Woman on QT now having a pop at mark carney and the BBC for weakening our stance on Brexit and not getting behind it. You couldn’t make it up. What a silly mare. If Brexit is a good idea and will be a success, then mark carney and the bbc’s stance is irrelevant
The problem is, if Brexit was such a good idea, at least one prominent person would have produced a single decent argument for this. But instead of actually arguing the merits of Brexit, they continue to moan than anyone talking down Brexit is the problem, and not the fact there was a single credible to invoke Article 50 in the first place.
Can you point me to the post where I said that about you? I think you are really working extra hard to take offence at any posts that include derogatory comments about Brexit voters. You are going to have a hard time over the coming 10 years.
As a Remain voter I only deal in facts. Opinion poll after opinion poll since the Referendum has shown that the least educated section of the electorate voted overwhelmingly for Brexit. That is a simple fact. Some people on here are saying we should stop pointing this fact out to the poor Brexit voters because they are getting upset about it. That is their, the people stating we should stop pointing it out, prerogative. I am with Michael Bloomberg on this. The utter stupidity and dumbness of the Brexit vote must never be brushed under the carpet to save the blushes of the Brexit voters. It needs to be pointed out again and again and again. Over the coming decades it needs to be properly taught in schools so that future generations don't repeat our mistake. In 20 years the word Brexit will be synonymous with stupid and idiot.
Woman on QT now having a pop at mark carney and the BBC for weakening our stance on Brexit and not getting behind it. You couldn’t make it up. What a silly mare. If Brexit is a good idea and will be a success, then mark carney and the bbc’s stance is irrelevant
The problem is, if Brexit was such a good idea, at least one prominent person would have produced a single decent argument for this. But instead of actually arguing the merits of Brexit, they continue to moan than anyone talking down Brexit is the problem, and not the fact there was a single credible to invoke Article 50 in the first place.
I couldn’t believe it. On what planet is Mark carney’s view or the bbc’s stance going to impact a deal??? Sure question their ‘independence’, but I agree that if you talk it down, you are not the reason it’s going to impact its success. If it’s the land of milk and honey Rees mogg thinks it will be, then who cares about the remoaners. Let them moan and come crawling back when we’re living in a utopian state in 2020
ONS population growth between 2015 and 2040 projected as
Uk 16% France 10% Germany 4% Italy - a small decline
That's my leave vote in a nutshell. Quite which party to vote for to provide an economy land housing and pensions to support that god only knows. I am genuinely worried for my kids future and for our beautiful green spaces and countryside.
This has been done to death. As far as population growth goes EU migration is the least of our concerns. If our growing population is your house flooding, worrying about the EU aspect of it is the equivalent of trying to fix your dripping tap.
Why are you so quick to dismiss another posters genuine concerns? His post is not about EU migration but about population growth over the next 25 years and real worries for his childrens future quality of life.
ONS population growth between 2015 and 2040 projected as
Uk 16% France 10% Germany 4% Italy - a small decline
That's my leave vote in a nutshell. Quite which party to vote for to provide an economy land housing and pensions to support that god only knows. I am genuinely worried for my kids future and for our beautiful green spaces and countryside.
This has been done to death. As far as population growth goes EU migration is the least of our concerns. If our growing population is your house flooding, worrying about the EU aspect of it is the equivalent of trying to fix your dripping tap.
Why are you so quick to dismiss another posters genuine concerns? His post is not about EU migration but about population growth over the next 25 years and real worries for his childrens future quality of life.
Because he said he voted leave because of population growth. How else does the EU affect population growth if not migration? Is Juncker poking holes in all our jonnies?
Can you point me to the post where I said that about you? I think you are really working extra hard to take offence at any posts that include derogatory comments about Brexit voters. You are going to have a hard time over the coming 10 years.
As a Remain voter I only deal in facts. Opinion poll after opinion poll since the Referendum has shown that the least educated section of the electorate voted overwhelmingly for Brexit. That is a simple fact. Some people on here are saying we should stop pointing this fact out to the poor Brexit voters because they are getting upset about it. That is their, the people stating we should stop pointing it out, prerogative. I am with Michael Bloomberg on this. The utter stupidity and dumbness of the Brexit vote must never be brushed under the carpet to save the blushes of the Brexit voters. It needs to be pointed out again and again and again. Over the coming decades it needs to be properly taught in schools so that future generations don't repeat our mistake. In 20 years the word Brexit will be synonymous with stupid and idiot.
