Either way we are effectively breaking away from what is a very good deal (ie frictionless ties with 27 of our largest trading partners) as well as all the benefits and influence that comes with it...for a very very poor imitation of that deal.
Maybe the Brexiters should face reality and realise the world has moved on from colonial era Britain ruling the waves. We are now living in an open and global society and the days of hard borders, capital controls, nationalism and nativism are over. The rest of the world seems to embracing this; Brexiters are unique in wanting to regress to darker times.
If both sides are going to lose in this deal, it is because Remainers are going to be worse off than before in a worse off, poor Britain, whereas Brexiters hark for a world that ceased to exist a hundred years ago.
If Southbank is still upset that he has been betrayed, it is because time travel is technically impossible.
Either way we are effectively breaking away from what is a very good deal (ie frictionless ties with 27 of our largest trading partners) as well as all the benefits and influence that comes with it...for a very very poor imitation of that deal.
Maybe the Brexiters should face reality and realise the world has moved on from colonial era Britain ruling the waves. We are now living in an open and global society and the days of hard borders, capital controls, nationalism and nativism are over. The rest of the world seems to embracing this; Brexiters are unique in wanting to regress to darker times.
If both sides are going to lose in this deal, it is because Remainers are going to be worse off than before in a worse off, poor Britain, whereas Brexiters hark for a world that ceased to exist a hundred years ago.
If Southbank is still upset that he has been betrayed, it is because time travel is technically impossible.
Either way we are effectively breaking away from what is a very good deal (ie frictionless ties with 27 of our largest trading partners) as well as all the benefits and influence that comes with it...for a very very poor imitation of that deal.
Maybe the Brexiters should face reality and realise the world has moved on from colonial era Britain ruling the waves. We are now living in an open and global society and the days of hard borders, capital controls, nationalism and nativism are over. The rest of the world seems to embracing this; Brexiters are unique in wanting to regress to darker times.
If both sides are going to lose in this deal, it is because Remainers are going to be worse off than before in a worse off, poor Britain, whereas Brexiters hark for a world that ceased to exist a hundred years ago.
If Southbank is still upset that he has been betrayed, it is because time travel is technically impossible.
Really? I didn't know that ....
Duh!
A lot of people are moaning that this wasn't what they voted for because they thought we were going back to a more nationalist, closed border, capital controls Britain. Clearly they weren't paying attention.
I understand you seem to be in the extreme minority of Brexiters who see leaving the EU as a way forward to a more open trading relationship with the rest of the world but even you must be able to see that simply is not going to happen and rather than this sop of a deal (which admittedly has not been finalised) is a far worse alternative than simply staying in the EU and retaining all the benefits and influence that comes with our seat at the table.
There has not been a single time in history where Britain turning its back on Europe has ever worked out positively. This isn't any different. We should have a seat at the table and our seat has so far time and time again worked in our favour.
Either way we are effectively breaking away from what is a very good deal (ie frictionless ties with 27 of our largest trading partners) as well as all the benefits and influence that comes with it...for a very very poor imitation of that deal.
Maybe the Brexiters should face reality and realise the world has moved on from colonial era Britain ruling the waves. We are now living in an open and global society and the days of hard borders, capital controls, nationalism and nativism are over. The rest of the world seems to embracing this; Brexiters are unique in wanting to regress to darker times.
If both sides are going to lose in this deal, it is because Remainers are going to be worse off than before in a worse off, poor Britain, whereas Brexiters hark for a world that ceased to exist a hundred years ago.
If Southbank is still upset that he has been betrayed, it is because time travel is technically impossible.
Really? I didn't know that ....
Duh!
A lot of people are moaning that this wasn't what they voted for because they thought we were going back to a more nationalist, closed border, capital controls Britain. Clearly they weren't paying attention.
I understand you seem to be in the extreme minority of Brexiters who see leaving the EU as a way forward to a more open trading relationship with the rest of the world but even you must be able to see that simply is not going to happen and rather than this sop of a deal (which admittedly has not been finalised) is a far worse alternative than simply staying in the EU and retaining all the benefits and influence that comes with our seat at the table.
