Did you have a reason for saying about Richard Corbett "their hatred for Britain as a nation state knows no bounds" @Southbank ? I still haven't seen anything that justifies such an attack.
It was enough for me that he voted with Verhofstedt against trade talks starting last year. The jury is out on his support for England, there are a lot of Remainers who find supporting England and the Cross of St George a bit 'Brexity'.
Apologies if I've missed it but I'm still interested in your views on the recent behind closed doors meeting that a minority group of MP's had with a representative of a foreign country? No one from our government authorised it nor was anyone independent from the Civil Service present to protect the UK's interests.
All sounds a bit more sinister behaviour than a bloke wanting the most favourable draw for the team he follows.
Because it would be really weird if you thought that meeting an American to discuss a favourable trade deal was worse than meeting the man whose job it is to stop a favourable trade deal.
Did you have a reason for saying about Richard Corbett "their hatred for Britain as a nation state knows no bounds" @Southbank ? I still haven't seen anything that justifies such an attack.
It was enough for me that he voted with Verhofstedt against trade talks starting last year. The jury is out on his support for England, there are a lot of Remainers who find supporting England and the Cross of St George a bit 'Brexity'.
Apologies if I've missed it but I'm still interested in your views on the recent behind closed doors meeting that a minority group of MP's had with a representative of a foreign country? No one from our government authorised it nor was anyone independent from the Civil Service present to protect the UK's interests.
All sounds a bit more sinister behaviour than a bloke wanting the most favourable draw for the team he follows.
Ha, ha, yeah good one. As the story points out Barnier met with both Leavers and Remainers and everything about it was upfront.
Rather than more deflection do you have a view on a minority of hardline Brexiteer MP's from one party meeting quietly with one of Trumps representatives to discuss future trade arrangement without telling the Prime Minister or Civil Service?
Did you have a reason for saying about Richard Corbett "their hatred for Britain as a nation state knows no bounds" @Southbank ? I still haven't seen anything that justifies such an attack.
It was enough for me that he voted with Verhofstedt against trade talks starting last year. The jury is out on his support for England, there are a lot of Remainers who find supporting England and the Cross of St George a bit 'Brexity'.
Apologies if I've missed it but I'm still interested in your views on the recent behind closed doors meeting that a minority group of MP's had with a representative of a foreign country? No one from our government authorised it nor was anyone independent from the Civil Service present to protect the UK's interests.
All sounds a bit more sinister behaviour than a bloke wanting the most favourable draw for the team he follows.
Because it would be really weird if you thought that meeting an American to discuss a favourable trade deal was worse than meeting the man whose job it is to stop a favourable trade deal.
Did you have a reason for saying about Richard Corbett "their hatred for Britain as a nation state knows no bounds" @Southbank ? I still haven't seen anything that justifies such an attack.
It was enough for me that he voted with Verhofstedt against trade talks starting last year. The jury is out on his support for England, there are a lot of Remainers who find supporting England and the Cross of St George a bit 'Brexity'.
Apologies if I've missed it but I'm still interested in your views on the recent behind closed doors meeting that a minority group of MP's had with a representative of a foreign country? No one from our government authorised it nor was anyone independent from the Civil Service present to protect the UK's interests.
All sounds a bit more sinister behaviour than a bloke wanting the most favourable draw for the team he follows.
Because it would be really weird if you thought that meeting an American to discuss a favourable trade deal was worse than meeting the man whose job it is to stop a favourable trade deal.
You do know that Michel Barnier is not mandated to negotiate a trade deal between the UK and EU27?
His role is to negotiate the Withdrawal Agreement, including a political declaration of the outline of a future relationship - it's Cecilia Mallstrom's team (I believe) who are responsible for trade deals.
All that Barnier has done is reinforce the EU message that the UK, by virtue of the Prime Minister's response, has ruled itself out of the most favourable non-member trading relationship options with the EU. There is still the option of a Free Trade Agreement, though more limited in scope, which is, relative to not having an agreement, a favourable trade deal.
Whether a US offer, under the Trump Presidency, would be better for the UK, and particularly UK consumers, than an FTA with the EU, is fairly moot at present (I have my doubts, but then I'm more concerned about agriculture and wider agribusiness than most).
Did you have a reason for saying about Richard Corbett "their hatred for Britain as a nation state knows no bounds" @Southbank ? I still haven't seen anything that justifies such an attack.
It was enough for me that he voted with Verhofstedt against trade talks starting last year. The jury is out on his support for England, there are a lot of Remainers who find supporting England and the Cross of St George a bit 'Brexity'.
Apologies if I've missed it but I'm still interested in your views on the recent behind closed doors meeting that a minority group of MP's had with a representative of a foreign country? No one from our government authorised it nor was anyone independent from the Civil Service present to protect the UK's interests.
All sounds a bit more sinister behaviour than a bloke wanting the most favourable draw for the team he follows.
Because it would be really weird if you thought that meeting an American to discuss a favourable trade deal was worse than meeting the man whose job it is to stop a favourable trade deal.
If you mean Barnier. No his job is not to stop a favourable trade deal, his job is to try to understand what the UK expects from brexit, and whether it fits in with EU rules. The EU he is working for. Time and again the EU side says 'tell us' and 'the clock is ticking', they have been consistent. The UK side says nothing tangible, and even today we learn that two possible options in one area might really be three, they'll try to sort it at Chequers on Friday. What is Barnier supposed to negotiate with there? He has to continue to wait and wait and wait for the UK proposals. if the UK internally doesn't yet know what brexit means, how is Barnier supposed to know? Barnier is one of the reliable characters in this chite show, as, ironically, is Jacob Rees Mogg.
Did you have a reason for saying about Richard Corbett "their hatred for Britain as a nation state knows no bounds" @Southbank ? I still haven't seen anything that justifies such an attack.
It was enough for me that he voted with Verhofstedt against trade talks starting last year. The jury is out on his support for England, there are a lot of Remainers who find supporting England and the Cross of St George a bit 'Brexity'.
Apologies if I've missed it but I'm still interested in your views on the recent behind closed doors meeting that a minority group of MP's had with a representative of a foreign country? No one from our government authorised it nor was anyone independent from the Civil Service present to protect the UK's interests.
All sounds a bit more sinister behaviour than a bloke wanting the most favourable draw for the team he follows.
Because it would be really weird if you thought that meeting an American to discuss a favourable trade deal was worse than meeting the man whose job it is to stop a favourable trade deal.
