is demanding many of the benefits of membership of the Single Market, without the associated obligations. For the EU27 to agree to it is not compromise but surrender of their principles. The UK can certainly state that it will not pay for its commitments, freely made before the EU Referendum, but such a decision will have consequences - not the least that the level of fucking over of the economy in Northern Ireland alone would see that amount, if not more, disbursed to address the damage that a chaotic Brexit would cause and the inevitable introduction of a hard border over here. Walking away in that manner would, almost by definition, mean that the EU would not negotiate any FTA with the UK any time soon, it would not encourage its trading partners to grandfather (I hope I'm using the right term) their deals for the UK's benefit, and they could prove less than cooperative over the UK's WTO schedules if they wanted to play silly buggers (not that they'd have any reason to feel pissed off).
The UK could try to follow your suggestion of fucking the EU, but that could prove rather, shall we say, premature; and seek to entice others from the wider world who will insist on their trade intercourse being without the sort of protection on which UK consumers have relied for decades... While the US Government will probably seek to reassure by suggesting that the beast with two backs is just an entirely safe genetically modified heifer.
I have never been more convinced in my lifetime that we need a clean break from the Eu. The EU could have offered Cameron something to come back with. They gave him nothing. Even when we voted to leave they could have tried to keep us in. And even now when May bends over backwards to salvage something they still say no. I am in a very small minority on this thread but I say fuck em. If they will not compromise on what May is offering then tell them that the 39 billion divorce bill is cancelled. Go for a hard Brexit and take our chances in the wider world. Fuck the EU.
You simply have no grasp of reality all do you?
Why say that? Blackpool’s given an opinion and you just trash him with zero comeback. Pointless. I bet you’ve got form for saying stuff like “there are no words” and “absolute parody”.
Thanks for the back up. The problem is although Brexit won the people on here are almost certainly remain. It is very hard to argue when most on here voted remain. In the real world most did not
I have never been more convinced in my lifetime that we need a clean break from the Eu. The EU could have offered Cameron something to come back with. They gave him nothing. Even when we voted to leave they could have tried to keep us in. And even now when May bends over backwards to salvage something they still say no. I am in a very small minority on this thread but I say fuck em. If they will not compromise on what May is offering then tell them that the 39 billion divorce bill is cancelled. Go for a hard Brexit and take our chances in the wider world. Fuck the EU.
You simply have no grasp of reality all do you?
Why say that? Blackpool’s given an opinion and you just trash him with zero comeback. Pointless. I bet you’ve got form for saying stuff like “there are no words” and “absolute parody”.
Says the poster who writes stuff like “there are no words” and “absolute parody”....
Looking very much like a no deal to me. No foreseeable comprises look like closing the gulf that obviously exists. May trying to look like “the Iron Lady” and only achieves blancmange.
I have never been more convinced in my lifetime that we need a clean break from the Eu. The EU could have offered Cameron something to come back with. They gave him nothing. Even when we voted to leave they could have tried to keep us in. And even now when May bends over backwards to salvage something they still say no. I am in a very small minority on this thread but I say fuck em. If they will not compromise on what May is offering then tell them that the 39 billion divorce bill is cancelled. Go for a hard Brexit and take our chances in the wider world. Fuck the EU.
You simply have no grasp of reality all do you?
Why say that? Blackpool’s given an opinion and you just trash him with zero comeback. Pointless. I bet you’ve got form for saying stuff like “there are no words” and “absolute parody”.
Says the poster who writes stuff like “there are no words” and “absolute parody”....
You issue a reasoned argument mate. Nought wrong with that 👍
I have never been more convinced in my lifetime that we need a clean break from the Eu. The EU could have offered Cameron something to come back with. They gave him nothing. Even when we voted to leave they could have tried to keep us in. And even now when May bends over backwards to salvage something they still say no. I am in a very small minority on this thread but I say fuck em. If they will not compromise on what May is offering then tell them that the 39 billion divorce bill is cancelled. Go for a hard Brexit and take our chances in the wider world. Fuck the EU.
I think I ceased being amazed at the arrogance of politicians - not all, but seemingly most - a long time ago.
What on earth were the EU meant to say to May? She can’t agree her Chequers deal with her own party. It therefore won’t get past Parliament, let alone come back to the EU in any recognisable form.
