Whether you like it or not, those who vote to Leave need to come to terms with the fact the entire campaign was based on false statements and if it was run under normal election rules several of the most prominent campaigners would have been hauled in front of a judge for comments and statements made as part of an official campaign. MP's seats have been re-run for less. Those who orchestrated the campaign openly admitted that had normal election rules applied they would not have won the vote as polling showed false statements such as the 350m figure, the immigration levels and Turkey imminently joining the EU were key factors for the majority of those who voted Leave.
I apologise as I did generalise that all Brexiters were happy to be lied to. I know for one you are not.
Simply for balance; didnt Osborne state that if the leavers won the referendum, the financial position would be so dire that an immediate austrity budget would need to be put in place. Didnt this lie lead to his downfall....just asking
Wasn't really a lie; the UK economy has been much weaker than where it was the day before the referendum. The number of people dying due to poverty related reasons has not been this high in modern British history.
I know Brexiters like to bang on about how the Remain campaign lied as much as the Leave campaign but this simply isn't true. Every claim that the Leave campaign made to win over the sizeable majority of Remainers over to their sorry, pathetic cause was a lie. The same cannot be said of vice versa.
But the "austerity budget" wasnt implemented and Osborne wasnt retained as Chancellor. They are facts.
I agree with you Peter. One of the worst aspects of the referendum for committed Europhiles like me was that we were being 'represented' by Cameron and Osborne. The latter went way over the top, because he is an unscrupulous politician. He damaged the Remain argument, and was partly responsible for the scepticism about "facts".
More reasonable people understood that of course you cannot throw a large economy, growing at 2%, into full reverse in one quarter based on a vote alone. The only practical reason for a reverse would be a gradual loss of business and consumer confidence. It gives me no pleasure whatsoever (because most of my savings and future pension are UK based) to observe that this has now come to pass. I think we will be lucky if we see GDP growth this year topping 1.0%, while nearly all EU countries are seeing GDP improvements. Here in CZ we are seeing an unprecedented screaming shortage of people at every level. Every other shop window has a notice saying "we are looking for..".
What a mess.
And the same went for the leave campaign under Gove and Boris and I voted leave and would still vote leave now!
At least we are still gaining growth (which is more than the recession we faced under the Brown years) but I accept their is going to be a lot of uncertainty with leaving the EU. Having said that their is talk of interest rates rising which which means more spending money for savers.
Out of interest and a little off topic, what difference has it been for CZ since the split between Slovakia and CZ?
And less for anyone with a mortgage or loan including business.
Savers are not noted for spending. The clues in the word.
Whether you like it or not, those who vote to Leave need to come to terms with the fact the entire campaign was based on false statements and if it was run under normal election rules several of the most prominent campaigners would have been hauled in front of a judge for comments and statements made as part of an official campaign. MP's seats have been re-run for less. Those who orchestrated the campaign openly admitted that had normal election rules applied they would not have won the vote as polling showed false statements such as the 350m figure, the immigration levels and Turkey imminently joining the EU were key factors for the majority of those who voted Leave.
I apologise as I did generalise that all Brexiters were happy to be lied to. I know for one you are not.
Simply for balance; didnt Osborne state that if the leavers won the referendum, the financial position would be so dire that an immediate austrity budget would need to be put in place. Didnt this lie lead to his downfall....just asking
Wasn't really a lie; the UK economy has been much weaker than where it was the day before the referendum. The number of people dying due to poverty related reasons has not been this high in modern British history.
I know Brexiters like to bang on about how the Remain campaign lied as much as the Leave campaign but this simply isn't true. Every claim that the Leave campaign made to win over the sizeable majority of Remainers over to their sorry, pathetic cause was a lie. The same cannot be said of vice versa.
But the "austerity budget" wasnt implemented and Osborne wasnt retained as Chancellor. They are facts.
I agree with you Peter. One of the worst aspects of the referendum for committed Europhiles like me was that we were being 'represented' by Cameron and Osborne. The latter went way over the top, because he is an unscrupulous politician. He damaged the Remain argument, and was partly responsible for the scepticism about "facts".
More reasonable people understood that of course you cannot throw a large economy, growing at 2%, into full reverse in one quarter based on a vote alone. The only practical reason for a reverse would be a gradual loss of business and consumer confidence. It gives me no pleasure whatsoever (because most of my savings and future pension are UK based) to observe that this has now come to pass. I think we will be lucky if we see GDP growth this year topping 1.0%, while nearly all EU countries are seeing GDP improvements. Here in CZ we are seeing an unprecedented screaming shortage of people at every level. Every other shop window has a notice saying "we are looking for..".
What a mess.
And the same went for the leave campaign under Gove and Boris and I voted leave and would still vote leave now!
At least we are still gaining growth (which is more than the recession we faced under the Brown years) but I accept their is going to be a lot of uncertainty with leaving the EU. Having said that their is talk of interest rates rising which which means more spending money for savers.
Out of interest and a little off topic, what difference has it been for CZ since the split between Slovakia and CZ?
Ooof that is not an easy one to keep short. Well firstly it was peaceful, and has remained so. Many Slovaks work in CZ and are accepted as virtually the same nationality. In fact we fear the next Czech PM, elections next weekend, will be the Slovak oligarch, Andrej Babis. Most Czechs would say that the split was good, because they got shot of a land with a large peasant and Romany contingent. But then I like to piss them off by pointing out that since 2004 Slovakia has been growing twice as fast as CZ. In business I saw that the big companies prioritised Poland because it is a much bigger market, and I think they would have been much more positive about one Czechoslovakia. Personally, I think it would have been better to stay together with a federal German style approach: Bohemian, Moravian and Slovak state parliaments giving them their sense of identity (Moravia is east of Prague and bordering Slovakia) . I am in a minority, but Vaclav Havel had that view too so that's good enough for me.
Oh and by the way, there was no referendum, and opinion polls indicated a preference to Remain Together...
Whether you like it or not, those who vote to Leave need to come to terms with the fact the entire campaign was based on false statements and if it was run under normal election rules several of the most prominent campaigners would have been hauled in front of a judge for comments and statements made as part of an official campaign. MP's seats have been re-run for less. Those who orchestrated the campaign openly admitted that had normal election rules applied they would not have won the vote as polling showed false statements such as the 350m figure, the immigration levels and Turkey imminently joining the EU were key factors for the majority of those who voted Leave.