If you mean Barnier. No his job is not to stop a favourable trade deal, his job is to try to understand what the UK expects from brexit, and whether it fits in with EU rules. The EU he is working for. Time and again the EU side says 'tell us' and 'the clock is ticking', they have been consistent. The UK side says nothing tangible, and even today we learn that two possible options in one area might really be three, they'll try to sort it at Chequers on Friday. What is Barnier supposed to negotiate with there? He has to continue to wait and wait and wait for the UK proposals. if the UK internally doesn't yet know what brexit means, how is Barnier supposed to know? Barnier is one of the reliable characters in this chite show, as, ironically, is Jacob Rees Mogg.
It's clear what is best for the UK. leave the EU and have a free trade agreement. For some reason Remainers don't agree and imagine a half arsed semi Brexit without representation under the control of Brussels and the rest of the EU is what we should prefer.
Irish border problem ceases to exist with a free trade agreement....
Summed up to perfection by an Irish MP:-
Dublin: “You mustn’t put up a border.” London: “Fair enough: we won’t.” Dublin: “Neither must we.” London: “That’s your call.” Dublin: “Why are you being so difficult?”
Did you have a reason for saying about Richard Corbett "their hatred for Britain as a nation state knows no bounds" @Southbank ? I still haven't seen anything that justifies such an attack.
It was enough for me that he voted with Verhofstedt against trade talks starting last year. The jury is out on his support for England, there are a lot of Remainers who find supporting England and the Cross of St George a bit 'Brexity'.
Apologies if I've missed it but I'm still interested in your views on the recent behind closed doors meeting that a minority group of MP's had with a representative of a foreign country? No one from our government authorised it nor was anyone independent from the Civil Service present to protect the UK's interests.
All sounds a bit more sinister behaviour than a bloke wanting the most favourable draw for the team he follows.
Because it would be really weird if you thought that meeting an American to discuss a favourable trade deal was worse than meeting the man whose job it is to stop a favourable trade deal.
If you mean Barnier. No his job is not to stop a favourable trade deal, his job is to try to understand what the UK expects from brexit, and whether it fits in with EU rules. The EU he is working for. Time and again the EU side says 'tell us' and 'the clock is ticking', they have been consistent. The UK side says nothing tangible, and even today we learn that two possible options in one area might really be three, they'll try to sort it at Chequers on Friday. What is Barnier supposed to negotiate with there? He has to continue to wait and wait and wait for the UK proposals. if the UK internally doesn't yet know what brexit means, how is Barnier supposed to know? Barnier is one of the reliable characters in this chite show, as, ironically, is Jacob Rees Mogg.
It's clear what is best for the UK. leave the EU and have a free trade agreement. For some reason Remainers don't agree and imagine a half arsed semi Brexit without representation under the control of Brussels and the rest of the EU is what we should prefer.
Irish border problem ceases to exist with a free trade agreement....
Summed up to perfection by an Irish MP:-
Dublin: “You mustn’t put up a border.” London: “Fair enough: we won’t.” Dublin: “Neither must we.” London: “That’s your call.” Dublin: “Why are you being so difficult?”
It is abundantly clear, and has become clearer every day since the Referendum, (especially to the UK business community), that what is best for the U.K. is that it does not leave the EU.
I agree, the Irish border problem ceases to exist with a Free Trade agreement. But who is preventing this agreement? I would say it is the UK Brexit negotiators who have a completely fanciful idea of what the EU should reasonably accept in order to achieve such a deal.
A free trade agreement, presumably just as things are now means the Irish border stays as it is now? How about the movement of people? Ignore that? If so brexit doesn't actually happen in terms of taking back control of UK borders. A half arsed brexit is not desirable, and a no deal brexit on WTO rules obliges the UK to have border checks in order to participate in WTO arrangements. Isn't the situation that no one wants a border, but just as the referendum result obliges brexit, brexit obliges a hard border even if nobody wants it?
What might be read between the lines is that tariffs are not important unless they serve as a protectionist measure and non-tariffs are not very effective at increasing the prosperity of developing nations . What the not very clever lady should have said was that most countries use tariffs as a convenient hidden tax on consumers portrayed as a tax on suppliers and left it at that.
Clever one made the free trade deal argument well with his graph. Proved that reducing tariffs increases GDP in line with how much you can reduce the tariffs.
The EU know that the UK's ability to make free trade agreements outside the EU is seen as a pre-requisite to a successful Brexit. The EU knows it and will move heaven and earth to prevent it. Our negotiating team doesn't know how to react because it should have given its own pre-conditions of a free trade deal or no deal. The EU states would then have had a choice to make.
For the morons like me who think trade will not collapse and the GDP fall as a result of Brexit, I've already provided the facts to counter Project Fear. The absence of PRODUCTIVITY GROWTH is the reason for the flatlining in GDP, not the Brexit vote. GDP is 20% below what it should be had the growth prior to 2009 continued in a straight line. The worst Project Fear projection is 7.9% over 20? 30? years so what we have experienced since 2009 is three times worse than the worse Brexit projection and spread over twice the period.
Solve productivity, and Brexit is a non-event. In my view, Brexit is more likely to deliver a more dynamic forward looking UK than floating along on the coat tails of the EU as it falls apart.
Must admit, had I known the EU were going to issue the Package Holiday Directive I would have voted Remain.
Brilliant idea. Means if my holiday operator is Spanish I have to claim though the Spanish Courts even if I booked it from an agent in Bromley High Street. Hands up anyone whose slashed their wrists trying to make a civil claim through Spanish Court system.
Give it a while, but it will happen, radio adverts for ambulance chasers getting your compensation from a Greek holiday operator, or claims experts fluent in Latvian.
Not only massive increase in business for back street litigation cowboys, linguists and hike in liability insurance for operators, it will mean less consumer choice from legitimate operators as they restrict which hoteliers and carriers they recommend.
Nor do you don't have to be an EU citizen for consumers to benefit from it anyway. Firms outside the EU just set up a presence in an EU country, pretend that's where they are established, and continue to sell them from anywhere, a la Amazon etc.
Just a regulatory hurdle increasing costs and solving a problem no one ever worried about until they were told to worry. That's what I like about the EU, regulation for the sake of regulation and keeping the Commission relevant. and sod the unintended consequences.
So on my way from one EU coast to another, what better than to drop in on the Brexit thread where island thinking is still very much in evidence.
