Been out of circulation and catching up. The only post which explains what powers the vote actually gives Parliament, as contrasted with the trouser wetting excitement because the Givermment was defeated - gets not a single follow up comment.
To sumarize my understanding: 1 if there is no agreement with the EU under Article 50 there is nothing for Parliament to vote on - a “Hard Brexit” 2 if Parliament rejects the Agreement there is nothing further Parliament must vote on - there is no Agreement - a “Hard Brexit” 3 it shows what a weak position May is in.
Perhaps the brains of the intelligent Remain voters can explain
I think the meaningful vote is only one half of the strategy to avoid a hard brexit, the other half being a transition deal that keeps us in the single market & customs union with no fixed end date
The article refers specifically to "the deportation of EU rough sleepers". there is no mention of British ex-servicemen.
You are quite right of course, and the sooner we have available housing and support services brought on by reduced migration - the better for those ex-squaddies.
@Valiantphil red herring! I was responding to this post from you. Not that you seem able to let the facts get in the way of your increasingly fatuous opinion.
@Cordoban Addick Please excuse my stupidity (after all, I did vote Brexit, so it should be expected):
I posted the BBC article about the ruling that homeless EU migrants cannot be deported by UK.
You replied - asking if I was aware of the number of homeless British ex-servicemen and the lack of support available to them.
I replied - There is no mention of homeless ex-servicemen in the BBC report.
IMO, that equates to a red herring, or at the very least a non sequitur.
The government has more than enough resources to curb immigration and stay in the EU. Other countries make wide use of these restrictions.
The free movement of people is one of the 4 founding principles of EU membership. As far as I am aware, there is nothing that the UK can do as an EU member to stop EU citizens coming to the UK, and as per the BBC article I posted about the court ruling this week - the deportation of homeless EU migrants from the UK is unlawful. Our Government says it will not appeal the decision.
Non EU migrant numbers are fully controllable by the Home Office.
So there you have it. Any EU citizen can come to UK and get a job in Selfridges or doss down in Selfridges doorway. There is nothing the UK can do to prevent/remedy either of these things while we are still a member of the EU, so I'm interested to hear about these resources you mention.
I introduced the number of rough sleeping ex service people into the discussion if that helps. To illustrate the breadth of the problem, and that it is not confined to EU migrants.
Unfortunately we let governments of all stripes get away with their lie that they wanted to curb immigration but it was the damned EC/EU who was forcing these workshy, benefit-scrounging, thieving, smelly foreigners into the country. Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron all paid lip service to curbing immigration but even they knew that immigrants are the lifeblood of our economy and public services. Remember Brown claiming he would guarantee British jobs for British workers? It was just a cynical, hollow ploy to try to placate the same thick little Englanders who could not grow up and face the reality of our reliance on immigrant labour.
But no one bothered to point this out that they were hiding behind the EU excuse when they should have been standing up for these hard workers who helped boost our economy from being the sick man of Europe to the economic powerhouse we are now. Instead they fed us this narrative that immigrants are little better than criminals and for forty years the ignorant voters lapped this tripe up, to the point where some people are deluded enough to think NHS workers from overseas are the reason we have homeless ex-forces persons.
And of course we now are where we are because we allowed our governments to hide behind difficult realities by blaming everything on the EU. Same with the sovereignty red herring. The governments of the last 40 years were willing and active promoters within the EU, more or less every directive from the EU that was adopted into UK law was not only supported by the UK government but most of it was initiated or written with the help of the UK government. Then if a directive got flak from the EU, the government just lied and said it's the nasty EU forcing these laws on us. No wonder you have the likes of Southbank repeating this total shit when even the government is trying to sell this utter rubbish.
I have never rejected the need for immigrant labour, or decried the contribution they have made / are making, and I haven't seen it mentioned on this thread (that I can spot).
Also, there is no link between overseas NHS workers and homeless ex-servicemen mentioned anywhere above (that I can spot). The squaddies were brought up by Cordoban to account for a percentage of rough sleepers - which was a "red herring" from Cordoban, as the article from the BBC talks about the deportation of homeless EU migrants. Ex=servicemen are not mentioned.
My point is simply that - we have enough (net) migrant workers now (low current vacancies) and don't need to allow free movement of labour to an island that has no available housing.
You seem to be bogged down with "little Englanders" who hate Johnny Foreigner, but don't you see it is far far beyond that. The Brexit vote received 17.4 million votes - probably not ALL based on curbing immigration, but this is a huge number who you claim to have been fooled all of the time by successive PM's. I think that is unlikely.
I heard a German MEP on Radio 5 today saying that the EU should give the UK some kind of relief from the free movement rights to persuade us to cancel Brexit, Part of his reasoning was that post-Brexit, the UK will be the EU's largest single export market - and Germany wants to ensure that a trade deal is in place very quickly as it is worried about exports.
Sounds familiar !
