Because a European war would be so much fun compared with a world war? I reckon when most voters heard Cameron they did not think 'only a European War, I can handle that. But if it was a World War I would be really scared'. They either thought, 'more project fear',and voted Leave, or 'We're all gonna die in our beds' and voted Remain.
He just got tired of waiting for someone to post Cameron's alleged WW3 quote
Massive coincidence that he got tired of that at the very same time as wrongly accusing people of "talking shit" and being xenophobic.
Actually I just got tired of the same boring posters derailing the thread with the same boring pond life level trolling. You and the other boring obsessives on here do talk shit. That's not a wrongful accusation. Bore off.
If you're got something to say to me, PM me. No need to continue posting the exact same snide comments over and over again, no one here really cares.
The whole point is that nations trading in a bloc tend to find ways of enhancing their position and/or protecting against external interests so they don't fight each other. And That's why there was a rush to accommodate eastern European nations after the fall of the iron curtain. It was for commercial and security reasons. Profits, cheaper Labour, more markets plus invite them into NATO / bind them into the same vision. Ultimately there are only four big economies in the EU/eurozone being France, Germany and Spain with Benelux, Portugal, Greece and Ireland ffollowing their lead. The UK had a unique position as a large non Euro economy with similar interests to the Scandis and Poland.
The vote was to leave and it remains to be seen how that pans out. But the prospect of no deal and no access to our major export markets is provoking some interesting responses. Ostrich is one, whilst another is to take off with two fingers at the EU, hoping something turns up like we grow wings over the next 18 months.
And blaming the EU27 is another trend!
Bottom line is that what I was looking for has just turned up. The ABC1 views in the polls have been consistent dive the Brexit vote - 60:40 saying it was the wrong call. Whilst working class C2 DE was 63:37 saying it was right.
Today I've seen a link to polling stating two things: the public have lost confidence in the governments ability to deliver something sensible. And the working class lead for leave is now 56:44 representing a seven point swing towards remain.
I would put this down to a very poor government performance juxtaposed with the Labour tendency to talk about the real issues rather than challenging voters on the EU or making scapegoats. Just because people are C2DE doesn't make them stupid. Rather than patronising them or lying, Labour has spoken to education, health, housing and jobs as well as taxing high earners a tad more.
None of this means there should be a second referendum for the polls might be a blip? But six months more airtime for Johnson, Gove at al and that might be terminal for their stance? In other words the polls for working class votes will shift more, Labour will edge up and the politicians become emboldened as the pendulum swings.
It's just a theory I've held since Article 50 was triggered but we cannot know how fast things will move by March 2019.
Just to add that the use of stats showing a shift or potential downturn is not based on a wish to see damage to our country. Its simply a way of illustrating that these trends are visible to the politicicians and play out to the electorate in different ways.
In fact it is the threat of real damage which will hopefully lead to a change of heart and we stay in the EEA/SM/CU not least because of risks to the N.Ireland economy and peace process.
Hard Brexiteers are entitled to their view but they didn't win a mandate for whatever is in their heads. If we all call it a draw and move on to real issues we might then look back and have a laugh.
He just got tired of waiting for someone to post Cameron's alleged WW3 quote
Massive coincidence that he got tired of that at the very same time as wrongly accusing people of "talking shit" and being xenophobic.
Actually I just got tired of the same boring posters derailing the thread with the same boring pond life level trolling. You and the other boring obsessives on here do talk shit. That's not a wrongful accusation. Bore off.
If you're got something to say to me, PM me. No need to continue posting the exact same snide comments over and over again, no one here really cares.
you cant back up your claims so you aren't going to talk about it, poor show Fish.
He just got tired of waiting for someone to post Cameron's alleged WW3 quote
Massive coincidence that he got tired of that at the very same time as wrongly accusing people of "talking shit" and being xenophobic.
Actually I just got tired of the same boring posters derailing the thread with the same boring pond life level trolling. You and the other boring obsessives on here do talk shit. That's not a wrongful accusation. Bore off.
If you're got something to say to me, PM me. No need to continue posting the exact same snide comments over and over again, no one here really cares.
you cant back up your claims so you aren't going to talk about it, poor show Fish.
I gave you examples. You refused to acknowledge them. That's your problem, not mine. As I said to ibboring, PM me if you have an issue, no one really cares about your problems.
He just got tired of waiting for someone to post Cameron's alleged WW3 quote
Massive coincidence that he got tired of that at the very same time as wrongly accusing people of "talking shit" and being xenophobic.