There has not been a single time in history where Britain turning its back on Europe has ever worked out positively. This isn't any different. We should have a seat at the table and our seat has so far time and time again worked in our favour.
I answered that earlier:
"Brexit will be watered down which is no good to anyone on either side. .
I accepted some time back that my vision of how we can work together with the EU will not be achieved at this stage because of the ineptitude on our side and the inflexibility on the other.
However, I am convinced that over the next few years, the concept of a multi-speed Europe will come to prominence. If handled in the right way as I have discussed previously, we can all still get to a good place."
Either way we are effectively breaking away from what is a very good deal (ie frictionless ties with 27 of our largest trading partners) as well as all the benefits and influence that comes with it...for a very very poor imitation of that deal.
Maybe the Brexiters should face reality and realise the world has moved on from colonial era Britain ruling the waves. We are now living in an open and global society and the days of hard borders, capital controls, nationalism and nativism are over. The rest of the world seems to embracing this; Brexiters are unique in wanting to regress to darker times.
If both sides are going to lose in this deal, it is because Remainers are going to be worse off than before in a worse off, poor Britain, whereas Brexiters hark for a world that ceased to exist a hundred years ago.
If Southbank is still upset that he has been betrayed, it is because time travel is technically impossible.
But people like Iain Duncan-Smith and John Redwood and their ilk have lost.
Redwood will clean up from those that move investors money abroad. He is the epitome of an enemy of the people. He will profit from our decline, read his advice in the FT and consider his role for Charles Stanley. Redwood doesn't care he will profit whatever outcome.
But people like Iain Duncan-Smith and John Redwood and their ilk have lost.
Redwood will clean up from those that move investors money abroad. He is the epitome of an enemy of the people. He will profit from our decline, read his advice in the FT and consider his role for Charles Stanley. Redwood doesn't care he will profit whatever outcome.
Agree. He’s an odious opportunist but he wanted a hard Brexit and he’s not likely to get it. Same as the slime balls IDS and Gove.
This is the LBC call that James O'Brien took earlier, the guy who called is scum, James didn't call him that, and gave him the rope to hang himself with
Either way we are effectively breaking away from what is a very good deal (ie frictionless ties with 27 of our largest trading partners) as well as all the benefits and influence that comes with it...for a very very poor imitation of that deal.
Maybe the Brexiters should face reality and realise the world has moved on from colonial era Britain ruling the waves. We are now living in an open and global society and the days of hard borders, capital controls, nationalism and nativism are over. The rest of the world seems to embracing this; Brexiters are unique in wanting to regress to darker times.
If both sides are going to lose in this deal, it is because Remainers are going to be worse off than before in a worse off, poor Britain, whereas Brexiters hark for a world that ceased to exist a hundred years ago.
If Southbank is still upset that he has been betrayed, it is because time travel is technically impossible.
Maybe we could start a another war with the argies, and our wonderful friends and allies 'the french' could supply them with some more missiles.
WE are reminded that leave won, it was the will of the British people and remainers like me should get over it. Now you introduce the concept of 'at this stage'. I am not sure what that means, brexit won and the stage is theirs, remainers like me are completely powerless and can only watch from the sidelines as the brexiters polish and parade their trophy because at the moment that is what winning is in danger of becoming, a moment of triumphalism that dominates time forever. Remainers will never have won at this 'stage' or ever. We are left, losers, gawping at the winners and for my part thinking 'people actually voted for that !!!???'. I wish somebody could tell a positive story about brexit, but maybe I am wishing on a star for a fairytale.
WE are reminded that leave won, it was the will of the British people and remainers like me should get over it. Now you introduce the concept of 'at this stage'. I am not sure what that means, brexit won and the stage is theirs, remainers like me are completely powerless and can only watch from the sidelines as the brexiters polish and parade their trophy because at the moment that is what winning is in danger of becoming, a moment of triumphalism that dominates time forever. Remainers will never have won at this 'stage' or ever. We are left, losers, gawping at the winners and for my part thinking 'people actually voted for that !!!???'. I wish somebody could tell a positive story about brexit, but maybe I am wishing on a star for a fairytale.