I apologise as I did generalise that all Brexiters were happy to be lied to. I know for one you are not.
Simply for balance; didnt Osborne state that if the leavers won the referendum, the financial position would be so dire that an immediate austrity budget would need to be put in place. Didnt this lie lead to his downfall....just asking
Wasn't really a lie; the UK economy has been much weaker than where it was the day before the referendum. The number of people dying due to poverty related reasons has not been this high in modern British history.
I know Brexiters like to bang on about how the Remain campaign lied as much as the Leave campaign but this simply isn't true. Every claim that the Leave campaign made to win over the sizeable majority of Remainers over to their sorry, pathetic cause was a lie. The same cannot be said of vice versa.
But the "austerity budget" wasnt implemented and Osborne wasnt retained as Chancellor. They are facts.
I agree with you Peter. One of the worst aspects of the referendum for committed Europhiles like me was that we were being 'represented' by Cameron and Osborne. The latter went way over the top, because he is an unscrupulous politician. He damaged the Remain argument, and was partly responsible for the scepticism about "facts".
More reasonable people understood that of course you cannot throw a large economy, growing at 2%, into full reverse in one quarter based on a vote alone. The only practical reason for a reverse would be a gradual loss of business and consumer confidence. It gives me no pleasure whatsoever (because most of my savings and future pension are UK based) to observe that this has now come to pass. I think we will be lucky if we see GDP growth this year topping 1.0%, while nearly all EU countries are seeing GDP improvements. Here in CZ we are seeing an unprecedented screaming shortage of people at every level. Every other shop window has a notice saying "we are looking for..".
What a mess.
And the same went for the leave campaign under Gove and Boris and I voted leave and would still vote leave now!
At least we are still gaining growth (which is more than the recession we faced under the Brown years) but I accept their is going to be a lot of uncertainty with leaving the EU. Having said that their is talk of interest rates rising which which means more spending money for savers.
Out of interest and a little off topic, what difference has it been for CZ since the split between Slovakia and CZ?
Are we ignoring the double dip recession under Osborne now then?
Cancel Brexit because we can't control a border ? Move the border into the sea and treat the island as an island ? Stay in the customs union in case someone opens fire at a customs post?
It's unfortunate as you said, that the GFA is breaking down for other reasons, but do the people of NI or ROI really want a return to violence over this? There are probably factions that do, but these guys will resort to violence with any excuse. Should we appease them ?
This issue has to be dealt with in as practical way as possible (probably no plan will be deemed ideal for all parties involved) - but we can't make it a deal breaker, we have to get on with it.
But the leading Brexiteer politicians told us it would be simple to solve as no one wants a hard border.
Seems that every claim made by Brexiteers is unravelling and now we should just make the best of it.
Whether you like it or not, those who vote to Leave need to come to terms with the fact the entire campaign was based on false statements and if it was run under normal election rules several of the most prominent campaigners would have been hauled in front of a judge for comments and statements made as part of an official campaign. MP's seats have been re-run for less. Those who orchestrated the campaign openly admitted that had normal election rules applied they would not have won the vote as polling showed false statements such as the 350m figure, the immigration levels and Turkey imminently joining the EU were key factors for the majority of those who voted Leave.
I apologise as I did generalise that all Brexiters were happy to be lied to. I know for one you are not.
Simply for balance; didnt Osborne state that if the leavers won the referendum, the financial position would be so dire that an immediate austrity budget would need to be put in place. Didnt this lie lead to his downfall....just asking
Wasn't really a lie; the UK economy has been much weaker than where it was the day before the referendum. The number of people dying due to poverty related reasons has not been this high in modern British history.
I know Brexiters like to bang on about how the Remain campaign lied as much as the Leave campaign but this simply isn't true. Every claim that the Leave campaign made to win over the sizeable majority of Remainers over to their sorry, pathetic cause was a lie. The same cannot be said of vice versa.
But the "austerity budget" wasnt implemented and Osborne wasnt retained as Chancellor. They are facts.
I agree with you Peter. One of the worst aspects of the referendum for committed Europhiles like me was that we were being 'represented' by Cameron and Osborne. The latter went way over the top, because he is an unscrupulous politician. He damaged the Remain argument, and was partly responsible for the scepticism about "facts".
More reasonable people understood that of course you cannot throw a large economy, growing at 2%, into full reverse in one quarter based on a vote alone. The only practical reason for a reverse would be a gradual loss of business and consumer confidence. It gives me no pleasure whatsoever (because most of my savings and future pension are UK based) to observe that this has now come to pass. I think we will be lucky if we see GDP growth this year topping 1.0%, while nearly all EU countries are seeing GDP improvements. Here in CZ we are seeing an unprecedented screaming shortage of people at every level. Every other shop window has a notice saying "we are looking for..".
Whether you like it or not, those who vote to Leave need to come to terms with the fact the entire campaign was based on false statements and if it was run under normal election rules several of the most prominent campaigners would have been hauled in front of a judge for comments and statements made as part of an official campaign. MP's seats have been re-run for less. Those who orchestrated the campaign openly admitted that had normal election rules applied they would not have won the vote as polling showed false statements such as the 350m figure, the immigration levels and Turkey imminently joining the EU were key factors for the majority of those who voted Leave.
I apologise as I did generalise that all Brexiters were happy to be lied to. I know for one you are not.
Simply for balance; didnt Osborne state that if the leavers won the referendum, the financial position would be so dire that an immediate austrity budget would need to be put in place. Didnt this lie lead to his downfall....just asking
Wasn't really a lie; the UK economy has been much weaker than where it was the day before the referendum. The number of people dying due to poverty related reasons has not been this high in modern British history.
I know Brexiters like to bang on about how the Remain campaign lied as much as the Leave campaign but this simply isn't true. Every claim that the Leave campaign made to win over the sizeable majority of Remainers over to their sorry, pathetic cause was a lie. The same cannot be said of vice versa.
