The sovereignty argument was the biggest red herring in the whole of the Brexit referendum. A bigger red herring even than my avatar. The fact that Brexiteers were happy for a govt clique, putting party interests before national interests, to stifle parliamentary democracy clearly demonstrates what a nonsense it was. Well done to those MPs who took back control.
Superbly put. Anyone trotting out the sovereignty line and then arguing against parliamentary scrutiny is being disingenuous.
Does Southbank work for the Mail? Looks identical to one of his increasingly hysterical posts.
That looks like the newspaper front page equivalent of writing a hateful rant about your break-up on the billboard opposite your ex's flat. In your own shit.
Does Southbank work for the Mail? Looks identical to one of his increasingly hysterical posts.
That looks like the newspaper front page equivalent of writing a hateful rant about your break-up on the billboard opposite your ex's flat. In your own shit.
You have spent the last 18 months calling out brexiter's for reading the mail, and many including me don't, yet you post their front page...you cant make this up;;;says it all.
Does Southbank work for the Mail? Looks identical to one of his increasingly hysterical posts.
That looks like the newspaper front page equivalent of writing a hateful rant about your break-up on the billboard opposite your ex's flat. In your own shit.
You have spent the last 18 months calling out brexiter's for reading the mail, and many including me don't, yet you post their front page...you cant make this up;;;says it all.
You can, and you just did. Fiiish didn't post the Mail's front page.
Does Southbank work for the Mail? Looks identical to one of his increasingly hysterical posts.
That looks like the newspaper front page equivalent of writing a hateful rant about your break-up on the billboard opposite your ex's flat. In your own shit.
You have spent the last 18 months calling out brexiter's for reading the mail, and many including me don't, yet you post their front page...you cant make this up;;;says it all.
You can, and you just did. Fiiish didn't post the Mail's front page.
Yeah, but in the altered reality of the brexiteer anything can happen.
We want a sovereign parliament We want a sovereign parliament
No! Not like that!
Any brexiter who claimed they voted leave to return sovereignty to parliament and is now angry and that parliament has enacted that very sovereignty is either a hypocrite or was lying about why they voted leave.
Does Southbank work for the Mail? Looks identical to one of his increasingly hysterical posts.
That looks like the newspaper front page equivalent of writing a hateful rant about your break-up on the billboard opposite your ex's flat. In your own shit.
We want a sovereign parliament We want a sovereign parliament
No! Not like that!
Any brexiter who claimed that voted leave to return sovereignty to parliament and is now angry and that parliament has enacted that very sovereignty is either a hypocrite or was lying about why they voted leave.
This 100%
I voted for Brexit and I still stand by my vote, but I didn't do it because I wanted to allow the government free reign to do whatever they want. These things MUST go through Parliament. MPs must be given full scrutiny on important decisions, and there's nothing more important right now than getting a workable deal with the EU.
Theresa May is currently in full panic mode and it could be disastrous to allow a government in such a situation to make huge decisions without other elected members being able to hold them to account. This amendment could potentially make our negotiating position stronger, as both the EU and the government will realise if the deal isn't up to scratch, MPs will not support it, just as the EU 27 will not support it on the other side.
Both sides now have full accountability within their respective organisations, which means this game playing just has to stop and serious negotiations need to start. Concessions will need to be made on both sides to ensure that the relationship going forward is one that has benefits for both sides. I can't see why some fellow brexiteers are seeing this as a negative. No side in this process wants to walk away without a deal, it would be bad for everyone involved.
If sovereignty is important, which to many it is (including myself) then we have to understand that we have a democratic process which needs to be followed. If the government are attempting to somehow get around that process, then it's important we have MP's who are brave enough to stand up to them.
Seems like Chelmsford MP Vicky Ford, former MEP who rebelled last time, got thoroughly rattled by the whip, dithered about the current vote, and was led through the government door by Philip Hammond. Not sure how I feel about that to be honest.
Seems like Chelmsford MP Vicky Ford, former MEP who rebelled last time, got thoroughly rattled by the whip, dithered about the current vote, and was led through the government door by Philip Hammond. Not sure how I feel about that to be honest.