You stated that Brexit voters are even more stupid and ill educated than anyone realised.
My post was very obviously tongue in cheek. I probably should have added a ‘wink’ to help you.
This has been done to death. As far as population growth goes EU migration is the least of our concerns. If our growing population is your house flooding, worrying about the EU aspect of it is the equivalent of trying to fix your dripping tap.
Why are you so quick to dismiss another posters genuine concerns? His post is not about EU migration but about population growth over the next 25 years and real worries for his childrens future quality of life.
Because he said he voted leave because of population growth. How else does the EU affect population growth if not migration? Is Juncker poking holes in all our jonnies?
I don't think it's been done to death at all. It's a serious concern even if we had zero immigration.
Before and since the referendum I have been lucky enough to spend time in Austria Finland and Sweden and they are extremely protective of their open countryside. I was also discussing the situation with German friends who are extremely relaxed about immigration because they do not have the same population growth as the forecasts show.
It's different here. I am not against immigrants not least because my son has a Czech girlfriend who works in the care sector and we are very fortunate to have her here. She works extremely hard and long hours and never misses a shift.
It's typical of you @Fiiish to just casually dismiss my concerns in your usual derogative manner. Doesn't much crest a good debate. What can we do to house and feed future generations whilst protecting our relatively small environment? I am not convinced voting green will do it?
ONS population growth between 2015 and 2040 projected as
Uk 16% France 10% Germany 4% Italy - a small decline
That's my leave vote in a nutshell. Quite which party to vote for to provide an economy land housing and pensions to support that god only knows. I am genuinely worried for my kids future and for our beautiful green spaces and countryside.
Oh the delicious irony of someone worried about how population growth will impact their kids. One rule for you and a different one for everyone else?
ONS population growth between 2015 and 2040 projected as
Uk 16% France 10% Germany 4% Italy - a small decline
That's my leave vote in a nutshell. Quite which party to vote for to provide an economy land housing and pensions to support that god only knows. I am genuinely worried for my kids future and for our beautiful green spaces and countryside.
Oh the delicious irony of someone worried about how population growth will impact their kids. One rule for you and a different one for everyone else?
It's a fair point. I will take one out and shoot them. My parents had 4 kids. I have 3 by my first marriage. The trend is improving.
Can you point me to the post where I said that about you? I think you are really working extra hard to take offence at any posts that include derogatory comments about Brexit voters. You are going to have a hard time over the coming 10 years.
As a Remain voter I only deal in facts. Opinion poll after opinion poll since the Referendum has shown that the least educated section of the electorate voted overwhelmingly for Brexit. That is a simple fact. Some people on here are saying we should stop pointing this fact out to the poor Brexit voters because they are getting upset about it. That is their, the people stating we should stop pointing it out, prerogative. I am with Michael Bloomberg on this. The utter stupidity and dumbness of the Brexit vote must never be brushed under the carpet to save the blushes of the Brexit voters. It needs to be pointed out again and again and again. Over the coming decades it needs to be properly taught in schools so that future generations don't repeat our mistake. In 20 years the word Brexit will be synonymous with stupid and idiot.
You stated that Brexit voters are even more stupid and ill educated than anyone realised.
My post was very obviously tongue in cheek. I probably should have added a ‘wink’ to help you.
Chill out, it was meant to be humorous.
Hi mate. I think that because, like me, @Red_in_SE8 carefully studies robust data to inform his views, he knows perfectly well that the Brexit vote does not come exclusively from the least educated groups. However it is very interesting that the Brexit vote is over-weight in the same social demographic groups as those who voted for populist/xenophobic parties in other parts of Europe, and for Trump. The Czech election was the latest example. In most of those cases, leaving the EU was not on the election agenda (patently in the US case). Indeed a smiley from you would have helped. And an indication that you have had the time to read that thread, because I would be interested in your take.
The very reason why I tried to attract you and Dippenhall to it is because broadly your Brexit stance is, as I understand it, underpinned by a belief that our international trade position can actually improve after Brexit, and this outweighs any possible negative. Neither of you have placed issues around immigration at the centre of your arguments, which I greatly respect.
I do now feel that as the trade issues have been examined more carefully, (and I started from a less informed base than you two on this issue) your confidence looks increasingly misplaced. That is why I'd like to know how you would counter the author's arguments.