But the "austerity budget" wasnt implemented and Osborne wasnt retained as Chancellor. They are facts.
I agree with you Peter. One of the worst aspects of the referendum for committed Europhiles like me was that we were being 'represented' by Cameron and Osborne. The latter went way over the top, because he is an unscrupulous politician. He damaged the Remain argument, and was partly responsible for the scepticism about "facts".
More reasonable people understood that of course you cannot throw a large economy, growing at 2%, into full reverse in one quarter based on a vote alone. The only practical reason for a reverse would be a gradual loss of business and consumer confidence. It gives me no pleasure whatsoever (because most of my savings and future pension are UK based) to observe that this has now come to pass. I think we will be lucky if we see GDP growth this year topping 1.0%, while nearly all EU countries are seeing GDP improvements. Here in CZ we are seeing an unprecedented screaming shortage of people at every level. Every other shop window has a notice saying "we are looking for..".
No, not in the case of the Czech Republic. You won't find a single politician here who suggests that is what has happened, because the figures don't bear it out.
There is one area where the problem exists: healthcare. My niece is a junior hospital doctor. She works 3 hours drive away in eastern Germany because she is paid three times as much net.
But that is a specific exceptional sector case. One of the things I learnt only slowly about the Czechs is that they do not like to move. They are quite unlike the Poles in this regard. So that has created a problem of pockets of relatively high unemployment in the old industrial areas. It has been very difficult to retrain these older workers, before they can even be persuaded to move.
The number of Czechs living in the UK is only 45,000. Figures for the other EU countries I can't lay my hands on - if you find something, be careful that the figures cover post accession period as a lot of "Czechs" living in France for example cleared out under the Communist regime and have raised families. Czechs are not particularly good at learning foreign languages, and English is the 1st choice for the younger generation.
So the shortage I am living with (it affects my business, and I have never seen anything like this), is the result of a sudden upturn in the economy after a very long recession post 2008. This is evident at management level, as well as in supermarkets or car factories. Clients want a brand manager with 5 years experience. Problem is that for 5 years from 2008 they were cutting, cutting cutting. The new generation of such managers simply isn't there, nobody developed them.
Now in bigger economies, the answer is immigration. But the Czechs can't easily do that, partly because of the language per se, and partly because if you are, say, Bulgarian and ready to move, you will get a better deal in Germany or the UK. The Czech Republic isn't attractive to them. One of the charts in your link shows that only 29,600 immigrated into CZ in 2015. The current option being debated is to give emergency visas to up to 100,000 Ukrainians. Even this isn't easy because Ukrainians have a bad rap among Czechs, absolutely not my experience, but up to now a lot of them are illegals on building sites, (happening next door to me right now), which are not usually the best a country has to offer.
I think your point is valid for certain other EU countries, I know that Bulgaria is frustrated by the loss of many of its best and brightest, although that started in 1990, one of my best buddies (he who helped get us Kishishev) left for Toronto, has built a great life for himself, and ain't going back. Although Kishi is back, owning two restaurants...
Interesting time for Austria. Austrians are voting in a general election with the Far Right expected to increase it's influence. Immigration has been a dominant issue in the campaign. The press are reporting, ''The election comes amid anxiety in Europe over the huge influx of undocumented migrants and refugees in 2015, which fuelled an electoral breakthrough by the far right in neighbouring Germany last month.''
AfD got about 13% of the German vote which is way more alarming that the UKIP flash in the UK's pan. Merkel (whose losses look far worse than May's) said she would listen to AfD's (anti-Islam and migration) concerns to try to win them back. Having right wing nationalists in the nucleus of the EU must be a concern for the whole of Europe - something unthinkable even a decade ago.
Interesting time for Austria. Austrians are voting in a general election with the Far Right expected to increase it's influence. Immigration has been a dominant issue in the campaign. The press are reporting, ''The election comes amid anxiety in Europe over the huge influx of undocumented migrants and refugees in 2015, which fuelled an electoral breakthrough by the far right in neighbouring Germany last month.''
AfD got about 13% of the German vote which is way more alarming that the UKIP flash in the UK's pan. Merkel (whose losses look far worse than May's) said she would listen to AfD's (anti-Islam and migration) concerns to try to win them back. Having right wing nationalists in the nucleus of the EU must be a concern for the whole of Europe - something unthinkable even a decade ago.
We are watching this carefully in CZ too, not least because CZ was once part of the same country. However the latest projections show a result not as bad as I feared. The report also reminds us that in fact Austria has been here before, twice. It's a funny country. Vienna is a liberal, if rather smug place, which welcomed refugees escaping the Communist regimes before 1989, and the left wing SPO have increased their vote there. The far right nationalists have tended to be based in Carinthia. We were there on holiday a couple of weeks after the Brexit ref. and I feared the worst in terms of discussions with locals. But in fact I was met only with puzzlement and then sympathy re the Brexit vote. When I later mentioned that I hadn't met any Far Right supporters to a Swiss friend who knows the country well, he snorted and said "that's because you weren't high enough up the mountain".
It will for sure be difficult as they may need to be part of a coalition, but I am not sure I can agree that this and the AfD (concentrated in the pissed off East) are much worse than the UKIP result because in terms of share of vote, didn't UKIP get about 15%?
What is true is that we cannot ignore the fact that such parties get that number of votes.
Whether you like it or not, those who vote to Leave need to come to terms with the fact the entire campaign was based on false statements and if it was run under normal election rules several of the most prominent campaigners would have been hauled in front of a judge for comments and statements made as part of an official campaign. MP's seats have been re-run for less. Those who orchestrated the campaign openly admitted that had normal election rules applied they would not have won the vote as polling showed false statements such as the 350m figure, the immigration levels and Turkey imminently joining the EU were key factors for the majority of those who voted Leave.
I apologise as I did generalise that all Brexiters were happy to be lied to. I know for one you are not.
Simply for balance; didnt Osborne state that if the leavers won the referendum, the financial position would be so dire that an immediate austrity budget would need to be put in place. Didnt this lie lead to his downfall....just asking
Wasn't really a lie; the UK economy has been much weaker than where it was the day before the referendum. The number of people dying due to poverty related reasons has not been this high in modern British history.