Being an MEP is no guarantee of having any sense. Nigel Farage is living proof.
The Farage MEP time was all about delivering direct criticism of the EU to its face, hence the speech he gave after the Brexit referendum ("when I first came here you laughed at me"........etc etc).
Are you suggesting that the EU Parliament contains MEPs with "no sense" ?
These MEPs are the folk that have been voting (pre-Brexit) on matters that directly effect the UK - so I hope they are all serious career politicians acting the best interests of the Union as a whole.
I think it is true to say the UK has always had a larger number of MEP's than many other (smaller) countries. As such the UK has been able to have a lot more influence on the EU than, say, Ireland who have a population about half the size of London and less MEP's.
The decision to open up immigration without restrictions for the ten counties who joined the EU in 2004 was the UK's own. Most other EU countries maintained restrictions - it was just the UK, Ireland and Sweden who opened up completely.
Yet the EU is blamed for forcing such decisions on the UK. Some basic research shows this is not the case. Again, it is much easier to cast the EU as some sort of bogeyman responsible for the UK's problems. Obviously this helps the government of the time and previous ones escape closer scrutiny.
The government has more than enough resources to curb immigration and stay in the EU. Other countries make wide use of these restrictions.
The free movement of people is one of the 4 founding principles of EU membership. As far as I am aware, there is nothing that the UK can do as an EU member to stop EU citizens coming to the UK, and as per the BBC article I posted about the court ruling this week - the deportation of homeless EU migrants from the UK is unlawful. Our Government says it will not appeal the decision.
Non EU migrant numbers are fully controllable by the Home Office.
So there you have it. Any EU citizen can come to UK and get a job in Selfridges or doss down in Selfridges doorway. There is nothing the UK can do to prevent/remedy either of these things while we are still a member of the EU, so I'm interested to hear about these resources you mention.
Did you not see the video that explicitly pointed out that EU states do have powers to curb migration, which Farage conceded that we did have? There are also other powers not mentioned such as the ability to taper immigration from new members and several others. But don't let the facts get in the way of your bias.
Oh and by the way it was the High Court that ruled on deporting EU homeless, not the ECJ, which, as mentioned before, allows EU citizens to be returned if they become a burden on the state.
So yes, the UK does have some powers to control EU immigration. Don't believe what you read in the tabloids.
So that's your question answered VP, though I imagine you'll find some reason to ignore the facts laid out before you.
Oh and by the way it was the High Court that ruled on deporting EU homeless, not the ECJ, which, as mentioned before, allows EU citizens to be returned if they become a burden on the state.
So yes, the UK does have some powers to control EU immigration. Don't believe what you read in the tabloids.
So that's your question answered VP, though I imagine you'll find some reason to ignore the facts laid out before you.
Not at all, just digesting your posts.
So, regarding the existing legislation - are you in favour of the scrutiny of migrant labour to check for "means to exist" and "private medical insurance", and the subsequent rounding-up and deporting of those that fail the test ? Should it be done on arrival (at port of entry), or after a set period, or as soon as they apply for any sort of government funded help ?
And further..........once an EU citizen becomes a burden on the state, how quickly should we deport them? For example - while they are still occupying a hospital bed, wait until they attend outpatients during their recovery, or just go round to where they live and drag them out ?
Should we deport parents at the same time as their dependent children - or split them up ?
Your plan sounds a bit Nazi to me. I personally am not in favour of deportations. I would rather have a proper check when folk arrive to see that they have a job and accommodation already arranged, grant them a visa and the opportunity for UK citizenship in due course where relevant.
Oh and by the way it was the High Court that ruled on deporting EU homeless, not the ECJ, which, as mentioned before, allows EU citizens to be returned if they become a burden on the state.
So yes, the UK does have some powers to control EU immigration. Don't believe what you read in the tabloids.
So that's your question answered VP, though I imagine you'll find some reason to ignore the facts laid out before you.
Not at all, just digesting your posts.
So, regarding the existing legislation - are you in favour of the scrutiny of migrant labour to check for "means to exist" and "private medical insurance", and the subsequent rounding-up and deporting of those that fail the test ? Should it be done on arrival (at port of entry), or after a set period, or as soon as they apply for any sort of government funded help ?
And further..........once an EU citizen becomes a burden on the state, how quickly should we deport them? For example - while they are still occupying a hospital bed, wait until they attend outpatients during their recovery, or just go round to where they live and drag them out ?
Should we deport parents at the same time as their dependent children - or split them up ?
Your plan sounds a bit Nazi to me. I personally am not in favour of deportations. I would rather have a proper check when folk arrive to see that they have a job and accommodation already arranged, grant them a visa and the opportunity for UK citizenship in due course where relevant.
I'd take cover if I were you. Fish's head will be ready to explode after the Nazi reference, especially coming from a fascist, racist little Englander
The government has more than enough resources to curb immigration and stay in the EU. Other countries make wide use of these restrictions.