@Southbank . Same old same old. You are maintaining in essence that the state of the country is because citizens fail to engage with politicians, who are as a result useless, because of EU membership. What a load of old tosh. Again.
While I am to some extent insulated from the situation in the U.K., my family are not. So I will again mention my main concerns that could be addressed by the political situation. One, the NHS. it needs fixing. It is entirely within the national political gift to fix it. If it needs more money, we will have to cough up, right? Nobody in "the EU" is stopping us. Indeed several of them spend more, and have better outcomes.
Ditto, elderly care. As I found out in quite shocking detail in he last twelve months.
It was Britain who decided that privatizing utilities was a good idea. It was Britian which persuaded the EC that it is a great idea which should be adopted across Europe. If you voted for Thatcher or Major, you voted for this. You made your bed. You can lie in it.
In earlier posts you have conceded that many of the Brexit politicians are a rabble. However again you have not faced up to your decision. This rabble ( do I have to name them again?) has a political vision for the U.K. which is of a hard right agenda. Very hard right indeed. You voted for them. You will put into power Johnson, Gove, the Cartoon Aristocrat, etc. or Corbyn. You made your bed. You can lie in it.
In short, it's the old story. Britons voting for the party which cuts their direct taxes, helps them to all become supposed property magnates, and then being surprised when public services fall apart. And then, goaded by the same rabble, deciding that it's all the fault of some foreigners. Absolutely bloody pathetic.
@Dippenhall. Re the "facts" about GDP. If productivity is the driver, can you kindly explain to me why in the two years or so before the referendum, U.K. GDP growth was trending along the same path as the rest of the EU, but lurched downwards about half a year after the vote, while the EU Ticked upwards. I never underestimate your grasp of data, but I will be interested to see how you argue "productivity" as the only significant factor in what is a de-coupling in the last 18 months.
Right, my flight is boarding. Last week the German coast, tonight the Bulgarian Black Sea. Seamless, hassle free. One Europe. Love it. So long as I land in time for the match....
So on my way from one EU coast to another, what better than to drop in on the Brexit thread where island thinking is still very much in evidence.
@Southbank . Same old same old. You are maintaining in essence that the state of the country is because citizens fail to engage with politicians, who are as a result useless, because of EU membership. What a load of old tosh. Again.
While I am to some extent insulated from the situation in the U.K., my family are not. So I will again mention my main concerns that could be addressed by the political situation. One, the NHS. it needs fixing. It is entirely within the national political gift to fix it. If it needs more money, we will have to cough up, right? Nobody in "the EU" is stopping us. Indeed several of them spend more, and have better outcomes.
Ditto, elderly care. As I found out in quite shocking detail in he last twelve months.
It was Britain who decided that privatizing utilities was a good idea. It was Britian which persuaded the EC that it is a great idea which should be adopted across Europe. If you voted for Thatcher or Major, you voted for this. You made your bed. You can lie in it.
In earlier posts you have conceded that many of the Brexit politicians are a rabble. However again you have not faced up to your decision. This rabble ( do I have to name them again?) has a political vision for the U.K. which is of a hard right agenda. Very hard right indeed. You voted for them. You will put into power Johnson, Gove, the Cartoon Aristocrat, etc. or Corbyn. You made your bed. You can lie in it.
In short, it's the old story. Britons voting for the party which cuts their direct taxes, helps them to all become supposed property magnates, and then being surprised when public services fall apart. And then, goaded by the same rabble, deciding that it's all the fault of some foreigners. Absolutely bloody pathetic.
@Dippenhall. Re the "facts" about GDP. If productivity is the driver, can you kindly explain to me why in the two years or so before the referendum, U.K. GDP growth was trending along the same path as the rest of the EU, but lurched downwards about half a year after the vote, while the EU Ticked upwards. I never underestimate your grasp of data, but I will be interested to see how you argue "productivity" as the only significant factor in what is a de-coupling in the last 18 months.
Right, my flight is boarding. Last week the German coast, tonight the Bulgarian Black Sea. Seamless, hassle free. One Europe. Love it. So long as I land in time for the match....
I can't believe you are having a holiday rather than posting on here, get your priorities right @PragueAddick .
So on my way from one EU coast to another, what better than to drop in on the Brexit thread where island thinking is still very much in evidence.
@Southbank . Same old same old. You are maintaining in essence that the state of the country is because citizens fail to engage with politicians, who are as a result useless, because of EU membership. What a load of old tosh. Again.
While I am to some extent insulated from the situation in the U.K., my family are not. So I will again mention my main concerns that could be addressed by the political situation. One, the NHS. it needs fixing. It is entirely within the national political gift to fix it. If it needs more money, we will have to cough up, right? Nobody in "the EU" is stopping us. Indeed several of them spend more, and have better outcomes.
Ditto, elderly care. As I found out in quite shocking detail in he last twelve months.
It was Britain who decided that privatizing utilities was a good idea. It was Britian which persuaded the EC that it is a great idea which should be adopted across Europe. If you voted for Thatcher or Major, you voted for this. You made your bed. You can lie in it.
In earlier posts you have conceded that many of the Brexit politicians are a rabble. However again you have not faced up to your decision. This rabble ( do I have to name them again?) has a political vision for the U.K. which is of a hard right agenda. Very hard right indeed. You voted for them. You will put into power Johnson, Gove, the Cartoon Aristocrat, etc. or Corbyn. You made your bed. You can lie in it.
In short, it's the old story. Britons voting for the party which cuts their direct taxes, helps them to all become supposed property magnates, and then being surprised when public services fall apart. And then, goaded by the same rabble, deciding that it's all the fault of some foreigners. Absolutely bloody pathetic.
@Dippenhall. Re the "facts" about GDP. If productivity is the driver, can you kindly explain to me why in the two years or so before the referendum, U.K. GDP growth was trending along the same path as the rest of the EU, but lurched downwards about half a year after the vote, while the EU Ticked upwards. I never underestimate your grasp of data, but I will be interested to see how you argue "productivity" as the only significant factor in what is a de-coupling in the last 18 months.
Right, my flight is boarding. Last week the German coast, tonight the Bulgarian Black Sea. Seamless, hassle free. One Europe. Love it. So long as I land in time for the match....
I can't believe you are having a holiday rather than posting on here, get your priorities right @PragueAddick .
So on my way from one EU coast to another, what better than to drop in on the Brexit thread where island thinking is still very much in evidence.