I know Brexiters like to bang on about how the Remain campaign lied as much as the Leave campaign but this simply isn't true. Every claim that the Leave campaign made to win over the sizeable majority of Remainers over to their sorry, pathetic cause was a lie. The same cannot be said of vice versa.
But the "austerity budget" wasnt implemented and Osborne wasnt retained as Chancellor. They are facts.
I also seem to recall stories of an immediate recession and thousands of immediate job losses, tax rises, no more Horizon 2020 funding. The same can't be said vice versa eh?
That was not the view of most serious economists or economically literate commentators, for reasons I described just before you posted.
Maybe not PA & obviously what you say is bang on about the reversal but it was still widely reported by Osborne and others that this would be the case. Some idiots would believe this, just like other idiots believed we would plough 350m a week into the NHS. I was merely addressing the point that little fishy made about all the lies coming from one side.
The points I made were not predictions, they were things we were told would happen by some, but did not. Therefore they were lying. Just that some are to set in their own views to see this.
As for the NHS & struggling transport, with no more EU Membership payments, we'll plough about 165mil a week into it
Your polarising yourself with this lot mate , they will just ask you ridiculous questions (after trolling) for answers they didn't know pre trolling. One berk keeps highlighting my grammar mistakes and then says the word methinks.
If that's directed at me chippy then I suggest your spelling, grammar and vocabulary all need attention ;0)
Of course it is.. But your the only berk that picks it up.. And your worse than anyone else... So define spirit for me please.
Oh please.
Whats up mate.. Dont like a dose of your own medicine... I cut a deal with you... Stop trolling me around this site and asking me inane questions and i will stop after youve bored me on several posts.
Far left/far right is a worrying trend but I feel that any party too far to one side has shelf life. They're very good at preying on fear etc, but would struggle to get anything through in a practical sense in most democratic countries
I would still vote remain now if asked again. But these hypotheticals are irrelevant now. We need to get on with it and ultimately my preference is to get on with no deal. Reason being, we're not going to negotiate a deal that is satisfactory to the many different stances both here and in the EU, let's not kid ourselves
Unfortunately we just need to do it and pick up the pieces - we've led ourselves here and now we have to do it
Interesting time for Austria. Austrians are voting in a general election with the Far Right expected to increase it's influence. Immigration has been a dominant issue in the campaign. The press are reporting, ''The election comes amid anxiety in Europe over the huge influx of undocumented migrants and refugees in 2015, which fuelled an electoral breakthrough by the far right in neighbouring Germany last month.''
AfD got about 13% of the German vote which is way more alarming that the UKIP flash in the UK's pan. Merkel (whose losses look far worse than May's) said she would listen to AfD's (anti-Islam and migration) concerns to try to win them back. Having right wing nationalists in the nucleus of the EU must be a concern for the whole of Europe - something unthinkable even a decade ago.
We are watching this carefully in CZ too, not least because CZ was once part of the same country. However the latest projections show a result not as bad as I feared. The report also reminds us that in fact Austria has been here before, twice. It's a funny country. Vienna is a liberal, if rather smug place, which welcomed refugees escaping the Communist regimes before 1989, and the left wing SPO have increased their vote there. The far right nationalists have tended to be based in Carinthia. We were there on holiday a couple of weeks after the Brexit ref. and I feared the worst in terms of discussions with locals. But in fact I was met only with puzzlement and then sympathy re the Brexit vote. When I later mentioned that I hadn't met any Far Right supporters to a Swiss friend who knows the country well, he snorted and said "that's because you weren't high enough up the mountain".
It will for sure be difficult as they may need to be part of a coalition, but I am not sure I can agree that this and the AfD (concentrated in the pissed off East) are much worse than the UKIP result because in terms of share of vote, didn't UKIP get about 15%?
What is true is that we cannot ignore the fact that such parties get that number of votes.
Edit: since I posted, the latest projections broadcast by Czech TV, show the far right edging ahead of the Soc. Dems into 2nd place, and with a vote share equalling that which they got in 1999. Grim, but as I said, Austria has been here before, and at that time there was not the same immigrant wave Austria experienced in 2015.
Whether you like it or not, those who vote to Leave need to come to terms with the fact the entire campaign was based on false statements and if it was run under normal election rules several of the most prominent campaigners would have been hauled in front of a judge for comments and statements made as part of an official campaign. MP's seats have been re-run for less. Those who orchestrated the campaign openly admitted that had normal election rules applied they would not have won the vote as polling showed false statements such as the 350m figure, the immigration levels and Turkey imminently joining the EU were key factors for the majority of those who voted Leave.
I apologise as I did generalise that all Brexiters were happy to be lied to. I know for one you are not.
Simply for balance; didnt Osborne state that if the leavers won the referendum, the financial position would be so dire that an immediate austrity budget would need to be put in place. Didnt this lie lead to his downfall....just asking
Wasn't really a lie; the UK economy has been much weaker than where it was the day before the referendum. The number of people dying due to poverty related reasons has not been this high in modern British history.
I know Brexiters like to bang on about how the Remain campaign lied as much as the Leave campaign but this simply isn't true. Every claim that the Leave campaign made to win over the sizeable majority of Remainers over to their sorry, pathetic cause was a lie. The same cannot be said of vice versa.
But the "austerity budget" wasnt implemented and Osborne wasnt retained as Chancellor. They are facts.
I also seem to recall stories of an immediate recession and thousands of immediate job losses, tax rises, no more Horizon 2020 funding. The same can't be said vice versa eh?
That was not the view of most serious economists or economically literate commentators, for reasons I described just before you posted.
Maybe not PA & obviously what you say is bang on about the reversal but it was still widely reported by Osborne and others that this would be the case. Some idiots would believe this, just like other idiots believed we would plough 350m a week into the NHS. I was merely addressing the point that little fishy made about all the lies coming from one side.
The points I made were not predictions, they were things we were told would happen by some, but did not. Therefore they were lying. Just that some are to set in their own views to see this.
As for the NHS & struggling transport, with no more EU Membership payments, we'll plough about 165mil a week into it
Your polarising yourself with this lot mate , they will just ask you ridiculous questions (after trolling) for answers they didn't know pre trolling. One berk keeps highlighting my grammar mistakes and then says the word methinks.
