I am reposting a post I made 2 months ago which might explain why me and other leavers are not on this thread. It has been obvious for a long time that the remainer led Tory Government would sell out the 17m Leave voters. Today's agreement capitulates on all the key things that leaving the EU would mean and confirms what I wrote below. They are selling out the 17m and the political consequences of this will happen down the line.
'The UK is being slowly suckered into a very bad deal with the EU. May has conceded publicly and privately that the UK will pay about 40b Euros for effectively a transition deal, ie a prolongation of UK membership of the EU until at least 2021. In exchange the UK has received precisely nothing except vague assurances that a trade deal will be discussed at some point, which we all knew would have to happen anyway.
In the meantime there is nobody in the EU or in the German government (the only one that really matters) who has said anything other than that the 4 freedoms are indivisible, ie that continued membership of or access to the single market will involve continued free movement of labour and jurusdiction by the ECJ.
So, we have committed to pay a large sum of money for what? In order to be told at some future point, when it suits the EU and after France and Germany have been able to lure businesses to their countries because of the indecision they themselves have prolonged, that access to the single market will mean effectively continued control by the EU under another name.
In the 4 years during which this charade is being played out, the Remainers who dominate political discourse in this country will continue to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt in order to demoralise those who supported Brexit. Look, they will say, we have lost money, we have a worse trade deal and no extra sovereignty, is it worth leaving the EU for this?
Those of us who want to see the referendum result carried out need to realise that the choice is not between a bad deal and no deal, but between Brexit and no Brexit.
So you left the thread because all the things that Remainers warned would happen...have happened?
Oh, and how have the Tories sold out the third of the voters who voted for Brexit? They are just following what the Leave campaign pledged in the first place.
Also, Remainers do not dominate the discourse at all. The government is controlled by the hard right Brexit wing of the Tory party, with Remainer Theresa a leader in name only. The media is controlled by right-wing Brexiteers. Politicians who support blocking Brexit face harrassment, abuse or worse. A Remain-supporting MP was murdered by a Brexiter.
If Leavers run everything-how come we are not leaving?
If by the end of 2019 the EU has removed the UK from its membership then we would have left.
In name only if we are still having to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court and accept rules and laws from the EU. The referendum quaetion was not-we would like to leave the EU but carry on as if we are still a member.
No it wasn't I agree - the question was should the UK remain a member of the EU or should the UK Leave the EU. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm nothing but persistent so I will ask you the same question for the umpteeth time (I promise not to ask it again) - what percentage of the 52% who voted to 'Leave the EU' do you believe share your version of Brexit?
What percentage thought that leaving the EU means remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court would be a better question-answer none.
Why wasn't the question "should the UK leave European Union and the jurisdiction of the European court?" then ? It's pretty important to be clear when constructing the question you will ask in a referendum.
You might have thought you were being asked something more than "should we stay in the EU" but, again, that's on you.
Remainers should be happy today. They have supported the overturning of the biggest democratic vote in this country without a shot being fired in order to get their own way.
As per @bobmunro's quotes above, we've got exactly what the Leave campaigners promised us, so surely it is you who should be delighted.
I am reposting a post I made 2 months ago which might explain why me and other leavers are not on this thread. It has been obvious for a long time that the remainer led Tory Government would sell out the 17m Leave voters. Today's agreement capitulates on all the key things that leaving the EU would mean and confirms what I wrote below. They are selling out the 17m and the political consequences of this will happen down the line.
'The UK is being slowly suckered into a very bad deal with the EU. May has conceded publicly and privately that the UK will pay about 40b Euros for effectively a transition deal, ie a prolongation of UK membership of the EU until at least 2021. In exchange the UK has received precisely nothing except vague assurances that a trade deal will be discussed at some point, which we all knew would have to happen anyway.
In the meantime there is nobody in the EU or in the German government (the only one that really matters) who has said anything other than that the 4 freedoms are indivisible, ie that continued membership of or access to the single market will involve continued free movement of labour and jurusdiction by the ECJ.
So, we have committed to pay a large sum of money for what? In order to be told at some future point, when it suits the EU and after France and Germany have been able to lure businesses to their countries because of the indecision they themselves have prolonged, that access to the single market will mean effectively continued control by the EU under another name.
In the 4 years during which this charade is being played out, the Remainers who dominate political discourse in this country will continue to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt in order to demoralise those who supported Brexit. Look, they will say, we have lost money, we have a worse trade deal and no extra sovereignty, is it worth leaving the EU for this?
Those of us who want to see the referendum result carried out need to realise that the choice is not between a bad deal and no deal, but between Brexit and no Brexit.
So you left the thread because all the things that Remainers warned would happen...have happened?
Oh, and how have the Tories sold out the third of the voters who voted for Brexit? They are just following what the Leave campaign pledged in the first place.
Also, Remainers do not dominate the discourse at all. The government is controlled by the hard right Brexit wing of the Tory party, with Remainer Theresa a leader in name only. The media is controlled by right-wing Brexiteers. Politicians who support blocking Brexit face harrassment, abuse or worse. A Remain-supporting MP was murdered by a Brexiter.
If Leavers run everything-how come we are not leaving?
If by the end of 2019 the EU has removed the UK from its membership then we would have left.
In name only if we are still having to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court and accept rules and laws from the EU. The referendum quaetion was not-we would like to leave the EU but carry on as if we are still a member.
No it wasn't I agree - the question was should the UK remain a member of the EU or should the UK Leave the EU. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm nothing but persistent so I will ask you the same question for the umpteeth time (I promise not to ask it again) - what percentage of the 52% who voted to 'Leave the EU' do you believe share your version of Brexit?
What percentage thought that leaving the EU means remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court would be a better question-answer none.
Why wasn't the question "should the UK leave European Union and the jurisdiction of the European court?" then ? It's pretty important to be clear when constructing the question you will ask in a referendum.
You might have thought you were being asked something more than "should we stay in the EU" but, again, that's on you.
Remainers should be happy today. They have supported the overturning of the biggest democratic vote in this country without a shot being fired in order to get their own way.
I wouldn’t worry too much ... basically nothing at all has been agreed:
Page 1 of the report:
Remarks: This report is put forward with a view to the meeting of the European Council (Article 50) of 14-15 December 2017. Under the caveat that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, the joint commitments set out in this joint report shall be reflected in the Withdrawal Agreement in full detail. This does not prejudge any adaptations that might be appropriate in case transitional arrangements were to be agreed in the second phase of the negotiations, and is without prejudice to discussions on the framework of the future relationship.
I am reposting a post I made 2 months ago which might explain why me and other leavers are not on this thread. It has been obvious for a long time that the remainer led Tory Government would sell out the 17m Leave voters. Today's agreement capitulates on all the key things that leaving the EU would mean and confirms what I wrote below. They are selling out the 17m and the political consequences of this will happen down the line.
'The UK is being slowly suckered into a very bad deal with the EU. May has conceded publicly and privately that the UK will pay about 40b Euros for effectively a transition deal, ie a prolongation of UK membership of the EU until at least 2021. In exchange the UK has received precisely nothing except vague assurances that a trade deal will be discussed at some point, which we all knew would have to happen anyway.
In the meantime there is nobody in the EU or in the German government (the only one that really matters) who has said anything other than that the 4 freedoms are indivisible, ie that continued membership of or access to the single market will involve continued free movement of labour and jurusdiction by the ECJ.
So, we have committed to pay a large sum of money for what? In order to be told at some future point, when it suits the EU and after France and Germany have been able to lure businesses to their countries because of the indecision they themselves have prolonged, that access to the single market will mean effectively continued control by the EU under another name.
In the 4 years during which this charade is being played out, the Remainers who dominate political discourse in this country will continue to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt in order to demoralise those who supported Brexit. Look, they will say, we have lost money, we have a worse trade deal and no extra sovereignty, is it worth leaving the EU for this?
Those of us who want to see the referendum result carried out need to realise that the choice is not between a bad deal and no deal, but between Brexit and no Brexit.
So you left the thread because all the things that Remainers warned would happen...have happened?
Oh, and how have the Tories sold out the third of the voters who voted for Brexit? They are just following what the Leave campaign pledged in the first place.
Also, Remainers do not dominate the discourse at all. The government is controlled by the hard right Brexit wing of the Tory party, with Remainer Theresa a leader in name only. The media is controlled by right-wing Brexiteers. Politicians who support blocking Brexit face harrassment, abuse or worse. A Remain-supporting MP was murdered by a Brexiter.
If Leavers run everything-how come we are not leaving?
If by the end of 2019 the EU has removed the UK from its membership then we would have left.
In name only if we are still having to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court and accept rules and laws from the EU. The referendum quaetion was not-we would like to leave the EU but carry on as if we are still a member.
No it wasn't I agree - the question was should the UK remain a member of the EU or should the UK Leave the EU. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm nothing but persistent so I will ask you the same question for the umpteeth time (I promise not to ask it again) - what percentage of the 52% who voted to 'Leave the EU' do you believe share your version of Brexit?
What percentage thought that leaving the EU means remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court would be a better question-answer none.
Why wasn't the question "should the UK leave European Union and the jurisdiction of the European court?" then ? It's pretty important to be clear when constructing the question you will ask in a referendum.
You might have thought you were being asked something more than "should we stay in the EU" but, again, that's on you.
Remainers should be happy today. They have supported the overturning of the biggest democratic vote in this country without a shot being fired in order to get their own way.
I won't be happy until Brexit is stopped totally. Not even this one foot in the door nonsense makes me happy.
We had a non-binding poll not held under normal democratic rules (ie no one can be held liable for any lies, false statements, fraud or vote manipulation) and a third of the voters voted to leave, which given polling in the week before and after polling day indicated a Remain win, is a statistical blip.
Polling today indicates Remain would win decisively if a vote was held tomorrow. And support for a hard Brexit hovers at 10%. I don't care what happened 18 months ago, I care about what voters want now. And voters want Brexit cancelled.
I'm on the side of democracy. Which is why I want Brexit cancelled.