If you say so.
Read my other posts too. If it still doesn’t make sense, then little I can do.
Either way we are effectively breaking away from what is a very good deal (ie frictionless ties with 27 of our largest trading partners) as well as all the benefits and influence that comes with it...for a very very poor imitation of that deal.
Maybe the Brexiters should face reality and realise the world has moved on from colonial era Britain ruling the waves. We are now living in an open and global society and the days of hard borders, capital controls, nationalism and nativism are over. The rest of the world seems to embracing this; Brexiters are unique in wanting to regress to darker times.
If both sides are going to lose in this deal, it is because Remainers are going to be worse off than before in a worse off, poor Britain, whereas Brexiters hark for a world that ceased to exist a hundred years ago.
If Southbank is still upset that he has been betrayed, it is because time travel is technically impossible.
Maybe we could start a another war with the argies, and our wonderful friends and allies 'the french' could supply them with some more missiles.
The French are arms manufacturers and so is the United Kingdom. It happens that the Argentinians bought some of those French weapons. They could have just as easily bought some of ours. The United Kingdom sells weapons to pretty much anyone. UK made arms are in the hands of some of the most wicked people on earth. Scruples in international arms manufacturing are in very short supply regardless of the hand wringing of the governments.
I’m sure you are aware that our allies the French gave our military every assistance and codes available to try to minimise the effects of the Exocet missiles. I’m sure it helped but sadly not always enough.
It’s worth remembering the adage “live by the sword. Die by the sword”
WE are reminded that leave won, it was the will of the British people and remainers like me should get over it. Now you introduce the concept of 'at this stage'. I am not sure what that means, brexit won and the stage is theirs, remainers like me are completely powerless and can only watch from the sidelines as the brexiters polish and parade their trophy because at the moment that is what winning is in danger of becoming, a moment of triumphalism that dominates time forever. Remainers will never have won at this 'stage' or ever. We are left, losers, gawping at the winners and for my part thinking 'people actually voted for that !!!???'. I wish somebody could tell a positive story about brexit, but maybe I am wishing on a star for a fairytale.
If you say so.
Read my other posts too. If it still doesn’t make sense, then little I can do.
Stonemuse, you have mentioned a multi speed Europe which you have also said is now unlikely. I was respectful yet doubtful about your idea, but it was nevertheless interesting. However that isn't looking like the way brexit itself is turning out, for one thing is staying the same as the EU and keeping borders open as is proposed even brexit anyway? If I were an EU citizen I would be looking quite askance at the UK. On the face of it the UK initiates the whole shebang and doesn't know what it wants to get out of it, didn't we hear this week that the Tories have not discussed what the UK would be like post brexit, let alone the now you see it now you don't impact assessments. If the UK doesn't know what it wants, it is hardly likely that the EU can fill in the spaces for them and join up the dots. What seems to be suggested at the moment remains the UK striking deals with the rest of the world, that can somehow happen when also meshed into deals within the EU single market and customs union. The UK will have to be damn good to pull that one off, and if they can't will they blame the EU for that? Then there is control of the borders, that seems to have been abandoned, and EU law will have primacy regarding EU trade and EU citizens in the UK...how will that be worked out, and will it be a benefit of brexit anyway? If leaving the EU means that brexit voting deprived areas such as the North East will benefit, is there any plan or blueprint for that? @stonemuse you must be a person of immense faith and optimism if you can see any good coming out of all this. yesterday @Dippenhall suggested a good thing would not be helping to fund EU vanity projects and keeping the money in house as it were. My brief and vague take on that is the costs of running things in the new ways post brexit, plus the divorce bill is going to consume the UK's own 'vanity project' money for many years to come. I am actually trying to 'make sense' of it, but it all looks like nonsensical chaos. The cold viewpoint is to say yet again 'brexiters this is what I can see, can you explain what's good about it?'.
OK. At this stage and as far as I can tell at all stages henceforth. I wonder then when we will get to the point when all brexiters can see this is a lose lose situation for everybody and this process can be stopped.