If that's directed at me chippy then I suggest your spelling, grammar and vocabulary all need attention ;0)
Of course it is.. But your the only berk that picks it up.. And your worse than anyone else... So define spirit for me please.
Oh please.
Whats up mate.. Dont like a dose of your own medicine... I cut a deal with you... Stop trolling me around this site and asking me inane questions and i will stop after youve bored me on several posts.
You really are a funny character. I have no fricking idea what you are going on about. Me troll you !!! Don't make me laugh. Read back through the thread.
If you're going on about your spelling Patriortic I actually never even noticed it as I was so engrossed in the drivel you write. I never mentioned it until you said I was correcting your grammar. I let go the fact you derided my use of the word "methinks" as if it's not correct. I let that go too because I suspect you don't have a vocabulary enough to understand it.
Far left/far right is a worrying trend but I feel that any party too far to one side has shelf life. They're very good at preying on fear etc, but would struggle to get anything through in a practical sense in most democratic countries
I would still vote remain now if asked again. But these hypotheticals are irrelevant now. We need to get on with it and ultimately my preference is to get on with no deal. Reason being, we're not going to negotiate a deal that is satisfactory to the many different stances both here and in the EU, let's not kid ourselves
Unfortunately we just need to do it and pick up the pieces - we've led ourselves here and now we have to do it
I can understand why a reasonable person like you would come to that conclusion but I would urge you to make sure that you have your head around "No deal" sufficiently before coming to that conclusion. Unfortunately it means listening to people who can explain pretty esoteric matters, to balance out the siren voices of people like John Redwood - who was on the Today programme just now, yet again - airily claiming that we will be just fine. Last week they had a senior civil servant expert in trade, who explained that for example the WTO rules only really cover manufacturing trade, whereas most of our trade nowadays is in services. Such arguments don't come across as easily on the radio as "we'll be fine" or "we need to put a tiger in our tank " (FFS) but if we don't get to grips with them, people like Redwood will get what they want, which is to re-shape Britain as a low cost low tax economy which will further worsen the lives of the vast majority of Lifers.
If any pro - Brexiter wants to put a reasoned educated case for what "no-deal" looks like and why it will be "fine", it ought to be possible to debate that in an adult way.
Far left/far right is a worrying trend but I feel that any party too far to one side has shelf life. They're very good at preying on fear etc, but would struggle to get anything through in a practical sense in most democratic countries
I would still vote remain now if asked again. But these hypotheticals are irrelevant now. We need to get on with it and ultimately my preference is to get on with no deal. Reason being, we're not going to negotiate a deal that is satisfactory to the many different stances both here and in the EU, let's not kid ourselves
Unfortunately we just need to do it and pick up the pieces - we've led ourselves here and now we have to do it
I can understand why a reasonable person like you would come to that conclusion but I would urge you to make sure that you have your head around "No deal" sufficiently before coming to that conclusion. Unfortunately it means listening to people who can explain pretty esoteric matters, to balance out the siren voices of people like John Redwood - who was on the Today programme just now, yet again - airily claiming that we will be just fine. Last week they had a senior civil servant expert in trade, who explained that for example the WTO rules only really cover manufacturing trade, whereas most of our trade nowadays is in services. Such arguments don't come across as easily on the radio as "we'll be fine" or "we need to put a tiger in our tank " (FFS) but if we don't get to grips with them, people like Redwood will get what they want, which is to re-shape Britain as a low cost low tax economy which will further worsen the lives of the vast majority of Lifers.
If any pro - Brexiter wants to put a reasoned educated case for what "no-deal" looks like and why it will be "fine", it ought to be possible to debate that in an adult way.
I say it reluctantly Prague because I know it's probably going to impact a lot of people very badly, but I feel the only way forward now is to commit and deal with the aftermath. Unless the whole thing gets stopped, I cannnot see how any negotiation would be reached
I'm very much of the mind if it's going to be bloody and brutal, we need to just get on with it so we can deal with the consequences
I can understand the fuck 'em attitude to 'no deal'. But in reality isn't it just a negotiating stance, the nuclear option which would do us as much harm as good, and therefore inconceivable?
The consequences of a no deal / walk away scenario would be catastrophic. An abrupt end to our membership would hit our business and economy like a ton of bricks. No one would know how to proceed in either import or export. WTO rules worked out and applied accross the board with hardly anyone knowing how. Documentation ? What tariffs apply and how to apply them. There are hundreds of cross Europe agreements and cooperations including funding that would suddenly cease. The list of disasters is endless. The ports would be gridlocked and we've already heard that flights to Europe might well be grounded. Reciprocity of healthcare instantly gone. I could go on and on.
Even this government recognise that in order to make things work there will need to be a period of two years or more of transition after March 2019. Can you just contemplate for a moment the chaos should the likes of Redwood, Tiger Johnson, Gove and Farage get their way.
Brexit in my opinion is going to be so bad for this island but to walk away without any ducks in a row would be suicidal.
The consequences of a no deal / walk away scenario would be catastrophic. An abrupt end to our membership would hit our business and economy like a ton of bricks. No one would know how to proceed in either import or export. WTO rules worked out and applied accross the board with hardly anyone knowing how. Documentation ? What tariffs apply and how to apply them. There are hundreds of cross Europe agreements and cooperations including funding that would suddenly cease. The list of disasters is endless. The ports would be gridlocked and we've already heard that flights to Europe might well be grounded. Reciprocity of healthcare instantly gone. I could go on and on.
Even this government recognise that in order to make things work there will need to be a period of two years or more of transition after March 2019. Can you just contemplate for a moment the chaos should the likes of Redwood, Tiger Johnson, Gove and Farage get their way.
Brexit in my opinion is going to be so bad for this island but to walk away without any ducks in a row would be suicidal.
Not forgetting all those fields full of cars in Germany and heaps of fruit and veg piled up in France/Spain.
Don't worry @cabbles St Theresa is flying out to Brussels today to sort things out.
Keir Starmer was on the Robert Peston programme yesterday and gave a very impressive outline of how he would handle things. Especially so given the shit hand Corbyn has given him to deal with. More and more there is a need for a cross party group to handle these negotiations. Only my opinion of course.