You should feel disgusted at this perversion of democracy. All MPs should vote in the best interests of their constituents, not tow the party line. I've never liked the existence of party whips, but this goes beyond even that with a senior minister chaperoning her to ensure she voted the "right way".
Seems like Chelmsford MP Vicky Ford, former MEP who rebelled last time, got thoroughly rattled by the whip, dithered about the current vote, and was led through the government door by Philip Hammond. Not sure how I feel about that to be honest.
You should feel disgusted at this perversion of democracy. All MPs should vote both in the best interests of their constituents, not tow the party line. I've never liked the existence of party whips, but this goes beyond even that with a senior minister chaperoning her to ensure she voted the "right way".
Seems like Chelmsford MP Vicky Ford, former MEP who rebelled last time, got thoroughly rattled by the whip, dithered about the current vote, and was led through the government door by Philip Hammond. Not sure how I feel about that to be honest.
You should feel disgusted at this perversion of democracy. All MPs should vote both in the best interests of their constituents, not tow the party line. I've never liked the existence of party whips, but this goes beyond even that with a senior minister chaperoning her to ensure she voted the "right way".
Seems like Chelmsford MP Vicky Ford, former MEP who rebelled last time, got thoroughly rattled by the whip, dithered about the current vote, and was led through the government door by Philip Hammond. Not sure how I feel about that to be honest.
You should feel disgusted at this perversion of democracy. All MPs should vote in the best interests of their constituents, not tow the party line. I've never liked the existence of party whips, but this goes beyond even that with a senior minister chaperoning her to ensure she voted the "right way".
Perhaps he convinced her to vote in the best interests of her constituents - and she did !
Maybe the description of the series of events isn't being fair, as it certainly sounds far more like she was coerced into towing the party line than a friendly persuasive chat.
Seems like Chelmsford MP Vicky Ford, former MEP who rebelled last time, got thoroughly rattled by the whip, dithered about the current vote, and was led through the government door by Philip Hammond. Not sure how I feel about that to be honest.
You should feel disgusted at this perversion of democracy. All MPs should vote in the best interests of their constituents, not tow the party line. I've never liked the existence of party whips, but this goes beyond even that with a senior minister chaperoning her to ensure she voted the "right way".
Perhaps he convinced her to vote in the best interests of her constituents - and she did !
Best interests and what a minority of her constituents voted for in a corrupt poll aren't the same thing.
Can Brexiters stop pretending there is any mandate or legitimacy to this farce, or that Brexit will be of any benefit to the British people?
The sovereignty argument was the biggest red herring in the whole of the Brexit referendum. A bigger red herring even than my avatar. The fact that Brexiteers were happy for a govt clique, putting party interests before national interests, to stifle parliamentary democracy clearly demonstrates what a nonsense it was. Well done to those MPs who took back control.
Superbly put. Anyone trotting out the sovereignty line and then arguing against parliamentary scrutiny is being disingenuous.
When we Leavers talk about taking back control we mean from the EU bureaucracy. When you Remainers talk about taking back control you mean from the British people.
The sovereignty argument was the biggest red herring in the whole of the Brexit referendum. A bigger red herring even than my avatar. The fact that Brexiteers were happy for a govt clique, putting party interests before national interests, to stifle parliamentary democracy clearly demonstrates what a nonsense it was. Well done to those MPs who took back control.
Superbly put. Anyone trotting out the sovereignty line and then arguing against parliamentary scrutiny is being disingenuous.
When we Leavers talk about taking back control we mean from the EU bureaucracy. When you Remainers talk about taking back control you mean from the British people.
That is the difference between us.
Have I missed something, have you just been trolling on this thread or do you genuinely believe the nonsense you are now coming out with?
Taking control away from the elected representatives of the British people and handing it over to a handful of Tory Cabinet Ministers might be a better way of defining your wishes it seems. I know which one I think is more democratic.