She surrounded herself with a bunch of failed career politicians and still gets manipulated by a non-entity and his ERG cronies. A non-entity acting against his own constituents. They’re the same as Johnson, all bluster, except without the court jester garb.
I have never been more convinced in my lifetime that we need a clean break from the Eu. The EU could have offered Cameron something to come back with. They gave him nothing. Even when we voted to leave they could have tried to keep us in. And even now when May bends over backwards to salvage something they still say no. I am in a very small minority on this thread but I say fuck em. If they will not compromise on what May is offering then tell them that the 39 billion divorce bill is cancelled. Go for a hard Brexit and take our chances in the wider world. Fuck the EU.
You simply have no grasp of reality all do you?
Why say that? Blackpool’s given an opinion and you just trash him with zero comeback. Pointless. I bet you’ve got form for saying stuff like “there are no words” and “absolute parody”.
Thanks for the back up. The problem is although Brexit won the people on here are almost certainly remain. It is very hard to argue when most on here voted remain. In the real world most did not
I have never been more convinced in my lifetime that we need a clean break from the Eu. The EU could have offered Cameron something to come back with. They gave him nothing. Even when we voted to leave they could have tried to keep us in. And even now when May bends over backwards to salvage something they still say no. I am in a very small minority on this thread but I say fuck em. If they will not compromise on what May is offering then tell them that the 39 billion divorce bill is cancelled. Go for a hard Brexit and take our chances in the wider world. Fuck the EU.
I have never been more convinced in my lifetime that we need a clean break from the Eu. The EU could have offered Cameron something to come back with. They gave him nothing. Even when we voted to leave they could have tried to keep us in. And even now when May bends over backwards to salvage something they still say no. I am in a very small minority on this thread but I say fuck em. If they will not compromise on what May is offering then tell them that the 39 billion divorce bill is cancelled. Go for a hard Brexit and take our chances in the wider world. Fuck the EU.
I have never been more convinced in my lifetime that we need a clean break from the Eu. The EU could have offered Cameron something to come back with. They gave him nothing. Even when we voted to leave they could have tried to keep us in. And even now when May bends over backwards to salvage something they still say no. I am in a very small minority on this thread but I say fuck em. If they will not compromise on what May is offering then tell them that the 39 billion divorce bill is cancelled. Go for a hard Brexit and take our chances in the wider world. Fuck the EU.
You simply have no grasp of reality all do you?
Why say that? Blackpool’s given an opinion and you just trash him with zero comeback. Pointless. I bet you’ve got form for saying stuff like “there are no words” and “absolute parody”.
Thanks for the back up. The problem is although Brexit won the people on here are almost certainly remain. It is very hard to argue when most on here voted remain. In the real world most did not
Indeed never hear it spoke about anywhere... Apart from the idiot who sits across the desk from me who for the last two years has threatened to move to Ireland (couldn't) and Scotland, but has now bought a bigger house in Calne. Offered him the airport run but he declined. Another project fear advocate.
I have said on here recently that I don't mind another Referendum......but I won't ever vote again in any election (GE or local). Don't bother to ask for my vote because you can't deliver what you asked me.
I now truely beleive that Brexit can not be acheived. We can not leave the EU. It is simply not possible unless either ;
1) There is a United Ireland so the border problem is not an issue.
or
2) Some hard nosed Politician does the unthinkable & agrees to (and builds) a hard border between NI & ROI
Probably everything else can be sorted out.....eventually. But the above problem cant. Not now.Maybe in 20 -30 years time perhaps.
I agree Golfie. We have totally been let down by the establishment. When Cameron decided to fuck off, he should have been replaced by someone who truly believed in brexit. We were handed someone who didn’t & is now being laughed at and pushed around by Europe. God knows where this will end up.
The two candidates were Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom.
Leadsom was a strong campaigner for Leave and continues to be strongly pro-Brexit.
What do you think she would have been able to achieve by this point, had she been made Prime Minster?
Probably the most hypothetical I’ve ever been asked. I’ll answer that Chizz if you answer how long a piece of string is 😃
You've suggested that Cameron should have been replace by someone who "truly believed in Brexit" @stop shouting. And you've said that we were "handed" someone who didn't. It seems as if you're suggesting that the UK's failure to carve out an acceptable deal is due to the fact the Prime Minister didn't support Leave. Is that the case? And if so, it's fair to ask to what extent we would be in a less pitiful position now, had we appointed the alternative Prime Minister, ie Andrea Leadsom.