ONS population growth between 2015 and 2040 projected as
Uk 16% France 10% Germany 4% Italy - a small decline
That's my leave vote in a nutshell. Quite which party to vote for to provide an economy land housing and pensions to support that god only knows. I am genuinely worried for my kids future and for our beautiful green spaces and countryside.
Oh the delicious irony of someone worried about how population growth will impact their kids. One rule for you and a different one for everyone else?
What are you saying we should do to maintain a stable population? What is different between the situation in the uk and Germany as shown by those forecasts?
ONS population growth between 2015 and 2040 projected as
Uk 16% France 10% Germany 4% Italy - a small decline
That's my leave vote in a nutshell. Quite which party to vote for to provide an economy land housing and pensions to support that god only knows. I am genuinely worried for my kids future and for our beautiful green spaces and countryside.
Oh the delicious irony of someone worried about how population growth will impact their kids. One rule for you and a different one for everyone else?
What are you saying we should do to maintain a stable population? What is different between the situation in the uk and Germany as shown by those forecasts?
Well Italy France and Germany are all in the EU so if you consider their population growth projections more palatable then what does your Leave vote have to do with the growing population?
Can you point me to the post where I said that about you? I think you are really working extra hard to take offence at any posts that include derogatory comments about Brexit voters. You are going to have a hard time over the coming 10 years.
As a Remain voter I only deal in facts. Opinion poll after opinion poll since the Referendum has shown that the least educated section of the electorate voted overwhelmingly for Brexit. That is a simple fact. Some people on here are saying we should stop pointing this fact out to the poor Brexit voters because they are getting upset about it. That is their, the people stating we should stop pointing it out, prerogative. I am with Michael Bloomberg on this. The utter stupidity and dumbness of the Brexit vote must never be brushed under the carpet to save the blushes of the Brexit voters. It needs to be pointed out again and again and again. Over the coming decades it needs to be properly taught in schools so that future generations don't repeat our mistake. In 20 years the word Brexit will be synonymous with stupid and idiot.
You stated that Brexit voters are even more stupid and ill educated than anyone realised.
My post was very obviously tongue in cheek. I probably should have added a ‘wink’ to help you.
Chill out, it was meant to be humorous.
Hi mate. I think that because, like me, @Red_in_SE8 carefully studies robust data to inform his views, he knows perfectly well that the Brexit vote does not come exclusively from the least educated groups. However it is very interesting that the Brexit vote is over-weight in the same social demographic groups as those who voted for populist/xenophobic parties in other parts of Europe, and for Trump. The Czech election was the latest example. In most of those cases, leaving the EU was not on the election agenda (patently in the US case). Indeed a smiley from you would have helped. And an indication that you have had the time to read that thread, because I would be interested in your take.
The very reason why I tried to attract you and Dippenhall to it is because broadly your Brexit stance is, as I understand it, underpinned by a belief that our international trade position can actually improve after Brexit, and this outweighs any possible negative. Neither of you have placed issues around immigration at the centre of your arguments, which I greatly respect.
I do now feel that as the trade issues have been examined more carefully, (and I started from a less informed base than you two on this issue) your confidence looks increasingly misplaced. That is why I'd like to know how you would counter the author's arguments.
Ooops I thought it was just a jpg, hadn’t realised there was a link behind it.
So a Remainer says there is a "no deal argument". There is no argument in favour of no deal, but why let facts get in the way of Brexit bashing.
There is a reality that if the EU are prepared to sacrifice the economic benefits of a mutually beneficial deal, in favour of making an example of the UK to deter any further defections, no deal could be the outcome.
Apparently, pointing out to those Remainers who would enter negotiations asking for the worst deal available, that a no deal is a possibility, and there must be a contingency plan, is the same as saying we favour a "no deal". What do we say here - Beyond Parody?
Only Remainers seem to favour the idiotic position that you enter a negotiation telling the other side we must strike a deal with you, just tell us how much you want, and if we are nice to you will you offer something better than the worst you can do? As JRM said last night, it is not a negotiation, it is an argument.
A no deal could also arise if Parliament rejects the deal negotiated, and the EU refuse to budge. That is the desired outcome for those intent on derailing Brexit from the outset, weakening the position of the negotiators to make a bad deal more likely, under the pretence is that it is necessary to prove Parliament has supreme sovereignty, as if anyone is questioning it. The posture of faux indignation when it is suggested such action is not in the interests of the UK and they are effectively assisting the EU's cause to offer the worst deal, is what might be expected from the liberal elite.