I am reposting a post I made 2 months ago which might explain why me and other leavers are not on this thread. It has been obvious for a long time that the remainer led Tory Government would sell out the 17m Leave voters. Today's agreement capitulates on all the key things that leaving the EU would mean and confirms what I wrote below. They are selling out the 17m and the political consequences of this will happen down the line.
'The UK is being slowly suckered into a very bad deal with the EU. May has conceded publicly and privately that the UK will pay about 40b Euros for effectively a transition deal, ie a prolongation of UK membership of the EU until at least 2021. In exchange the UK has received precisely nothing except vague assurances that a trade deal will be discussed at some point, which we all knew would have to happen anyway.
In the meantime there is nobody in the EU or in the German government (the only one that really matters) who has said anything other than that the 4 freedoms are indivisible, ie that continued membership of or access to the single market will involve continued free movement of labour and jurusdiction by the ECJ.
So, we have committed to pay a large sum of money for what? In order to be told at some future point, when it suits the EU and after France and Germany have been able to lure businesses to their countries because of the indecision they themselves have prolonged, that access to the single market will mean effectively continued control by the EU under another name.
In the 4 years during which this charade is being played out, the Remainers who dominate political discourse in this country will continue to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt in order to demoralise those who supported Brexit. Look, they will say, we have lost money, we have a worse trade deal and no extra sovereignty, is it worth leaving the EU for this?
Those of us who want to see the referendum result carried out need to realise that the choice is not between a bad deal and no deal, but between Brexit and no Brexit.
So you left the thread because all the things that Remainers warned would happen...have happened?
Oh, and how have the Tories sold out the third of the voters who voted for Brexit? They are just following what the Leave campaign pledged in the first place.
Also, Remainers do not dominate the discourse at all. The government is controlled by the hard right Brexit wing of the Tory party, with Remainer Theresa a leader in name only. The media is controlled by right-wing Brexiteers. Politicians who support blocking Brexit face harrassment, abuse or worse. A Remain-supporting MP was murdered by a Brexiter.
If Leavers run everything-how come we are not leaving?
If by the end of 2019 the EU has removed the UK from its membership then we would have left.
In name only if we are still having to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court and accept rules and laws from the EU. The referendum quaetion was not-we would like to leave the EU but carry on as if we are still a member.
No it wasn't I agree - the question was should the UK remain a member of the EU or should the UK Leave the EU. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm nothing but persistent so I will ask you the same question for the umpteeth time (I promise not to ask it again) - what percentage of the 52% who voted to 'Leave the EU' do you believe share your version of Brexit?
What percentage thought that leaving the EU means remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court would be a better question-answer none.
Why wasn't the question "should the UK leave European Union and the jurisdiction of the European court?" then ? It's pretty important to be clear when constructing the question you will ask in a referendum.
You might have thought you were being asked something more than "should we stay in the EU" but, again, that's on you.
Remainers should be happy today. They have supported the overturning of the biggest democratic vote in this country without a shot being fired in order to get their own way.
I wouldn’t worry too much ... basically nothing at all has been agreed:
Page 1 of the report:
Remarks: This report is put forward with a view to the meeting of the European Council (Article 50) of 14-15 December 2017. Under the caveat that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, the joint commitments set out in this joint report shall be reflected in the Withdrawal Agreement in full detail. This does not prejudge any adaptations that might be appropriate in case transitional arrangements were to be agreed in the second phase of the negotiations, and is without prejudice to discussions on the framework of the future relationship.
This is true but Theresa knows this is the best deal she is going to get without reneging on her idiotic pledge to take us out of the SM/CU without a democratic mandate. And David Davis is already trying to abandon ship because he knows what a clusterfuck this is.
So unless we decide to either cancel Brexit or go for the Swiss or Norway option (again, both countries Vote Leave and every prominent Brexiter said we should be emulating in terms of a Brexit deal), this is the best we are going to get.
Southbank, when you were listening to all the prominent Brexiters such as Farage, Hannan, Davis, Johnson etc. prattling on about how we could get a Norway or Swiss deal and stay in the SM/CU, why did you hear 'definitely out of the SM/CU, hard Brexit'?
A lot of people are jumping to a lot of conclusions are here. The most important part was always going to be the trade negotiations. Let's wait and see what we can negotiate here. One thing continues, most Remainers continue be arrogant and pompous, and think anyone who is a Leaver is dumb and stupid.
100% agree. Think it's why many of the leave orientated posters have disappeared as noted by @ShootersHillGuru. It's made the thread a bit sterile. I think the country is coming together with Theresa May tories and kier starmer labour not a million miles apart. Both remain very vague.
So are you in the arrogant and pompous camp, or the dumb and stupid camp?
I'm Pompous, camp and dumb - so I don't know where I belong.
A lot of people are jumping to a lot of conclusions are here. The most important part was always going to be the trade negotiations. Let's wait and see what we can negotiate here. One thing continues, most Remainers continue be arrogant and pompous, and think anyone who is a Leaver is dumb and stupid.
100% agree. Think it's why many of the leave orientated posters have disappeared as noted by @ShootersHillGuru. It's made the thread a bit sterile. I think the country is coming together with Theresa May tories and kier starmer labour not a million miles apart. Both remain very vague.
So are you in the arrogant and pompous camp, or the dumb and stupid camp?
I'm Pompous, camp and dumb - so I don't know where I belong.
We all belong to the fine body of Charlton fans (with the exception of @Big_Bad_World, who I think deserves refugee status with us), everything else is just froth.
I am reposting a post I made 2 months ago which might explain why me and other leavers are not on this thread. It has been obvious for a long time that the remainer led Tory Government would sell out the 17m Leave voters. Today's agreement capitulates on all the key things that leaving the EU would mean and confirms what I wrote below. They are selling out the 17m and the political consequences of this will happen down the line.
'The UK is being slowly suckered into a very bad deal with the EU. May has conceded publicly and privately that the UK will pay about 40b Euros for effectively a transition deal, ie a prolongation of UK membership of the EU until at least 2021. In exchange the UK has received precisely nothing except vague assurances that a trade deal will be discussed at some point, which we all knew would have to happen anyway.
In the meantime there is nobody in the EU or in the German government (the only one that really matters) who has said anything other than that the 4 freedoms are indivisible, ie that continued membership of or access to the single market will involve continued free movement of labour and jurusdiction by the ECJ.
So, we have committed to pay a large sum of money for what? In order to be told at some future point, when it suits the EU and after France and Germany have been able to lure businesses to their countries because of the indecision they themselves have prolonged, that access to the single market will mean effectively continued control by the EU under another name.
In the 4 years during which this charade is being played out, the Remainers who dominate political discourse in this country will continue to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt in order to demoralise those who supported Brexit. Look, they will say, we have lost money, we have a worse trade deal and no extra sovereignty, is it worth leaving the EU for this?
Those of us who want to see the referendum result carried out need to realise that the choice is not between a bad deal and no deal, but between Brexit and no Brexit.
So you left the thread because all the things that Remainers warned would happen...have happened?
Oh, and how have the Tories sold out the third of the voters who voted for Brexit? They are just following what the Leave campaign pledged in the first place.
Also, Remainers do not dominate the discourse at all. The government is controlled by the hard right Brexit wing of the Tory party, with Remainer Theresa a leader in name only. The media is controlled by right-wing Brexiteers. Politicians who support blocking Brexit face harrassment, abuse or worse. A Remain-supporting MP was murdered by a Brexiter.
If Leavers run everything-how come we are not leaving?
If by the end of 2019 the EU has removed the UK from its membership then we would have left.
In name only if we are still having to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court and accept rules and laws from the EU. The referendum quaetion was not-we would like to leave the EU but carry on as if we are still a member.
No it wasn't I agree - the question was should the UK remain a member of the EU or should the UK Leave the EU. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm nothing but persistent so I will ask you the same question for the umpteeth time (I promise not to ask it again) - what percentage of the 52% who voted to 'Leave the EU' do you believe share your version of Brexit?
What percentage thought that leaving the EU means remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court would be a better question-answer none.
Why wasn't the question "should the UK leave European Union and the jurisdiction of the European court?" then ? It's pretty important to be clear when constructing the question you will ask in a referendum.
You might have thought you were being asked something more than "should we stay in the EU" but, again, that's on you.
Remainers should be happy today. They have supported the overturning of the biggest democratic vote in this country without a shot being fired in order to get their own way.
I wasn't aware that the UK retreated from its expressed desire to leave the EU and, in fact, the agreed text is predicated upon the fact that the UK is leaving.
I am reposting a post I made 2 months ago which might explain why me and other leavers are not on this thread. It has been obvious for a long time that the remainer led Tory Government would sell out the 17m Leave voters. Today's agreement capitulates on all the key things that leaving the EU would mean and confirms what I wrote below. They are selling out the 17m and the political consequences of this will happen down the line.
'The UK is being slowly suckered into a very bad deal with the EU. May has conceded publicly and privately that the UK will pay about 40b Euros for effectively a transition deal, ie a prolongation of UK membership of the EU until at least 2021. In exchange the UK has received precisely nothing except vague assurances that a trade deal will be discussed at some point, which we all knew would have to happen anyway.
In the meantime there is nobody in the EU or in the German government (the only one that really matters) who has said anything other than that the 4 freedoms are indivisible, ie that continued membership of or access to the single market will involve continued free movement of labour and jurusdiction by the ECJ.
So, we have committed to pay a large sum of money for what? In order to be told at some future point, when it suits the EU and after France and Germany have been able to lure businesses to their countries because of the indecision they themselves have prolonged, that access to the single market will mean effectively continued control by the EU under another name.
In the 4 years during which this charade is being played out, the Remainers who dominate political discourse in this country will continue to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt in order to demoralise those who supported Brexit. Look, they will say, we have lost money, we have a worse trade deal and no extra sovereignty, is it worth leaving the EU for this?
Those of us who want to see the referendum result carried out need to realise that the choice is not between a bad deal and no deal, but between Brexit and no Brexit.
So you left the thread because all the things that Remainers warned would happen...have happened?