Either way we are effectively breaking away from what is a very good deal (ie frictionless ties with 27 of our largest trading partners) as well as all the benefits and influence that comes with it...for a very very poor imitation of that deal.
Maybe the Brexiters should face reality and realise the world has moved on from colonial era Britain ruling the waves. We are now living in an open and global society and the days of hard borders, capital controls, nationalism and nativism are over. The rest of the world seems to embracing this; Brexiters are unique in wanting to regress to darker times.
If both sides are going to lose in this deal, it is because Remainers are going to be worse off than before in a worse off, poor Britain, whereas Brexiters hark for a world that ceased to exist a hundred years ago.
If Southbank is still upset that he has been betrayed, it is because time travel is technically impossible.
Maybe we could start a another war with the argies, and our wonderful friends and allies 'the french' could supply them with some more missiles.
Yeah, or the USA with a replacement for the General Belgrano....
OK. At this stage and as far as I can tell at all stages henceforth. I wonder then when we will get to the point when all brexiters can see this is a lose lose situation for everybody and this process can be stopped.
Ultimately, I don’t believe it will become a lose situation for everyone. But it will require movement on all sides. Again, I have previously outlined how I think it can work.
I have no crystal ball unfortunately, so can only give an opinion, just as you do.
At this stage the solution is, perhaps not surprisingly, a fudge.
Many twists and turns over the next 18 months, both in the UK and the EU.
Yeah. Years more of this. I foresee a long period of some kind of action by brexiters and reaction by remainers. I also believe the onus is 100% on the brexit voters in the UK to sort it out, not the Irish, not the EU, not the remainers. Clearly a person like me will have to suffer the consequences of brexit, but I am one of the lucky ones with dual nationality
Yeah. Years more of this. I foresee a long period of some kind of action by brexiters and reaction by remainers. I also believe the onus is 100% on the brexit voters in the UK to sort it out, not the Irish, not the EU, not the remainers. Clearly a person like me will have to suffer the consequences of brexit, but I am one of the lucky ones with dual nationality
I’m not sure how any action I take as a ‘Brexit voter’ will have any impact. It is the politicians who have that power, not me.
Public feeling may well sway politicians but, if anything, that will be towards another ‘referendum’ or not.
Gove’s comment yesterday that the electorate could ultimately decide has spiked my interest. I’m wondering if the top table are already laying the ground to pass the buck onto the plebs.
Worth reading ‘Brexit and British Politics’ by Evans & Menon to get an insight to what really led to Brexit and how it is changing our political arena.
I found it interesting to read that, apparently, ‘Project Fear’ from both sides made virtually no difference to how people actually voted in the end.
Gove’s comment yesterday that the electorate could ultimately decide has spiked my interest. I’m wondering if the top table are already laying the ground to pass the buck onto the plebs.
No surprise in that, is there? All any of them care about is their own careers
The collapse of trust in our politicians, our politics, our institutions and our post-war settlement is real and it is profound. It pervades every layer of British society: every class, every income level, every age group and every ideological leaning. The titled, the humble and the dogs in the street alike know that our democracy has gone wonky. The country is poorly run, by people who give the impression they are largely motivated by the prospect of personal advancement and the next opportunity to slip the dagger between one another’s ribs, by careerists who take a short-term view of big issues that properly require long-term responses, by parties that in the 21st century are outdated, unworkable coalitions of people who often have more in common with those who are nominally their opponents.
Yeah. Years more of this. I foresee a long period of some kind of action by brexiters and reaction by remainers. I also believe the onus is 100% on the brexit voters in the UK to sort it out, not the Irish, not the EU, not the remainers. Clearly a person like me will have to suffer the consequences of brexit, but I am one of the lucky ones with dual nationality
Incidentally, why are you lucky because of dual nationality? Intending to move to Ireland any time soon?
Either way we are effectively breaking away from what is a very good deal (ie frictionless ties with 27 of our largest trading partners) as well as all the benefits and influence that comes with it...for a very very poor imitation of that deal.
Maybe the Brexiters should face reality and realise the world has moved on from colonial era Britain ruling the waves. We are now living in an open and global society and the days of hard borders, capital controls, nationalism and nativism are over. The rest of the world seems to embracing this; Brexiters are unique in wanting to regress to darker times.