@Southbank . Same old same old. You are maintaining in essence that the state of the country is because citizens fail to engage with politicians, who are as a result useless, because of EU membership. What a load of old tosh. Again.
While I am to some extent insulated from the situation in the U.K., my family are not. So I will again mention my main concerns that could be addressed by the political situation. One, the NHS. it needs fixing. It is entirely within the national political gift to fix it. If it needs more money, we will have to cough up, right? Nobody in "the EU" is stopping us. Indeed several of them spend more, and have better outcomes.
Ditto, elderly care. As I found out in quite shocking detail in he last twelve months.
It was Britain who decided that privatizing utilities was a good idea. It was Britian which persuaded the EC that it is a great idea which should be adopted across Europe. If you voted for Thatcher or Major, you voted for this. You made your bed. You can lie in it.
In earlier posts you have conceded that many of the Brexit politicians are a rabble. However again you have not faced up to your decision. This rabble ( do I have to name them again?) has a political vision for the U.K. which is of a hard right agenda. Very hard right indeed. You voted for them. You will put into power Johnson, Gove, the Cartoon Aristocrat, etc. or Corbyn. You made your bed. You can lie in it.
In short, it's the old story. Britons voting for the party which cuts their direct taxes, helps them to all become supposed property magnates, and then being surprised when public services fall apart. And then, goaded by the same rabble, deciding that it's all the fault of some foreigners. Absolutely bloody pathetic.
@Dippenhall. Re the "facts" about GDP. If productivity is the driver, can you kindly explain to me why in the two years or so before the referendum, U.K. GDP growth was trending along the same path as the rest of the EU, but lurched downwards about half a year after the vote, while the EU Ticked upwards. I never underestimate your grasp of data, but I will be interested to see how you argue "productivity" as the only significant factor in what is a de-coupling in the last 18 months.
Right, my flight is boarding. Last week the German coast, tonight the Bulgarian Black Sea. Seamless, hassle free. One Europe. Love it. So long as I land in time for the match....
I can't believe you are having a holiday rather than posting on here, get your priorities right @PragueAddick .
So on my way from one EU coast to another, what better than to drop in on the Brexit thread where island thinking is still very much in evidence.
@Southbank . Same old same old. You are maintaining in essence that the state of the country is because citizens fail to engage with politicians, who are as a result useless, because of EU membership. What a load of old tosh. Again.
While I am to some extent insulated from the situation in the U.K., my family are not. So I will again mention my main concerns that could be addressed by the political situation. One, the NHS. it needs fixing. It is entirely within the national political gift to fix it. If it needs more money, we will have to cough up, right? Nobody in "the EU" is stopping us. Indeed several of them spend more, and have better outcomes.
Ditto, elderly care. As I found out in quite shocking detail in he last twelve months.
It was Britain who decided that privatizing utilities was a good idea. It was Britian which persuaded the EC that it is a great idea which should be adopted across Europe. If you voted for Thatcher or Major, you voted for this. You made your bed. You can lie in it.
In earlier posts you have conceded that many of the Brexit politicians are a rabble. However again you have not faced up to your decision. This rabble ( do I have to name them again?) has a political vision for the U.K. which is of a hard right agenda. Very hard right indeed. You voted for them. You will put into power Johnson, Gove, the Cartoon Aristocrat, etc. or Corbyn. You made your bed. You can lie in it.
In short, it's the old story. Britons voting for the party which cuts their direct taxes, helps them to all become supposed property magnates, and then being surprised when public services fall apart. And then, goaded by the same rabble, deciding that it's all the fault of some foreigners. Absolutely bloody pathetic.
@Dippenhall. Re the "facts" about GDP. If productivity is the driver, can you kindly explain to me why in the two years or so before the referendum, U.K. GDP growth was trending along the same path as the rest of the EU, but lurched downwards about half a year after the vote, while the EU Ticked upwards. I never underestimate your grasp of data, but I will be interested to see how you argue "productivity" as the only significant factor in what is a de-coupling in the last 18 months.
Right, my flight is boarding. Last week the German coast, tonight the Bulgarian Black Sea. Seamless, hassle free. One Europe. Love it. So long as I land in time for the match....
So on my way from one EU coast to another, what better than to drop in on the Brexit thread where island thinking is still very much in evidence.
@Southbank . Same old same old. You are maintaining in essence that the state of the country is because citizens fail to engage with politicians, who are as a result useless, because of EU membership. What a load of old tosh. Again.
While I am to some extent insulated from the situation in the U.K., my family are not. So I will again mention my main concerns that could be addressed by the political situation. One, the NHS. it needs fixing. It is entirely within the national political gift to fix it. If it needs more money, we will have to cough up, right? Nobody in "the EU" is stopping us. Indeed several of them spend more, and have better outcomes.
Ditto, elderly care. As I found out in quite shocking detail in he last twelve months.
It was Britain who decided that privatizing utilities was a good idea. It was Britian which persuaded the EC that it is a great idea which should be adopted across Europe. If you voted for Thatcher or Major, you voted for this. You made your bed. You can lie in it.
In earlier posts you have conceded that many of the Brexit politicians are a rabble. However again you have not faced up to your decision. This rabble ( do I have to name them again?) has a political vision for the U.K. which is of a hard right agenda. Very hard right indeed. You voted for them. You will put into power Johnson, Gove, the Cartoon Aristocrat, etc. or Corbyn. You made your bed. You can lie in it.
In short, it's the old story. Britons voting for the party which cuts their direct taxes, helps them to all become supposed property magnates, and then being surprised when public services fall apart. And then, goaded by the same rabble, deciding that it's all the fault of some foreigners. Absolutely bloody pathetic.
@Dippenhall. Re the "facts" about GDP. If productivity is the driver, can you kindly explain to me why in the two years or so before the referendum, U.K. GDP growth was trending along the same path as the rest of the EU, but lurched downwards about half a year after the vote, while the EU Ticked upwards. I never underestimate your grasp of data, but I will be interested to see how you argue "productivity" as the only significant factor in what is a de-coupling in the last 18 months.
Right, my flight is boarding. Last week the German coast, tonight the Bulgarian Black Sea. Seamless, hassle free. One Europe. Love it. So long as I land in time for the match....