The free movement of people is one of the 4 founding principles of EU membership. As far as I am aware, there is nothing that the UK can do as an EU member to stop EU citizens coming to the UK, and as per the BBC article I posted about the court ruling this week - the deportation of homeless EU migrants from the UK is unlawful. Our Government says it will not appeal the decision.
Non EU migrant numbers are fully controllable by the Home Office.
So there you have it. Any EU citizen can come to UK and get a job in Selfridges or doss down in Selfridges doorway. There is nothing the UK can do to prevent/remedy either of these things while we are still a member of the EU, so I'm interested to hear about these resources you mention.
You're not thick, obviously, as you run a business in France, but you are an absolute classic at talking past people you seek to engage with.
Do I really have to post Radek Sikorski on the Marr Show again? (would be the 6th time I think). He pointed out that we are far more generous than other EU countries in doling out benefits to people immediately on arrival, and invited us to change it to how Poland itself does it. We never did.
Non EU migrant numbers are fully controllable by the Home Office. Indeed. However they are not doing it, are they? Maybe one reason is the Tories cut their resources and numbers. Another reason though is that they are badly directed by their top people (e.g. my little cameo at Ebbsfleet when I was asked a load of inane questions while leaving the UK)
Of the former Yugoslav countries, only Slovenians and Croats have freedom of movement here. Ever met any? Maybe in a hospital. But go out on a building site, and you will have no trouble finding Albanians, Kosovans, Macedonians, Serbs. And if you need someone for "security" work, these are the nations of choice from among the workforce. And I think it would be very interesting to put in an FOI asking for a breakdown of nationalities of those convicted in the last five years of drug -trafficking, prostitution/people traffficking. What did the Tories do about it all? Nothing. So much easier to bang on about Brexit.
In an expected sense I reckon trying to do the kinds of checks for non EU migrants, and overseas students is reasonable and what ought to happen. That is checks on entry or application for entry rather than retrospective checks. Mind you it might be difficult without significant resources and a significant force on land border in Ireland.
So you're moaning about your incorrect perception that the EU forces us to accept uncontrolled migration, then when it is pointed out to you that there are reasonable controls available, you whinge it's a bit Nazi?
Is this a joke?
I imagine more or less every country has the power to deport people who do not keep to their requirements of staying. So are you accusing every country of being a bit Nazi?
In an expected sense I reckon trying to do the kinds of checks for non EU migrants, and overseas students is reasonable and what ought to happen. That is checks on entry or application for entry rather than retrospective checks. Mind you it might be difficult without significant resources and a significant force on land border in Ireland.
Osborne cut the Border Force resources, just when any reasonable person would have supposed they need strengthening, and that it would also have been the will of the people. He shares the blame.
I will make another assertion that I currently cannot back up with linked facts (although the last time I did, I got grief from a Brexit ultra for daring to quote the Consumers' Association while discussing consumer law, so..).:
I understand from friends in the business that pretty big building companies are guilty of extensively using illegal labour. Some of those companies make political contributions to the Tory party. That said, I don't think the previous administration were any better. It is an absolute disgrace that we have not done more to combat illegal immigration in the last 20 years. But a bit like really getting tough on tax avoiders, it's too much like hard sustained long term work for some politicians.
The government has more than enough resources to curb immigration and stay in the EU. Other countries make wide use of these restrictions.
The free movement of people is one of the 4 founding principles of EU membership. As far as I am aware, there is nothing that the UK can do as an EU member to stop EU citizens coming to the UK, and as per the BBC article I posted about the court ruling this week - the deportation of homeless EU migrants from the UK is unlawful. Our Government says it will not appeal the decision.
Non EU migrant numbers are fully controllable by the Home Office.
So there you have it. Any EU citizen can come to UK and get a job in Selfridges or doss down in Selfridges doorway. There is nothing the UK can do to prevent/remedy either of these things while we are still a member of the EU, so I'm interested to hear about these resources you mention.
You're not thick, obviously, as you run a business in France, but you are an absolute classic at talking past people you seek to engage with.
Do I really have to post Radek Sikorski on the Marr Show again? (would be the 6th time I think). He pointed out that we are far more generous than other EU countries in doling out benefits to people immediately on arrival, and invited us to change it to how Poland itself does it. We never did.
Non EU migrant numbers are fully controllable by the Home Office. Indeed. However they are not doing it, are they? Maybe one reason is the Tories cut their resources and numbers. Another reason though is that they are badly directed by their top people (e.g. my little cameo at Ebbsfleet when I was asked a load of inane questions while leaving the UK)
Of the former Yugoslav countries, only Slovenians and Croats have freedom of movement here. Ever met any? Maybe in a hospital. But go out on a building site, and you will have no trouble finding Albanians, Kosovans, Macedonians, Serbs. And if you need someone for "security" work, these are the nations of choice from among the workforce. And I think it would be very interesting to put in an FOI asking for a breakdown of nationalities of those convicted in the last five years of drug -trafficking, prostitution/people traffficking. What did the Tories do about it all? Nothing. So much easier to bang on about Brexit.