It's typical of you @Fiiish to just casually dismiss my concerns in your usual derogative manner. Doesn't much crest a good debate. What can we do to house and feed future generations whilst protecting our relatively small environment? I am not convinced voting green will do it?
Hi @Imissthepeanutman . I respect your concerns, even though I don't live in the UK permanently any more (and I will come back to that). I think it was @Addickted and @Covered End who forced me to confront that fact of life, way before the actual vote, and I was grateful for their robust arguments that helped me to get there. In short, when I started my new life in CZ, the week after our return to the Valley, the UK population was 54m. It is now 65m, and as you say, it is a very small place. I understand that pressure on the NHS, schools, transport, and the care system, can be traced to this factor.
I would be very interested to know if your son's girlfriend has said anything about the referendum and the impact on her, and her plans. I too have a Czech friend who has moved to the UK to work in the care sector. She is, it is fair to say, worried, and will probably return soon. There are only 45,000 Czechs in the UK according to official figures. Like the Poles they are aware that the economy is roaring and we have a labour shortage here. The wage gap in CZ remains large, but that will close otherwise companies and institutions cannot function.If you feel unwanted in a country, and know that back home you will have a choice of jobs, what would you do? (Yesterday the BBC R4 Today went to Lodz in Poland, and captured exactly what I have mentioned here). The whole idea of the EU enlargement, and the funds provided to those countries, was that we will help these countries from their Communist past recover, their people will have better lives, and they will be happy to live there. It has always been the expectation that many immigrants from these countries will only stay a few years. This can now be seen. The trouble is that Brexit is causing them to leave with a bad feeling about the UK. That will have consequences in the future. @Fiiish argues robustly because we tried to argue this point ("want to curb immigration? the policy levers are already in place") more calmly, and we were drowned in a cacophony of Farage inspired xenophobia. (not from you personally, as you have admirably explained).
Thye won't all leave. My sister in Eltham has new neighbours, a young Polish family. The house they have bought must be at the £550k level and they have taken on a mortgage a year after the vote. He works in IT, but also, being Polish, does his own renovation of the house, in what spare time he has. Typical Polish work ethic. I imagine that he contributes far more in taxes and NI contributions than my sister (who understands and appreciates that perfectly well). Do we want to lose immigrants like that?
ONS population growth between 2015 and 2040 projected as
Uk 16% France 10% Germany 4% Italy - a small decline
That's my leave vote in a nutshell. Quite which party to vote for to provide an economy land housing and pensions to support that god only knows. I am genuinely worried for my kids future and for our beautiful green spaces and countryside.
Oh the delicious irony of someone worried about how population growth will impact their kids. One rule for you and a different one for everyone else?
What are you saying we should do to maintain a stable population? What is different between the situation in the uk and Germany as shown by those forecasts?
Well Italy France and Germany are all in the EU so if you consider their population growth projections more palatable then what does your Leave vote have to do with the growing population?
Did you not see the variations between the 4 countries in the ons stats?
The uk is a considerably smaller country than France and Germany in terms of land suitable for housing and I want to protect our countryside and way of life in the same way as the Germans French swedes Austrians and Finnish people that I have met and discussed this with on my travels.
I think our country simply has a bigger problem with this than others and consequently needs to take more action to deal with it. For me the Eu with Cameron weren't going to entertain any discussion on this.
When it came to the referendum vote my biggest problem with vote leave was that I did not want to be associated with farage gove and Johnson and mulled over my vote for several weeks.
So a Remainer says there is a "no deal argument". There is no argument in favour of no deal, but why let facts get in the way of Brexit bashing.
There is a reality that if the EU are prepared to sacrifice the economic benefits of a mutually beneficial deal, in favour of making an example of the UK to deter any further defections, no deal could be the outcome.
Apparently, pointing out to those Remainers who would enter negotiations asking for the worst deal available, that a no deal is a possibility, and there must be a contingency plan, is the same as saying we favour a "no deal". What do we say here - Beyond Parody?
Only Remainers seem to favour the idiotic position that you enter a negotiation telling the other side we must strike a deal with you, just tell us how much you want, and if we are nice to you will you offer something better than the worst you can do? As JRM said last night, it is not a negotiation, it is an argument.