Oh, and how have the Tories sold out the third of the voters who voted for Brexit? They are just following what the Leave campaign pledged in the first place.
Also, Remainers do not dominate the discourse at all. The government is controlled by the hard right Brexit wing of the Tory party, with Remainer Theresa a leader in name only. The media is controlled by right-wing Brexiteers. Politicians who support blocking Brexit face harrassment, abuse or worse. A Remain-supporting MP was murdered by a Brexiter.
If Leavers run everything-how come we are not leaving?
If by the end of 2019 the EU has removed the UK from its membership then we would have left.
In name only if we are still having to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court and accept rules and laws from the EU. The referendum quaetion was not-we would like to leave the EU but carry on as if we are still a member.
No it wasn't I agree - the question was should the UK remain a member of the EU or should the UK Leave the EU. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm nothing but persistent so I will ask you the same question for the umpteeth time (I promise not to ask it again) - what percentage of the 52% who voted to 'Leave the EU' do you believe share your version of Brexit?
What percentage thought that leaving the EU means remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court would be a better question-answer none.
Why wasn't the question "should the UK leave European Union and the jurisdiction of the European court?" then ? It's pretty important to be clear when constructing the question you will ask in a referendum.
You might have thought you were being asked something more than "should we stay in the EU" but, again, that's on you.
Remainers should be happy today. They have supported the overturning of the biggest democratic vote in this country without a shot being fired in order to get their own way.
I won't be happy until Brexit is stopped totally. Not even this one foot in the door nonsense makes me happy.
We had a non-binding poll not held under normal democratic rules (ie no one can be held liable for any lies, false statements, fraud or vote manipulation) and a third of the voters voted to leave, which given polling in the week before and after polling day indicated a Remain win, is a statistical blip.
Polling today indicates Remain would win decisively if a vote was held tomorrow. And support for a hard Brexit hovers at 10%. I don't care what happened 18 months ago, I care about what voters want now. And voters want Brexit cancelled.
I'm on the side of democracy. Which is why I want Brexit cancelled.
I am reposting a post I made 2 months ago which might explain why me and other leavers are not on this thread. It has been obvious for a long time that the remainer led Tory Government would sell out the 17m Leave voters. Today's agreement capitulates on all the key things that leaving the EU would mean and confirms what I wrote below. They are selling out the 17m and the political consequences of this will happen down the line.
'The UK is being slowly suckered into a very bad deal with the EU. May has conceded publicly and privately that the UK will pay about 40b Euros for effectively a transition deal, ie a prolongation of UK membership of the EU until at least 2021. In exchange the UK has received precisely nothing except vague assurances that a trade deal will be discussed at some point, which we all knew would have to happen anyway.
In the meantime there is nobody in the EU or in the German government (the only one that really matters) who has said anything other than that the 4 freedoms are indivisible, ie that continued membership of or access to the single market will involve continued free movement of labour and jurusdiction by the ECJ.
So, we have committed to pay a large sum of money for what? In order to be told at some future point, when it suits the EU and after France and Germany have been able to lure businesses to their countries because of the indecision they themselves have prolonged, that access to the single market will mean effectively continued control by the EU under another name.
In the 4 years during which this charade is being played out, the Remainers who dominate political discourse in this country will continue to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt in order to demoralise those who supported Brexit. Look, they will say, we have lost money, we have a worse trade deal and no extra sovereignty, is it worth leaving the EU for this?
Those of us who want to see the referendum result carried out need to realise that the choice is not between a bad deal and no deal, but between Brexit and no Brexit.
So you left the thread because all the things that Remainers warned would happen...have happened?
Oh, and how have the Tories sold out the third of the voters who voted for Brexit? They are just following what the Leave campaign pledged in the first place.
Also, Remainers do not dominate the discourse at all. The government is controlled by the hard right Brexit wing of the Tory party, with Remainer Theresa a leader in name only. The media is controlled by right-wing Brexiteers. Politicians who support blocking Brexit face harrassment, abuse or worse. A Remain-supporting MP was murdered by a Brexiter.
If Leavers run everything-how come we are not leaving?
If by the end of 2019 the EU has removed the UK from its membership then we would have left.
In name only if we are still having to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court and accept rules and laws from the EU. The referendum quaetion was not-we would like to leave the EU but carry on as if we are still a member.
No it wasn't I agree - the question was should the UK remain a member of the EU or should the UK Leave the EU. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm nothing but persistent so I will ask you the same question for the umpteeth time (I promise not to ask it again) - what percentage of the 52% who voted to 'Leave the EU' do you believe share your version of Brexit?
What percentage thought that leaving the EU means remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court would be a better question-answer none.
Why wasn't the question "should the UK leave European Union and the jurisdiction of the European court?" then ? It's pretty important to be clear when constructing the question you will ask in a referendum.
You might have thought you were being asked something more than "should we stay in the EU" but, again, that's on you.
Remainers should be happy today. They have supported the overturning of the biggest democratic vote in this country without a shot being fired in order to get their own way.
I wasn't aware that the UK retreated from its expressed desire to leave the EU and, in fact, the agreed text is predicated upon the fact that the UK is leaving.
It'd be a pretty crap deal if it was predicated on the UK remaining in the EU.
I am reposting a post I made 2 months ago which might explain why me and other leavers are not on this thread. It has been obvious for a long time that the remainer led Tory Government would sell out the 17m Leave voters. Today's agreement capitulates on all the key things that leaving the EU would mean and confirms what I wrote below. They are selling out the 17m and the political consequences of this will happen down the line.
'The UK is being slowly suckered into a very bad deal with the EU. May has conceded publicly and privately that the UK will pay about 40b Euros for effectively a transition deal, ie a prolongation of UK membership of the EU until at least 2021. In exchange the UK has received precisely nothing except vague assurances that a trade deal will be discussed at some point, which we all knew would have to happen anyway.
In the meantime there is nobody in the EU or in the German government (the only one that really matters) who has said anything other than that the 4 freedoms are indivisible, ie that continued membership of or access to the single market will involve continued free movement of labour and jurusdiction by the ECJ.
So, we have committed to pay a large sum of money for what? In order to be told at some future point, when it suits the EU and after France and Germany have been able to lure businesses to their countries because of the indecision they themselves have prolonged, that access to the single market will mean effectively continued control by the EU under another name.
In the 4 years during which this charade is being played out, the Remainers who dominate political discourse in this country will continue to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt in order to demoralise those who supported Brexit. Look, they will say, we have lost money, we have a worse trade deal and no extra sovereignty, is it worth leaving the EU for this?
Those of us who want to see the referendum result carried out need to realise that the choice is not between a bad deal and no deal, but between Brexit and no Brexit.
So you left the thread because all the things that Remainers warned would happen...have happened?
Oh, and how have the Tories sold out the third of the voters who voted for Brexit? They are just following what the Leave campaign pledged in the first place.
Also, Remainers do not dominate the discourse at all. The government is controlled by the hard right Brexit wing of the Tory party, with Remainer Theresa a leader in name only. The media is controlled by right-wing Brexiteers. Politicians who support blocking Brexit face harrassment, abuse or worse. A Remain-supporting MP was murdered by a Brexiter.
If Leavers run everything-how come we are not leaving?
If by the end of 2019 the EU has removed the UK from its membership then we would have left.
In name only if we are still having to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court and accept rules and laws from the EU. The referendum quaetion was not-we would like to leave the EU but carry on as if we are still a member.
No it wasn't I agree - the question was should the UK remain a member of the EU or should the UK Leave the EU. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm nothing but persistent so I will ask you the same question for the umpteeth time (I promise not to ask it again) - what percentage of the 52% who voted to 'Leave the EU' do you believe share your version of Brexit?
What percentage thought that leaving the EU means remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court would be a better question-answer none.
Why wasn't the question "should the UK leave European Union and the jurisdiction of the European court?" then ? It's pretty important to be clear when constructing the question you will ask in a referendum.
You might have thought you were being asked something more than "should we stay in the EU" but, again, that's on you.
Remainers should be happy today. They have supported the overturning of the biggest democratic vote in this country without a shot being fired in order to get their own way.
I wouldn’t worry too much ... basically nothing at all has been agreed:
Page 1 of the report:
Remarks: This report is put forward with a view to the meeting of the European Council (Article 50) of 14-15 December 2017. Under the caveat that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, the joint commitments set out in this joint report shall be reflected in the Withdrawal Agreement in full detail. This does not prejudge any adaptations that might be appropriate in case transitional arrangements were to be agreed in the second phase of the negotiations, and is without prejudice to discussions on the framework of the future relationship.
You don't want to be being all sensible and reading stuff, you know....
The other important thing to note, however, is that it intended that, with the approval of the EU27 member states, it will form part of the Withdrawal Agreement. The trading relationship will not be fully determined until later, for the very simple reason that no trade agreement of the kind of complexity that will be involved could be negotiated in the available time.
Listening to Dominic Raab on the radio this evening, I fear that this particular member of the Leading Brexiter Brain's Trust (I have my doubts that there is more than one brain between them), does not seem to understand what Phase 2 of the current negotiations is about.
I am reposting a post I made 2 months ago which might explain why me and other leavers are not on this thread. It has been obvious for a long time that the remainer led Tory Government would sell out the 17m Leave voters. Today's agreement capitulates on all the key things that leaving the EU would mean and confirms what I wrote below. They are selling out the 17m and the political consequences of this will happen down the line.
'The UK is being slowly suckered into a very bad deal with the EU. May has conceded publicly and privately that the UK will pay about 40b Euros for effectively a transition deal, ie a prolongation of UK membership of the EU until at least 2021. In exchange the UK has received precisely nothing except vague assurances that a trade deal will be discussed at some point, which we all knew would have to happen anyway.
In the meantime there is nobody in the EU or in the German government (the only one that really matters) who has said anything other than that the 4 freedoms are indivisible, ie that continued membership of or access to the single market will involve continued free movement of labour and jurusdiction by the ECJ.
