Excellent! In other words, the role of the EU27 and M.Barnier is to gently talk us off the ledge and back to safety, albeit whilst losing all influence until we clean up our act.
Of course the UK can still jump as per the wishes of the 34% who want a hard Brexit.
On a different note, amendment 7 is up for discussion tomorrow which appears to empower Parliament to instruct the Prime Minister to extend negotiations if the deal looks shockingly bad in March 2019.
Some papers believe that the government might be defeated on this due to remain Tories voting with Labour?
Not sure what to make of this as the benefit of a hard close to the process in 15 months is to focus minds and force the issues. Some might say this is more project panic?!
So the fact that the agreement is not legally binding ... which the EU themselves also knew because they helped draft it ... is damaging trust according to that paragon of virtue, Guy Verhofstadt.
I have no time for Davis but Verhofstadt is aware that the agreement is not legally binding. He is also playing to an audience.
@NornIrishAddick are you saying that without armed guards at the border the UK will be exporting it’s poisoned food and exploding Luvabella dolls to Ireland. Can the UK not be trusted to protect its own citizens? Is the EU the only body in the World that knows how to regulate?
You may be confusing the propensity of the EU to regulate, with the objective of creating a barrier to trade, with effective and proportionate regulation in the interests of consumers.
You may be confusing the expertise in producing regulations and its sheer volume, with effective and proportionate regulation in the interests of consumers.
Faithful supporters of the EU unable to see any defects think the more regulations you have the safer you are. Didn’t stop horse meat infiltrating the whole EU food chain did it.
Sneering comment in one of the Irish press articles implying UK Brexit voters can’t wait to import chlorinated chicken. As if chlorinated chicken is a danger to health compared to the salmonella contaminated carcasses sold in the EU as matter of course.
Which country has better animal welfare standards than the UK anywhere else in the EU? Answer - none, only Switzerland and Austria match the U.K.
Why would the EU want to impose tariffs on UK agricultural produce from the UK, some of the best quality available anywhere in Europe.
Why would the EU deny its citizens enjoying UK produce? To protect health or its trade barriers?
I'm happy to reassure you that I am not at all confused about the EU and its ability to regulate, and even about whether regulations work.
For what it is worth, I believe that the more regulations you have, requiring higher quality, better standards, etc. for foodstuffs and other goods will make consumers safer. Not because of the individual regulations exist, because, just like laws, the existence of regulations do not, in themselves, improve safety. The sad truth is, that in any system, some will seek to take advantage - but a detailed regulatory system makes it more difficult.
However, the EU regulatory framework, combined with appropriate inspection and controls (including those at the external customs border, which seek to , has vastly improved both quality and safety of products and produce all of us use and consume over the course of the last four decades.
The CE mark for electrical equipment can, of course be faked, but the requirement that manufacturers worldwide ensure that their products comply with EU standards has, in the vast majority of cases led to a significant improvement in the quality and safety of such products.
In terms of food quality, much of the rest of the world is coming to accept the EU model (including Protected Designation of Origin, Protected Geographical Indication and Traditional Specialties Guaranteed) rather than that of the USA.
The EU makes stringent efforts to reduce and, as much as is possible, eliminate salmonella from the food chain (and they have done a remarkably good job). Because the EU approach is considered to be effective, other countries are following suit. The thing about salmonella is that, no matter where in the world poultry is farmed, some level of salmonells will exist (including eggs).
I have a preference for chicken that is farmed in a way that seeks to reduce infections in live poultry, rather than to have lesser standards and the chicken carcasses then washed with a chlorinated solution. But each to their own, you may believe it adds a certain piquancy to the meat.
And, yes, UK animal welfare standards are excellent, but they have been improved, over time, by the changes to EU standards - and, here is the thing, one of the key elements to making the kind of animal welfare standards that we want possible has been the agricultural subsidies provided by the EU. If we were in a Patrick Minford-esque free market for agricultural produce, the vast majority of UK livestock farmers could not afford to have the kind of standards that we would all like to see (there is only so much demand for niche produce, which may explain why it is niche).
