The one thing everyone on here seems to agree on is that the British public was grossly ill-informed during the original referendum.
Yup.
As I have said, I am convinced there is another step to come.
Incidentally, would it not be impossible for MPs to vote until they knew the full picture, i.e. including details of a future trade deal?
Yes but I think the disagreement is on whether the UK will fall out of the EU automatically without a vote and the deal with the EU is a separate issue or whether our exit from the EU is contingent on MPs agreeing with the final deal or, if they don't like it, then they vote to ratify a no deal Brexit. Unfortunately the language coming from Downing Street is deliberately vague as I imagine they don't want to give the impression that there is any chance whatsoever that MPs could block Brexit at the final hurdle. Bear in mind that May is walking an incredibly fine tightrope and as soon as the Brexit wing of her MPs get a whiff of any possible indication that she may allow Brexit to be blocked, she will be facing a rebellion.
I am sure that, ultimately, it will be blocked ... they are just trying to work out how to do it and how to get away with it.
Phew. And there was me thinking 'proves my point' and Prague goes and proves me wrong within a couple of hours of the announcement.
Encouraging but still a case of 'could do better'. Just waiting for Fiishy to decry the news as fiddled figures.
I have never seen him do that, and why would he need to? If that figure is repeated in Q4 , the GDP growth for the year will be 1.3%. That is not a good figure at all, given that it will be right at the bottom end of the European GDP league . Most importantly, it is lower than the forecasts which underpin the current budget. That means the government cannot afford the commitments it has already made in spending terms, let alone commit to new spending. Therefore the issues which really matter to the UK and could improve everyone's lives, namely NHS funding, elderly care funding, infrastructure improvement, fairer Uni. fee funding, etc etc, will be spun out of sight while we get on with the monstrous irrelevance of Brexit. "Could do better" indeed. Could have done a lot better.
The one thing everyone on here seems to agree on is that the British public was grossly ill-informed during the original referendum.
Yup.
As I have said, I am convinced there is another step to come.
Incidentally, would it not be impossible for MPs to vote until they knew the full picture, i.e. including details of a future trade deal?
Yes but I think the disagreement is on whether the UK will fall out of the EU automatically without a vote and the deal with the EU is a separate issue or whether our exit from the EU is contingent on MPs agreeing with the final deal or, if they don't like it, then they vote to ratify a no deal Brexit. Unfortunately the language coming from Downing Street is deliberately vague as I imagine they don't want to give the impression that there is any chance whatsoever that MPs could block Brexit at the final hurdle. Bear in mind that May is walking an incredibly fine tightrope and as soon as the Brexit wing of her MPs get a whiff of any possible indication that she may allow Brexit to be blocked, she will be facing a rebellion.
I am sure that, ultimately, it will be blocked ... they are just trying to work out how to do it and how to get away with it.
Will it be blocked, won't it be blocked...
As much as I would like it to be blocked all that would happen is even more political wrangling and fallout. It is by no means the easy option. Until a second referendum overturns the first one then it will continue to dominate the agenda.
Phew. And there was me thinking 'proves my point' and Prague goes and proves me wrong within a couple of hours of the announcement.
Encouraging but still a case of 'could do better'. Just waiting for Fiishy to decry the news as fiddled figures.
I have never seen him do that, and why would he need to? If that figure is repeated in Q4 , the GDP growth for the year will be 1.3%. That is not a good figure at all, given that it will be right at the bottom end of the European GDP league . Most importantly, it is lower than the forecasts which underpin the current budget. That means the government cannot afford the commitments it has already made in spending terms, let alone commit to new spending. Therefore the issues which really matter to the UK and could improve everyone's lives, namely NHS funding, elderly care funding, infrastructure improvement, fairer Uni. fee funding, etc etc, will be spun out of sight while we get on with the monstrous irrelevance of Brexit. "Could do better" indeed. Could have done a lot better.
To be fair I have stated previously employment figures are fiddled. Which, to be fair, they are. Easy to claim unemployment is falling when thousands of people are defined out of unemployment.
The one thing everyone on here seems to agree on is that the British public was grossly ill-informed during the original referendum.
Yup.
As I have said, I am convinced there is another step to come.
Incidentally, would it not be impossible for MPs to vote until they knew the full picture, i.e. including details of a future trade deal?