Were we to actually leave the EU and its institutions, which looks very unlikely, I would not expect the problem of productivity or the NHS to be automatically solved. They are both complex problems with no easy solutions. The connection between Brexit and any positive changes in British society comes largely through political renewal and a sense of the possibility of change. There is currently deep and widespread cynicism about politics and politicians, and a lack of belief in even the possibility of significant change. If Brexit is denied these sentiments will deepen and make the kind of changes you desire even less likely. Politics is more important than economics, not because economics is unimportant-in fact it is vital, but because without political change there will be no economic progress.
This is actually truly amazing to read. Laura Kuenssberg has her finger on the pulse and what she is telling us could be taken straight out of a Marx brothers film.
This government couldn’t negotiate a fuck in a brothel.
If brexit is supposed to herald a new age of optimism from which all good things will flow for somebody or other, they had better get started. It has been unmitigated misery so far. There is no financial, judicial, political, cultural, social, environmental or psychological upside. Maybe everybody should wear orange robes and sing 'Hare Krishna' up and down Westminster to improve the situation.
So on my way from one EU coast to another, what better than to drop in on the Brexit thread where island thinking is still very much in evidence.
@Southbank . Same old same old. You are maintaining in essence that the state of the country is because citizens fail to engage with politicians, who are as a result useless, because of EU membership. What a load of old tosh. Again.
While I am to some extent insulated from the situation in the U.K., my family are not. So I will again mention my main concerns that could be addressed by the political situation. One, the NHS. it needs fixing. It is entirely within the national political gift to fix it. If it needs more money, we will have to cough up, right? Nobody in "the EU" is stopping us. Indeed several of them spend more, and have better outcomes.
Ditto, elderly care. As I found out in quite shocking detail in he last twelve months.
It was Britain who decided that privatizing utilities was a good idea. It was Britian which persuaded the EC that it is a great idea which should be adopted across Europe. If you voted for Thatcher or Major, you voted for this. You made your bed. You can lie in it.
In earlier posts you have conceded that many of the Brexit politicians are a rabble. However again you have not faced up to your decision. This rabble ( do I have to name them again?) has a political vision for the U.K. which is of a hard right agenda. Very hard right indeed. You voted for them. You will put into power Johnson, Gove, the Cartoon Aristocrat, etc. or Corbyn. You made your bed. You can lie in it.
In short, it's the old story. Britons voting for the party which cuts their direct taxes, helps them to all become supposed property magnates, and then being surprised when public services fall apart. And then, goaded by the same rabble, deciding that it's all the fault of some foreigners. Absolutely bloody pathetic.
@Dippenhall. Re the "facts" about GDP. If productivity is the driver, can you kindly explain to me why in the two years or so before the referendum, U.K. GDP growth was trending along the same path as the rest of the EU, but lurched downwards about half a year after the vote, while the EU Ticked upwards. I never underestimate your grasp of data, but I will be interested to see how you argue "productivity" as the only significant factor in what is a de-coupling in the last 18 months.
Right, my flight is boarding. Last week the German coast, tonight the Bulgarian Black Sea. Seamless, hassle free. One Europe. Love it. So long as I land in time for the match....
Were we to actually leave the EU and its institutions, which looks very unlikely, I would not expect the problem of productivity or the NHS to be automatically solved. They are both complex problems with no easy solutions. The connection between Brexit and any positive changes in British society comes largely through political renewal and a sense of the possibility of change. There is currently deep and widespread cynicism about politics and politicians, and a lack of belief in even the possibility of significant change. If Brexit is denied these sentiments will deepen and make the kind of changes you desire even less likely. Politics is more important than economics, not because economics is unimportant-in fact it is vital, but because without political change there will be no economic progress.
Whatever you do, keep that from the Chinese Communist Party....
So on my way from one EU coast to another, what better than to drop in on the Brexit thread where island thinking is still very much in evidence.
@Southbank . Same old same old. You are maintaining in essence that the state of the country is because citizens fail to engage with politicians, who are as a result useless, because of EU membership. What a load of old tosh. Again.
While I am to some extent insulated from the situation in the U.K., my family are not. So I will again mention my main concerns that could be addressed by the political situation. One, the NHS. it needs fixing. It is entirely within the national political gift to fix it. If it needs more money, we will have to cough up, right? Nobody in "the EU" is stopping us. Indeed several of them spend more, and have better outcomes.
Ditto, elderly care. As I found out in quite shocking detail in he last twelve months.
It was Britain who decided that privatizing utilities was a good idea. It was Britian which persuaded the EC that it is a great idea which should be adopted across Europe. If you voted for Thatcher or Major, you voted for this. You made your bed. You can lie in it.
In earlier posts you have conceded that many of the Brexit politicians are a rabble. However again you have not faced up to your decision. This rabble ( do I have to name them again?) has a political vision for the U.K. which is of a hard right agenda. Very hard right indeed. You voted for them. You will put into power Johnson, Gove, the Cartoon Aristocrat, etc. or Corbyn. You made your bed. You can lie in it.
In short, it's the old story. Britons voting for the party which cuts their direct taxes, helps them to all become supposed property magnates, and then being surprised when public services fall apart. And then, goaded by the same rabble, deciding that it's all the fault of some foreigners. Absolutely bloody pathetic.
@Dippenhall. Re the "facts" about GDP. If productivity is the driver, can you kindly explain to me why in the two years or so before the referendum, U.K. GDP growth was trending along the same path as the rest of the EU, but lurched downwards about half a year after the vote, while the EU Ticked upwards. I never underestimate your grasp of data, but I will be interested to see how you argue "productivity" as the only significant factor in what is a de-coupling in the last 18 months.
Right, my flight is boarding. Last week the German coast, tonight the Bulgarian Black Sea. Seamless, hassle free. One Europe. Love it. So long as I land in time for the match....
Were we to actually leave the EU and its institutions, which looks very unlikely, I would not expect the problem of productivity or the NHS to be automatically solved. They are both complex problems with no easy solutions. The connection between Brexit and any positive changes in British society comes largely through political renewal and a sense of the possibility of change. There is currently deep and widespread cynicism about politics and politicians, and a lack of belief in even the possibility of significant change. If Brexit is denied these sentiments will deepen and make the kind of changes you desire even less likely. Politics is more important than economics, not because economics is unimportant-in fact it is vital, but because without political change there will be no economic progress.
I am interested in your implied suggestion that cynicism is assuaged by the process of Brexit. Would you say that there is more, or less, cynicism about politics and politicians than there was at the time of the referendum?