Thank you for the compliment.
I have also pointed out several times that (for me) - this is not about benefit claimants. Talk of EU migrant benefit claimants only clouds the issue with emotion. Brexit (for me) is about the number of people who live in the UK - it's too many already and getting worse.
Non EU migrant numbers are fully controllable by the Home Office - are you saying that non-EU workers are entering the UK without any checks, due to lack of resources at the border? If so, are there any estimates of how many "wrong" visas are granted ?
There is often talk of how the NHS needs staff from India, China etc, so I assume (maybe wrongly) that the 110,000 non-EU migrants in the last reported figures, came here for specific jobs, as opposed to just parking up somewhere and watching the sunset, or they were joining existing family members who are already "economically active" here in UK.
As for specific nationalities, I have no view/preference. If a Croat comes to the UK for a building job - no problem. If a Serb comes to UK for drug/people trafficking, then obviously that is a big no-no, and they can be detained, deported or both.
An EU citizen who arrives with the intention of sleeping on the steps of 10 Downing Street will not be denied entry to UK or subsequently deported. It is not until he/she becomes "a burden on the state" that the UK will take action, and in practice this is problematic as per my earlier post.
Really hard to see how you can't see how the UK could do something about all of these things if they wanted to, but for political reasons it's easier to suggest it's out of their hands.
An EU citizen who arrives with the intention of sleeping on the steps of 10 Downing Street will not be denied entry to UK or subsequently deported. It is not until he/she becomes "a burden on the state" that the UK will take action, and in practice this is problematic as per my earlier post.
You need to read this very slowly because you appear to be missing the core concept here.
This has nothing to do with the EU.
Most EU citizens could, prior to 1992, enter and leave the UK with just a passport. There was nothing stopping them doing exactly what you have described above, and in all likelihood the government will continue to allow all EU citizens to continue to enjoy the privilege of entering and leaving with a passport. The EU does not stop us from deporting people if they fail to meet the requirements of entry within the freedom of movement rules of the EU. It is the UK that currently lacks a legal mechanism to remove them that is the core issue.
Really hard to see how you can't see how the UK could do something about all of these things if they wanted to, but for political reasons it's easier to suggest it's out of their hands.
Freedom of movement to the UK is one of the basic principles of EU membership. Unless I am as thick as folk say.........this means any amount of EU citizens can come to the UK for any reason at any time.
So you're moaning about your incorrect perception that the EU forces us to accept uncontrolled migration, then when it is pointed out to you that there are reasonable controls available, you whinge it's a bit Nazi?
Is this a joke?
I imagine more or less every country has the power to deport people who do not keep to their requirements of staying. So are you accusing every country of being a bit Nazi?
My point was simply asking how you want these "reasonable controls" to be implemented in a practical way.
Still waiting for an answer - what should we do when a Frenchman breaks his leg and cannot look for work ? How quickly do we put him on the Eurostar ? Shall we pick his kids up at the school gate and take them straight to St Pancras ?
As you see, these "reasonable controls" are impractical / inhumane and a bit Nazi.
Finally, the EU freedom of movement rule, forces the UK to accept uncontrolled migration - no whingeng from me, let's just Brexit, then we can issue visas to anyone who wishes to work / reside permanently in the UK, based on our workforce needs and availability of housing. All simple stuff.
Oh and by the way it was the High Court that ruled on deporting EU homeless, not the ECJ, which, as mentioned before, allows EU citizens to be returned if they become a burden on the state.
So yes, the UK does have some powers to control EU immigration. Don't believe what you read in the tabloids.
So that's your question answered VP, though I imagine you'll find some reason to ignore the facts laid out before you.
Not at all, just digesting your posts.
So, regarding the existing legislation - are you in favour of the scrutiny of migrant labour to check for "means to exist" and "private medical insurance", and the subsequent rounding-up and deporting of those that fail the test ? Should it be done on arrival (at port of entry), or after a set period, or as soon as they apply for any sort of government funded help ?
And further..........once an EU citizen becomes a burden on the state, how quickly should we deport them? For example - while they are still occupying a hospital bed, wait until they attend outpatients during their recovery, or just go round to where they live and drag them out ?
Should we deport parents at the same time as their dependent children - or split them up ?
Your plan sounds a bit Nazi to me. I personally am not in favour of deportations. I would rather have a proper check when folk arrive to see that they have a job and accommodation already arranged, grant them a visa and the opportunity for UK citizenship in due course where relevant.
No need for a proper check nor any other changes. Net immigration is falling and is actually zero when it comes to the EU8 - that would be Poland and other Eastern European countries which joined in 2004. After all those are the ones on low wages and benefits chasing a better deal in the UK. In the main they are Polish so why don't you develop your theories about "proper checks" - perhaps a biometric ID card to be carried at all times. After all, a tattoo sounds a bit Nazi doesn't it?