So, if we are in the current parlous state because the Prime Minster supported Remain, what position would we be in if the Prime Minister had bean the Leave-supporting alternative?
Leadsom would have formed her cabinet of mainly brexiteer’s. For me this is important because I don’t believe we can deliver the brexit the country voted for by people that don’t believe in it. The european negotiators know they are dealing with someone who is playing a weak hand and that’s why they are taking advantage of it. That Instagram put down by Tusk backs that up.
Leadsom has said that she doesnt believe that EU migrants should get preferential access to come to the uk because she would rather see the brightest and best migrants from around the world given the chance to make a contribution to the UK. May’s favoured immigration system does show bias to EU migrants. This is a big point for me and something I believe Leadsom is right on.
So, apart from Leadsom sayin she "doesn't believe that EU migrants should get preferential access to come to the uk" (which is May's position too), would she have concluded a deal with the EU by now?
Simply, do you believe Leadsom would have reached a deal over Brexit and therefore the fact we don't have a deal is Theresa May's fault? Or do you believe she also would have failed, as she would also be unable to secure a party or Parliamentary majority for her version?
It's a really important issue that you have brought up. Personally, I don't agree that a different leader would have created a solution leading to a deal by now. That's because I think Brexit is a flawed idea anyway. But are you saying that Leadsom would have achieved it, where May has failed? And, if so, where does that leave democracy in the UK? Because the "will of the people" was that Theresa may was re-elected as PM.
I have said on here recently that I don't mind another Referendum......but I won't ever vote again in any election (GE or local). Don't bother to ask for my vote because you can't deliver what you asked me.
I now truely beleive that Brexit can not be acheived. We can not leave the EU. It is simply not possible unless either ;
1) There is a United Ireland so the border problem is not an issue.
or
2) Some hard nosed Politician does the unthinkable & agrees to (and builds) a hard border between NI & ROI
Probably everything else can be sorted out.....eventually. But the above problem cant. Not now.Maybe in 20 -30 years time perhaps.
I agree Golfie. We have totally been let down by the establishment. When Cameron decided to fuck off, he should have been replaced by someone who truly believed in brexit. We were handed someone who didn’t & is now being laughed at and pushed around by Europe. God knows where this will end up.
The two candidates were Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom.
Leadsom was a strong campaigner for Leave and continues to be strongly pro-Brexit.
What do you think she would have been able to achieve by this point, had she been made Prime Minster?
Probably the most hypothetical I’ve ever been asked. I’ll answer that Chizz if you answer how long a piece of string is 😃
You've suggested that Cameron should have been replace by someone who "truly believed in Brexit" @stop shouting. And you've said that we were "handed" someone who didn't. It seems as if you're suggesting that the UK's failure to carve out an acceptable deal is due to the fact the Prime Minister didn't support Leave. Is that the case? And if so, it's fair to ask to what extent we would be in a less pitiful position now, had we appointed the alternative Prime Minister, ie Andrea Leadsom.
So, if we are in the current parlous state because the Prime Minster supported Remain, what position would we be in if the Prime Minister had bean the Leave-supporting alternative?
Leadsom would have formed her cabinet of mainly brexiteer’s. For me this is important because I don’t believe we can deliver the brexit the country voted for by people that don’t believe in it. The european negotiators know they are dealing with someone who is playing a weak hand and that’s why they are taking advantage of it. That Instagram put down by Tusk backs that up.
Leadsom has said that she doesnt believe that EU migrants should get preferential access to come to the uk because she would rather see the brightest and best migrants from around the world given the chance to make a contribution to the UK. May’s favoured immigration system does show bias to EU migrants. This is a big point for me and something I believe Leadsom is right on.
So, apart from Leadsom sayin she "doesn't believe that EU migrants should get preferential access to come to the uk" (which is May's position too), would she have concluded a deal with the EU by now?
Simply, do you believe Leadsom would have reached a deal over Brexit and therefore the fact we don't have a deal is Theresa May's fault? Or do you believe she also would have failed, as she would also be unable to secure a party or Parliamentary majority for her version?