As a reminder (because the referendum was a long time ago), this was when:
- David Cameron was Prime Minister and hadn't yet quit his job, left the House and scuttled off - George Osborne was Chancellor and hadn't been replaced, left the House and settled into a job as a newspaper editor, from where he was able to criticise the Government (and former colleagues) as often as he wanted - the Conservatives had a majority, before the new leader spunked it away - Gove and Johnson were still on speaking terms - we had a Foreign Secretary that people trusted in Philip Hammond (and his colleagues in the Tory party still spoke to him) - the Defence Secretary (Michael Fallon) hadn't resigned for groping people - the Home Secretary hadn't appointed a replacement Home Secretary who was both incompetent and had to resign, but was also able to show many failings were those of her predecessor - the new Prime Minister - the Government hadn't bribed racists and misogynists with £1bn - and the Government hadn't spent two years failing to agree what it was they had been asked to do, and therefore hadn't agreed a starting point for negotiations that are about to finish
Is that the background that leads us towards the sunny uplands of unfettered and admiration for our political leaders?
What might be read between the lines is that tariffs are not important unless they serve as a protectionist measure and non-tariffs are not very effective at increasing the prosperity of developing nations . What the not very clever lady should have said was that most countries use tariffs as a convenient hidden tax on consumers portrayed as a tax on suppliers and left it at that.
Clever one made the free trade deal argument well with his graph. Proved that reducing tariffs increases GDP in line with how much you can reduce the tariffs.
The EU know that the UK's ability to make free trade agreements outside the EU is seen as a pre-requisite to a successful Brexit. The EU knows it and will move heaven and earth to prevent it. Our negotiating team doesn't know how to react because it should have given its own pre-conditions of a free trade deal or no deal. The EU states would then have had a choice to make.
For the morons like me who think trade will not collapse and the GDP fall as a result of Brexit, I've already provided the facts to counter Project Fear. The absence of PRODUCTIVITY GROWTH is the reason for the flatlining in GDP, not the Brexit vote. GDP is 20% below what it should be had the growth prior to 2009 continued in a straight line. The worst Project Fear projection is 7.9% over 20? 30? years so what we have experienced since 2009 is three times worse than the worse Brexit projection and spread over twice the period.
Solve productivity, and Brexit is a non-event. In my view, Brexit is more likely to deliver a more dynamic forward looking UK than floating along on the coat tails of the EU as it falls apart.
Must admit, had I known the EU were going to issue the Package Holiday Directive I would have voted Remain.
Brilliant idea. Means if my holiday operator is Spanish I have to claim though the Spanish Courts even if I booked it from an agent in Bromley High Street. Hands up anyone whose slashed their wrists trying to make a civil claim through Spanish Court system.
Give it a while, but it will happen, radio adverts for ambulance chasers getting your compensation from a Greek holiday operator, or claims experts fluent in Latvian.
Not only massive increase in business for back street litigation cowboys, linguists and hike in liability insurance for operators, it will mean less consumer choice from legitimate operators as they restrict which hoteliers and carriers they recommend.
Nor do you don't have to be an EU citizen for consumers to benefit from it anyway. Firms outside the EU just set up a presence in an EU country, pretend that's where they are established, and continue to sell them from anywhere, a la Amazon etc.
Just a regulatory hurdle increasing costs and solving a problem no one ever worried about until they were told to worry. That's what I like about the EU, regulation for the sake of regulation and keeping the Commission relevant. and sod the unintended consequences.
Clearly a lot of this nonsense is aimed at me. So very quickly, no one has ever said one piece of consumer protection law is justification for voting Remain alone. That said it's a better reason than most of the rubbish spouted by Leavers.
Moving on, The Package Travel Directive itself dates back decades and gave rise to the 1992 Regulations implementing them domestically. That's over 25 years ago. They've been updated recently to reflect the changes in consumer behaviour and the growth of the internet. Essentially, and our government says this itself, they've been very successful in providing financial security to holiday makers and made providers up their game in treating their clients fairly.
During that 25+ years 100's millions of holidays have been taken by UK consumers and many, many more 100's millions by our fellow EU citizens. Who've all benefited from the same increased levels of financial security of their holiday and better rights to information and redress before and after they travel. For example, how often do you hear of tour operators going bust leaving 1000's of clients with nothing and no holiday these days? You don't any more because they are required to ensure client's funds are secure. But you used to. I know from personal experience the effects of companies going bust leaving nothing for their clients.
You might consider making companies look after their client's money properly a "regulatory hurdle increasing costs and solving a problem no one ever worried about... " but I'd suggest you'd be in a slim minority. Maybe I'm wrong though as that's just my opinion.
Anyway, somehow we've managed, after what...a billion plus(?)...holidays taken across the time period the Directive has been in, without seeing any, "massive increase in business for back street litigation cowboys or linguists". Nor is there any significant market in "ambulance chasers...or claims experts fluent in Latvian." as far as I can tell. If this industry of dodgy claims management operators is coming as you state, it's taking its flipping time arriving isn't it? 1992 I'd remind you.
It might come...but only outside the EU when potentially it will be hugely more difficult to pursue the claim against your imaginary Greek holiday operator. Inside, we're able to not only fall back on the consistent protections across the whole EU we currently enjoy, but also seek assistance in pursuing that redress across borders. You're actually arguing in favour of the EU.
The (EU funded) UK European Consumer Centre is part of a network of agencies that provide free assistance to consumers right across the EU. If you have a problem with your Spanish tour operator (in the unlikely event it wasn't booked and paid for through a UK company) they will liaise, free of charge to you, with their colleagues in the Spanish European Consumer Centre who will assist you and mediate in your claim against the Spanish company. And vice versa of course. What are the chances of that arrangement continuing post Brexit do you think? I'd say slim.
So all in all, far from a situation requiring "wrist slashing" through the Spanish small claims courts, being in the EU not only provides better clarity and consistency of law for businesses but better outcomes and increased support for consumers.
Others can make their own mind up whether ensuring your tour operator has a legal duty to inform you your hotel is undergoing major renovation and offer you an alternative or compensation before you go is, "regulation for the sake of regulation and keeping the Commission relevant" or a reasonable and fair thing to do.
So a whole new non productive industry created as a result of regulation costing more to run than it will ever deliver in value.
Don’t need regulations to find out if hotel is bring renovated or is going to be crap, log into Trip Advisor and do your own research.
People are now encouraged by authority to think they have no personal responsibility to protect themselves, they can be as dumb as they choose and the State will make sure laws exist for nanny to sort things out and run their life.