You may well ask whether the UK can be trusted to protect its own citizens in a post Brexit world, because, unless there is a dramatic increase in capacity, it may be obliged to simply adopt the regulatory standards of the EU (though, as the UK has been sitting on the naughty step of late, following an investigation by OLAF, there may be questions about its current ability to police its own border controls efficiently).
The EU will, if need be, impose tariffs on UK agricultural produce, notwithstanding its quality, because that is the way that trade operates in the real (WTO) world, maybe...
As someone with a careers worth of dealing with both domestic and european legislation under the belt I have stated time and again that the quality and effectiveness of EU Directive driven legislation is far superior to that which we produce ourself for UK only consumption.
That's not just my opinion. Of the many I've come into contact with on a personal level, or read more scholarly articles by, I'm yet to meet a single colleague from elsewhere around the UK who believes Brexit will be beneficial for consumers. Some of these people are the UK leads for their subject area of trade regulation. No one of course asked these 'experts' what the effect leaving the EU might be on, say, the safety of cosmetic products or electrical items before the referendum. Getting some considered input on the likely outcomes of Brexit simply doesn't seem to have figured highly with our politicians, before or since unfortunately.
Thank you for your response to Dippys continuation of the myth that we can create our own laws better than those we work with the EU in developing...or are decreed to us in the mistaken belief of Leavers.
It was certainly much more measured than mine would have been.
Let's remind ourselves that my Miele vacuum cleaner comes with a no questions asked 2 year guarantee which I can activate anywhere in the EU. Your vacuum cleaner sadly only comes with a one year guarantee. This is because the U.K. has chosen to ignore this particular part of the EU directive, even while the politicians persist with the fiction that UK citizens are all buckling under the onerous weight of EU laws dictated by unelected little green men.
Usually @Dippenhall chips in at this point to assert that EU citizens pay for this because the manufacturers slap a price hike on the continental prices to cover the extra year. He has never, however, presented any evidence to back up this assertion. In fact I regularly compare and find the opposite situation. For example yesterday I bought a Philips hair trimmer as a prezzie. Amazon UK proposed to charge me £52 for it, while helpfully warning me that I could have a newer model in Jan which would cost me £60. I then checked the same model on the local market, and a reliable little Czech e shop was one of several to offer it for the equivalent of £38. It's not the £ devaluation to blame for the difference as it would still have been only £42 pre the vote.
So I think this is an admirable example of what is to come for U.K. consumers. Of course I can forgive @Dippenhall for now going round his house looking for every item he might replace in the next 2-3 years, sourcing a friend in Germany and then putting in a massive bulk order from Amazon.de for all that stuff before March 2019. Of course back in Brexit Britain he won't get any help with warranty after 12 months but if he sticks with German brands that won't matter.
You're welcome, Dipps....actually if you need anything cheap from the Continent which can fit in hand lugggage, give me a shout and I will bring it over for you. I ask only for your public recorded admission that this is evidence that your assertion above is not susbstantiated by real market evidence :-)
Let's remind ourselves that my Miele vacuum cleaner comes with a no questions asked 2 year guarantee which I can activate anywhere in the EU. Your vacuum cleaner sadly only comes with a one year guarantee. This is because the U.K. has chosen to ignore this particular part of the EU directive, even while the politicians persist with the fiction that UK citizens are all buckling under the onerous weight of EU laws dictated by unelected little green men.
Only read this bit but what about the Sale of Goods Act/Consumer Rights Act? Maybe that's why the UK chose to ignore that particular EU directive.
I genuinely don't know but would assume, maybe incorrectly, that the above Act(s) more than cover your guarantee from those lovely Germans.
Also, higher spec kit tends to have a better guarantee than, say, the Zanussi AirSpeed Lite ZAN2000A @ £68.95
Let's remind ourselves that my Miele vacuum cleaner comes with a no questions asked 2 year guarantee which I can activate anywhere in the EU. Your vacuum cleaner sadly only comes with a one year guarantee. This is because the U.K. has chosen to ignore this particular part of the EU directive, even while the politicians persist with the fiction that UK citizens are all buckling under the onerous weight of EU laws dictated by unelected little green men.
Only read this bit but what about the Sale of Goods Act/Consumer Rights Act? Maybe that's why the UK chose to ignore that particular EU directive.