It's a really important issue that you have brought up. Personally, I don't agree that a different leader would have created a solution leading to a deal by now. That's because I think Brexit is a flawed idea anyway. But are you saying that Leadsom would have achieved it, where May has failed? And, if so, where does that leave democracy in the UK? Because the "will of the people" was that Theresa may was re-elected as PM.
I’ll simplify my answer. Do I believe that if we had a brexiteer as prime minister, we would be in a stronger position and nearer to a deal than we are now? Absolutely.
Nothing will convince me that a remainer will be able to deliver the brexit the country voted for.
It’s interesting that you bring up democracy and I totally agree with you that as Mrs May was voted in by the country to deliver brexit, she should be the one to deliver it. My issue is that she is doing it very badly and the tories should have chosen a breixteer pm. But democracy works both ways Chizz & that’s why we can’t have a second referendum despite the remainers demanding one. If that happened, how could anyone trust a democratic vote again.
"we can't have another election, if that happened, how could anyone trust a democratic vote again"
See how ridiculous that sounds? People keep throwing around the word undemocratic, I don't think it means what you think it does. Democracy isn't a one time event, it is an ongoing process. Suggesting we stop that process for fear public opinion has changed is the most undemocratic thing I have ever heard.
I still can’t get the whole the EU haven’t been flexible thing. We haven’t put forward anything of substance other than the divorce bill and an extension of free movement between now and when we leave. I could be wrong, but I can’t thing of anything else
That, and I doubt little else will convince them to compromise on the 4 freedoms. We offer up anything that compromises those, or a hard border in NI then it won’t pass. I’m not an expert in negotiation at all but if you start out and one party says we aren’t budging on X, then remove it from the negotiations. We seem to keep offering up half arsed ideas that we’re not 100% sure would work, so how the hell are the EU going to say, okay, let’s roll with it.
It’s mental
I get people want to trade with us but to my understanding, there is a clear line in the sand drawn.
I have said on here recently that I don't mind another Referendum......but I won't ever vote again in any election (GE or local). Don't bother to ask for my vote because you can't deliver what you asked me.
I now truely beleive that Brexit can not be acheived. We can not leave the EU. It is simply not possible unless either ;
1) There is a United Ireland so the border problem is not an issue.
or
2) Some hard nosed Politician does the unthinkable & agrees to (and builds) a hard border between NI & ROI
Probably everything else can be sorted out.....eventually. But the above problem cant. Not now.Maybe in 20 -30 years time perhaps.
I agree Golfie. We have totally been let down by the establishment. When Cameron decided to fuck off, he should have been replaced by someone who truly believed in brexit. We were handed someone who didn’t & is now being laughed at and pushed around by Europe. God knows where this will end up.
The two candidates were Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom.
Leadsom was a strong campaigner for Leave and continues to be strongly pro-Brexit.
What do you think she would have been able to achieve by this point, had she been made Prime Minster?
Probably the most hypothetical I’ve ever been asked. I’ll answer that Chizz if you answer how long a piece of string is 😃
You've suggested that Cameron should have been replace by someone who "truly believed in Brexit" @stop shouting. And you've said that we were "handed" someone who didn't. It seems as if you're suggesting that the UK's failure to carve out an acceptable deal is due to the fact the Prime Minister didn't support Leave. Is that the case? And if so, it's fair to ask to what extent we would be in a less pitiful position now, had we appointed the alternative Prime Minister, ie Andrea Leadsom.
So, if we are in the current parlous state because the Prime Minster supported Remain, what position would we be in if the Prime Minister had bean the Leave-supporting alternative?
Leadsom would have formed her cabinet of mainly brexiteer’s. For me this is important because I don’t believe we can deliver the brexit the country voted for by people that don’t believe in it. The european negotiators know they are dealing with someone who is playing a weak hand and that’s why they are taking advantage of it. That Instagram put down by Tusk backs that up.
Leadsom has said that she doesnt believe that EU migrants should get preferential access to come to the uk because she would rather see the brightest and best migrants from around the world given the chance to make a contribution to the UK. May’s favoured immigration system does show bias to EU migrants. This is a big point for me and something I believe Leadsom is right on.
So, apart from Leadsom sayin she "doesn't believe that EU migrants should get preferential access to come to the uk" (which is May's position too), would she have concluded a deal with the EU by now?
Simply, do you believe Leadsom would have reached a deal over Brexit and therefore the fact we don't have a deal is Theresa May's fault? Or do you believe she also would have failed, as she would also be unable to secure a party or Parliamentary majority for her version?