So, we have committed to pay a large sum of money for what? In order to be told at some future point, when it suits the EU and after France and Germany have been able to lure businesses to their countries because of the indecision they themselves have prolonged, that access to the single market will mean effectively continued control by the EU under another name.
In the 4 years during which this charade is being played out, the Remainers who dominate political discourse in this country will continue to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt in order to demoralise those who supported Brexit. Look, they will say, we have lost money, we have a worse trade deal and no extra sovereignty, is it worth leaving the EU for this?
Those of us who want to see the referendum result carried out need to realise that the choice is not between a bad deal and no deal, but between Brexit and no Brexit.
So you left the thread because all the things that Remainers warned would happen...have happened?
Oh, and how have the Tories sold out the third of the voters who voted for Brexit? They are just following what the Leave campaign pledged in the first place.
Also, Remainers do not dominate the discourse at all. The government is controlled by the hard right Brexit wing of the Tory party, with Remainer Theresa a leader in name only. The media is controlled by right-wing Brexiteers. Politicians who support blocking Brexit face harrassment, abuse or worse. A Remain-supporting MP was murdered by a Brexiter.
If Leavers run everything-how come we are not leaving?
If by the end of 2019 the EU has removed the UK from its membership then we would have left.
In name only if we are still having to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court and accept rules and laws from the EU. The referendum quaetion was not-we would like to leave the EU but carry on as if we are still a member.
No it wasn't I agree - the question was should the UK remain a member of the EU or should the UK Leave the EU. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm nothing but persistent so I will ask you the same question for the umpteeth time (I promise not to ask it again) - what percentage of the 52% who voted to 'Leave the EU' do you believe share your version of Brexit?
What percentage thought that leaving the EU means remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court would be a better question-answer none.
Why wasn't the question "should the UK leave European Union and the jurisdiction of the European court?" then ? It's pretty important to be clear when constructing the question you will ask in a referendum.
You might have thought you were being asked something more than "should we stay in the EU" but, again, that's on you.
Remainers should be happy today. They have supported the overturning of the biggest democratic vote in this country without a shot being fired in order to get their own way.
I wouldn’t worry too much ... basically nothing at all has been agreed:
Page 1 of the report:
Remarks: This report is put forward with a view to the meeting of the European Council (Article 50) of 14-15 December 2017. Under the caveat that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, the joint commitments set out in this joint report shall be reflected in the Withdrawal Agreement in full detail. This does not prejudge any adaptations that might be appropriate in case transitional arrangements were to be agreed in the second phase of the negotiations, and is without prejudice to discussions on the framework of the future relationship.
This is true but Theresa knows this is the best deal she is going to get without reneging on her idiotic pledge to take us out of the SM/CU without a democratic mandate. And David Davis is already trying to abandon ship because he knows what a clusterfuck this is.
So unless we decide to either cancel Brexit or go for the Swiss or Norway option (again, both countries Vote Leave and every prominent Brexiter said we should be emulating in terms of a Brexit deal), this is the best we are going to get.
Southbank, when you were listening to all the prominent Brexiters such as Farage, Hannan, Davis, Johnson etc. prattling on about how we could get a Norway or Swiss deal and stay in the SM/CU, why did you hear 'definitely out of the SM/CU, hard Brexit'?
It will be cancelled or watered down as we all knew a long time ago.
I accepted some time back that my vision of how we can work together with the EU will not be achieved at this stage because of the ineptitude on our side and the inflexibility on the other.
However, I am convinced that over the next few years, the concept of a multi-speed Europe will come to prominence. If handled in the right way as I have discussed previously, we can all still get to a good place.
I am reposting a post I made 2 months ago which might explain why me and other leavers are not on this thread. It has been obvious for a long time that the remainer led Tory Government would sell out the 17m Leave voters. Today's agreement capitulates on all the key things that leaving the EU would mean and confirms what I wrote below. They are selling out the 17m and the political consequences of this will happen down the line.
'The UK is being slowly suckered into a very bad deal with the EU. May has conceded publicly and privately that the UK will pay about 40b Euros for effectively a transition deal, ie a prolongation of UK membership of the EU until at least 2021. In exchange the UK has received precisely nothing except vague assurances that a trade deal will be discussed at some point, which we all knew would have to happen anyway.
In the meantime there is nobody in the EU or in the German government (the only one that really matters) who has said anything other than that the 4 freedoms are indivisible, ie that continued membership of or access to the single market will involve continued free movement of labour and jurusdiction by the ECJ.
So, we have committed to pay a large sum of money for what? In order to be told at some future point, when it suits the EU and after France and Germany have been able to lure businesses to their countries because of the indecision they themselves have prolonged, that access to the single market will mean effectively continued control by the EU under another name.
In the 4 years during which this charade is being played out, the Remainers who dominate political discourse in this country will continue to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt in order to demoralise those who supported Brexit. Look, they will say, we have lost money, we have a worse trade deal and no extra sovereignty, is it worth leaving the EU for this?
Those of us who want to see the referendum result carried out need to realise that the choice is not between a bad deal and no deal, but between Brexit and no Brexit.
So you left the thread because all the things that Remainers warned would happen...have happened?
Oh, and how have the Tories sold out the third of the voters who voted for Brexit? They are just following what the Leave campaign pledged in the first place.
Also, Remainers do not dominate the discourse at all. The government is controlled by the hard right Brexit wing of the Tory party, with Remainer Theresa a leader in name only. The media is controlled by right-wing Brexiteers. Politicians who support blocking Brexit face harrassment, abuse or worse. A Remain-supporting MP was murdered by a Brexiter.
If Leavers run everything-how come we are not leaving?
If by the end of 2019 the EU has removed the UK from its membership then we would have left.
In name only if we are still having to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court and accept rules and laws from the EU. The referendum quaetion was not-we would like to leave the EU but carry on as if we are still a member.
No it wasn't I agree - the question was should the UK remain a member of the EU or should the UK Leave the EU. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm nothing but persistent so I will ask you the same question for the umpteeth time (I promise not to ask it again) - what percentage of the 52% who voted to 'Leave the EU' do you believe share your version of Brexit?
What percentage thought that leaving the EU means remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court would be a better question-answer none.
Why wasn't the question "should the UK leave European Union and the jurisdiction of the European court?" then ? It's pretty important to be clear when constructing the question you will ask in a referendum.
You might have thought you were being asked something more than "should we stay in the EU" but, again, that's on you.
Remainers should be happy today. They have supported the overturning of the biggest democratic vote in this country without a shot being fired in order to get their own way.
I won't be happy until Brexit is stopped totally. Not even this one foot in the door nonsense makes me happy.
We had a non-binding poll not held under normal democratic rules (ie no one can be held liable for any lies, false statements, fraud or vote manipulation) and a third of the voters voted to leave, which given polling in the week before and after polling day indicated a Remain win, is a statistical blip.
Polling today indicates Remain would win decisively if a vote was held tomorrow. And support for a hard Brexit hovers at 10%. I don't care what happened 18 months ago, I care about what voters want now. And voters want Brexit cancelled.
I'm on the side of democracy. Which is why I want Brexit cancelled.
George Orwell could not have bettered your last sentence.
A lot of people are jumping to a lot of conclusions are here. The most important part was always going to be the trade negotiations. Let's wait and see what we can negotiate here. One thing continues, most Remainers continue be arrogant and pompous, and think anyone who is a Leaver is dumb and stupid.
100% agree. Think it's why many of the leave orientated posters have disappeared as noted by @ShootersHillGuru. It's made the thread a bit sterile. I think the country is coming together with Theresa May tories and kier starmer labour not a million miles apart. Both remain very vague.
Too soon to make much comment yet. The trade negotiations are, as they were always going to be, crucial.
On a tangent, I came across something today of which I was completely unaware. The Canadian/EU trade deal (CETA), agreed but still to be ratified, is often held up as one of our choices for the future, as is the Norway model.
And yet, apparently, a couple of months ago, Angela Merkel was prepared to put the many years of negotiation with Canada at risk, by assuring the Greens that she would drop ratification of CETA if they sided with her in a coalition!
I am astonished how unprincipled this is. Equivalent, probably worse, then May’s agreement with the DUP.
I am reposting a post I made 2 months ago which might explain why me and other leavers are not on this thread. It has been obvious for a long time that the remainer led Tory Government would sell out the 17m Leave voters. Today's agreement capitulates on all the key things that leaving the EU would mean and confirms what I wrote below. They are selling out the 17m and the political consequences of this will happen down the line.
'The UK is being slowly suckered into a very bad deal with the EU. May has conceded publicly and privately that the UK will pay about 40b Euros for effectively a transition deal, ie a prolongation of UK membership of the EU until at least 2021. In exchange the UK has received precisely nothing except vague assurances that a trade deal will be discussed at some point, which we all knew would have to happen anyway.
In the meantime there is nobody in the EU or in the German government (the only one that really matters) who has said anything other than that the 4 freedoms are indivisible, ie that continued membership of or access to the single market will involve continued free movement of labour and jurusdiction by the ECJ.
So, we have committed to pay a large sum of money for what? In order to be told at some future point, when it suits the EU and after France and Germany have been able to lure businesses to their countries because of the indecision they themselves have prolonged, that access to the single market will mean effectively continued control by the EU under another name.
In the 4 years during which this charade is being played out, the Remainers who dominate political discourse in this country will continue to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt in order to demoralise those who supported Brexit. Look, they will say, we have lost money, we have a worse trade deal and no extra sovereignty, is it worth leaving the EU for this?
Those of us who want to see the referendum result carried out need to realise that the choice is not between a bad deal and no deal, but between Brexit and no Brexit.
So you left the thread because all the things that Remainers warned would happen...have happened?
Oh, and how have the Tories sold out the third of the voters who voted for Brexit? They are just following what the Leave campaign pledged in the first place.
Also, Remainers do not dominate the discourse at all. The government is controlled by the hard right Brexit wing of the Tory party, with Remainer Theresa a leader in name only. The media is controlled by right-wing Brexiteers. Politicians who support blocking Brexit face harrassment, abuse or worse. A Remain-supporting MP was murdered by a Brexiter.