The sovereignty argument was the biggest red herring in the whole of the Brexit referendum. A bigger red herring even than my avatar. The fact that Brexiteers were happy for a govt clique, putting party interests before national interests, to stifle parliamentary democracy clearly demonstrates what a nonsense it was. Well done to those MPs who took back control.
Superbly put. Anyone trotting out the sovereignty line and then arguing against parliamentary scrutiny is being disingenuous.
When we Leavers talk about taking back control we mean from the EU bureaucracy. When you Remainers talk about taking back control you mean from the British people.
That is the difference between us.
I don't follow your point here. The British people have elected their MP's to presumably implement brexit (whatever that may be) for them. The MP's with the help of their bureaucrats are taking control. What is the difference?
The sovereignty argument was the biggest red herring in the whole of the Brexit referendum. A bigger red herring even than my avatar. The fact that Brexiteers were happy for a govt clique, putting party interests before national interests, to stifle parliamentary democracy clearly demonstrates what a nonsense it was. Well done to those MPs who took back control.
Superbly put. Anyone trotting out the sovereignty line and then arguing against parliamentary scrutiny is being disingenuous.
When we Leavers talk about taking back control we mean from the EU bureaucracy. When you Remainers talk about taking back control you mean from the British people.
That is the difference between us.
Well, no, you talk about that (and it makes very little sense, i may add). Despite proof that the UK was perfectly able to interpret European laws, and all while ignoring the role of elected MEPs.
Personally I've never said that the EU was a paragon of democracy, but being so desperate to leave that you'd accept ministers having complete control over which laws to stay or change without any scrutiny is madness. Lobbyists would have been licking their lips at the idea.
I said this months ago but nobody on the leave side responded. If you don't want parliament to have a say in the exit terms then you're placing 100% faith in Davis and May to get a good deal. I have to wonder what they have done to prove worthy of such trust.
Comments
That looks like the newspaper front page equivalent of writing a hateful rant about your break-up on the billboard opposite your ex's flat. In your own shit.
We want a sovereign parliament
No! Not like that!
Any brexiter who claimed they voted leave to return sovereignty to parliament and is now angry and that parliament has enacted that very sovereignty is either a hypocrite or was lying about why they voted leave.
https://brexittime.com/2017/12/13/parliament-takes-back-control-or-does-it/
I voted for Brexit and I still stand by my vote, but I didn't do it because I wanted to allow the government free reign to do whatever they want. These things MUST go through Parliament. MPs must be given full scrutiny on important decisions, and there's nothing more important right now than getting a workable deal with the EU.
Theresa May is currently in full panic mode and it could be disastrous to allow a government in such a situation to make huge decisions without other elected members being able to hold them to account. This amendment could potentially make our negotiating position stronger, as both the EU and the government will realise if the deal isn't up to scratch, MPs will not support it, just as the EU 27 will not support it on the other side.
Both sides now have full accountability within their respective organisations, which means this game playing just has to stop and serious negotiations need to start. Concessions will need to be made on both sides to ensure that the relationship going forward is one that has benefits for both sides. I can't see why some fellow brexiteers are seeing this as a negative. No side in this process wants to walk away without a deal, it would be bad for everyone involved.
If sovereignty is important, which to many it is (including myself) then we have to understand that we have a democratic process which needs to be followed. If the government are attempting to somehow get around that process, then it's important we have MP's who are brave enough to stand up to them.
Can Brexiters stop pretending there is any mandate or legitimacy to this farce, or that Brexit will be of any benefit to the British people?
That is the difference between us.
Taking control away from the elected representatives of the British people and handing it over to a handful of Tory Cabinet Ministers might be a better way of defining your wishes it seems. I know which one I think is more democratic.
The British people have elected their MP's to presumably implement brexit (whatever that may be) for them. The MP's with the help of their bureaucrats are taking control. What is the difference?
Personally I've never said that the EU was a paragon of democracy, but being so desperate to leave that you'd accept ministers having complete control over which laws to stay or change without any scrutiny is madness. Lobbyists would have been licking their lips at the idea.