Net immigration is down because sterling is down and growth is going through the roof elsewhere in Europe. The question is how much further do leavers want the UK economy to decline in order to bring immigration down further?! What leave have done is trash the UK brand with their nonsense. And they continue even when it becomes more and more clear that only one third of the electorate support the hard Brexit option. All the talk of immigration is simply dog whistle politics designed to attract a certain type of voter. The main objective is to distract from the fundamental truth that everything is actually run by Whitehall under the political guidance of parliament. And that's precisely what your posts are attempting to do.
It's not that leave voters are stupid but that the leave leadership is completely disingenuous and full of smug sound bites. Oakeshott the other night still banging on about the will of the people and attacking Tory MPs who voted with the opposition... pure Daily Mail nonsense as she attacks the Parliament she claims to support because it isn't doing her bidding. The psychotic no deal option is dying on its feet - some rabbit about immigration even when it's blatantly obvious that the numbers are down because the UK economy is less attractive.
GDP growth has already lost 0.5% in 2017 and for next year and the year after. How much more does it have to fall? Vacancies are up by nearly 10% since the referendum- yeah don't let facts get in the way of your position!
Really hard to see how you can't see how the UK could do something about all of these things if they wanted to, but for political reasons it's easier to suggest it's out of their hands.
Freedom of movement to the UK is one of the basic principles of EU membership. Unless I am as thick as folk say.........this means any amount of EU citizens can come to the UK for any reason at any time.
Am I wrong ?
Countries were allowed to put limits on accession countries' citizens arriving after they join but the UK decided not to do that in 2004. For that, blame the Blair government rather than the EU for the open immigration to the UK.
Net immigration is falling and is actually zero when it comes to the EU8
Net migration is back to the 2014 levels. For EU citizens, that's one (net) permanent new UK resident every 5 minutes. Whether they come from EU8 or EU27 makes no difference to me.
In the main they are Polish so why don't you develop your theories about "proper checks" - perhaps a biometric ID card to be carried at all times. After all, a tattoo sounds a bit Nazi doesn't it?
No need post Brexit, the EU (Polish) passport will be stamped upon entry to the UK.
Vacancies are up by nearly 10% - thats 800,000 unfilled posts which could be supplying services, taxes and profits into the UK economy.
800,000 vacancies, but there is nowhere (generally) for new workers to live, and no guarantee that the vacancies exist in areas that have current housing capacity.
So you're moaning about your incorrect perception that the EU forces us to accept uncontrolled migration, then when it is pointed out to you that there are reasonable controls available, you whinge it's a bit Nazi?
Is this a joke?
I imagine more or less every country has the power to deport people who do not keep to their requirements of staying. So are you accusing every country of being a bit Nazi?
My point was simply asking how you want these "reasonable controls" to be implemented in a practical way.
Still waiting for an answer - what should we do when a Frenchman breaks his leg and cannot look for work ? How quickly do we put him on the Eurostar ? Shall we pick his kids up at the school gate and take them straight to St Pancras ?
As you see, these "reasonable controls" are impractical / inhumane and a bit Nazi.
Finally, the EU freedom of movement rule, forces the UK to accept uncontrolled migration - no whingeng from me, let's just Brexit, then we can issue visas to anyone who wishes to work / reside permanently in the UK, based on our workforce needs and availability of housing. All simple stuff.
You've taken a very specific example, taken it to an implausible extreme and basing the entire system of that and calling it Nazi. Which you could do with more or less any law.
The fact is other EU countries exercise these controls and I doubt a situation as you are alluding to above has ever been close to occurring.
Also, once we leave the EU, there would be nothing stopping your ludicrous scenario from taking place anyway. So, once again since you appear to be incredibly slow at getting this, it has nothing to do with the EU.
Net immigration is falling and is actually zero when it comes to the EU8
Net migration is back to the 2014 levels. For EU citizens, that's one (net) permanent new UK resident every 5 minutes. Whether they come from EU8 or EU27 makes no difference to me.
In the main they are Polish so why don't you develop your theories about "proper checks" - perhaps a biometric ID card to be carried at all times. After all, a tattoo sounds a bit Nazi doesn't it?
No need post Brexit, the EU (Polish) passport will be stamped upon entry to the UK.
Vacancies are up by nearly 10% - thats 800,000 unfilled posts which could be supplying services, taxes and profits into the UK economy.
800,000 vacancies, but there is nowhere (generally) for new workers to live, and no guarantee that the vacancies exist in areas that have current housing capacity.
Nowhere to live? Interesting. Where is there nowhere to live where EU immigrants are flocking to?
Net immigration is falling and is actually zero when it comes to the EU8
Net migration is back to the 2014 levels. For EU citizens, that's one (net) permanent new UK resident every 5 minutes. Whether they come from EU8 or EU27 makes no difference to me.