People are tricked, lied to, and scammed even following research. The EU wide rules help. The argument regarding a nanny state protecting people who really ought to stand on their own two feet, when extended leads to an armed population. Do some research and you might find that a trip to violent London means you ought to arm yourself with an AK 47.
So a whole new non productive industry created as a result of regulation costing more to run than it will ever deliver in value.
Don’t need regulations to find out if hotel is bring renovated or is going to be crap, log into Trip Advisor and do your own research.
People are now encouraged by authority to think they have no personal responsibility to protect themselves, they can be as dumb as they choose and the State will make sure laws exist for nanny to sort things out and run their life.
I suppose that is all you can do when yet another one of your anti EU rants is thoroughly and forensically dismantled......throw in a vacuous Chippy like response!
So a whole new non productive industry created as a result of regulation costing more to run than it will ever deliver in value.
Don’t need regulations to find out if hotel is bring renovated or is going to be crap, log into Trip Advisor and do your own research.
People are now encouraged by authority to think they have no personal responsibility to protect themselves, they can be as dumb as they choose and the State will make sure laws exist for nanny to sort things out and run their life.
I suppose that is all you can do when yet another one of your anti EU rants is thoroughly and forensically dismantled......throw in a vacuous Chippy like response!
Quite the opposite, he wipes the arse of all the rubbish you lot speak...
Comments
Rather than more deflection do you have a view on a minority of hardline Brexiteer MP's from one party meeting quietly with one of Trumps representatives to discuss future trade arrangement without telling the Prime Minister or Civil Service?
His role is to negotiate the Withdrawal Agreement, including a political declaration of the outline of a future relationship - it's Cecilia Mallstrom's team (I believe) who are responsible for trade deals.
All that Barnier has done is reinforce the EU message that the UK, by virtue of the Prime Minister's response, has ruled itself out of the most favourable non-member trading relationship options with the EU. There is still the option of a Free Trade Agreement, though more limited in scope, which is, relative to not having an agreement, a favourable trade deal.
Whether a US offer, under the Trump Presidency, would be better for the UK, and particularly UK consumers, than an FTA with the EU, is fairly moot at present (I have my doubts, but then I'm more concerned about agriculture and wider agribusiness than most).
Time and again the EU side says 'tell us' and 'the clock is ticking', they have been consistent.
The UK side says nothing tangible, and even today we learn that two possible options in one area might really be three, they'll try to sort it at Chequers on Friday.
What is Barnier supposed to negotiate with there? He has to continue to wait and wait and wait for the UK proposals. if the UK internally doesn't yet know what brexit means, how is Barnier supposed to know?
Barnier is one of the reliable characters in this chite show, as, ironically, is Jacob Rees Mogg.
Irish border problem ceases to exist with a free trade agreement....
Summed up to perfection by an Irish MP:-
Dublin: “You mustn’t put up a border.”
London: “Fair enough: we won’t.”
Dublin: “Neither must we.”
London: “That’s your call.”
Dublin: “Why are you being so difficult?”
I agree, the Irish border problem ceases to exist with a Free Trade agreement. But who is preventing this agreement? I would say it is the UK Brexit negotiators who have a completely fanciful idea of what the EU should reasonably accept in order to achieve such a deal.
How about the movement of people? Ignore that? If so brexit doesn't actually happen in terms of taking back control of UK borders.
A half arsed brexit is not desirable, and a no deal brexit on WTO rules obliges the UK to have border checks in order to participate in WTO arrangements.
Isn't the situation that no one wants a border, but just as the referendum result obliges brexit, brexit obliges a hard border even if nobody wants it?
What might be read between the lines is that tariffs are not important unless they serve as a protectionist measure and non-tariffs are not very effective at increasing the prosperity of developing nations . What the not very clever lady should have said was that most countries use tariffs as a convenient hidden tax on consumers portrayed as a tax on suppliers and left it at that.
Clever one made the free trade deal argument well with his graph. Proved that reducing tariffs increases GDP in line with how much you can reduce the tariffs.
The EU know that the UK's ability to make free trade agreements outside the EU is seen as a pre-requisite to a successful Brexit. The EU knows it and will move heaven and earth to prevent it. Our negotiating team doesn't know how to react because it should have given its own pre-conditions of a free trade deal or no deal. The EU states would then have had a choice to make.
For the morons like me who think trade will not collapse and the GDP fall as a result of Brexit, I've already provided the facts to counter Project Fear. The absence of PRODUCTIVITY GROWTH is the reason for the flatlining in GDP, not the Brexit vote. GDP is 20% below what it should be had the growth prior to 2009 continued in a straight line. The worst Project Fear projection is 7.9% over 20? 30? years so what we have experienced since 2009 is three times worse than the worse Brexit projection and spread over twice the period.
Solve productivity, and Brexit is a non-event. In my view, Brexit is more likely to deliver a more dynamic forward looking UK than floating along on the coat tails of the EU as it falls apart.
Must admit, had I known the EU were going to issue the Package Holiday Directive I would have voted Remain.
Brilliant idea. Means if my holiday operator is Spanish I have to claim though the Spanish Courts even if I booked it from an agent in Bromley High Street. Hands up anyone whose slashed their wrists trying to make a civil claim through Spanish Court system.
Give it a while, but it will happen, radio adverts for ambulance chasers getting your compensation from a Greek holiday operator, or claims experts fluent in Latvian.
Not only massive increase in business for back street litigation cowboys, linguists and hike in liability insurance for operators, it will mean less consumer choice from legitimate operators as they restrict which hoteliers and carriers they recommend.
Nor do you don't have to be an EU citizen for consumers to benefit from it anyway. Firms outside the EU just set up a presence in an EU country, pretend that's where they are established, and continue to sell them from anywhere, a la Amazon etc.
Just a regulatory hurdle increasing costs and solving a problem no one ever worried about until they were told to worry. That's what I like about the EU, regulation for the sake of regulation and keeping the Commission relevant. and sod the unintended consequences.
@Southbank . Same old same old. You are maintaining in essence that the state of the country is because citizens fail to engage with politicians, who are as a result useless, because of EU membership. What a load of old tosh. Again.
While I am to some extent insulated from the situation in the U.K., my family are not. So I will again mention my main concerns that could be addressed by the political situation. One, the NHS. it needs fixing. It is entirely within the national political gift to fix it. If it needs more money, we will have to cough up, right? Nobody in "the EU" is stopping us. Indeed several of them spend more, and have better outcomes.