If Leavers run everything-how come we are not leaving?
If by the end of 2019 the EU has removed the UK from its membership then we would have left.
In name only if we are still having to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court and accept rules and laws from the EU. The referendum quaetion was not-we would like to leave the EU but carry on as if we are still a member.
No it wasn't I agree - the question was should the UK remain a member of the EU or should the UK Leave the EU. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm nothing but persistent so I will ask you the same question for the umpteeth time (I promise not to ask it again) - what percentage of the 52% who voted to 'Leave the EU' do you believe share your version of Brexit?
What percentage thought that leaving the EU means remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court would be a better question-answer none.
Why wasn't the question "should the UK leave European Union and the jurisdiction of the European court?" then ? It's pretty important to be clear when constructing the question you will ask in a referendum.
You might have thought you were being asked something more than "should we stay in the EU" but, again, that's on you.
Remainers should be happy today. They have supported the overturning of the biggest democratic vote in this country without a shot being fired in order to get their own way.
I won't be happy until Brexit is stopped totally. Not even this one foot in the door nonsense makes me happy.
We had a non-binding poll not held under normal democratic rules (ie no one can be held liable for any lies, false statements, fraud or vote manipulation) and a third of the voters voted to leave, which given polling in the week before and after polling day indicated a Remain win, is a statistical blip.
Polling today indicates Remain would win decisively if a vote was held tomorrow. And support for a hard Brexit hovers at 10%. I don't care what happened 18 months ago, I care about what voters want now. And voters want Brexit cancelled.
I'm on the side of democracy. Which is why I want Brexit cancelled.
George Orwell could not have bettered your last sentence.
I don't think you have ever read George Orwell or even understood what his views were otherwise you would not have written this post.
You're in the minority. Forcing your will on the rest of us is not democratic.
I am reposting a post I made 2 months ago which might explain why me and other leavers are not on this thread. It has been obvious for a long time that the remainer led Tory Government would sell out the 17m Leave voters. Today's agreement capitulates on all the key things that leaving the EU would mean and confirms what I wrote below. They are selling out the 17m and the political consequences of this will happen down the line.
'The UK is being slowly suckered into a very bad deal with the EU. May has conceded publicly and privately that the UK will pay about 40b Euros for effectively a transition deal, ie a prolongation of UK membership of the EU until at least 2021. In exchange the UK has received precisely nothing except vague assurances that a trade deal will be discussed at some point, which we all knew would have to happen anyway.
In the meantime there is nobody in the EU or in the German government (the only one that really matters) who has said anything other than that the 4 freedoms are indivisible, ie that continued membership of or access to the single market will involve continued free movement of labour and jurusdiction by the ECJ.
So, we have committed to pay a large sum of money for what? In order to be told at some future point, when it suits the EU and after France and Germany have been able to lure businesses to their countries because of the indecision they themselves have prolonged, that access to the single market will mean effectively continued control by the EU under another name.
In the 4 years during which this charade is being played out, the Remainers who dominate political discourse in this country will continue to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt in order to demoralise those who supported Brexit. Look, they will say, we have lost money, we have a worse trade deal and no extra sovereignty, is it worth leaving the EU for this?
Those of us who want to see the referendum result carried out need to realise that the choice is not between a bad deal and no deal, but between Brexit and no Brexit.
So you left the thread because all the things that Remainers warned would happen...have happened?
Oh, and how have the Tories sold out the third of the voters who voted for Brexit? They are just following what the Leave campaign pledged in the first place.
Also, Remainers do not dominate the discourse at all. The government is controlled by the hard right Brexit wing of the Tory party, with Remainer Theresa a leader in name only. The media is controlled by right-wing Brexiteers. Politicians who support blocking Brexit face harrassment, abuse or worse. A Remain-supporting MP was murdered by a Brexiter.
If Leavers run everything-how come we are not leaving?
If by the end of 2019 the EU has removed the UK from its membership then we would have left.
In name only if we are still having to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court and accept rules and laws from the EU. The referendum quaetion was not-we would like to leave the EU but carry on as if we are still a member.
No it wasn't I agree - the question was should the UK remain a member of the EU or should the UK Leave the EU. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm nothing but persistent so I will ask you the same question for the umpteeth time (I promise not to ask it again) - what percentage of the 52% who voted to 'Leave the EU' do you believe share your version of Brexit?
What percentage thought that leaving the EU means remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court would be a better question-answer none.
Why wasn't the question "should the UK leave European Union and the jurisdiction of the European court?" then ? It's pretty important to be clear when constructing the question you will ask in a referendum.
You might have thought you were being asked something more than "should we stay in the EU" but, again, that's on you.
Remainers should be happy today. They have supported the overturning of the biggest democratic vote in this country without a shot being fired in order to get their own way.
I won't be happy until Brexit is stopped totally. Not even this one foot in the door nonsense makes me happy.
We had a non-binding poll not held under normal democratic rules (ie no one can be held liable for any lies, false statements, fraud or vote manipulation) and a third of the voters voted to leave, which given polling in the week before and after polling day indicated a Remain win, is a statistical blip.
Polling today indicates Remain would win decisively if a vote was held tomorrow. And support for a hard Brexit hovers at 10%. I don't care what happened 18 months ago, I care about what voters want now. And voters want Brexit cancelled.
I'm on the side of democracy. Which is why I want Brexit cancelled.
A lot of people are jumping to a lot of conclusions are here. The most important part was always going to be the trade negotiations. Let's wait and see what we can negotiate here. One thing continues, most Remainers continue be arrogant and pompous, and think anyone who is a Leaver is dumb and stupid.
100% agree. Think it's why many of the leave orientated posters have disappeared as noted by @ShootersHillGuru. It's made the thread a bit sterile. I think the country is coming together with Theresa May tories and kier starmer labour not a million miles apart. Both remain very vague.
Too soon to make much comment yet. The trade negotiations are, as they were always going to be, crucial.
On a tangent, I came across something today of which I was completely unaware. The Canadian/EU trade deal (CETA), agreed but still to be ratified, is often held up as one of our choices for the future, as is the Norway model.
And yet, apparently, a couple of months ago, Angela Merkel was prepared to put the many years of negotiation with Canada at risk, by assuring the Greens that she would drop ratification of CETA if they sided with her in a coalition!
I am astonished how unprincipled this is. Equivalent, probably worse, then May’s agreement with the DUP.
What are your thoughts over the last few weeks mate
As you know i value your input from the leave side, just keen to read what you think personally
I think my earlier comment covers my current thinking.
Brexit will be watered down which is no good to anyone on either side. .
I accepted some time back that my vision of how we can work together with the EU will not be achieved at this stage because of the ineptitude on our side and the inflexibility on the other.
However, I am convinced that over the next few years, the concept of a multi-speed Europe will come to prominence. If handled in the right way as I have discussed previously, we can all still get to a good place.
I am reposting a post I made 2 months ago which might explain why me and other leavers are not on this thread. It has been obvious for a long time that the remainer led Tory Government would sell out the 17m Leave voters. Today's agreement capitulates on all the key things that leaving the EU would mean and confirms what I wrote below. They are selling out the 17m and the political consequences of this will happen down the line.
'The UK is being slowly suckered into a very bad deal with the EU. May has conceded publicly and privately that the UK will pay about 40b Euros for effectively a transition deal, ie a prolongation of UK membership of the EU until at least 2021. In exchange the UK has received precisely nothing except vague assurances that a trade deal will be discussed at some point, which we all knew would have to happen anyway.
In the meantime there is nobody in the EU or in the German government (the only one that really matters) who has said anything other than that the 4 freedoms are indivisible, ie that continued membership of or access to the single market will involve continued free movement of labour and jurusdiction by the ECJ.
So, we have committed to pay a large sum of money for what? In order to be told at some future point, when it suits the EU and after France and Germany have been able to lure businesses to their countries because of the indecision they themselves have prolonged, that access to the single market will mean effectively continued control by the EU under another name.
In the 4 years during which this charade is being played out, the Remainers who dominate political discourse in this country will continue to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt in order to demoralise those who supported Brexit. Look, they will say, we have lost money, we have a worse trade deal and no extra sovereignty, is it worth leaving the EU for this?
Those of us who want to see the referendum result carried out need to realise that the choice is not between a bad deal and no deal, but between Brexit and no Brexit.
So you left the thread because all the things that Remainers warned would happen...have happened?
Oh, and how have the Tories sold out the third of the voters who voted for Brexit? They are just following what the Leave campaign pledged in the first place.
Also, Remainers do not dominate the discourse at all. The government is controlled by the hard right Brexit wing of the Tory party, with Remainer Theresa a leader in name only. The media is controlled by right-wing Brexiteers. Politicians who support blocking Brexit face harrassment, abuse or worse. A Remain-supporting MP was murdered by a Brexiter.
If Leavers run everything-how come we are not leaving?
If by the end of 2019 the EU has removed the UK from its membership then we would have left.
In name only if we are still having to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court and accept rules and laws from the EU. The referendum quaetion was not-we would like to leave the EU but carry on as if we are still a member.
No it wasn't I agree - the question was should the UK remain a member of the EU or should the UK Leave the EU. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm nothing but persistent so I will ask you the same question for the umpteeth time (I promise not to ask it again) - what percentage of the 52% who voted to 'Leave the EU' do you believe share your version of Brexit?
What percentage thought that leaving the EU means remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court would be a better question-answer none.
Why wasn't the question "should the UK leave European Union and the jurisdiction of the European court?" then ? It's pretty important to be clear when constructing the question you will ask in a referendum.
You might have thought you were being asked something more than "should we stay in the EU" but, again, that's on you.
Remainers should be happy today. They have supported the overturning of the biggest democratic vote in this country without a shot being fired in order to get their own way.
If there are blue passports then the vote won't have been overturned.
A lot of people are jumping to a lot of conclusions are here. The most important part was always going to be the trade negotiations. Let's wait and see what we can negotiate here. One thing continues, most Remainers continue be arrogant and pompous, and think anyone who is a Leaver is dumb and stupid.