In the main they are Polish so why don't you develop your theories about "proper checks" - perhaps a biometric ID card to be carried at all times. After all, a tattoo sounds a bit Nazi doesn't it?
No need post Brexit, the EU (Polish) passport will be stamped upon entry to the UK.
Vacancies are up by nearly 10% - thats 800,000 unfilled posts which could be supplying services, taxes and profits into the UK economy.
800,000 vacancies, but there is nowhere (generally) for new workers to live, and no guarantee that the vacancies exist in areas that have current housing capacity.
Net immigration is falling and is actually zero when it comes to the EU8
Net migration is back to the 2014 levels. For EU citizens, that's one (net) permanent new UK resident every 5 minutes. Whether they come from EU8 or EU27 makes no difference to me.
In the main they are Polish so why don't you develop your theories about "proper checks" - perhaps a biometric ID card to be carried at all times. After all, a tattoo sounds a bit Nazi doesn't it?
No need post Brexit, the EU (Polish) passport will be stamped upon entry to the UK.
Vacancies are up by nearly 10% - thats 800,000 unfilled posts which could be supplying services, taxes and profits into the UK economy.
800,000 vacancies, but there is nowhere (generally) for new workers to live, and no guarantee that the vacancies exist in areas that have current housing capacity.
Whereabouts on the Irish border will that happen?
We will have to wait and see the detail, but you would be ill-advised to make permanent residence in the UK without the required entry documents, which ever way you crossed any border - this would be illegal, and folk could be detained, deported, or both.
Net immigration is falling and is actually zero when it comes to the EU8
Net migration is back to the 2014 levels. For EU citizens, that's one (net) permanent new UK resident every 5 minutes. Whether they come from EU8 or EU27 makes no difference to me.
In the main they are Polish so why don't you develop your theories about "proper checks" - perhaps a biometric ID card to be carried at all times. After all, a tattoo sounds a bit Nazi doesn't it?
No need post Brexit, the EU (Polish) passport will be stamped upon entry to the UK.
Vacancies are up by nearly 10% - thats 800,000 unfilled posts which could be supplying services, taxes and profits into the UK economy.
800,000 vacancies, but there is nowhere (generally) for new workers to live, and no guarantee that the vacancies exist in areas that have current housing capacity.
Whereabouts on the Irish border will that happen?
We will have to wait and see the detail, but you would be ill-advised to make permanent residence in the UK without the required entry documents, which ever way you crossed any border - this would be illegal, and folk could be detained, deported, or both.
I thought you said deporting people is what the Nazis did?
Net immigration is falling and is actually zero when it comes to the EU8
Net migration is back to the 2014 levels. For EU citizens, that's one (net) permanent new UK resident every 5 minutes. Whether they come from EU8 or EU27 makes no difference to me.
In the main they are Polish so why don't you develop your theories about "proper checks" - perhaps a biometric ID card to be carried at all times. After all, a tattoo sounds a bit Nazi doesn't it?
No need post Brexit, the EU (Polish) passport will be stamped upon entry to the UK.
Vacancies are up by nearly 10% - thats 800,000 unfilled posts which could be supplying services, taxes and profits into the UK economy.
800,000 vacancies, but there is nowhere (generally) for new workers to live, and no guarantee that the vacancies exist in areas that have current housing capacity.
Nowhere to live? Interesting. Where is there nowhere to live where EU immigrants are flocking to?
Well, as I stated previously.......one (net) EU citizen arrives as a long term migrant every 5 minutes (ONS) and we need to build 300,000 homes EVERY year until the mid 2020's, to keep up with demand. (Philip Hammond).
Net immigration is falling and is actually zero when it comes to the EU8
Net migration is back to the 2014 levels. For EU citizens, that's one (net) permanent new UK resident every 5 minutes. Whether they come from EU8 or EU27 makes no difference to me.
In the main they are Polish so why don't you develop your theories about "proper checks" - perhaps a biometric ID card to be carried at all times. After all, a tattoo sounds a bit Nazi doesn't it?
No need post Brexit, the EU (Polish) passport will be stamped upon entry to the UK.
Vacancies are up by nearly 10% - thats 800,000 unfilled posts which could be supplying services, taxes and profits into the UK economy.
800,000 vacancies, but there is nowhere (generally) for new workers to live, and no guarantee that the vacancies exist in areas that have current housing capacity.
Whereabouts on the Irish border will that happen?
We will have to wait and see the detail, but you would be ill-advised to make permanent residence in the UK without the required entry documents, which ever way you crossed any border - this would be illegal, and folk could be detained, deported, or both.