I genuinely don't know but would assume, maybe incorrectly, that the above Act(s) more than cover your guarantee from those lovely Germans.
Also, higher spec kit tends to have a better guarantee than, say, the Zanussi AirSpeed Lite ZAN2000A @ £68.95
....whilst I'm here, doesn't UK legislation actually trump the EU's 2 year guarantee? The UK offers a 6 year guarantee that has all the same bells and whistles as the 2 year EU one.
Consumers here, on the whole, just aren't aware of their rights.
On PMQ's today Theresa May went on about giving MP's a chance to have a meaningful vote on the deal (if it happens). Made me wonder what a meaningless vote is, and hope it might be the referendum.
Let's remind ourselves that my Miele vacuum cleaner comes with a no questions asked 2 year guarantee which I can activate anywhere in the EU. Your vacuum cleaner sadly only comes with a one year guarantee. This is because the U.K. has chosen to ignore this particular part of the EU directive, even while the politicians persist with the fiction that UK citizens are all buckling under the onerous weight of EU laws dictated by unelected little green men.
Only read this bit but what about the Sale of Goods Act/Consumer Rights Act? Maybe that's why the UK chose to ignore that particular EU directive.
I genuinely don't know but would assume, maybe incorrectly, that the above Act(s) more than cover your guarantee from those lovely Germans.
Also, higher spec kit tends to have a better guarantee than, say, the Zanussi AirSpeed Lite ZAN2000A @ £68.95
....whilst I'm here, doesn't UK legislation actually trump the EU's 2 year guarantee? The UK offers a 6 year guarantee that has all the same bells and whistles as the 2 year EU one.
Consumers here, on the whole, just aren't aware of their rights.
It’s not so much of a 6 year guarantee, let’s face it, the cheap hair trimmer that Prague brought for his back, sack and crack won’t be expected to last 6 years. So if it develops a fault after say two, you could argue that the product has reached the end of its lifespan.
However, if you spent 5k on a TV and it developed a fault after the same period, you would be able to get it replaced / repaired as you could argue it has not lasted a reasonable amount of time for the price paid.
And the important thing to draw from what @PragueAddick said was that the UK and other members of the EU have always been able to ignore parts of EU directives. Which is why you can see health and safety on building sites ignored in many European countries (not UK) and why people can still smoke in some bars in Germany (and i'm sure others too).
Let's remind ourselves that my Miele vacuum cleaner comes with a no questions asked 2 year guarantee which I can activate anywhere in the EU. Your vacuum cleaner sadly only comes with a one year guarantee. This is because the U.K. has chosen to ignore this particular part of the EU directive, even while the politicians persist with the fiction that UK citizens are all buckling under the onerous weight of EU laws dictated by unelected little green men.
Only read this bit but what about the Sale of Goods Act/Consumer Rights Act? Maybe that's why the UK chose to ignore that particular EU directive.
I genuinely don't know but would assume, maybe incorrectly, that the above Act(s) more than cover your guarantee from those lovely Germans.
Also, higher spec kit tends to have a better guarantee than, say, the Zanussi AirSpeed Lite ZAN2000A @ £68.95
....whilst I'm here, doesn't UK legislation actually trump the EU's 2 year guarantee? The UK offers a 6 year guarantee that has all the same bells and whistles as the 2 year EU one.
Consumers here, on the whole, just aren't aware of their rights.
It’s not so much of a 6 year guarantee, let’s face it, the cheap hair trimmer that Prague brought for his back, sack and crack won’t be expected to last 6 years. So if it develops a fault after say two, you could argue that the product has reached the end of its lifespan.
However, if you spent 5k on a TV and it developed a fault after the same period, you would be able to get it replaced / repaired as you could argue it has not lasted a reasonable amount of time for the price paid.
So yes, it does trump the EU guarantee.
Someone had better contact @Dippenhall to tell him to stop looking for things to replace.
All he has to do is purchase future Hoover's from Miele UK and benefit from a 6 year guarantee as opposed to the paltry 2 years offered in Deutschland
@Big_Bad_World has it when he says consumers don't know their rights. A lot of places hide behind one or two year guarantees and are implacable in turning customers away. However goods should also last for a reasonable period of time and it is that UK law that one ought to be pleased about. The price discrepancies mentioned above between places in the EU and the UK are a different matter.