If both sides are going to lose in this deal, it is because Remainers are going to be worse off than before in a worse off, poor Britain, whereas Brexiters hark for a world that ceased to exist a hundred years ago.
If Southbank is still upset that he has been betrayed, it is because time travel is technically impossible.
Really? I didn't know that ....
Duh!
A lot of people are moaning that this wasn't what they voted for because they thought we were going back to a more nationalist, closed border, capital controls Britain. Clearly they weren't paying attention.
I understand you seem to be in the extreme minority of Brexiters who see leaving the EU as a way forward to a more open trading relationship with the rest of the world but even you must be able to see that simply is not going to happen and rather than this sop of a deal (which admittedly has not been finalised) is a far worse alternative than simply staying in the EU and retaining all the benefits and influence that comes with our seat at the table.
There has not been a single time in history where Britain turning its back on Europe has ever worked out positively. This isn't any different. We should have a seat at the table and our seat has so far time and time again worked in our favour.
I answered that earlier:
"Brexit will be watered down which is no good to anyone on either side. .
I accepted some time back that my vision of how we can work together with the EU will not be achieved at this stage because of the ineptitude on our side and the inflexibility on the other.
However, I am convinced that over the next few years, the concept of a multi-speed Europe will come to prominence. If handled in the right way as I have discussed previously, we can all still get to a good place."
When you talk of the inflexibility of "the other side", who was it asserted that the EU would definitely offer whatever the UK wanted, and why? It will be and has always been Norway or no way. It's nothing to do with ineptitude and inflexibility. The EU is the second biggest economy in the world - we are leaving. If we want a trade deal, we have to apply on their terms. HMG has had to arrive at this point whilst shaking the hard Brexit monkey off its back.
Now that article 50 has been triggered we have a deadline and no cards to play. Our best option is to stay in the SM/CU. We can then emerge in the same place as we were except for the European banking and medicine authorities migrating... and losing all representation and consultation. Sounds trivial but we are global leaders in four or five sectors of the world economy - pharma and financial services being two. It's either the CU/SM option or a sub-obtimal FTA which excludes us from all the EU FTAs with the rest of the world - overnight. That will be the binary choice offered in 2018
On your other point, many agree that multi-speed is happening. Some may call it an oversimplification but perhaps it's two speed: Eurozone and the rest. We were never in the Euro and now that we are leaving, we have no influence. We will see what reforms they put in place once Germany and Italy resolve who's in charge early in 2018. Countries such as Poland and Hungary have different challenges.
Comments
Maybe the Brexiters should face reality and realise the world has moved on from colonial era Britain ruling the waves. We are now living in an open and global society and the days of hard borders, capital controls, nationalism and nativism are over. The rest of the world seems to embracing this; Brexiters are unique in wanting to regress to darker times.
If both sides are going to lose in this deal, it is because Remainers are going to be worse off than before in a worse off, poor Britain, whereas Brexiters hark for a world that ceased to exist a hundred years ago.
If Southbank is still upset that he has been betrayed, it is because time travel is technically impossible.
Duh!
I understand you seem to be in the extreme minority of Brexiters who see leaving the EU as a way forward to a more open trading relationship with the rest of the world but even you must be able to see that simply is not going to happen and rather than this sop of a deal (which admittedly has not been finalised) is a far worse alternative than simply staying in the EU and retaining all the benefits and influence that comes with our seat at the table.
There has not been a single time in history where Britain turning its back on Europe has ever worked out positively. This isn't any different. We should have a seat at the table and our seat has so far time and time again worked in our favour.
"Brexit will be watered down which is no good to anyone on either side. .
I accepted some time back that my vision of how we can work together with the EU will not be achieved at this stage because of the ineptitude on our side and the inflexibility on the other.
However, I am convinced that over the next few years, the concept of a multi-speed Europe will come to prominence. If handled in the right way as I have discussed previously, we can all still get to a good place."