Yes of course, detained and deported, maybe in ways that you described earlier including people between operations and out patients, or kids collected from school to be detained and deported with their parents. However I think your point about passports being stamped upon entry to the UK demands a hard border in Ireland. Either way it is going to cost a lot in resources either on a hard border or with internal checks, and it will cost a lot politically. You seem to be a detail person able to imagine practicalities (some of which you described, rightly, as a bit Nazi), so it doesn't seem to fit your previous posts when you talk of waiting and seeing the detail. I reckon Davis and May would welcome your practical suggestions to deal with the details.
Comments
Please excuse my stupidity (after all, I did vote Brexit, so it should be expected):
I posted the BBC article about the ruling that homeless EU migrants cannot be deported by UK.
You replied - asking if I was aware of the number of homeless British ex-servicemen and the lack of support available to them.
I replied - There is no mention of homeless ex-servicemen in the BBC report.
IMO, that equates to a red herring, or at the very least a non sequitur.
The government has more than enough resources to curb immigration and stay in the EU. Other countries make wide use of these restrictions.
The free movement of people is one of the 4 founding principles of EU membership.
As far as I am aware, there is nothing that the UK can do as an EU member to stop EU citizens coming to the UK, and as per the BBC article I posted about the court ruling this week - the deportation of homeless EU migrants from the UK is unlawful. Our Government says it will not appeal the decision.
Non EU migrant numbers are fully controllable by the Home Office.
So there you have it. Any EU citizen can come to UK and get a job in Selfridges or doss down in Selfridges doorway. There is nothing the UK can do to prevent/remedy either of these things while we are still a member of the EU, so I'm interested to hear about these resources you mention.
Are you suggesting that the EU Parliament contains MEPs with "no sense" ?
These MEPs are the folk that have been voting (pre-Brexit) on matters that directly effect the UK - so I hope they are all serious career politicians acting the best interests of the Union as a whole.
As such the UK has been able to have a lot more influence on the EU than, say, Ireland who have a population about half the size of London and less MEP's.
Yet the EU is blamed for forcing such decisions on the UK. Some basic research shows this is not the case. Again, it is much easier to cast the EU as some sort of bogeyman responsible for the UK's problems. Obviously this helps the government of the time and previous ones escape closer scrutiny.
So yes, the UK does have some powers to control EU immigration. Don't believe what you read in the tabloids.
So that's your question answered VP, though I imagine you'll find some reason to ignore the facts laid out before you.
So, regarding the existing legislation - are you in favour of the scrutiny of migrant labour to check for "means to exist" and "private medical insurance", and the subsequent rounding-up and deporting of those that fail the test ?
Should it be done on arrival (at port of entry), or after a set period, or as soon as they apply for any sort of government funded help ?
And further..........once an EU citizen becomes a burden on the state, how quickly should we deport them?
For example - while they are still occupying a hospital bed, wait until they attend outpatients during their recovery, or just go round to where they live and drag them out ?
Should we deport parents at the same time as their dependent children - or split them up ?
Your plan sounds a bit Nazi to me.
I personally am not in favour of deportations.
I would rather have a proper check when folk arrive to see that they have a job and accommodation already arranged, grant them a visa and the opportunity for UK citizenship in due course where relevant.
1/5 that you're accused of talking complete shit.
You're not thick, obviously, as you run a business in France, but you are an absolute classic at talking past people you seek to engage with.
Do I really have to post Radek Sikorski on the Marr Show again? (would be the 6th time I think). He pointed out that we are far more generous than other EU countries in doling out benefits to people immediately on arrival, and invited us to change it to how Poland itself does it. We never did.
Non EU migrant numbers are fully controllable by the Home Office.
Indeed. However they are not doing it, are they? Maybe one reason is the Tories cut their resources and numbers. Another reason though is that they are badly directed by their top people (e.g. my little cameo at Ebbsfleet when I was asked a load of inane questions while leaving the UK)
Of the former Yugoslav countries, only Slovenians and Croats have freedom of movement here. Ever met any? Maybe in a hospital. But go out on a building site, and you will have no trouble finding Albanians, Kosovans, Macedonians, Serbs. And if you need someone for "security" work, these are the nations of choice from among the workforce. And I think it would be very interesting to put in an FOI asking for a breakdown of nationalities of those convicted in the last five years of drug -trafficking, prostitution/people traffficking. What did the Tories do about it all? Nothing. So much easier to bang on about Brexit.
Mind you it might be difficult without significant resources and a significant force on land border in Ireland.
Is this a joke?
I imagine more or less every country has the power to deport people who do not keep to their requirements of staying. So are you accusing every country of being a bit Nazi?
I will make another assertion that I currently cannot back up with linked facts (although the last time I did, I got grief from a Brexit ultra for daring to quote the Consumers' Association while discussing consumer law, so..).:
I understand from friends in the business that pretty big building companies are guilty of extensively using illegal labour. Some of those companies make political contributions to the Tory party. That said, I don't think the previous administration were any better. It is an absolute disgrace that we have not done more to combat illegal immigration in the last 20 years. But a bit like really getting tough on tax avoiders, it's too much like hard sustained long term work for some politicians.