Actually I just got tired of the same boring posters derailing the thread with the same boring pond life level trolling. You and the other boring obsessives on here do talk shit. That's not a wrongful accusation. Bore off.
If you're got something to say to me, PM me. No need to continue posting the exact same snide comments over and over again, no one here really cares.
you cant back up your claims so you aren't going to talk about it, poor show Fish.
I gave you examples. You refused to acknowledge them. That's your problem, not mine. As I said to ibboring, PM me if you have an issue, no one really cares about your problems.
wtf are you on you nutter?
you never gave examples of "the dozen or so people on this website who view Poles as job-stealing criminals" so stop pretending you did.
He just got tired of waiting for someone to post Cameron's alleged WW3 quote
Massive coincidence that he got tired of that at the very same time as wrongly accusing people of "talking shit" and being xenophobic.
Actually I just got tired of the same boring posters derailing the thread with the same boring pond life level trolling. You and the other boring obsessives on here do talk shit. That's not a wrongful accusation. Bore off.
If you're got something to say to me, PM me. No need to continue posting the exact same snide comments over and over again, no one here really cares.
He just got tired of waiting for someone to post Cameron's alleged WW3 quote
Massive coincidence that he got tired of that at the very same time as wrongly accusing people of "talking shit" and being xenophobic.
Actually I just got tired of the same boring posters derailing the thread with the same boring pond life level trolling. You and the other boring obsessives on here do talk shit. That's not a wrongful accusation. Bore off.
If you're got something to say to me, PM me. No need to continue posting the exact same snide comments over and over again, no one here really cares.
you cant back up your claims so you aren't going to talk about it, poor show Fish.
I gave you examples. You refused to acknowledge them. That's your problem, not mine. As I said to ibboring, PM me if you have an issue, no one really cares about your problems.
wtf are you on you nutter?
you never gave examples of "the dozen or so people on this website who view Poles as job-stealing criminals" so stop pretending you did.
it's fine, we'll leave it there.
I gave examples of where to find it. The last Brexit was deleted and a member banned because of similarly themed comments, albeit much worse. That's all that needs to be said. You're pretending no one has ever linked Poles/Eastern Europeans to job losses or crime rates in a derogratory manner. I can assure you, as can several other posters, such comments have been made, even if we didn't have the foresight to record who said what and when exactly just in case some bored obsessive demanded hard evidence.
He just got tired of waiting for someone to post Cameron's alleged WW3 quote
Massive coincidence that he got tired of that at the very same time as wrongly accusing people of "talking shit" and being xenophobic.
Actually I just got tired of the same boring posters derailing the thread with the same boring pond life level trolling. You and the other boring obsessives on here do talk shit. That's not a wrongful accusation. Bore off.
If you're got something to say to me, PM me. No need to continue posting the exact same snide comments over and over again, no one here really cares.
you cant back up your claims so you aren't going to talk about it, poor show Fish.
I gave you examples. You refused to acknowledge them. That's your problem, not mine. As I said to ibboring, PM me if you have an issue, no one really cares about your problems.
wtf are you on you nutter?
you never gave examples of "the dozen or so people on this website who view Poles as job-stealing criminals" so stop pretending you did.
it's fine, we'll leave it there.
I gave examples of where to find it. The last Brexit was deleted and a member banned because of similarly themed comments, albeit much worse. That's all that needs to be said. You're pretending no one has ever linked Poles/Eastern Europeans to job losses or crime rates in a derogratory manner. I can assure you, as can several other posters, such comments have been made, even if we didn't have the foresight to record who said what and when exactly just in case some bored obsessive demanded hard evidence.
Because a European war would be so much fun compared with a world war? I reckon when most voters heard Cameron they did not think 'only a European War, I can handle that. But if it was a World War I would be really scared'. They either thought, 'more project fear',and voted Leave, or 'We're all gonna die in our beds' and voted Remain.
Utter drivel. Remainers like me knew exactly what he meant. And I have explained it, multiple times. It is interesting to look at the headlines above those articles, and indeed the meta-data used in the links to the media articles. They grossly and mendaciously mislead the reader as to the actual content.
Cameron's remarks were well balanced and well calibrated. His mistake, indeed his mistake in calling a referendum, was not to notice that the Leave hysterists had finally captured the media narrative and there was absolutely no chance of a mature, considered response.
I bet there are people on here that hope the brexit debate and vote amounts to the right answer for the wrong reasons. Maybe we will end up better off in time (I desperately hope so) but it won't be due to the actions of this turdulous government. That letter to universities was as chilling as it comes, straight out of the Khmer Rouge handbook.