A no deal could also arise if Parliament rejects the deal negotiated, and the EU refuse to budge. That is the desired outcome for those intent on derailing Brexit from the outset, weakening the position of the negotiators to make a bad deal more likely, under the pretence is that it is necessary to prove Parliament has supreme sovereignty, as if anyone is questioning it. The posture of faux indignation when it is suggested such action is not in the interests of the UK and they are effectively assisting the EU's cause to offer the worst deal, is what might be expected from the liberal elite.
As usual the arguments of those characters (the politicians more so than Halligan) rely on the public's highly limited understanding of world trade mechanisms. They are peddling simplistic populist slogans in the belief that most people cannot get their heads around facts like those the thread author presents. It is a tactic that has worked admirably for them up to now of course.
You however have an admirable grip on such trade mechanisms. Please tell us what kind of trade deal you would favour with the EU at this time. Would it require single market access, and if so will we stick to the Four Freedoms as part of your deal? If we are going to leave the single market, you run up against the issues the thread author highlights. What is your response to them?
ONS population growth between 2015 and 2040 projected as
Uk 16% France 10% Germany 4% Italy - a small decline
That's my leave vote in a nutshell. Quite which party to vote for to provide an economy land housing and pensions to support that god only knows. I am genuinely worried for my kids future and for our beautiful green spaces and countryside.
Oh the delicious irony of someone worried about how population growth will impact their kids. One rule for you and a different one for everyone else?
What are you saying we should do to maintain a stable population? What is different between the situation in the uk and Germany as shown by those forecasts?
Well Italy France and Germany are all in the EU so if you consider their population growth projections more palatable then what does your Leave vote have to do with the growing population?
Did you not see the variations between the 4 countries in the ons stats?
The uk is a considerably smaller country than France and Germany in terms of land suitable for housing and I want to protect our countryside and way of life in the same way as the Germans French swedes Austrians and Finnish people that I have met and discussed this with on my travels.
I think our country simply has a bigger problem with this than others and consequently needs to take more action to deal with it. For me the Eu with Cameron weren't going to entertain any discussion on this.
When it came to the referendum vote my biggest problem with vote leave was that I did not want to be associated with farage gove and Johnson and mulled over my vote for several weeks.
I also want to protect our countryside.
Cutting ties with an organisation with actual standards for ethical farming and subsidies for farmers who ensure 'wild' patches in their fields strikes me as a poor way to do this.
British industrial farming is destroying our natural ecosystems. Do you think the Tories have any interest in halting that march, when there's a quick buck to be made?
We house our population inefficiently (so many empty properties) and we don't educate children adequately about family planning, nor do we allow them access to free contraception (as we really, really should). Add this to an ageing population and the burden on the system is clear. Virtually none of it cones from the EU, but it's a convenient scapegoat for those powerful figures with media platforms who could do without people thinking for themselves.
Ask yourself this. How will Brexit provide a CONCRETE way in which population growth can be halted?
So a Remainer says there is a "no deal argument". There is no argument in favour of no deal, but why let facts get in the way of Brexit bashing.
There is a reality that if the EU are prepared to sacrifice the economic benefits of a mutually beneficial deal, in favour of making an example of the UK to deter any further defections, no deal could be the outcome.
Apparently, pointing out to those Remainers who would enter negotiations asking for the worst deal available, that a no deal is a possibility, and there must be a contingency plan, is the same as saying we favour a "no deal". What do we say here - Beyond Parody?
Only Remainers seem to favour the idiotic position that you enter a negotiation telling the other side we must strike a deal with you, just tell us how much you want, and if we are nice to you will you offer something better than the worst you can do? As JRM said last night, it is not a negotiation, it is an argument.
A no deal could also arise if Parliament rejects the deal negotiated, and the EU refuse to budge. That is the desired outcome for those intent on derailing Brexit from the outset, weakening the position of the negotiators to make a bad deal more likely, under the pretence is that it is necessary to prove Parliament has supreme sovereignty, as if anyone is questioning it. The posture of faux indignation when it is suggested such action is not in the interests of the UK and they are effectively assisting the EU's cause to offer the worst deal, is what might be expected from the liberal elite.
Sorry, can you just clear up, you are saying that no one is contemplating a no deal scenario on the leave side, and that if it happens will all be the fault of the EU? No other circumstances?
There have been Brexit supporters on this very thread (and others) that have advocated no deal. And no, i'm not going back to find the individual statements.
The rest of the post is just your opinion of a remainers' motivation - about as valid as lumping all leavers in together.