100% agree. Think it's why many of the leave orientated posters have disappeared as noted by @ShootersHillGuru. It's made the thread a bit sterile. I think the country is coming together with Theresa May tories and kier starmer labour not a million miles apart. Both remain very vague.
Too soon to make much comment yet. The trade negotiations are, as they were always going to be, crucial.
On a tangent, I came across something today of which I was completely unaware. The Canadian/EU trade deal (CETA), agreed but still to be ratified, is often held up as one of our choices for the future, as is the Norway model.
And yet, apparently, a couple of months ago, Angela Merkel was prepared to put the many years of negotiation with Canada at risk, by assuring the Greens that she would drop ratification of CETA if they sided with her in a coalition!
I am astonished how unprincipled this is. Equivalent, probably worse, then May’s agreement with the DUP.
What are your thoughts over the last few weeks mate
As you know i value your input from the leave side, just keen to read what you think personally
I think my earlier comment covers my current thinking.
Brexit will be watered down which is no good to anyone on either side. .
I accepted some time back that my vision of how we can work together with the EU will not be achieved at this stage because of the ineptitude on our side and the inflexibility on the other.
However, I am convinced that over the next few years, the concept of a multi-speed Europe will come to prominence. If handled in the right way as I have discussed previously, we can all still get to a good place.
As posted before, multi speed really means Eurozone and the rest. The eurozone needs to do stuff to improve the architecture and fix banks, regs etc. but that's a different discussion.
A "watered down" Brexit might well be the best way for everybody to learn about what can and can't be done without crashing the economy / pissing off our trade partners. If by "watered down" you mean regulatory alignment to ensure that business and financial services continue uninterupted then that works for me.
We've had a load of ex-journalists promising all sorts to the electorate and this week we've found out that they will compromise on anything just to keep the show rolling on. Gove and Johnson are simply media players with no substance and no real understanding of the petrol and matches with which they have been playing.
They were devastated when Leave won and are somewhat relieved that the adults in London, Dublin and Brussels are able to keep the wheels on.
However this is not to say that we should (or can) put everything back in the box and pretend nothing happened. The UK has arrived through the first gate and we have another 12 months of this to go. The next phase appears to be far more complex and many might find it harder to swallow what is really on offer from the EU.
The UK will always retain the choice: deal or no deal!
I am reposting a post I made 2 months ago which might explain why me and other leavers are not on this thread. It has been obvious for a long time that the remainer led Tory Government would sell out the 17m Leave voters. Today's agreement capitulates on all the key things that leaving the EU would mean and confirms what I wrote below. They are selling out the 17m and the political consequences of this will happen down the line.
'The UK is being slowly suckered into a very bad deal with the EU. May has conceded publicly and privately that the UK will pay about 40b Euros for effectively a transition deal, ie a prolongation of UK membership of the EU until at least 2021. In exchange the UK has received precisely nothing except vague assurances that a trade deal will be discussed at some point, which we all knew would have to happen anyway.
In the meantime there is nobody in the EU or in the German government (the only one that really matters) who has said anything other than that the 4 freedoms are indivisible, ie that continued membership of or access to the single market will involve continued free movement of labour and jurusdiction by the ECJ.
So, we have committed to pay a large sum of money for what? In order to be told at some future point, when it suits the EU and after France and Germany have been able to lure businesses to their countries because of the indecision they themselves have prolonged, that access to the single market will mean effectively continued control by the EU under another name.
In the 4 years during which this charade is being played out, the Remainers who dominate political discourse in this country will continue to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt in order to demoralise those who supported Brexit. Look, they will say, we have lost money, we have a worse trade deal and no extra sovereignty, is it worth leaving the EU for this?
Those of us who want to see the referendum result carried out need to realise that the choice is not between a bad deal and no deal, but between Brexit and no Brexit.
So you left the thread because all the things that Remainers warned would happen...have happened?
Oh, and how have the Tories sold out the third of the voters who voted for Brexit? They are just following what the Leave campaign pledged in the first place.
Also, Remainers do not dominate the discourse at all. The government is controlled by the hard right Brexit wing of the Tory party, with Remainer Theresa a leader in name only. The media is controlled by right-wing Brexiteers. Politicians who support blocking Brexit face harrassment, abuse or worse. A Remain-supporting MP was murdered by a Brexiter.
If Leavers run everything-how come we are not leaving?
If by the end of 2019 the EU has removed the UK from its membership then we would have left.
In name only if we are still having to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court and accept rules and laws from the EU. The referendum quaetion was not-we would like to leave the EU but carry on as if we are still a member.
No it wasn't I agree - the question was should the UK remain a member of the EU or should the UK Leave the EU. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm nothing but persistent so I will ask you the same question for the umpteeth time (I promise not to ask it again) - what percentage of the 52% who voted to 'Leave the EU' do you believe share your version of Brexit?
What percentage thought that leaving the EU means remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court would be a better question-answer none.
Why wasn't the question "should the UK leave European Union and the jurisdiction of the European court?" then ? It's pretty important to be clear when constructing the question you will ask in a referendum.
You might have thought you were being asked something more than "should we stay in the EU" but, again, that's on you.
Remainers should be happy today. They have supported the overturning of the biggest democratic vote in this country without a shot being fired in order to get their own way.
I won't be happy until Brexit is stopped totally. Not even this one foot in the door nonsense makes me happy.
We had a non-binding poll not held under normal democratic rules (ie no one can be held liable for any lies, false statements, fraud or vote manipulation) and a third of the voters voted to leave, which given polling in the week before and after polling day indicated a Remain win, is a statistical blip.
Polling today indicates Remain would win decisively if a vote was held tomorrow. And support for a hard Brexit hovers at 10%. I don't care what happened 18 months ago, I care about what voters want now. And voters want Brexit cancelled.
I'm on the side of democracy. Which is why I want Brexit cancelled.
George Orwell could not have bettered your last sentence.
I don't think you have ever read George Orwell or even understood what his views were otherwise you would not have written this post.
You're in the minority. Forcing your will on the rest of us is not democratic.
A competion
Which is Orwell and which is Fiish?
War is peace Ignorance is strength Overturning democracy is democratic Freedom is slavery
You are right. I am depressed that the half of the country that has no party leader on its side apart from the DUP and UKIP is being sold down the river. It is a very bad day for democracy.
I am reposting a post I made 2 months ago which might explain why me and other leavers are not on this thread. It has been obvious for a long time that the remainer led Tory Government would sell out the 17m Leave voters. Today's agreement capitulates on all the key things that leaving the EU would mean and confirms what I wrote below. They are selling out the 17m and the political consequences of this will happen down the line.
'The UK is being slowly suckered into a very bad deal with the EU. May has conceded publicly and privately that the UK will pay about 40b Euros for effectively a transition deal, ie a prolongation of UK membership of the EU until at least 2021. In exchange the UK has received precisely nothing except vague assurances that a trade deal will be discussed at some point, which we all knew would have to happen anyway.
In the meantime there is nobody in the EU or in the German government (the only one that really matters) who has said anything other than that the 4 freedoms are indivisible, ie that continued membership of or access to the single market will involve continued free movement of labour and jurusdiction by the ECJ.
So, we have committed to pay a large sum of money for what? In order to be told at some future point, when it suits the EU and after France and Germany have been able to lure businesses to their countries because of the indecision they themselves have prolonged, that access to the single market will mean effectively continued control by the EU under another name.
In the 4 years during which this charade is being played out, the Remainers who dominate political discourse in this country will continue to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt in order to demoralise those who supported Brexit. Look, they will say, we have lost money, we have a worse trade deal and no extra sovereignty, is it worth leaving the EU for this?
Those of us who want to see the referendum result carried out need to realise that the choice is not between a bad deal and no deal, but between Brexit and no Brexit.
So you left the thread because all the things that Remainers warned would happen...have happened?
Oh, and how have the Tories sold out the third of the voters who voted for Brexit? They are just following what the Leave campaign pledged in the first place.
Also, Remainers do not dominate the discourse at all. The government is controlled by the hard right Brexit wing of the Tory party, with Remainer Theresa a leader in name only. The media is controlled by right-wing Brexiteers. Politicians who support blocking Brexit face harrassment, abuse or worse. A Remain-supporting MP was murdered by a Brexiter.
If Leavers run everything-how come we are not leaving?
If by the end of 2019 the EU has removed the UK from its membership then we would have left.
In name only if we are still having to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court and accept rules and laws from the EU. The referendum quaetion was not-we would like to leave the EU but carry on as if we are still a member.
No it wasn't I agree - the question was should the UK remain a member of the EU or should the UK Leave the EU. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm nothing but persistent so I will ask you the same question for the umpteeth time (I promise not to ask it again) - what percentage of the 52% who voted to 'Leave the EU' do you believe share your version of Brexit?
What percentage thought that leaving the EU means remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court would be a better question-answer none.
Why wasn't the question "should the UK leave European Union and the jurisdiction of the European court?" then ? It's pretty important to be clear when constructing the question you will ask in a referendum.
You might have thought you were being asked something more than "should we stay in the EU" but, again, that's on you.
Remainers should be happy today. They have supported the overturning of the biggest democratic vote in this country without a shot being fired in order to get their own way.
I won't be happy until Brexit is stopped totally. Not even this one foot in the door nonsense makes me happy.
We had a non-binding poll not held under normal democratic rules (ie no one can be held liable for any lies, false statements, fraud or vote manipulation) and a third of the voters voted to leave, which given polling in the week before and after polling day indicated a Remain win, is a statistical blip.
Polling today indicates Remain would win decisively if a vote was held tomorrow. And support for a hard Brexit hovers at 10%. I don't care what happened 18 months ago, I care about what voters want now. And voters want Brexit cancelled.
I'm on the side of democracy. Which is why I want Brexit cancelled.
George Orwell could not have bettered your last sentence.
I don't think you have ever read George Orwell or even understood what his views were otherwise you would not have written this post.