The consequences of a no deal / walk away scenario would be catastrophic. An abrupt end to our membership would hit our business and economy like a ton of bricks. No one would know how to proceed in either import or export. WTO rules worked out and applied accross the board with hardly anyone knowing how. Documentation ? What tariffs apply and how to apply them. There are hundreds of cross Europe agreements and cooperations including funding that would suddenly cease. The list of disasters is endless. The ports would be gridlocked and we've already heard that flights to Europe might well be grounded. Reciprocity of healthcare instantly gone. I could go on and on.
Even this government recognise that in order to make things work there will need to be a period of two years or more of transition after March 2019. Can you just contemplate for a moment the chaos should the likes of Redwood, Tiger Johnson, Gove and Farage get their way.
Brexit in my opinion is going to be so bad for this island but to walk away without any ducks in a row would be suicidal.
Not forgetting all those fields full of cars in Germany and heaps of fruit and veg piled up in France/Spain.
Well quite. A crash out of the Union would be catastrophic for the 27 as well. It is worth remembering though that we must import that fruit and veg to feed the nation. We can't grow enough or get in place deals to compensate for a car crash import scenario. You can get by with your old banger for a few months longer while something is sorted out re cars but clogged up channel ports and no Lorries hitting our roads full of that fruit and veg is going to impact the UK much much quicker than it will the 27. That's not to say it won't. It's why this talk of walking away is utter madness.
Of course it is utter madness but it is not 'unlikely' to happen. Nobody can be comforted by saying to themselves 'they couldn't do that, could they?'. They could.
@cabbles and other reasonable people struggling to work out where they stand on a hugely complex political issue.
In such a situation, I apply this test:
1. Which politicians are most strongly pushing a certain position? 2. Do I agree with their positions on most other political issues? 3. If not, why are they pushing this one so hard? What do they plan as a result of winning this particular argument?
The answer to 1) is easy: Johnson, Grayling, Gove, Leadsom, Redwood, Rees-Mogg, Hannan, Jenkin, all UKIP. Plus to a less clear extent Hoey and Stuart on the Labour side.
3) is the tricky one. but I urge everyone to tackle it, rather than giving in, in the hope that all the noise stops. That is exactly why the group in 1 are making the noise.
Prague my first reaction to 3 is that those who want out simply want to bask in the knowledge that the UK is out. However beached whales can bask, but because they're beached they're doomed.
@cabbles and other reasonable people struggling to work out where they stand on a hugely complex political issue.
In such a situation, I apply this test:
1. Which politicians are most strongly pushing a certain position? 2. Do I agree with their positions on most other political issues? 3. If not, why are they pushing this one so hard? What do they plan as a result of winning this particular argument?
The answer to 1) is easy: Johnson, Grayling, Gove, Leadsom, Redwood, Rees-Mogg, Hannan, Jenkin, all UKIP. Plus to a less clear extent Hoey and Stuart on the Labour side.
3) is the tricky one. but I urge everyone to tackle it, rather than giving in, in the hope that all the noise stops. That is exactly why the group in 1 are making the noise.
It's not that I don't want to remain, I still do, it's more, how the hell are we going to get to a suitable compromise in the allotted time frame. As shooters points out, perhaps this is too cavalier given what's at stake. I just cannot see any compromise now. And I lay the blame squarely at the feet of the Tories.
@cabbles and other reasonable people struggling to work out where they stand on a hugely complex political issue.
In such a situation, I apply this test:
1. Which politicians are most strongly pushing a certain position? 2. Do I agree with their positions on most other political issues? 3. If not, why are they pushing this one so hard? What do they plan as a result of winning this particular argument?
The answer to 1) is easy: Johnson, Grayling, Gove, Leadsom, Redwood, Rees-Mogg, Hannan, Jenkin, all UKIP. Plus to a less clear extent Hoey and Stuart on the Labour side.
3) is the tricky one. but I urge everyone to tackle it, rather than giving in, in the hope that all the noise stops. That is exactly why the group in 1 are making the noise.
It's not that I don't want to remain, I still do, it's more, how the hell are we going to get to a suitable compromise in the allotted time frame. As shooters points out, perhaps this is too cavalier given what's at stake. I just cannot see any compromise now. And I lay the blame squarely at the feet of the Tories.
or the uncontrolled immigration under Blair. Or both. But mainly Blair.
@cabbles and other reasonable people struggling to work out where they stand on a hugely complex political issue.
In such a situation, I apply this test:
1. Which politicians are most strongly pushing a certain position? 2. Do I agree with their positions on most other political issues? 3. If not, why are they pushing this one so hard? What do they plan as a result of winning this particular argument?
The answer to 1) is easy: Johnson, Grayling, Gove, Leadsom, Redwood, Rees-Mogg, Hannan, Jenkin, all UKIP. Plus to a less clear extent Hoey and Stuart on the Labour side.
3) is the tricky one. but I urge everyone to tackle it, rather than giving in, in the hope that all the noise stops. That is exactly why the group in 1 are making the noise.
Couldn't agree more Prague. How anyone can imagine that group of turds have anything but self-interest in mind is beyond me. One thing is for sure none of them will be on their uppers even if the worse happens.
Incidentally, going back to one of your earlier posts, how much do you think adopting the Euro has helped Slovakia out perform the Czech Rep in economic terms?
The consequences of a no deal / walk away scenario would be catastrophic. An abrupt end to our membership would hit our business and economy like a ton of bricks. No one would know how to proceed in either import or export. WTO rules worked out and applied accross the board with hardly anyone knowing how. Documentation ? What tariffs apply and how to apply them. There are hundreds of cross Europe agreements and cooperations including funding that would suddenly cease. The list of disasters is endless. The ports would be gridlocked and we've already heard that flights to Europe might well be grounded. Reciprocity of healthcare instantly gone. I could go on and on.
Even this government recognise that in order to make things work there will need to be a period of two years or more of transition after March 2019. Can you just contemplate for a moment the chaos should the likes of Redwood, Tiger Johnson, Gove and Farage get their way.