It's a really important issue that you have brought up. Personally, I don't agree that a different leader would have created a solution leading to a deal by now. That's because I think Brexit is a flawed idea anyway. But are you saying that Leadsom would have achieved it, where May has failed? And, if so, where does that leave democracy in the UK? Because the "will of the people" was that Theresa may was re-elected as PM.
I’ll simplify my answer. Do I believe that if we had a brexiteer as prime minister, we would be in a stronger position and nearer to a deal than we are now? Absolutely.
Nothing will convince me that a remainer will be able to deliver the brexit the country voted for.
It’s interesting that you bring up democracy and I totally agree with you that as Mrs May was voted in by the country to deliver brexit, she should be the one to deliver it. My issue is that she is doing it very badly and the tories should have chosen a breixteer pm. But democracy works both ways Chizz & that’s why we can’t have a second referendum despite the remainers demanding one. If that happened, how could anyone trust a democratic vote again.
Let me press you a bit further. What would Leadsom offer that would have the support of her party and would clinch the deal, that May has missed?
I'm asking because I think there's no agreed deal because any deal would make every one worse off. But if there's something - anything - that Leadsom has in her armoury that would unlock the deal, what is it?
I have never been more convinced in my lifetime that we need a clean break from the Eu. The EU could have offered Cameron something to come back with. They gave him nothing. Even when we voted to leave they could have tried to keep us in. And even now when May bends over backwards to salvage something they still say no. I am in a very small minority on this thread but I say fuck em. If they will not compromise on what May is offering then tell them that the 39 billion divorce bill is cancelled. Go for a hard Brexit and take our chances in the wider world. Fuck the EU.
You simply have no grasp of reality all do you?
Why say that? Blackpool’s given an opinion and you just trash him with zero comeback. Pointless. I bet you’ve got form for saying stuff like “there are no words” and “absolute parody”.
Thanks for the back up. The problem is although Brexit won the people on here are almost certainly remain. It is very hard to argue when most on here voted remain. In the real world most did not
It might make it a lonelier job, but weight of numbers shouldn't make arguing for something any more of a difficult task. Not if you've got well reasoned thinking backed up with pertinent facts.
The news coverage today gives us some clues given that the Tory conference convenes in a week.... May has stuck to version 0.1 of Chequers in the knowledge that it won't be accepted AND that she cannot give way before conference else she is toast!
Tusk and the rest have said come back in a month - the can is kicked... there has been a miscommunication but so what?!
@NornIrishAddick might correct me if this political calculation / observation is incorrect but a piece on the radio has helped join the dots: May talked to constitutional integrity of the UK this week - what she actually meant is that she simply cannot move without DUP support. And the DUP will not countenance support for anything which draws a line in the Irish Sea.
And the Irish Sea option has to exist unless the UK is committed to the Customs Union for GB and not just N.Ireland... and complete regulatory alignment with the EU to ensure that the Irish border remains invisible.
The ultimate arbitration MUST reside with the ECJ for the EU cannot "outsource" jurisdiction to the UK or even a joint authority.
Something has to give on the Chequers side and the DUP will not support any solution which meets the EU requirement, unless it applies to the whole of the UK. Just like a Suduko puzzle where mistakes are made early on, one has to go back to first principles.
Funnily enough the EU27 never moved from a rules based approach - Let's see what Chequers version 0.4 or 0.5 looks like.
Starmer did get interviewed by Crick earlier in the day, but there wasn't anyone on the live show, just a random pro-Brexit Tory backbencher and Justine Greening.
Break the whole Bexit debacle to its very basics. Your a member of a bowls/snooker club and you don't like the rules, you don't like the subscriptions and you think you be better off playing for another club. BUT - you'd still like to play against the people of your choosing, on the days you want to play. You don't want to abide by the rules or pay the subscriptions. When they reject your generous proposals you accuse them of being disrespectful. Unbelievable.
I posted last year about my insider at the top of this government. He said at the time "This country will be fucked without an agreement with the E.U. Mrs May is attempting to limit the damage that Brexit will inflict on this country.
sorry folks that should read. I posted last year about my insider at the top of this government. He said at the time "This country will be fucked without an agreement with the E.U". Mrs May is attempting to limit the damage that Brexit will inflict on this country.
sorry folks that should read. I posted last year about my insider at the top of this government. He said at the time "This country will be fucked without an agreement with the E.U". Mrs May is attempting to limit the damage that Brexit will inflict on this country.