You're in the minority. Forcing your will on the rest of us is not democratic.
A competion
Which is Orwell and which is Fiish?
War is peace Ignorance is strength Overturning democracy is democratic Freedom is slavery
It doesn't matter how many times you repeat the mantra, there was nothing democratic about the referendum.
I am reposting a post I made 2 months ago which might explain why me and other leavers are not on this thread. It has been obvious for a long time that the remainer led Tory Government would sell out the 17m Leave voters. Today's agreement capitulates on all the key things that leaving the EU would mean and confirms what I wrote below. They are selling out the 17m and the political consequences of this will happen down the line.
'The UK is being slowly suckered into a very bad deal with the EU. May has conceded publicly and privately that the UK will pay about 40b Euros for effectively a transition deal, ie a prolongation of UK membership of the EU until at least 2021. In exchange the UK has received precisely nothing except vague assurances that a trade deal will be discussed at some point, which we all knew would have to happen anyway.
In the meantime there is nobody in the EU or in the German government (the only one that really matters) who has said anything other than that the 4 freedoms are indivisible, ie that continued membership of or access to the single market will involve continued free movement of labour and jurusdiction by the ECJ.
So, we have committed to pay a large sum of money for what? In order to be told at some future point, when it suits the EU and after France and Germany have been able to lure businesses to their countries because of the indecision they themselves have prolonged, that access to the single market will mean effectively continued control by the EU under another name.
In the 4 years during which this charade is being played out, the Remainers who dominate political discourse in this country will continue to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt in order to demoralise those who supported Brexit. Look, they will say, we have lost money, we have a worse trade deal and no extra sovereignty, is it worth leaving the EU for this?
Those of us who want to see the referendum result carried out need to realise that the choice is not between a bad deal and no deal, but between Brexit and no Brexit.
So you left the thread because all the things that Remainers warned would happen...have happened?
Oh, and how have the Tories sold out the third of the voters who voted for Brexit? They are just following what the Leave campaign pledged in the first place.
Also, Remainers do not dominate the discourse at all. The government is controlled by the hard right Brexit wing of the Tory party, with Remainer Theresa a leader in name only. The media is controlled by right-wing Brexiteers. Politicians who support blocking Brexit face harrassment, abuse or worse. A Remain-supporting MP was murdered by a Brexiter.
If Leavers run everything-how come we are not leaving?
If by the end of 2019 the EU has removed the UK from its membership then we would have left.
In name only if we are still having to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court and accept rules and laws from the EU. The referendum quaetion was not-we would like to leave the EU but carry on as if we are still a member.
No it wasn't I agree - the question was should the UK remain a member of the EU or should the UK Leave the EU. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm nothing but persistent so I will ask you the same question for the umpteeth time (I promise not to ask it again) - what percentage of the 52% who voted to 'Leave the EU' do you believe share your version of Brexit?
What percentage thought that leaving the EU means remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court would be a better question-answer none.
Why wasn't the question "should the UK leave European Union and the jurisdiction of the European court?" then ? It's pretty important to be clear when constructing the question you will ask in a referendum.
You might have thought you were being asked something more than "should we stay in the EU" but, again, that's on you.
Remainers should be happy today. They have supported the overturning of the biggest democratic vote in this country without a shot being fired in order to get their own way.
I won't be happy until Brexit is stopped totally. Not even this one foot in the door nonsense makes me happy.
We had a non-binding poll not held under normal democratic rules (ie no one can be held liable for any lies, false statements, fraud or vote manipulation) and a third of the voters voted to leave, which given polling in the week before and after polling day indicated a Remain win, is a statistical blip.
Polling today indicates Remain would win decisively if a vote was held tomorrow. And support for a hard Brexit hovers at 10%. I don't care what happened 18 months ago, I care about what voters want now. And voters want Brexit cancelled.
I'm on the side of democracy. Which is why I want Brexit cancelled.
George Orwell could not have bettered your last sentence.
I don't think you have ever read George Orwell or even understood what his views were otherwise you would not have written this post.
You're in the minority. Forcing your will on the rest of us is not democratic.
A competion
Which is Orwell and which is Fiish?
War is peace Ignorance is strength Overturning democracy is democratic Freedom is slavery
It doesn't matter how many times you repeat the mantra, there was nothing democratic about the referendum.
It doesn't matter how many times you repeat the mantra, there was nothing democratic about the referendum.
Oh yes there was. We had ballot boxes, millions of votes, hidden donations from overseas, intereference on social media, fake news and false promises about more money for the NHS. We should all accept the referendum result and move on.
In fact move on very quickly into reality for 2018 in the full knowledge that the referendum was A D V I S O R Y and therefore does not mandate Parliament nor the cabinet to jump the UK over the cliff edge.
Life is complicated and we can take this experience as a learning opportunity
If the electorate wish for the UK to leave the CU and SM in March 2019 in the same week that the EU: Japan FTA goes live then we can be sure that they will make their voices heard! Note that the EU/Japan FTA covers 600M people and 30% of global GDP.
I am reposting a post I made 2 months ago which might explain why me and other leavers are not on this thread. It has been obvious for a long time that the remainer led Tory Government would sell out the 17m Leave voters. Today's agreement capitulates on all the key things that leaving the EU would mean and confirms what I wrote below. They are selling out the 17m and the political consequences of this will happen down the line.
'The UK is being slowly suckered into a very bad deal with the EU. May has conceded publicly and privately that the UK will pay about 40b Euros for effectively a transition deal, ie a prolongation of UK membership of the EU until at least 2021. In exchange the UK has received precisely nothing except vague assurances that a trade deal will be discussed at some point, which we all knew would have to happen anyway.
In the meantime there is nobody in the EU or in the German government (the only one that really matters) who has said anything other than that the 4 freedoms are indivisible, ie that continued membership of or access to the single market will involve continued free movement of labour and jurusdiction by the ECJ.
So, we have committed to pay a large sum of money for what? In order to be told at some future point, when it suits the EU and after France and Germany have been able to lure businesses to their countries because of the indecision they themselves have prolonged, that access to the single market will mean effectively continued control by the EU under another name.
In the 4 years during which this charade is being played out, the Remainers who dominate political discourse in this country will continue to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt in order to demoralise those who supported Brexit. Look, they will say, we have lost money, we have a worse trade deal and no extra sovereignty, is it worth leaving the EU for this?
Those of us who want to see the referendum result carried out need to realise that the choice is not between a bad deal and no deal, but between Brexit and no Brexit.
So you left the thread because all the things that Remainers warned would happen...have happened?
Oh, and how have the Tories sold out the third of the voters who voted for Brexit? They are just following what the Leave campaign pledged in the first place.
Also, Remainers do not dominate the discourse at all. The government is controlled by the hard right Brexit wing of the Tory party, with Remainer Theresa a leader in name only. The media is controlled by right-wing Brexiteers. Politicians who support blocking Brexit face harrassment, abuse or worse. A Remain-supporting MP was murdered by a Brexiter.
If Leavers run everything-how come we are not leaving?
If by the end of 2019 the EU has removed the UK from its membership then we would have left.
In name only if we are still having to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court and accept rules and laws from the EU. The referendum quaetion was not-we would like to leave the EU but carry on as if we are still a member.
No it wasn't I agree - the question was should the UK remain a member of the EU or should the UK Leave the EU. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm nothing but persistent so I will ask you the same question for the umpteeth time (I promise not to ask it again) - what percentage of the 52% who voted to 'Leave the EU' do you believe share your version of Brexit?
What percentage thought that leaving the EU means remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court would be a better question-answer none.
Why wasn't the question "should the UK leave European Union and the jurisdiction of the European court?" then ? It's pretty important to be clear when constructing the question you will ask in a referendum.
You might have thought you were being asked something more than "should we stay in the EU" but, again, that's on you.
Remainers should be happy today. They have supported the overturning of the biggest democratic vote in this country without a shot being fired in order to get their own way.
I wasn't aware that the UK retreated from its expressed desire to leave the EU and, in fact, the agreed text is predicated upon the fact that the UK is leaving.
You are an intelligent man. I think you understand the implications of the capitulation that happened this week.
You are right. I am depressed that the half of the country that has no party leader on its side apart from the DUP and UKIP is being sold down the river. It is a very bad day for democracy.
I'm depressed that any part of the country would want to have both the DUP and UKIP on its side. But that's perspective for you...
But 52% of the electorate that bothered to vote in the June 2016 referendum is, no matter how you slice it, not half of the country (or even its population).
I lost the vote, I accept that the UK is leaving the EU, which, following the Article 50 process, is happening. Nothing contained in today's preliminary agreement stops the UK leaving the EU.
But, as the referendum did not stipulate how the UK would leave and as people, even politicians (for we must credit them with being people, just about), can change their minds (indeed, the ability to react to changing circumstances or on the basis of different information is a key characteristic of the workings of the human brain, and why we have evolved, maybe keep this part from Arlene & co., into what we are today), so the "how" the UK will honour the Brexit that its politicians have committed it to can be amended, without that overturning the commitment.
While I would like there to be no Brexit, if there has to be one (and, in the absence of a fresh General Election and new manifesto commitments, I cannot see how there will not be), I really would like it to be a thinking Brexit, one that manages not to cut off its nose to spite its face and, most importantly, one that is grounded, as much as any political decision can be, upon an empirical and rational basis - led by people with clear understanding of the pros and cons facing them and willing to make the right decisions - those that make decisions about Brexit to benefit the country rather than solely their narrow power base.
However, @Southbank, you should be reassured that there is little evidence that the UK Government is led on the lines that I would prefer. Today's announcement is something which could and should have been committed to within no more than a month of talks beginning. Phase 2 will be infinitely more complex and time consuming (okay, I know it has to be finite, but you know what I mean), while full trade negotiations will magnify the challenges dramatically again.