Yes but I think the disagreement is on whether the UK will fall out of the EU automatically without a vote and the deal with the EU is a separate issue or whether our exit from the EU is contingent on MPs agreeing with the final deal or, if they don't like it, then they vote to ratify a no deal Brexit. Unfortunately the language coming from Downing Street is deliberately vague as I imagine they don't want to give the impression that there is any chance whatsoever that MPs could block Brexit at the final hurdle. Bear in mind that May is walking an incredibly fine tightrope and as soon as the Brexit wing of her MPs get a whiff of any possible indication that she may allow Brexit to be blocked, she will be facing a rebellion.
I am sure that, ultimately, it will be blocked ... they are just trying to work out how to do it and how to get away with it.
Will it be blocked, won't it be blocked...
As much as I would like it to be blocked all that would happen is even more political wrangling and fallout. It is by no means the easy option. Until a second referendum overturns the first one then it will continue to dominate the agenda.
Come the final reckoning I think that the British public will be given a chance to vote on the final deal on offer.
Not because the government whomever that might be at the time will feel the people have the right to speak. It will be because whatever the outcome the politicians can pass the buck and get off the hook finally and fulfilling the will of the people.
I’m hoping that common sense prevails at this point and Brexit is abandoned. The whole sorry episode will be the biggest exercise in stupidity ever undertaken.
The one thing everyone on here seems to agree on is that the British public was grossly ill-informed during the original referendum.
Yup.
As I have said, I am convinced there is another step to come.
Incidentally, would it not be impossible for MPs to vote until they knew the full picture, i.e. including details of a future trade deal?
Yes but I think the disagreement is on whether the UK will fall out of the EU automatically without a vote and the deal with the EU is a separate issue or whether our exit from the EU is contingent on MPs agreeing with the final deal or, if they don't like it, then they vote to ratify a no deal Brexit. Unfortunately the language coming from Downing Street is deliberately vague as I imagine they don't want to give the impression that there is any chance whatsoever that MPs could block Brexit at the final hurdle. Bear in mind that May is walking an incredibly fine tightrope and as soon as the Brexit wing of her MPs get a whiff of any possible indication that she may allow Brexit to be blocked, she will be facing a rebellion.
I am sure that, ultimately, it will be blocked ... they are just trying to work out how to do it and how to get away with it.
Will it be blocked, won't it be blocked...
As much as I would like it to be blocked all that would happen is even more political wrangling and fallout. It is by no means the easy option. Until a second referendum overturns the first one then it will continue to dominate the agenda.
Come the final reckoning I think that the British public will be given a chance to vote on the final deal on offer.
So do I ... and it will be overturned unfortunately.
I cannot see there being a second referendum under any circumstances.
Will be a very bold government to push through something that they know will damage the economy for years.
Politicians are not known for doing bold.
As I've said before on one of the many other Brexit threads - the primary objective of any government is to protect its citizens - from themselves if necessary.
The problem is Parliament is paralyzed in fear of public opinion on the matter and as such are no longer fit to make a decision in the national interest. Despite the fact that the vast majority of MPs want to stay in the EU or, at the very least, have a deal that keeps us in the single market/customs union, hardly anyone wants to state their opposition to the crazy train that Mayhem and her minions are taking us all on out of sheer terror of being branded traitors. As such in their diminished responsibility it falls to the people to have thei fnal say, for better or for worse.
It would also neatly allow May to avoid being labelled as the person who took Britain into a completely disastrous Brexit by at least claiming it was the people who had the final say. Since she is only concerned with shoring up her legacy, she must have at least drafted a plan for another referendum - she knows it is her only way out of this mess.
In any case a second referendum would be on yes or no to the deal. Not a straight in or out question.
Semantics perhaps but there is wriggle room for the politicos there.
Problem with that is, if it’s a no to the deal then what? Theresa goes back cap in hand saying please sir can I have some more? Could cause an already lengthy process to be delayed even further.
Then we all get pissed off as we’ve had to go vote five times in a year
In any case a second referendum would be on yes or no to the deal. Not a straight in or out question.
Semantics perhaps but there is wriggle room for the politicos there.
The problem with that approach (and I don't disagree with you, it's the sort of thing a government would do to pass the buck) is that the alternative if the deal on offer was rejected in a second referendum would be 'no deal' as there would not be sufficient time to renegotiate.
I cannot see there being a second referendum under any circumstances.