Break the whole Bexit debacle to its very basics. Your a member of a bowls/snooker club and you don't like the rules, you don't like the subscriptions and you think you be better off playing for another club. BUT - you'd still like to play against the people of your choosing, on the days you want to play. You don't want to abide by the rules or pay the subscriptions. When they reject your generous proposals you accuse them of being disrespectful. Unbelievable.
Comments
Cameron did it all back to front and May is making the exact same mistakes. First you try and get a consensus on treaty change, then once you've got that you get the treaties amended, and only then do you ask for things that are now possible.
We know all the EUs rules and laws, we helped form then, so it is madness to keep.asking for things we know we can't have, and then get angry when we're told we can't have them.
The EU did offer Cameron something to come back with, there were additional concessions agreed prior to the Referendum, despite the fact that the UK did not use the existing tools available to it (which were automatically rescinded once the UK voted to leave). The problem is that what Cameron asked for required Treaty change - but he was not prepared to put in the work, or be honest with the UK electorate about what was required - which would have required referenda across Europe. The EU Council could not give Cameron what he wanted, because they do not have that power within the EU constitutional framework.
EU leaders made it clear that they regretted the UK's decision, but respecting the sovereignty of the UK, they cannot keep the UK in the EU, and can do nothing more than express regret (with a possible invitation to reconsider).
Theresa May is not bending over backwards. She has backed herself into a corner. The problem with her position is that, like that nice Mr. Cameron, she is effectively demanding that the change its founding principles to suit the UK.
She takes two years to come up with any kind of plan for a future trading relationship, having rejected out of hand any number of options available off the shelf (for tweaking) from the EU, on the basis of her red lines. Having rejected, out of hand, EU suggestions, she now complains that the EU27 reject out of hand hers, despite the EU making clear over the months since the Referendum (not just the last few days) that they would not demolish the foundations of the EU to suit her. Anyone with half a brain would have recognised that the founding Treaty of what has become the EU is not the subject of the UK's exit negotiations (nor of the political agreement about the outline of any trading relationship); to expect it to be amended to suit a third country is just bonkers.
She has, both herself and her Ministers, sought to renege on what has been agreed to date or, in the case of Michael Gove (deliberately, IMHO, to undermine her this week), announce that they will not negotiate in good faith. An example is the proposed backstop for the Irish Border - it was always the case that a legally binding and (as the EU27 say) all weather form of words was required, and the intention was that it should never be required, provided a suitable trading relationship could be arrived at, that would remove the need for change on the border.
The EU27 put forward their suggestion for a legally binding solution, formally rejected by Mrs. May for the UK in March, and several times since. The EU27 have since attempted to find a way to amend what they believe is the only workable solution, amendments which have also been rejected. Meanwhile we still await the UK Government to make any form of suggestion about a possible backstop (because, as seems clear, the UK Government continues its policy of wilfully misunderstanding what the EU is about, assuming that the rest of the EU would throw Ireland under the bus if they managed to avoid any substantive negotiations until the eleventh hour - hence the oft-repeated claim that a deal will only be struck at the last minute because that's what happens with internal EU negotiations, which sadly ignores that the current Brexit negotiations are at best semi-detached).
The Chequers Plan is not offering, it is demanding many of the benefits of membership of the Single Market, without the associated obligations. For the EU27 to agree to it is not compromise but surrender of their principles. The UK can certainly state that it will not pay for its commitments, freely made before the EU Referendum, but such a decision will have consequences - not the least that the level of fucking over of the economy in Northern Ireland alone would see that amount, if not more, disbursed to address the damage that a chaotic Brexit would cause and the inevitable introduction of a hard border over here. Walking away in that manner would, almost by definition, mean that the EU would not negotiate any FTA with the UK any time soon, it would not encourage its trading partners to grandfather (I hope I'm using the right term) their deals for the UK's benefit, and they could prove less than cooperative over the UK's WTO schedules if they wanted to play silly buggers (not that they'd have any reason to feel pissed off).