I am not sure what that means, brexit won and the stage is theirs, remainers like me are completely powerless and can only watch from the sidelines as the brexiters polish and parade their trophy because at the moment that is what winning is in danger of becoming, a moment of triumphalism that dominates time forever.
Remainers will never have won at this 'stage' or ever. We are left, losers, gawping at the winners and for my part thinking 'people actually voted for that !!!???'.
I wish somebody could tell a positive story about brexit, but maybe I am wishing on a star for a fairytale.
Read my other posts too. If it still doesn’t make sense, then little I can do.
I’m sure you are aware that our allies the French gave our military every assistance and codes available to try to minimise the effects of the Exocet missiles. I’m sure it helped but sadly not always enough.
It’s worth remembering the adage “live by the sword. Die by the sword”
I was respectful yet doubtful about your idea, but it was nevertheless interesting.
However that isn't looking like the way brexit itself is turning out, for one thing is staying the same as the EU and keeping borders open as is proposed even brexit anyway?
If I were an EU citizen I would be looking quite askance at the UK. On the face of it the UK initiates the whole shebang and doesn't know what it wants to get out of it, didn't we hear this week that the Tories have not discussed what the UK would be like post brexit, let alone the now you see it now you don't impact assessments. If the UK doesn't know what it wants, it is hardly likely that the EU can fill in the spaces for them and join up the dots.
What seems to be suggested at the moment remains the UK striking deals with the rest of the world, that can somehow happen when also meshed into deals within the EU single market and customs union. The UK will have to be damn good to pull that one off, and if they can't will they blame the EU for that? Then there is control of the borders, that seems to have been abandoned, and EU law will have primacy regarding EU trade and EU citizens in the UK...how will that be worked out, and will it be a benefit of brexit anyway?
If leaving the EU means that brexit voting deprived areas such as the North East will benefit, is there any plan or blueprint for that?
@stonemuse you must be a person of immense faith and optimism if you can see any good coming out of all this. yesterday @Dippenhall suggested a good thing would not be helping to fund EU vanity projects and keeping the money in house as it were. My brief and vague take on that is the costs of running things in the new ways post brexit, plus the divorce bill is going to consume the UK's own 'vanity project' money for many years to come.
I am actually trying to 'make sense' of it, but it all looks like nonsensical chaos.
The cold viewpoint is to say yet again 'brexiters this is what I can see, can you explain what's good about it?'.
At this stage and as far as I can tell at all stages henceforth.
I wonder then when we will get to the point when all brexiters can see this is a lose lose situation for everybody and this process can be stopped.
I have no crystal ball unfortunately, so can only give an opinion, just as you do.
At this stage the solution is, perhaps not surprisingly, a fudge.
Many twists and turns over the next 18 months, both in the UK and the EU.
I foresee a long period of some kind of action by brexiters and reaction by remainers.
I also believe the onus is 100% on the brexit voters in the UK to sort it out, not the Irish, not the EU, not the remainers.
Clearly a person like me will have to suffer the consequences of brexit, but I am one of the lucky ones with dual nationality
Public feeling may well sway politicians but, if anything, that will be towards another ‘referendum’ or not.
I found it interesting to read that, apparently, ‘Project Fear’ from both sides made virtually no difference to how people actually voted in the end.
heraldscotland.com/news/15386597.Chris_Deerin_This_growing_gap_between_the_governed_and_the_governing/
Not sure you will find the ‘grass is greener’.
Now that article 50 has been triggered we have a deadline and no cards to play. Our best option is to stay in the SM/CU. We can then emerge in the same place as we were except for the European banking and medicine authorities migrating... and losing all representation and consultation. Sounds trivial but we are global leaders in four or five sectors of the world economy - pharma and financial services being two. It's either the CU/SM option or a sub-obtimal FTA which excludes us from all the EU FTAs with the rest of the world - overnight. That will be the binary choice offered in 2018
On your other point, many agree that multi-speed is happening. Some may call it an oversimplification but perhaps it's two speed: Eurozone and the rest. We were never in the Euro and now that we are leaving, we have no influence. We will see what reforms they put in place once Germany and Italy resolve who's in charge early in 2018. Countries such as Poland and Hungary have different challenges.