Brexit in my opinion is going to be so bad for this island but to walk away without any ducks in a row would be suicidal.
'catastrophic' 'disasters' 'chaos' 'suicidal' I am afraid all those words were used up during the Remain referendum campaign.
The consequences of a no deal / walk away scenario would be catastrophic. An abrupt end to our membership would hit our business and economy like a ton of bricks. No one would know how to proceed in either import or export. WTO rules worked out and applied accross the board with hardly anyone knowing how. Documentation ? What tariffs apply and how to apply them. There are hundreds of cross Europe agreements and cooperations including funding that would suddenly cease. The list of disasters is endless. The ports would be gridlocked and we've already heard that flights to Europe might well be grounded. Reciprocity of healthcare instantly gone. I could go on and on.
Even this government recognise that in order to make things work there will need to be a period of two years or more of transition after March 2019. Can you just contemplate for a moment the chaos should the likes of Redwood, Tiger Johnson, Gove and Farage get their way.
Brexit in my opinion is going to be so bad for this island but to walk away without any ducks in a row would be suicidal.
'catastrophic' 'disasters' 'chaos' 'suicidal' I am afraid all those words were used up during the Remain referendum campaign.
Given how accurate they are to describe the Tory Brexit agenda, it is more the case they weren't used enough.
By the way, Brexit doesn't have to be a catastrophe, a disaster, chaotic, or suicidal. If we followed what Vote Leave actually campaigned on (staying in EEA/Customs Union, guaranteed rights for EU citizens in UK, kept UK within firm passporting scheme, got our £350m/week etc., transition period, no hard Irish border) then it wouldn't actually be that bad. Instead literally none of the policies that Vote Leave campaigned on will come to fruition. This is the biggest and most undemocratic scandal in modern British political history.
@cabbles and other reasonable people struggling to work out where they stand on a hugely complex political issue.
In such a situation, I apply this test:
1. Which politicians are most strongly pushing a certain position? 2. Do I agree with their positions on most other political issues? 3. If not, why are they pushing this one so hard? What do they plan as a result of winning this particular argument?
The answer to 1) is easy: Johnson, Grayling, Gove, Leadsom, Redwood, Rees-Mogg, Hannan, Jenkin, all UKIP. Plus to a less clear extent Hoey and Stuart on the Labour side.
3) is the tricky one. but I urge everyone to tackle it, rather than giving in, in the hope that all the noise stops. That is exactly why the group in 1 are making the noise.
Couldn't agree more Prague. How anyone can imagine that group of turds have anything but self-interest in mind is beyond me. One thing is for sure none of them will be on their uppers even if the worse happens.
Incidentally, going back to one of your earlier posts, how much do you think adopting the Euro has helped Slovakia out perform the Czech Rep in economic terms?
I have discussed this a lot, and I would not claim that it is the main factor. The more important one was the really sweeping tax reforms they made in 2004. The euro is probably the second thing though because even more than CZ the Slovaks have benefitted from the global auto industry.
But what it does show - and this is important- is that the euro certainly does not drag a smaller economy down. National governments and their decisions do. The Slovaks joined the euro at the end of 2008, right in the teeth of the financial crisis, yet it recovered far more quickly then the Czech economy after that. And this is despite the fact that Slovakia has a large poverty stricken peasant and Romany population, mainly in the East which is a net drag on the economy, and CZ does not have that. So it is all the more impressive that Slovakia has been outperforming. The Czechs hate it when I point it out to them.
So when people say the euro only benefits Germany, and everyone else suffers, I just say, Slovakia....
The consequences of a no deal / walk away scenario would be catastrophic. An abrupt end to our membership would hit our business and economy like a ton of bricks. No one would know how to proceed in either import or export. WTO rules worked out and applied accross the board with hardly anyone knowing how. Documentation ? What tariffs apply and how to apply them. There are hundreds of cross Europe agreements and cooperations including funding that would suddenly cease. The list of disasters is endless. The ports would be gridlocked and we've already heard that flights to Europe might well be grounded. Reciprocity of healthcare instantly gone. I could go on and on.
Even this government recognise that in order to make things work there will need to be a period of two years or more of transition after March 2019. Can you just contemplate for a moment the chaos should the likes of Redwood, Tiger Johnson, Gove and Farage get their way.
Brexit in my opinion is going to be so bad for this island but to walk away without any ducks in a row would be suicidal.
'catastrophic' 'disasters' 'chaos' 'suicidal' I am afraid all those words were used up during the Remain referendum campaign.
"Disaster" you say? You wouldn't hear that kind of negative talk from people like the "brains" of Vote Leave, Dominic Cummings, would you?
The consequences of a no deal / walk away scenario would be catastrophic. An abrupt end to our membership would hit our business and economy like a ton of bricks. No one would know how to proceed in either import or export. WTO rules worked out and applied accross the board with hardly anyone knowing how. Documentation ? What tariffs apply and how to apply them. There are hundreds of cross Europe agreements and cooperations including funding that would suddenly cease. The list of disasters is endless. The ports would be gridlocked and we've already heard that flights to Europe might well be grounded. Reciprocity of healthcare instantly gone. I could go on and on.
Even this government recognise that in order to make things work there will need to be a period of two years or more of transition after March 2019. Can you just contemplate for a moment the chaos should the likes of Redwood, Tiger Johnson, Gove and Farage get their way.
Brexit in my opinion is going to be so bad for this island but to walk away without any ducks in a row would be suicidal.
'catastrophic' 'disasters' 'chaos' 'suicidal' I am afraid all those words were used up during the Remain referendum campaign.
"Disaster" you say? You wouldn't hear that kind of negative talk from people like the "brains" of Vote Leave, Dominic Cummings, would you?
Comments
Savers are not noted for spending. The clues in the word.
Oh and by the way, there was no referendum, and opinion polls indicated a preference to Remain Together...
;-)
Seems that every claim made by Brexiteers is unravelling and now we should just make the best of it.
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Migration_and_migrant_population_statistics
There is one area where the problem exists: healthcare. My niece is a junior hospital doctor. She works 3 hours drive away in eastern Germany because she is paid three times as much net.