@Big_Bad_World has it when he says consumers don't know their rights. A lot of places hide behind one or two year guarantees and are implacable in turning customers away. However goods should also last for a reasonable period of time and it is that UK law that one ought to be pleased about. The price discrepancies mentioned above between places in the EU and the UK are a different matter.
I'd even be so bold as to suggest that it was the Sale of Goods Act that formed the basis for European legislation. We just continued to build on it to offer consumers more protection.
And the important thing to draw from what @PragueAddick said was that the UK and other members of the EU have always been able to ignore parts of EU directives. Which is why you can see health and safety on building sites ignored in many European countries (not UK) and why people can still smoke in some bars in Germany (and i'm sure others too).
Darn sovereignty.
That can't be true. Southbank et al keep telling us that the EU has unlimited power to force laws on the UK that we have no veto, variance, or input into, and that these laws are forced on us by the 28 unelected commissioners who appoint themselves along with the 751 completely unelected MEPs who are all corrupt and waste all their money on the Strasbourg gravy train.
And that if we stay in we will become a United States of Europe with an EU-appointed dictator superseding Parliament, and our entire armed forces will be folded into an EU army with Van Rompuy as commander in chief.
Let's remind ourselves that my Miele vacuum cleaner comes with a no questions asked 2 year guarantee which I can activate anywhere in the EU. Your vacuum cleaner sadly only comes with a one year guarantee. This is because the U.K. has chosen to ignore this particular part of the EU directive, even while the politicians persist with the fiction that UK citizens are all buckling under the onerous weight of EU laws dictated by unelected little green men.
Usually @Dippenhall chips in at this point to assert that EU citizens pay for this because the manufacturers slap a price hike on the continental prices to cover the extra year. He has never, however, presented any evidence to back up this assertion. In fact I regularly compare and find the opposite situation. For example yesterday I bought a Philips hair trimmer as a prezzie. Amazon UK proposed to charge me £52 for it, while helpfully warning me that I could have a newer model in Jan which would cost me £60. I then checked the same model on the local market, and a reliable little Czech e shop was one of several to offer it for the equivalent of £38. It's not the £ devaluation to blame for the difference as it would still have been only £42 pre the vote.
So I think this is an admirable example of what is to come for U.K. consumers. Of course I can forgive @Dippenhall for now going round his house looking for every item he might replace in the next 2-3 years, sourcing a friend in Germany and then putting in a massive bulk order from Amazon.de for all that stuff before March 2019. Of course back in Brexit Britain he won't get any help with warranty after 12 months but if he sticks with German brands that won't matter.
You're welcome, Dipps....actually if you need anything cheap from the Continent which can fit in hand lugggage, give me a shout and I will bring it over for you. I ask only for your public recorded admission that this is evidence that your assertion above is not susbstantiated by real market evidence :-)
Just spent 5 days in Germany and had the last couple of days to myself. Certainly didn't notice anything that was cheaper over there than here.
Transport was more expensive,, eating out more expensive , electrical goods and clothes more expensive. 85 euros for a fc nuremberg shirt. Next time i am over there in a few months time, give me a shout and i will bring some stuff over to you from the UK and give it to you.
You forget some of us have detached duty in europe. Projecrt fear rears its ugly head again.
@Big_Bad_World has it when he says consumers don't know their rights. A lot of places hide behind one or two year guarantees and are implacable in turning customers away. However goods should also last for a reasonable period of time and it is that UK law that one ought to be pleased about. The price discrepancies mentioned above between places in the EU and the UK are a different matter.
I'd even be so bold as to suggest that it was the Sale of Goods Act that formed the basis for European legislation. We just continued to build on it to offer consumers more protection.
Bang on. Isn't interstate cooperation and development a wonderful thing!
Tory whips are now bringing legal threats to rebels in order to bring them into line. Beginnings of a new police state.
Of course if the rebels air their grievances in the Commons chamber they can't be prosecuted. Could be a spectacular own goal here from the far-right of the Tory party.