I am conflicted. I accept the result. Don't want another vote. But hope brexit goes away somehow. The only position I find I can take is to challenge leavers to take responsibility, know what they're doing, and make it happen and take the blame (or credit!) for what follows. I am not prepared to help in any way as I don't see it as a doable job. I will await the benefits but expect to be long gone before anything good comes of this.
I am conflicted. I accept the result. Don't want another vote. But hope brexit goes away somehow. The only position I find I can take is to challenge leavers to take responsibility, know what they're doing, and make it happen and take the blame (or credit!) for what follows. I am not prepared to help in any way as I don't see it as a doable job. I will await the benefits but expect to be long gone before anything good comes of this.
Hi @seth plum not sure if you saw my post the other day but there is something you can do for we live in a Parliamentary democracy and Junker has again spelt out three possible outcomes: no deal, a good deal, or abort the process.
So you and any other voter can engage with your MP or your local party (of whatever colour) and find out what they are doing and where they think the process is going next year.
End of the day it was an advisory referendum for Parliament to take on board. Financial Services businesses are pushing for clarity and at the same time preparing contingency plans. At some point around March, UCAS will release student numbers for next September - they are already down 7% for EU applicants this year despite a 13% sterling devaluation.
One perpective which Keir Starmer advocated is that the balance of power is held by 30 Tory MPs who are pro EEA/CU/SM. People who wish to stay in the Customs Union and live in such a constituency have the potential to influence.
I am conflicted. I accept the result. Don't want another vote. But hope brexit goes away somehow. The only position I find I can take is to challenge leavers to take responsibility, know what they're doing, and make it happen and take the blame (or credit!) for what follows. I am not prepared to help in any way as I don't see it as a doable job. I will await the benefits but expect to be long gone before anything good comes of this.
So you and any other voter can engage with your MP or your local party (of whatever colour) and find out what they are doing and where they think the process is going next year.
Leave or remain, this is what everyone should do.
Ultimately, as I have stated from day one, I am sure there is another step to come ... whether it is put forward as a second referendum or hidden under a different name remains to be seen.
Because a European war would be so much fun compared with a world war? I reckon when most voters heard Cameron they did not think 'only a European War, I can handle that. But if it was a World War I would be really scared'. They either thought, 'more project fear',and voted Leave, or 'We're all gonna die in our beds' and voted Remain.
Utter drivel. Remainers like me knew exactly what he meant. And I have explained it, multiple times. It is interesting to look at the headlines above those articles, and indeed the meta-data used in the links to the media articles. They grossly and mendaciously mislead the reader as to the actual content.
Cameron's remarks were well balanced and well calibrated. His mistake, indeed his mistake in calling a referendum, was not to notice that the Leave hysterists had finally captured the media narrative and there was absolutely no chance of a mature, considered response.
I know you live abroad, but the idea that most mass media-tv, radio and press, were pro Brexit in the run-up to the referendum is plain absurd.
There are many who insist on believing that populism is generated by a few right wingers and some press barons. The reality is that there is a deep well of disenchantment which right wingers try to manipulate. If we keep thinking the tail is wagging the dog we will never understand either where populism comes from or how to combat it.
And unfortunately in the process it comes across as despising ordinary people who voted for Brexit and painting them as stupid and gullible. Is the idea, do you think, that if you insult people for long enought they will change their minds?
Comments
They either thought, 'more project fear',and voted Leave, or 'We're all gonna die in our beds' and voted Remain.
If you're got something to say to me, PM me. No need to continue posting the exact same snide comments over and over again, no one here really cares.
I think this thread probably got derailed 30 pages ago.
It was for commercial and security reasons. Profits, cheaper Labour, more markets plus invite them into NATO / bind them into the same vision.
Ultimately there are only four big economies in the EU/eurozone being France, Germany and Spain with Benelux, Portugal, Greece and Ireland ffollowing their lead.
The UK had a unique position as a large non Euro economy with similar interests to the Scandis and Poland.
The vote was to leave and it remains to be seen how that pans out. But the prospect of no deal and no access to our major export markets is provoking some interesting responses. Ostrich is one, whilst another is to take off with two fingers at the EU, hoping something turns up like we grow wings over the next 18 months.
And blaming the EU27 is another trend!
Bottom line is that what I was looking for has just turned up. The ABC1 views in the polls have been consistent dive the Brexit vote - 60:40 saying it was the wrong call. Whilst working class C2 DE was 63:37 saying it was right.
Today I've seen a link to polling stating two things: the public have lost confidence in the governments ability to deliver something sensible. And the working class lead for leave is now 56:44 representing a seven point swing towards remain.