Will be a very bold government to push through something that they know will damage the economy for years.
Politicians are not known for doing bold.
Would be a very, very bold politician/group of politicians (and exactly what we need) to stand up and say we cannot push through the deal in the event they believe it will damage the economy for years. Especially if they are involved in the trade discussions right now.
I cannot see there being a second referendum under any circumstances.
Me neither, far too democratic. Nor can I see how a vote in principle for or against the deal in Parliament would work, especially as there is no sign there will be a complete deal by 2019 anyway. Sure
@Southbank has frequently used that phrase, and presumably had them in mind when he wrote (my emphasis in bold)
"And unfortunately in the process it comes across as despising ordinary people who voted for Brexit and painting them as stupid and gullible. Is the idea, do you think, that if you insult people for long enought they will change their minds?"
Right then. Here is a serious test. For those of you who think Remainers are "The out of touch metropolitan elite", let's define what you actually mean by the phrase, in terms of the debate on Charlton Life and its most regular posters. Based on your perceptions, please explain why you think a certain Lifer is OOTME and another not. To help start it, i'll just name some regular posters to the Brexit threads
And anyone else I've missed who regularly reflects the spectrum of opinion
"Metropolitan" is interesting because if we are all Charlton supporters it surely means we were all born and raised in a great metropolis. "Out of touch" will be more difficult because if you disagree with a Remain poster, you may automatically think he or she is "out of touch". Is there a Remain poster whom you think is not out of touch, whereas someone, say me, is? What's the difference between them?
Which then brings us to "elite". This will be the interesting one. Who on CL is in the elite, and who is not? Most importantly why do you put them there? Define it. What are the criteria? Perceived wealth? Education? Command of the language? Perceived reasons why the Lifer has good reason to be "disenchanted" while another one does not?
Let's try to keep it civil (if you want to let rip at OOTME types, and you think I symbolise them, by all means let rip at me, but tell me why you put me in that group).
I think it's about time that jibe was brought out in the open and thoroughly examined (and not just on CL). Who is ready to give it a go?
So you want me to define a phrase I have never used?
Erm, not sure it was me, but I do use the word 'elite' because I have met them and they really exist in all walks of life.
Respect to you for being the first one on here to own up to it.
The implication of the way you have written that is that you do not consider Remainers on here to be part of this "elite". Is that fair to conclude?
I've seen several example of Brexiteers on here coming out with it, and implying that 'we' belong to it. If they are not prepared to come forward and at least explain their definition of 'elite' and therefore why they are 'out of touch", then I trust that such a label will never be thrown again, explicitly or implied, on Remainers on this thread.
The point behind this is that if you go on any discussion page where the Brexit argument is raging, I guarantee you that those putting a Remain POV forward will have it thrown at them. But of course it is all anonymous, behind keyboards, and very few of them are regularly meeting each other even in cyberspace. I thought it might be interesting to pin this issue down among people who "know" each other better, some even personally. I know who I am thinking of too, but they are keeping quiet on this, so far...
Well...according to analysis of the vote, those whom I would consider make up the elite voted overwhelmingly for Remain, so in short hand the elite view is Remain.
Onviously not everybody who voted Remain is part of the elite, but they share the elite view.
I cannot see there being a second referendum under any circumstances.
Me neither, far too democratic. Nor can I see how a vote in principle for or against the deal in Parliament would work, especially as there is no sign there will be a complete deal by 2019 anyway. Sure
@Southbank has frequently used that phrase, and presumably had them in mind when he wrote (my emphasis in bold)
"And unfortunately in the process it comes across as despising ordinary people who voted for Brexit and painting them as stupid and gullible. Is the idea, do you think, that if you insult people for long enought they will change their minds?"
Right then. Here is a serious test. For those of you who think Remainers are "The out of touch metropolitan elite", let's define what you actually mean by the phrase, in terms of the debate on Charlton Life and its most regular posters. Based on your perceptions, please explain why you think a certain Lifer is OOTME and another not. To help start it, i'll just name some regular posters to the Brexit threads
And anyone else I've missed who regularly reflects the spectrum of opinion
"Metropolitan" is interesting because if we are all Charlton supporters it surely means we were all born and raised in a great metropolis. "Out of touch" will be more difficult because if you disagree with a Remain poster, you may automatically think he or she is "out of touch". Is there a Remain poster whom you think is not out of touch, whereas someone, say me, is? What's the difference between them?