Let's remind ourselves that my Miele vacuum cleaner comes with a no questions asked 2 year guarantee which I can activate anywhere in the EU. Your vacuum cleaner sadly only comes with a one year guarantee. This is because the U.K. has chosen to ignore this particular part of the EU directive, even while the politicians persist with the fiction that UK citizens are all buckling under the onerous weight of EU laws dictated by unelected little green men.
Only read this bit but what about the Sale of Goods Act/Consumer Rights Act? Maybe that's why the UK chose to ignore that particular EU directive.
I genuinely don't know but would assume, maybe incorrectly, that the above Act(s) more than cover your guarantee from those lovely Germans.
Also, higher spec kit tends to have a better guarantee than, say, the Zanussi AirSpeed Lite ZAN2000A @ £68.95
My tv whch i bought down the road comes with a 5 year guarantee that the shop does itself, outwith of the manufacturers TWO year warranty.
Another @Big_Bad_World masterclass in deftly muddying the water. I admire your craft, sir, I'll freely concede, although I guess training is everything.
OK this is cut and pasted from the Which consumer website. I assume that everyone trusts Which on this matter? The bold highlights are mine, to respond to the points made above
Time limits on your rights While there’s no time limit for approaching a retailer about a faulty product using the Sale of Goods Act, you only have six years from the date you received the goods (five years in Scotland) to enforce those rights. This does not mean that everything has to last six years from the date of purchase! It is the time limit for the customer to take a claim to court.
During this period, the retailer is legally required to deal with a customer who claims that their item does not conform to contract (is faulty) and decide what would be the reasonable amount of time to expect the goods to last. The six year period is not the same as a guarantee, but it does mean that even where the guarantee or warranty supplied with the product has ended, you may still have legal rights. (It’s worth noting that after six months, it’s down to the customer to prove the fault was there from the start, which could include providing an expert report).
So the SoG doesn't "trump" the EU directive, @cafcpolo, because it is not a guarantee. You can freely test that proposition when your mobile phone screen cracks after 18 months. Good luck trying to throw the SoG at Apple and Samsung. If you are in Europe, and didn't buy it on the company, Apple and Samsung have to cough up.
Furthermore you guys are making the rather arrogant assumption that the primitive continental countries don't also have national laws similar to the Sale of Goods Act. I have no idea, but I am willing to bet the Germans do.
Comments
In other words, the role of the EU27 and M.Barnier is to gently talk us off the ledge and back to safety, albeit whilst losing all influence until we clean up our act.
Of course the UK can still jump as per the wishes of the 34% who want a hard Brexit.
On a different note, amendment 7 is up for discussion tomorrow which appears to empower Parliament to instruct the Prime Minister to extend negotiations if the deal looks shockingly bad in March 2019.
Some papers believe that the government might be defeated on this due to remain Tories voting with Labour?
Not sure what to make of this as the benefit of a hard close to the process in 15 months is to focus minds and force the issues. Some might say this is more project panic?!
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/12/why-guy-verhofstadt-angry-david-davis-because-britain-has-brexit-strategy
I have no time for Davis but Verhofstadt is aware that the agreement is not legally binding. He is also playing to an audience.
That's not just my opinion. Of the many I've come into contact with on a personal level, or read more scholarly articles by, I'm yet to meet a single colleague from elsewhere around the UK who believes Brexit will be beneficial for consumers. Some of these people are the UK leads for their subject area of trade regulation. No one of course asked these 'experts' what the effect leaving the EU might be on, say, the safety of cosmetic products or electrical items before the referendum. Getting some considered input on the likely outcomes of Brexit simply doesn't seem to have figured highly with our politicians, before or since unfortunately.
Thank you for your response to Dippys continuation of the myth that we can create our own laws better than those we work with the EU in developing...or are decreed to us in the mistaken belief of Leavers.
It was certainly much more measured than mine would have been.
Let's remind ourselves that my Miele vacuum cleaner comes with a no questions asked 2 year guarantee which I can activate anywhere in the EU. Your vacuum cleaner sadly only comes with a one year guarantee. This is because the U.K. has chosen to ignore this particular part of the EU directive, even while the politicians persist with the fiction that UK citizens are all buckling under the onerous weight of EU laws dictated by unelected little green men.