I would put this down to a very poor government performance juxtaposed with the Labour tendency to talk about the real issues rather than challenging voters on the EU or making scapegoats.
Just because people are C2DE doesn't make them stupid. Rather than patronising them or lying, Labour has spoken to education, health, housing and jobs as well as taxing high earners a tad more.
None of this means there should be a second referendum for the polls might be a blip? But six months more airtime for Johnson, Gove at al and that might be terminal for their stance? In other words the polls for working class votes will shift more, Labour will edge up and the politicians become emboldened as the pendulum swings.
It's just a theory I've held since Article 50 was triggered but we cannot know how fast things will move by March 2019.
Just to add that the use of stats showing a shift or potential downturn is not based on a wish to see damage to our country. Its simply a way of illustrating that these trends are visible to the politicicians and play out to the electorate in different ways.
In fact it is the threat of real damage which will hopefully lead to a change of heart and we stay in the EEA/SM/CU not least because of risks to the N.Ireland economy and peace process.
Hard Brexiteers are entitled to their view but they didn't win a mandate for whatever is in their heads. If we all call it a draw and move on to real issues we might then look back and have a laugh.
(sorry, couldn't resist)
you never gave examples of "the dozen or so people on this website who view Poles as job-stealing criminals" so stop pretending you did.
it's fine, we'll leave it there.
We certainly live in interesting times.
Utter drivel. Remainers like me knew exactly what he meant. And I have explained it, multiple times. It is interesting to look at the headlines above those articles, and indeed the meta-data used in the links to the media articles. They grossly and mendaciously mislead the reader as to the actual content.
Cameron's remarks were well balanced and well calibrated. His mistake, indeed his mistake in calling a referendum, was not to notice that the Leave hysterists had finally captured the media narrative and there was absolutely no chance of a mature, considered response.
The only position I find I can take is to challenge leavers to take responsibility, know what they're doing, and make it happen and take the blame (or credit!) for what follows.
I am not prepared to help in any way as I don't see it as a doable job. I will await the benefits but expect to be long gone before anything good comes of this.
bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41735839
Not that Andrea Leadsom can understand why it might come across all a bit well...Orwellian.
Anyone up for a spot of book burning?
https://google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/10/24/eu-banks-spared-ringfencing-rules-imposed-british-lenders/amp/
So you and any other voter can engage with your MP or your local party (of whatever colour) and find out what they are doing and where they think the process is going next year.
End of the day it was an advisory referendum for Parliament to take on board. Financial Services businesses are pushing for clarity and at the same time preparing contingency plans. At some point around March, UCAS will release student numbers for next September - they are already down 7% for EU applicants this year despite a 13% sterling devaluation.
One perpective which Keir Starmer advocated is that the balance of power is held by 30 Tory MPs who are pro EEA/CU/SM. People who wish to stay in the Customs Union and live in such a constituency have the potential to influence.
Take back control!
https://www.standard.co.uk/business/anthony-hilton-blunt-rolet-sets-out-his-brexit-survival-plan-a3666506.html
Ultimately, as I have stated from day one, I am sure there is another step to come ... whether it is put forward as a second referendum or hidden under a different name remains to be seen.
Looks like Fishy's wait goes on....
Because a European war would be so much fun compared with a world war? I reckon when most voters heard Cameron they did not think 'only a European War, I can handle that. But if it was a World War I would be really scared'.
They either thought, 'more project fear',and voted Leave, or 'We're all gonna die in our beds' and voted Remain.
Utter drivel. Remainers like me knew exactly what he meant. And I have explained it, multiple times. It is interesting to look at the headlines above those articles, and indeed the meta-data used in the links to the media articles. They grossly and mendaciously mislead the reader as to the actual content.
Cameron's remarks were well balanced and well calibrated. His mistake, indeed his mistake in calling a referendum, was not to notice that the Leave hysterists had finally captured the media narrative and there was absolutely no chance of a mature, considered response.
I know you live abroad, but the idea that most mass media-tv, radio and press, were pro Brexit in the run-up to the referendum is plain absurd.
There are many who insist on believing that populism is generated by a few right wingers and some press barons. The reality is that there is a deep well of disenchantment which right wingers try to manipulate. If we keep thinking the tail is wagging the dog we will never understand either where populism comes from or how to combat it.
And unfortunately in the process it comes across as despising ordinary people who voted for Brexit and painting them as stupid and gullible. Is the idea, do you think, that if you insult people for long enought they will change their minds?