Which then brings us to "elite". This will be the interesting one. Who on CL is in the elite, and who is not? Most importantly why do you put them there? Define it. What are the criteria? Perceived wealth? Education? Command of the language? Perceived reasons why the Lifer has good reason to be "disenchanted" while another one does not?
Let's try to keep it civil (if you want to let rip at OOTME types, and you think I symbolise them, by all means let rip at me, but tell me why you put me in that group).
I think it's about time that jibe was brought out in the open and thoroughly examined (and not just on CL). Who is ready to give it a go?
So you want me to define a phrase I have never used?
Erm, not sure it was me, but I do use the word 'elite' because I have met them and they really exist in all walks of life.
Respect to you for being the first one on here to own up to it.
The implication of the way you have written that is that you do not consider Remainers on here to be part of this "elite". Is that fair to conclude?
I've seen several example of Brexiteers on here coming out with it, and implying that 'we' belong to it. If they are not prepared to come forward and at least explain their definition of 'elite' and therefore why they are 'out of touch", then I trust that such a label will never be thrown again, explicitly or implied, on Remainers on this thread.
The point behind this is that if you go on any discussion page where the Brexit argument is raging, I guarantee you that those putting a Remain POV forward will have it thrown at them. But of course it is all anonymous, behind keyboards, and very few of them are regularly meeting each other even in cyberspace. I thought it might be interesting to pin this issue down among people who "know" each other better, some even personally. I know who I am thinking of too, but they are keeping quiet on this, so far...
Well...according to analysis of the vote, those whom I would consider make up the elite voted overwhelmingly for Remain, so in short hand the elite view is Remain.
Onviously not everybody who voted Remain is part of the elite, but they share the elite view.
Ah, right then, this is more like what I wanted to discuss..
Please define "the elite" then. You've met examples of "them", you tell us, so it should be quite illuminating
I can see two problems with the possibility of a vote on a deal that "might" stop Brexit.
1. It takes two to tango (admittedly, in this case, 28);
2. The UK decision would almost certainly have to be taken in advance of any EU Parliament vote and EU27 national decisions. I don't think there's enough time.
I cannot see there being a second referendum under any circumstances.
Me neither, far too democratic. Nor can I see how a vote in principle for or against the deal in Parliament would work, especially as there is no sign there will be a complete deal by 2019 anyway. Sure
@Southbank has frequently used that phrase, and presumably had them in mind when he wrote (my emphasis in bold)
"And unfortunately in the process it comes across as despising ordinary people who voted for Brexit and painting them as stupid and gullible. Is the idea, do you think, that if you insult people for long enought they will change their minds?"
Right then. Here is a serious test. For those of you who think Remainers are "The out of touch metropolitan elite", let's define what you actually mean by the phrase, in terms of the debate on Charlton Life and its most regular posters. Based on your perceptions, please explain why you think a certain Lifer is OOTME and another not. To help start it, i'll just name some regular posters to the Brexit threads
And anyone else I've missed who regularly reflects the spectrum of opinion
"Metropolitan" is interesting because if we are all Charlton supporters it surely means we were all born and raised in a great metropolis. "Out of touch" will be more difficult because if you disagree with a Remain poster, you may automatically think he or she is "out of touch". Is there a Remain poster whom you think is not out of touch, whereas someone, say me, is? What's the difference between them?
Which then brings us to "elite". This will be the interesting one. Who on CL is in the elite, and who is not? Most importantly why do you put them there? Define it. What are the criteria? Perceived wealth? Education? Command of the language? Perceived reasons why the Lifer has good reason to be "disenchanted" while another one does not?
Let's try to keep it civil (if you want to let rip at OOTME types, and you think I symbolise them, by all means let rip at me, but tell me why you put me in that group).
I think it's about time that jibe was brought out in the open and thoroughly examined (and not just on CL). Who is ready to give it a go?
So you want me to define a phrase I have never used?
Erm, not sure it was me, but I do use the word 'elite' because I have met them and they really exist in all walks of life.
Respect to you for being the first one on here to own up to it.
The implication of the way you have written that is that you do not consider Remainers on here to be part of this "elite". Is that fair to conclude?