The UK could try to follow your suggestion of fucking the EU, but that could prove rather, shall we say, premature; and seek to entice others from the wider world who will insist on their trade intercourse being without the sort of protection on which UK consumers have relied for decades... While the US Government will probably seek to reassure by suggesting that the beast with two backs is just an entirely safe genetically modified heifer.
The problem is although Brexit won the people on here are almost certainly remain.
It is very hard to argue when most on here voted remain.
In the real world most did not
What on earth were the EU meant to say to May? She can’t agree her Chequers deal with her own party. It therefore won’t get past Parliament, let alone come back to the EU in any recognisable form.
She surrounded herself with a bunch of failed career politicians and still gets manipulated by a non-entity and his ERG cronies. A non-entity acting against his own constituents. They’re the same as Johnson, all bluster, except without the court jester garb.
Simply, do you believe Leadsom would have reached a deal over Brexit and therefore the fact we don't have a deal is Theresa May's fault? Or do you believe she also would have failed, as she would also be unable to secure a party or Parliamentary majority for her version?
It's a really important issue that you have brought up. Personally, I don't agree that a different leader would have created a solution leading to a deal by now. That's because I think Brexit is a flawed idea anyway. But are you saying that Leadsom would have achieved it, where May has failed? And, if so, where does that leave democracy in the UK? Because the "will of the people" was that Theresa may was re-elected as PM.
Nothing will convince me that a remainer will be able to deliver the brexit the country voted for.
It’s interesting that you bring up democracy and I totally agree with you that as Mrs May was voted in by the country to deliver brexit, she should be the one to deliver it. My issue is that she is doing it very badly and the tories should have chosen a breixteer pm. But democracy works both ways Chizz & that’s why we can’t have a second referendum despite the remainers demanding one. If that happened, how could anyone trust a democratic vote again.
See how ridiculous that sounds? People keep throwing around the word undemocratic, I don't think it means what you think it does. Democracy isn't a one time event, it is an ongoing process. Suggesting we stop that process for fear public opinion has changed is the most undemocratic thing I have ever heard.
That, and I doubt little else will convince them to compromise on the 4 freedoms. We offer up anything that compromises those, or a hard border in NI then it won’t pass. I’m not an expert in negotiation at all but if you start out and one party says we aren’t budging on X, then remove it from the negotiations. We seem to keep offering up half arsed ideas that we’re not 100% sure would work, so how the hell are the EU going to say, okay, let’s roll with it.
It’s mental
I get people want to trade with us but to my understanding, there is a clear line in the sand drawn.
I’m baffled by it
Mind you, I think there's an element of Arlene worrying that she considers the EU27 to be trying to move in on her USP....
I'm asking because I think there's no agreed deal because any deal would make every one worse off. But if there's something - anything - that Leadsom has in her armoury that would unlock the deal, what is it?
Tusk and the rest have said come back in a month - the can is kicked... there has been a miscommunication but so what?!
@NornIrishAddick might correct me if this political calculation / observation is incorrect but a piece on the radio has helped join the dots:
May talked to constitutional integrity of the UK this week - what she actually meant is that she simply cannot move without DUP support. And the DUP will not countenance support for anything which draws a line in the Irish Sea.
And the Irish Sea option has to exist unless the UK is committed to the Customs Union for GB and not just N.Ireland... and complete regulatory alignment with the EU to ensure that the Irish border remains invisible.
The ultimate arbitration MUST reside with the ECJ for the EU cannot "outsource" jurisdiction to the UK or even a joint authority.
Something has to give on the Chequers side and the DUP will not support any solution which meets the EU requirement, unless it applies to the whole of the UK. Just like a Suduko puzzle where mistakes are made early on, one has to go back to first principles.
Funnily enough the EU27 never moved from a rules based approach - Let's see what Chequers version 0.4 or 0.5 looks like.
Your a member of a bowls/snooker club and you don't like the rules, you don't like the subscriptions and you think you be better off playing for another club.
BUT - you'd still like to play against the people of your choosing, on the days you want to play.
You don't want to abide by the rules or pay the subscriptions.
When they reject your generous proposals you accuse them of being disrespectful.
Unbelievable.
He said at the time "This country will be fucked without an agreement with the E.U.
Mrs May is attempting to limit the damage that Brexit will inflict on this country.
I posted last year about my insider at the top of this government.
He said at the time "This country will be fucked without an agreement with the E.U".
Mrs May is attempting to limit the damage that Brexit will inflict on this country.