Then again, it's ok because you invalidated the entire post by sticking liberal elite at the bottom. The worst thing about this 'populist wave' is those who identify with it have misappropriated liberalism into a derogatory term. The people who achieved so much under its banner should be rightfully turning in their graves at the ungrateful tarnishing of their memories.
Being out of the EU is a bad deal whatever the financial details, it is a bad deal because the UK is out, end of story.
This is one reason why showing a hand in discussions is meaningless, the divorce itself is the issue, not who gets to keep the Joan Armatrading records.
In terms of immigration and numbers, it is a problem for the planet as a whole isn't it?
To simply focus on population numbers in the UK won't make the worldwide issues go away, it is a bit like saying global warming is a problem, but the UK can have a shaft of clean fresh air on this country alone, and the crap air will linger over everywhere else.
I still believe there will be no deal and negotiations are a waste of time. As an ardent remainer and remoaner I think time would have been saved if the UK had said 'fuck you' to the rest of the EU the day after the vote, and by now the UK could be living with the consequences. Hundreds of thousands of UK nationals could have been repatriated by now, and hundreds of thousands of EU nationals could have been forcibly removed, and the UK could have signed a trade deal with Borneo.
Sadly i had a Post It out, totting up my score from my desk in shoreditch - while wearing a checked shirt! Even without question 8 i was in danger of heading off the charts.
He works in IT, but also, being Polish, does his own renovation of the house, in what spare time he has. Typical Polish work ethic. I imagine that he contributes far more in taxes and NI contributions than my sister (who understands and appreciates that perfectly well). Do we want to lose immigrants like that?
Why is it a given that we would lose immigrants like that? Countries all around the world accept immigration based on various types of visas, I have 5 years of work visa's in my passport, I'm not sure it would be any different for the UK.
The main difference being we also offer the option of permanent residence, something I will never be able to obtain here.
ONS population growth between 2015 and 2040 projected as
Uk 16% France 10% Germany 4% Italy - a small decline
That's my leave vote in a nutshell. Quite which party to vote for to provide an economy land housing and pensions to support that god only knows. I am genuinely worried for my kids future and for our beautiful green spaces and countryside.
Oh the delicious irony of someone worried about how population growth will impact their kids. One rule for you and a different one for everyone else?
What are you saying we should do to maintain a stable population? What is different between the situation in the uk and Germany as shown by those forecasts?
Well Italy France and Germany are all in the EU so if you consider their population growth projections more palatable then what does your Leave vote have to do with the growing population?
Did you not see the variations between the 4 countries in the ons stats?
The uk is a considerably smaller country than France and Germany in terms of land suitable for housing and I want to protect our countryside and way of life in the same way as the Germans French swedes Austrians and Finnish people that I have met and discussed this with on my travels.
I think our country simply has a bigger problem with this than others and consequently needs to take more action to deal with it. For me the Eu with Cameron weren't going to entertain any discussion on this.
When it came to the referendum vote my biggest problem with vote leave was that I did not want to be associated with farage gove and Johnson and mulled over my vote for several weeks.
nor do we allow them access to free contraception
When did this become the case? If that's true it's shocking. Although I'm sure when I lived in the UK I remember going to the family planning clinic and getting free condom, I'm also sure my ex never paid for the pill, even when she asked her GP for a years worth as we moved to China.
Comments
As a Remain voter I only deal in facts. Opinion poll after opinion poll since the Referendum has shown that the least educated section of the electorate voted overwhelmingly for Brexit. That is a simple fact. Some people on here are saying we should stop pointing this fact out to the poor Brexit voters because they are getting upset about it. That is their, the people stating we should stop pointing it out, prerogative. I am with Michael Bloomberg on this. The utter stupidity and dumbness of the Brexit vote must never be brushed under the carpet to save the blushes of the Brexit voters. It needs to be pointed out again and again and again. Over the coming decades it needs to be properly taught in schools so that future generations don't repeat our mistake. In 20 years the word Brexit will be synonymous with stupid and idiot.
My post was very obviously tongue in cheek. I probably should have added a ‘wink’ to help you.
Chill out, it was meant to be humorous.
This has been done to death. As far as population growth goes EU migration is the least of our concerns. If our growing population is your house flooding, worrying about the EU aspect of it is the equivalent of trying to fix your dripping tap.
Why are you so quick to dismiss another posters genuine concerns? His post is not about EU migration but about population growth over the next 25 years and real worries for his childrens future quality of life.