Usually @Dippenhall chips in at this point to assert that EU citizens pay for this because the manufacturers slap a price hike on the continental prices to cover the extra year. He has never, however, presented any evidence to back up this assertion. In fact I regularly compare and find the opposite situation. For example yesterday I bought a Philips hair trimmer as a prezzie. Amazon UK proposed to charge me £52 for it, while helpfully warning me that I could have a newer model in Jan which would cost me £60. I then checked the same model on the local market, and a reliable little Czech e shop was one of several to offer it for the equivalent of £38. It's not the £ devaluation to blame for the difference as it would still have been only £42 pre the vote.
So I think this is an admirable example of what is to come for U.K. consumers. Of course I can forgive @Dippenhall for now going round his house looking for every item he might replace in the next 2-3 years, sourcing a friend in Germany and then putting in a massive bulk order from Amazon.de for all that stuff before March 2019. Of course back in Brexit Britain he won't get any help with warranty after 12 months but if he sticks with German brands that won't matter.
You're welcome, Dipps....actually if you need anything cheap from the Continent which can fit in hand lugggage, give me a shout and I will bring it over for you. I ask only for your public recorded admission that this is evidence that your assertion above is not susbstantiated by real market evidence :-)
I genuinely don't know but would assume, maybe incorrectly, that the above Act(s) more than cover your guarantee from those lovely Germans.
Also, higher spec kit tends to have a better guarantee than, say, the Zanussi AirSpeed Lite ZAN2000A @ £68.95
Consumers here, on the whole, just aren't aware of their rights.
My guess is that the Tory rebels will fall into line because they always do. Hope that they show more moral fibre than I give them credit for.
mmmmm
Nice to know the Tories are comfortable with people openly expressing their fascist views in Parliament.
However, if you spent 5k on a TV and it developed a fault after the same period, you would be able to get it replaced / repaired as you could argue it has not lasted a reasonable amount of time for the price paid.
So yes, it does trump the EU guarantee.
Darn sovereignty.
All he has to do is purchase future Hoover's from Miele UK and benefit from a 6 year guarantee as opposed to the paltry 2 years offered in Deutschland
The price discrepancies mentioned above between places in the EU and the UK are a different matter.
And that if we stay in we will become a United States of Europe with an EU-appointed dictator superseding Parliament, and our entire armed forces will be folded into an EU army with Van Rompuy as commander in chief.
Transport was more expensive,, eating out more expensive , electrical goods and clothes more expensive. 85 euros for a fc nuremberg shirt. Next time i am over there in a few months time, give me a shout and i will bring some stuff over to you from the UK and give it to you.
You forget some of us have detached duty in europe. Projecrt fear rears its ugly head again.
Whereas the UK one only applies if you bought the item in the UK and is not valid abroad?
Of course if the rebels air their grievances in the Commons chamber they can't be prosecuted. Could be a spectacular own goal here from the far-right of the Tory party.
OK this is cut and pasted from the Which consumer website. I assume that everyone trusts Which on this matter? The bold highlights are mine, to respond to the points made above
Time limits on your rights
While there’s no time limit for approaching a retailer about a faulty product using the Sale of Goods Act, you only have six years from the date you received the goods (five years in Scotland) to enforce those rights. This does not mean that everything has to last six years from the date of purchase! It is the time limit for the customer to take a claim to court.
During this period, the retailer is legally required to deal with a customer who claims that their item does not conform to contract (is faulty) and decide what would be the reasonable amount of time to expect the goods to last. The six year period is not the same as a guarantee, but it does mean that even where the guarantee or warranty supplied with the product has ended, you may still have legal rights. (It’s worth noting that after six months, it’s down to the customer to prove the fault was there from the start, which could include providing an expert report).
So the SoG doesn't "trump" the EU directive, @cafcpolo, because it is not a guarantee. You can freely test that proposition when your mobile phone screen cracks after 18 months. Good luck trying to throw the SoG at Apple and Samsung. If you are in Europe, and didn't buy it on the company, Apple and Samsung have to cough up.
Furthermore you guys are making the rather arrogant assumption that the primitive continental countries don't also have national laws similar to the Sale of Goods Act. I have no idea, but I am willing to bet the Germans do.