I have also pointed out several times that (for me) - this is not about benefit claimants.
Talk of EU migrant benefit claimants only clouds the issue with emotion.
Brexit (for me) is about the number of people who live in the UK - it's too many already and getting worse.
Non EU migrant numbers are fully controllable by the Home Office - are you saying that non-EU workers are entering the UK without any checks, due to lack of resources at the border?
If so, are there any estimates of how many "wrong" visas are granted ?
There is often talk of how the NHS needs staff from India, China etc, so I assume (maybe wrongly) that the 110,000 non-EU migrants in the last reported figures, came here for specific jobs, as opposed to just parking up somewhere and watching the sunset, or they were joining existing family members who are already "economically active" here in UK.
As for specific nationalities, I have no view/preference.
If a Croat comes to the UK for a building job - no problem.
If a Serb comes to UK for drug/people trafficking, then obviously that is a big no-no, and they can be detained, deported or both.
An EU citizen who arrives with the intention of sleeping on the steps of 10 Downing Street will not be denied entry to UK or subsequently deported. It is not until he/she becomes "a burden on the state" that the UK will take action, and in practice this is problematic as per my earlier post.
This has nothing to do with the EU.
Most EU citizens could, prior to 1992, enter and leave the UK with just a passport. There was nothing stopping them doing exactly what you have described above, and in all likelihood the government will continue to allow all EU citizens to continue to enjoy the privilege of entering and leaving with a passport. The EU does not stop us from deporting people if they fail to meet the requirements of entry within the freedom of movement rules of the EU. It is the UK that currently lacks a legal mechanism to remove them that is the core issue.
Unless I am as thick as folk say.........this means any amount of EU citizens can come to the UK for any reason at any time.
Am I wrong ?
Still waiting for an answer - what should we do when a Frenchman breaks his leg and cannot look for work ?
How quickly do we put him on the Eurostar ?
Shall we pick his kids up at the school gate and take them straight to St Pancras ?
As you see, these "reasonable controls" are impractical / inhumane and a bit Nazi.
Finally, the EU freedom of movement rule, forces the UK to accept uncontrolled migration - no whingeng from me, let's just Brexit, then we can issue visas to anyone who wishes to work / reside permanently in the UK, based on our workforce needs and availability of housing. All simple stuff.
Net immigration is down because sterling is down and growth is going through the roof elsewhere in Europe. The question is how much further do leavers want the UK economy to decline in order to bring immigration down further?! What leave have done is trash the UK brand with their nonsense. And they continue even when it becomes more and more clear that only one third of the electorate support the hard Brexit option. All the talk of immigration is simply dog whistle politics designed to attract a certain type of voter. The main objective is to distract from the fundamental truth that everything is actually run by Whitehall under the political guidance of parliament. And that's precisely what your posts are attempting to do.
It's not that leave voters are stupid but that the leave leadership is completely disingenuous and full of smug sound bites. Oakeshott the other night still banging on about the will of the people and attacking Tory MPs who voted with the opposition... pure Daily Mail nonsense as she attacks the Parliament she claims to support because it isn't doing her bidding. The psychotic no deal option is dying on its feet - some rabbit about immigration even when it's blatantly obvious that the numbers are down because the UK economy is less attractive.
GDP growth has already lost 0.5% in 2017 and for next year and the year after. How much more does it have to fall? Vacancies are up by nearly 10% since the referendum- yeah don't let facts get in the way of your position!
Net migration is back to the 2014 levels. For EU citizens, that's one (net) permanent new UK resident every 5 minutes.
Whether they come from EU8 or EU27 makes no difference to me.
In the main they are Polish so why don't you develop your theories about "proper checks" - perhaps a biometric ID card to be carried at all times. After all, a tattoo sounds a bit Nazi doesn't it?
No need post Brexit, the EU (Polish) passport will be stamped upon entry to the UK.
Vacancies are up by nearly 10% - thats 800,000 unfilled posts which could be supplying services, taxes and profits into the UK economy.
800,000 vacancies, but there is nowhere (generally) for new workers to live, and no guarantee that the vacancies exist in areas that have current housing capacity.
The fact is other EU countries exercise these controls and I doubt a situation as you are alluding to above has ever been close to occurring.
Also, once we leave the EU, there would be nothing stopping your ludicrous scenario from taking place anyway. So, once again since you appear to be incredibly slow at getting this, it has nothing to do with the EU.
Happy to clear that up for you.
However I think your point about passports being stamped upon entry to the UK demands a hard border in Ireland.
Either way it is going to cost a lot in resources either on a hard border or with internal checks, and it will cost a lot politically.
You seem to be a detail person able to imagine practicalities (some of which you described, rightly, as a bit Nazi), so it doesn't seem to fit your previous posts when you talk of waiting and seeing the detail.
I reckon Davis and May would welcome your practical suggestions to deal with the details.