Because he said he voted leave because of population growth. How else does the EU affect population growth if not migration? Is Juncker poking holes in all our jonnies?
I don't think it's been done to death at all. It's a serious concern even if we had zero immigration.
Before and since the referendum I have been lucky enough to spend time in Austria Finland and Sweden and they are extremely protective of their open countryside. I was also discussing the situation with German friends who are extremely relaxed about immigration because they do not have the same population growth as the forecasts show.
It's different here. I am not against immigrants not least because my son has a Czech girlfriend who works in the care sector and we are very fortunate to have her here. She works extremely hard and long hours and never misses a shift.
It's typical of you @Fiiish to just casually dismiss my concerns in your usual derogative manner. Doesn't much crest a good debate. What can we do to house and feed future generations whilst protecting our relatively small environment? I am not convinced voting green will do it?
The very reason why I tried to attract you and Dippenhall to it is because broadly your Brexit stance is, as I understand it, underpinned by a belief that our international trade position can actually improve after Brexit, and this outweighs any possible negative. Neither of you have placed issues around immigration at the centre of your arguments, which I greatly respect.
I do now feel that as the trade issues have been examined more carefully, (and I started from a less informed base than you two on this issue) your confidence looks increasingly misplaced. That is why I'd like to know how you would counter the author's arguments.
Ooops I thought it was just a jpg, hadn’t realised there was a link behind it.
Will try and check it out over the weekend.
There is a reality that if the EU are prepared to sacrifice the economic benefits of a mutually beneficial deal, in favour of making an example of the UK to deter any further defections, no deal could be the outcome.
Apparently, pointing out to those Remainers who would enter negotiations asking for the worst deal available, that a no deal is a possibility, and there must be a contingency plan, is the same as saying we favour a "no deal". What do we say here - Beyond Parody?
Only Remainers seem to favour the idiotic position that you enter a negotiation telling the other side we must strike a deal with you, just tell us how much you want, and if we are nice to you will you offer something better than the worst you can do? As JRM said last night, it is not a negotiation, it is an argument.
A no deal could also arise if Parliament rejects the deal negotiated, and the EU refuse to budge. That is the desired outcome for those intent on derailing Brexit from the outset, weakening the position of the negotiators to make a bad deal more likely, under the pretence is that it is necessary to prove Parliament has supreme sovereignty, as if anyone is questioning it. The posture of faux indignation when it is suggested such action is not in the interests of the UK and they are effectively assisting the EU's cause to offer the worst deal, is what might be expected from the liberal elite.
It's typical of you @Fiiish to just casually dismiss my concerns in your usual derogative manner. Doesn't much crest a good debate. What can we do to house and feed future generations whilst protecting our relatively small environment? I am not convinced voting green will do it?
Hi @Imissthepeanutman . I respect your concerns, even though I don't live in the UK permanently any more (and I will come back to that). I think it was @Addickted and @Covered End who forced me to confront that fact of life, way before the actual vote, and I was grateful for their robust arguments that helped me to get there. In short, when I started my new life in CZ, the week after our return to the Valley, the UK population was 54m. It is now 65m, and as you say, it is a very small place. I understand that pressure on the NHS, schools, transport, and the care system, can be traced to this factor.
I would be very interested to know if your son's girlfriend has said anything about the referendum and the impact on her, and her plans. I too have a Czech friend who has moved to the UK to work in the care sector. She is, it is fair to say, worried, and will probably return soon. There are only 45,000 Czechs in the UK according to official figures. Like the Poles they are aware that the economy is roaring and we have a labour shortage here. The wage gap in CZ remains large, but that will close otherwise companies and institutions cannot function.If you feel unwanted in a country, and know that back home you will have a choice of jobs, what would you do? (Yesterday the BBC R4 Today went to Lodz in Poland, and captured exactly what I have mentioned here). The whole idea of the EU enlargement, and the funds provided to those countries, was that we will help these countries from their Communist past recover, their people will have better lives, and they will be happy to live there. It has always been the expectation that many immigrants from these countries will only stay a few years. This can now be seen. The trouble is that Brexit is causing them to leave with a bad feeling about the UK. That will have consequences in the future. @Fiiish argues robustly because we tried to argue this point ("want to curb immigration? the policy levers are already in place") more calmly, and we were drowned in a cacophony of Farage inspired xenophobia. (not from you personally, as you have admirably explained).