But that is a specific exceptional sector case. One of the things I learnt only slowly about the Czechs is that they do not like to move. They are quite unlike the Poles in this regard. So that has created a problem of pockets of relatively high unemployment in the old industrial areas. It has been very difficult to retrain these older workers, before they can even be persuaded to move.
The number of Czechs living in the UK is only 45,000. Figures for the other EU countries I can't lay my hands on - if you find something, be careful that the figures cover post accession period as a lot of "Czechs" living in France for example cleared out under the Communist regime and have raised families. Czechs are not particularly good at learning foreign languages, and English is the 1st choice for the younger generation.
So the shortage I am living with (it affects my business, and I have never seen anything like this), is the result of a sudden upturn in the economy after a very long recession post 2008. This is evident at management level, as well as in supermarkets or car factories. Clients want a brand manager with 5 years experience. Problem is that for 5 years from 2008 they were cutting, cutting cutting. The new generation of such managers simply isn't there, nobody developed them.
Now in bigger economies, the answer is immigration. But the Czechs can't easily do that, partly because of the language per se, and partly because if you are, say, Bulgarian and ready to move, you will get a better deal in Germany or the UK. The Czech Republic isn't attractive to them. One of the charts in your link shows that only 29,600 immigrated into CZ in 2015. The current option being debated is to give emergency visas to up to 100,000 Ukrainians. Even this isn't easy because Ukrainians have a bad rap among Czechs, absolutely not my experience, but up to now a lot of them are illegals on building sites, (happening next door to me right now), which are not usually the best a country has to offer.
I think your point is valid for certain other EU countries, I know that Bulgaria is frustrated by the loss of many of its best and brightest, although that started in 1990, one of my best buddies (he who helped get us Kishishev) left for Toronto, has built a great life for himself, and ain't going back. Although Kishi is back, owning two restaurants...
Austrians are voting in a general election with the Far Right expected to increase it's influence. Immigration has been a dominant issue in the campaign.
The press are reporting, ''The election comes amid anxiety in Europe over the huge influx of undocumented migrants and refugees in 2015, which fuelled an electoral breakthrough by the far right in neighbouring Germany last month.''
AfD got about 13% of the German vote which is way more alarming that the UKIP flash in the UK's pan. Merkel (whose losses look far worse than May's) said she would listen to AfD's (anti-Islam and migration) concerns to try to win them back. Having right wing nationalists in the nucleus of the EU must be a concern for the whole of Europe - something unthinkable even a decade ago.
It will for sure be difficult as they may need to be part of a coalition, but I am not sure I can agree that this and the AfD (concentrated in the pissed off East) are much worse than the UKIP result because in terms of share of vote, didn't UKIP get about 15%?
What is true is that we cannot ignore the fact that such parties get that number of votes.
I would still vote remain now if asked again. But these hypotheticals are irrelevant now. We need to get on with it and ultimately my preference is to get on with no deal. Reason being, we're not going to negotiate a deal that is satisfactory to the many different stances both here and in the EU, let's not kid ourselves
Unfortunately we just need to do it and pick up the pieces - we've led ourselves here and now we have to do it
If you're going on about your spelling Patriortic I actually never even noticed it as I was so engrossed in the drivel you write. I never mentioned it until you said I was correcting your grammar. I let go the fact you derided my use of the word "methinks" as if it's not correct. I let that go too because I suspect you don't have a vocabulary enough to understand it.
You mate are a classic troll. Do one.
If any pro - Brexiter wants to put a reasoned educated case for what "no-deal" looks like and why it will be "fine", it ought to be possible to debate that in an adult way.
I'm very much of the mind if it's going to be bloody and brutal, we need to just get on with it so we can deal with the consequences
Even this government recognise that in order to make things work there will need to be a period of two years or more of transition after March 2019. Can you just contemplate for a moment the chaos should the likes of Redwood, Tiger Johnson, Gove and Farage get their way.
Brexit in my opinion is going to be so bad for this island but to walk away without any ducks in a row would be suicidal.
Keir Starmer was on the Robert Peston programme yesterday and gave a very impressive outline of how he would handle things. Especially so given the shit hand Corbyn has given him to deal with. More and more there is a need for a cross party group to handle these negotiations. Only my opinion of course.
Nobody can be comforted by saying to themselves 'they couldn't do that, could they?'.
They could.
In such a situation, I apply this test:
1. Which politicians are most strongly pushing a certain position?
2. Do I agree with their positions on most other political issues?
3. If not, why are they pushing this one so hard? What do they plan as a result of winning this particular argument?
The answer to 1) is easy: Johnson, Grayling, Gove, Leadsom, Redwood, Rees-Mogg, Hannan, Jenkin, all UKIP. Plus to a less clear extent Hoey and Stuart on the Labour side.
3) is the tricky one. but I urge everyone to tackle it, rather than giving in, in the hope that all the noise stops. That is exactly why the group in 1 are making the noise.
However beached whales can bask, but because they're beached they're doomed.
Or both.
But mainly Blair.
Incidentally, going back to one of your earlier posts, how much do you think adopting the Euro has helped Slovakia out perform the Czech Rep in economic terms?
I am afraid all those words were used up during the Remain referendum campaign.
By the way, Brexit doesn't have to be a catastrophe, a disaster, chaotic, or suicidal. If we followed what Vote Leave actually campaigned on (staying in EEA/Customs Union, guaranteed rights for EU citizens in UK, kept UK within firm passporting scheme, got our £350m/week etc., transition period, no hard Irish border) then it wouldn't actually be that bad. Instead literally none of the policies that Vote Leave campaigned on will come to fruition. This is the biggest and most undemocratic scandal in modern British political history.
But what it does show - and this is important- is that the euro certainly does not drag a smaller economy down. National governments and their decisions do. The Slovaks joined the euro at the end of 2008, right in the teeth of the financial crisis, yet it recovered far more quickly then the Czech economy after that. And this is despite the fact that Slovakia has a large poverty stricken peasant and Romany population, mainly in the East which is a net drag on the economy, and CZ does not have that. So it is all the more impressive that Slovakia has been outperforming. The Czechs hate it when I point it out to them.
So when people say the euro only benefits Germany, and everyone else suffers, I just say, Slovakia....
Oh, hang on...