I've seen several example of Brexiteers on here coming out with it, and implying that 'we' belong to it. If they are not prepared to come forward and at least explain their definition of 'elite' and therefore why they are 'out of touch", then I trust that such a label will never be thrown again, explicitly or implied, on Remainers on this thread.
The point behind this is that if you go on any discussion page where the Brexit argument is raging, I guarantee you that those putting a Remain POV forward will have it thrown at them. But of course it is all anonymous, behind keyboards, and very few of them are regularly meeting each other even in cyberspace. I thought it might be interesting to pin this issue down among people who "know" each other better, some even personally. I know who I am thinking of too, but they are keeping quiet on this, so far...
Well...according to analysis of the vote, those whom I would consider make up the elite voted overwhelmingly for Remain, so in short hand the elite view is Remain.
Onviously not everybody who voted Remain is part of the elite, but they share the elite view.
In a previous response you stated "There is a cultural divide across the western world between on the one hand those who believe in globalisation, immigration, government by technocrats and modern liberalism and on the other those who feel threatened by these things". I'm assuming the beliefs you listed constitute 'elitism' - please correct me if I'm wrong.
If there is a divide then a reasonable conclusion, and somewhat more detailed than 'feeling threatened by them' would be the opposites? So the other side of the divide would be protectionism, nationalism, government by Luddites (not an obvious antonym to technocrat but the best I could do) and totalitarianism.
*deviantart cartoon of Davis at the prow of some fucking warship steaming away from the sunken wreck of the Bismarck, atop which Merkel angrily protests*
Bloody good bloke, knows how to break a man's neck, have a bloody good pint with him
Shouldn't you be banging on about the racist homophobe, Jared O'Mara rather than trying to have a pseudo-clever dig every time a military background is nmentioned. It's so easy catching a Leuth on here. Did you see the coverage Leuth?
Comments
ner ner, ner ner ner
Encouraging but still a case of 'could do better'. Just waiting for Fiishy to decry the news as fiddled figures.
Overseas investments do seem to be preferred by my colleagues at the moment though as having better returns.
As much as I would like it to be blocked all that would happen is even more political wrangling and fallout. It is by no means the easy option. Until a second referendum overturns the first one then it will continue to dominate the agenda.
Not because the government whomever that might be at the time will feel the people have the right to speak. It will be because whatever the outcome the politicians can pass the buck and get off the hook finally and fulfilling the will of the people.
I’m hoping that common sense prevails at this point and Brexit is abandoned. The whole sorry episode will be the biggest exercise in stupidity ever undertaken.
Politicians are not known for doing bold.
Semantics perhaps but there is wriggle room for the politicos there.
It would also neatly allow May to avoid being labelled as the person who took Britain into a completely disastrous Brexit by at least claiming it was the people who had the final say. Since she is only concerned with shoring up her legacy, she must have at least drafted a plan for another referendum - she knows it is her only way out of this mess.
Then we all get pissed off as we’ve had to go vote five times in a year
Nor can I see how a vote in principle for or against the deal in Parliament would work, especially as there is no sign there will be a complete deal by 2019 anyway.
Sure Well...according to analysis of the vote, those whom I would consider make up the elite voted overwhelmingly for Remain, so in short hand the elite view is Remain.
Onviously not everybody who voted Remain is part of the elite, but they share the elite view.
Please define "the elite" then. You've met examples of "them", you tell us, so it should be quite illuminating
I'd also like to see a definition of the elite that doesn't in some way include Farage, Boris, Lawson, The Barclays, and Murdoch.
1. It takes two to tango (admittedly, in this case, 28);
2. The UK decision would almost certainly have to be taken in advance of any EU Parliament vote and EU27 national decisions. I don't think there's enough time.
The ex TA SAS man did well, I thought.
Gave straight answers and seemed competent.
Look forward to the usual suspects analysis.
If there is a divide then a reasonable conclusion, and somewhat more detailed than 'feeling threatened by them' would be the opposites? So the other side of the divide would be protectionism, nationalism, government by Luddites (not an obvious antonym to technocrat but the best I could do) and totalitarianism.
In that case I'm happy to be called an 'elite'.
*picture of bulldog*
*picture of SAS operative scaling cliff*
*deviantart cartoon of Davis at the prow of some fucking warship steaming away from the sunken wreck of the Bismarck, atop which Merkel angrily protests*
Did you see the coverage Leuth?