Thye won't all leave. My sister in Eltham has new neighbours, a young Polish family. The house they have bought must be at the £550k level and they have taken on a mortgage a year after the vote. He works in IT, but also, being Polish, does his own renovation of the house, in what spare time he has. Typical Polish work ethic. I imagine that he contributes far more in taxes and NI contributions than my sister (who understands and appreciates that perfectly well). Do we want to lose immigrants like that?
The uk is a considerably smaller country than France and Germany in terms of land suitable for housing and I want to protect our countryside and way of life in the same way as the Germans French swedes Austrians and Finnish people that I have met and discussed this with on my travels.
I think our country simply has a bigger problem with this than others and consequently needs to take more action to deal with it. For me the Eu with Cameron weren't going to entertain any discussion on this.
When it came to the referendum vote my biggest problem with vote leave was that I did not want to be associated with farage gove and Johnson and mulled over my vote for several weeks.
As usual the arguments of those characters (the politicians more so than Halligan) rely on the public's highly limited understanding of world trade mechanisms. They are peddling simplistic populist slogans in the belief that most people cannot get their heads around facts like those the thread author presents. It is a tactic that has worked admirably for them up to now of course.
You however have an admirable grip on such trade mechanisms. Please tell us what kind of trade deal you would favour with the EU at this time. Would it require single market access, and if so will we stick to the Four Freedoms as part of your deal? If we are going to leave the single market, you run up against the issues the thread author highlights. What is your response to them?
Cutting ties with an organisation with actual standards for ethical farming and subsidies for farmers who ensure 'wild' patches in their fields strikes me as a poor way to do this.
British industrial farming is destroying our natural ecosystems. Do you think the Tories have any interest in halting that march, when there's a quick buck to be made?
We house our population inefficiently (so many empty properties) and we don't educate children adequately about family planning, nor do we allow them access to free contraception (as we really, really should). Add this to an ageing population and the burden on the system is clear. Virtually none of it cones from the EU, but it's a convenient scapegoat for those powerful figures with media platforms who could do without people thinking for themselves.
Ask yourself this. How will Brexit provide a CONCRETE way in which population growth can be halted?
There have been Brexit supporters on this very thread (and others) that have advocated no deal. And no, i'm not going back to find the individual statements.
The rest of the post is just your opinion of a remainers' motivation - about as valid as lumping all leavers in together.
Then again, it's ok because you invalidated the entire post by sticking liberal elite at the bottom. The worst thing about this 'populist wave' is those who identify with it have misappropriated liberalism into a derogatory term. The people who achieved so much under its banner should be rightfully turning in their graves at the ungrateful tarnishing of their memories.
Being out of the EU is a bad deal whatever the financial details, it is a bad deal because the UK is out, end of story.
This is one reason why showing a hand in discussions is meaningless, the divorce itself is the issue, not who gets to keep the Joan Armatrading records.
In terms of immigration and numbers, it is a problem for the planet as a whole isn't it?
To simply focus on population numbers in the UK won't make the worldwide issues go away, it is a bit like saying global warming is a problem, but the UK can have a shaft of clean fresh air on this country alone, and the crap air will linger over everywhere else.
I still believe there will be no deal and negotiations are a waste of time. As an ardent remainer and remoaner I think time would have been saved if the UK had said 'fuck you' to the rest of the EU the day after the vote, and by now the UK could be living with the consequences. Hundreds of thousands of UK nationals could have been repatriated by now, and hundreds of thousands of EU nationals could have been forcibly removed, and the UK could have signed a trade deal with Borneo.
Come on then Dippy mate, help us understand who is in this "elite". Maybe separate the elite from the liberal? It's the elite I am interested in.
And not just because I want to know just how far I have to go before joining you as a member of the elite :-)
Can we hear some actually credible reasoning instead of the same old recycled toilet noises stolen straight off Breitbart?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/31/are-you-metropolitan-elite-labour-quiz
I was doing pretty well in avoiding the tag Liberal Elite until I got to Question 8.
So, my name is Bob and I am a Liberal Elite.
Not bad from the guardian, not bad at all.
Sadly i had a Post It out, totting up my score from my desk in shoreditch - while wearing a checked shirt! Even without question 8 i was in danger of heading off the charts.
The main difference being we also offer the option of permanent residence, something I will never be able to obtain here.
Bang average, me. Not surprising. Elites didn't go to polytechnics. They don't usually go to football much either, unless for "positioning" motives.