Ditto, elderly care. As I found out in quite shocking detail in he last twelve months.
It was Britain who decided that privatizing utilities was a good idea. It was Britian which persuaded the EC that it is a great idea which should be adopted across Europe. If you voted for Thatcher or Major, you voted for this. You made your bed. You can lie in it.
In earlier posts you have conceded that many of the Brexit politicians are a rabble. However again you have not faced up to your decision. This rabble ( do I have to name them again?) has a political vision for the U.K. which is of a hard right agenda. Very hard right indeed. You voted for them. You will put into power Johnson, Gove, the Cartoon Aristocrat, etc. or Corbyn. You made your bed. You can lie in it.
In short, it's the old story. Britons voting for the party which cuts their direct taxes, helps them to all become supposed property magnates, and then being surprised when public services fall apart. And then, goaded by the same rabble, deciding that it's all the fault of some foreigners. Absolutely bloody pathetic.
@Dippenhall. Re the "facts" about GDP. If productivity is the driver, can you kindly explain to me why in the two years or so before the referendum, U.K. GDP growth was trending along the same path as the rest of the EU, but lurched downwards about half a year after the vote, while the EU Ticked upwards. I never underestimate your grasp of data, but I will be interested to see how you argue "productivity" as the only significant factor in what is a de-coupling in the last 18 months.
Right, my flight is boarding. Last week the German coast, tonight the Bulgarian Black Sea. Seamless, hassle free. One Europe. Love it. So long as I land in time for the match....
Seamless.
The connection between Brexit and any positive changes in British society comes largely through political renewal and a sense of the possibility of change.
There is currently deep and widespread cynicism about politics and politicians, and a lack of belief in even the possibility of significant change. If Brexit is denied these sentiments will deepen and make the kind of changes you desire even less likely.
Politics is more important than economics, not because economics is unimportant-in fact it is vital, but because without political change there will be no economic progress.
This government couldn’t negotiate a fuck in a brothel.
There is no financial, judicial, political, cultural, social, environmental or psychological upside.
Maybe everybody should wear orange robes and sing 'Hare Krishna' up and down Westminster to improve the situation.
As a reminder (because the referendum was a long time ago), this was when:
- David Cameron was Prime Minister and hadn't yet quit his job, left the House and scuttled off
- George Osborne was Chancellor and hadn't been replaced, left the House and settled into a job as a newspaper editor, from where he was able to criticise the Government (and former colleagues) as often as he wanted
- the Conservatives had a majority, before the new leader spunked it away
- Gove and Johnson were still on speaking terms
- we had a Foreign Secretary that people trusted in Philip Hammond (and his colleagues in the Tory party still spoke to him)
- the Defence Secretary (Michael Fallon) hadn't resigned for groping people
- the Home Secretary hadn't appointed a replacement Home Secretary who was both incompetent and had to resign, but was also able to show many failings were those of her predecessor - the new Prime Minister
- the Government hadn't bribed racists and misogynists with £1bn
- and the Government hadn't spent two years failing to agree what it was they had been asked to do, and therefore hadn't agreed a starting point for negotiations that are about to finish
Is that the background that leads us towards the sunny uplands of unfettered and admiration for our political leaders?
Moving on, The Package Travel Directive itself dates back decades and gave rise to the 1992 Regulations implementing them domestically. That's over 25 years ago. They've been updated recently to reflect the changes in consumer behaviour and the growth of the internet. Essentially, and our government says this itself, they've been very successful in providing financial security to holiday makers and made providers up their game in treating their clients fairly.
During that 25+ years 100's millions of holidays have been taken by UK consumers and many, many more 100's millions by our fellow EU citizens. Who've all benefited from the same increased levels of financial security of their holiday and better rights to information and redress before and after they travel. For example, how often do you hear of tour operators going bust leaving 1000's of clients with nothing and no holiday these days? You don't any more because they are required to ensure client's funds are secure. But you used to. I know from personal experience the effects of companies going bust leaving nothing for their clients.
You might consider making companies look after their client's money properly a "regulatory hurdle increasing costs and solving a problem no one ever worried about... " but I'd suggest you'd be in a slim minority. Maybe I'm wrong though as that's just my opinion.
Anyway, somehow we've managed, after what...a billion plus(?)...holidays taken across the time period the Directive has been in, without seeing any, "massive increase in business for back street litigation cowboys or linguists". Nor is there any significant market in "ambulance chasers...or claims experts fluent in Latvian." as far as I can tell. If this industry of dodgy claims management operators is coming as you state, it's taking its flipping time arriving isn't it? 1992 I'd remind you.
It might come...but only outside the EU when potentially it will be hugely more difficult to pursue the claim against your imaginary Greek holiday operator. Inside, we're able to not only fall back on the consistent protections across the whole EU we currently enjoy, but also seek assistance in pursuing that redress across borders. You're actually arguing in favour of the EU.
The (EU funded) UK European Consumer Centre is part of a network of agencies that provide free assistance to consumers right across the EU. If you have a problem with your Spanish tour operator (in the unlikely event it wasn't booked and paid for through a UK company) they will liaise, free of charge to you, with their colleagues in the Spanish European Consumer Centre who will assist you and mediate in your claim against the Spanish company. And vice versa of course. What are the chances of that arrangement continuing post Brexit do you think? I'd say slim.
And if that fails or you fancy going it alone you can still pursue your Spanish supplier through a European Payment Order. Or if that's defended you still have the option of the European Small Claims Procedure. https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/sell-abroad/resolving-disputes/small-claims/index_en.htm
So all in all, far from a situation requiring "wrist slashing" through the Spanish small claims courts, being in the EU not only provides better clarity and consistency of law for businesses but better outcomes and increased support for consumers.
Others can make their own mind up whether ensuring your tour operator has a legal duty to inform you your hotel is undergoing major renovation and offer you an alternative or compensation before you go is, "regulation for the sake of regulation and keeping the Commission relevant" or a reasonable and fair thing to do.
Don’t need regulations to find out if hotel is bring renovated or is going to be crap, log into Trip Advisor and do your own research.
People are now encouraged by authority to think they have no personal responsibility to protect themselves, they can be as dumb as they choose and the State will make sure laws exist for nanny to sort things out and run their life.
The argument regarding a nanny state protecting people who really ought to stand on their own two feet, when extended leads to an armed population.
Do some research and you might find that a trip to violent London means you ought to arm yourself with an AK 47.