There is every chance that talks will break down without the kind of agreement that I, or any remainer, would like - in fact (as I am a glass smashed on the floor and the last drink I can afford pooling around my feet kind of guy) I have little faith in a mutually acceptable solution being agreed for the Brexit or trade negotiations. With the best will in the World, no-one could claim that the current UK Government is immune to political pressure from both within and without the Conservative Party, and dissidents are not afraid to speak their mind (possibly in unattributed briefings) to a media whose foundations are almost entirely based on raging anti-EU sentiment.
One of the great triumphs of British culture is that English has become the international language, one of the great weaknesses for the current Government is that English has become the international language - there will be plentiful opportunities for "patriotic" individuals to poison the well of goodwill that remains towards the UK within the EU, knowing full well that their words will be understood without difficulty. They've certainly been keen to do this up to now, and I cannot imagine they will see a reason to change.
Even agreeing the best Free Trade Agreement imaginable, assuming that there is no u-turn on membership of the Single Market and the Customs Union will leave the UK in a worse position, IMHO again.
Perhaps I am reading John Crace in the Guardian too literally, it's just that his sketches seem to be almost word for word these days.
I am reposting a post I made 2 months ago which might explain why me and other leavers are not on this thread. It has been obvious for a long time that the remainer led Tory Government would sell out the 17m Leave voters. Today's agreement capitulates on all the key things that leaving the EU would mean and confirms what I wrote below. They are selling out the 17m and the political consequences of this will happen down the line.
'The UK is being slowly suckered into a very bad deal with the EU. May has conceded publicly and privately that the UK will pay about 40b Euros for effectively a transition deal, ie a prolongation of UK membership of the EU until at least 2021. In exchange the UK has received precisely nothing except vague assurances that a trade deal will be discussed at some point, which we all knew would have to happen anyway.
In the meantime there is nobody in the EU or in the German government (the only one that really matters) who has said anything other than that the 4 freedoms are indivisible, ie that continued membership of or access to the single market will involve continued free movement of labour and jurusdiction by the ECJ.
So, we have committed to pay a large sum of money for what? In order to be told at some future point, when it suits the EU and after France and Germany have been able to lure businesses to their countries because of the indecision they themselves have prolonged, that access to the single market will mean effectively continued control by the EU under another name.
In the 4 years during which this charade is being played out, the Remainers who dominate political discourse in this country will continue to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt in order to demoralise those who supported Brexit. Look, they will say, we have lost money, we have a worse trade deal and no extra sovereignty, is it worth leaving the EU for this?
Those of us who want to see the referendum result carried out need to realise that the choice is not between a bad deal and no deal, but between Brexit and no Brexit.
So you left the thread because all the things that Remainers warned would happen...have happened?
Oh, and how have the Tories sold out the third of the voters who voted for Brexit? They are just following what the Leave campaign pledged in the first place.
Also, Remainers do not dominate the discourse at all. The government is controlled by the hard right Brexit wing of the Tory party, with Remainer Theresa a leader in name only. The media is controlled by right-wing Brexiteers. Politicians who support blocking Brexit face harrassment, abuse or worse. A Remain-supporting MP was murdered by a Brexiter.
If Leavers run everything-how come we are not leaving?
If by the end of 2019 the EU has removed the UK from its membership then we would have left.
In name only if we are still having to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court and accept rules and laws from the EU. The referendum quaetion was not-we would like to leave the EU but carry on as if we are still a member.
No it wasn't I agree - the question was should the UK remain a member of the EU or should the UK Leave the EU. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm nothing but persistent so I will ask you the same question for the umpteeth time (I promise not to ask it again) - what percentage of the 52% who voted to 'Leave the EU' do you believe share your version of Brexit?
What percentage thought that leaving the EU means remaining under the jurisdiction of the European Court would be a better question-answer none.
Why wasn't the question "should the UK leave European Union and the jurisdiction of the European court?" then ? It's pretty important to be clear when constructing the question you will ask in a referendum.
You might have thought you were being asked something more than "should we stay in the EU" but, again, that's on you.
Remainers should be happy today. They have supported the overturning of the biggest democratic vote in this country without a shot being fired in order to get their own way.
I wasn't aware that the UK retreated from its expressed desire to leave the EU and, in fact, the agreed text is predicated upon the fact that the UK is leaving.
You are an intelligent man. I think you understand the implications of the capitulation that happened this week.
Thank you for the compliment.
However, as @stonemuse has pointed out, nothing that is contained in today's document means anything unless and until an exit agreement can be negotiated (an agreement that will outline what sort of trading relationship both the UK and EU will seek to negotiate). The only implication, in reality, of the compromises (admittedly, because the UK's position at this stage is less strong than the EU's, more on the UK side), not capitulations, agreed two by both sides is that the UK will be able to begin the negotiations that the Government says it wants.
If you are actually talking about a capitulation this week, consider, if you will, Arlene Foster (representing a political party with 10 MPs) telling the UK Prime Minister what she could or could not do.
Comments
Page 1 of the report:
Remarks: This report is put forward with a view to the meeting of the European Council (Article 50) of 14-15 December 2017. Under the caveat that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, the joint commitments set out in this joint report shall be reflected in the Withdrawal Agreement in full detail. This does not prejudge any adaptations that might be appropriate in case transitional arrangements were to be agreed in the second phase of the negotiations, and is without prejudice to discussions on the framework of the future relationship.
We had a non-binding poll not held under normal democratic rules (ie no one can be held liable for any lies, false statements, fraud or vote manipulation) and a third of the voters voted to leave, which given polling in the week before and after polling day indicated a Remain win, is a statistical blip.
Polling today indicates Remain would win decisively if a vote was held tomorrow. And support for a hard Brexit hovers at 10%. I don't care what happened 18 months ago, I care about what voters want now. And voters want Brexit cancelled.
I'm on the side of democracy. Which is why I want Brexit cancelled.
So unless we decide to either cancel Brexit or go for the Swiss or Norway option (again, both countries Vote Leave and every prominent Brexiter said we should be emulating in terms of a Brexit deal), this is the best we are going to get.
Southbank, when you were listening to all the prominent Brexiters such as Farage, Hannan, Davis, Johnson etc. prattling on about how we could get a Norway or Swiss deal and stay in the SM/CU, why did you hear 'definitely out of the SM/CU, hard Brexit'?
https://prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/mps-did-not-properly-approve-brexit-so-the-triggering-of-article-50-was-invalid
At last we have some positive news on Brexit happening.
The other important thing to note, however, is that it intended that, with the approval of the EU27 member states, it will form part of the Withdrawal Agreement. The trading relationship will not be fully determined until later, for the very simple reason that no trade agreement of the kind of complexity that will be involved could be negotiated in the available time.
Listening to Dominic Raab on the radio this evening, I fear that this particular member of the Leading Brexiter Brain's Trust (I have my doubts that there is more than one brain between them), does not seem to understand what Phase 2 of the current negotiations is about.
I accepted some time back that my vision of how we can work together with the EU will not be achieved at this stage because of the ineptitude on our side and the inflexibility on the other.
However, I am convinced that over the next few years, the concept of a multi-speed Europe will come to prominence. If handled in the right way as I have discussed previously, we can all still get to a good place.
As you know i value your input from the leave side, just keen to read what you think personally
You're in the minority. Forcing your will on the rest of us is not democratic.
Brexit will be watered down which is no good to anyone on either side. .
I accepted some time back that my vision of how we can work together with the EU will not be achieved at this stage because of the ineptitude on our side and the inflexibility on the other.
However, I am convinced that over the next few years, the concept of a multi-speed Europe will come to prominence. If handled in the right way as I have discussed previously, we can all still get to a good place.
You're having a pop at a well respected presenter and not the racist moron who called his show?
By the way has JOB ever called someone who has called his show scum?
A "watered down" Brexit might well be the best way for everybody to learn about what can and can't be done without crashing the economy / pissing off our trade partners. If by "watered down" you mean regulatory alignment to ensure that business and financial services continue uninterupted then that works for me.
We've had a load of ex-journalists promising all sorts to the electorate and this week we've found out that they will compromise on anything just to keep the show rolling on. Gove and Johnson are simply media players with no substance and no real understanding of the petrol and matches with which they have been playing.
They were devastated when Leave won and are somewhat relieved that the adults in London, Dublin and Brussels are able to keep the wheels on.
However this is not to say that we should (or can) put everything back in the box and pretend nothing happened. The UK has arrived through the first gate and we have another 12 months of this to go. The next phase appears to be far more complex and many might find it harder to swallow what is really on offer from the EU.
The UK will always retain the choice: deal or no deal!
Which is Orwell and which is Fiish?
War is peace
Ignorance is strength
Overturning democracy is democratic
Freedom is slavery
In fact move on very quickly into reality for 2018 in the full knowledge that the referendum was A D V I S O R Y and therefore does not mandate Parliament nor the cabinet to jump the UK over the cliff edge.
Life is complicated and we can take this experience as a learning opportunity
If the electorate wish for the UK to leave the CU and SM in March 2019 in the same week that the EU: Japan FTA goes live then we can be sure that they will make their voices heard! Note that the EU/Japan FTA covers 600M people and 30% of global GDP.
But 52% of the electorate that bothered to vote in the June 2016 referendum is, no matter how you slice it, not half of the country (or even its population).
I lost the vote, I accept that the UK is leaving the EU, which, following the Article 50 process, is happening. Nothing contained in today's preliminary agreement stops the UK leaving the EU.
But, as the referendum did not stipulate how the UK would leave and as people, even politicians (for we must credit them with being people, just about), can change their minds (indeed, the ability to react to changing circumstances or on the basis of different information is a key characteristic of the workings of the human brain, and why we have evolved, maybe keep this part from Arlene & co., into what we are today), so the "how" the UK will honour the Brexit that its politicians have committed it to can be amended, without that overturning the commitment.
While I would like there to be no Brexit, if there has to be one (and, in the absence of a fresh General Election and new manifesto commitments, I cannot see how there will not be), I really would like it to be a thinking Brexit, one that manages not to cut off its nose to spite its face and, most importantly, one that is grounded, as much as any political decision can be, upon an empirical and rational basis - led by people with clear understanding of the pros and cons facing them and willing to make the right decisions - those that make decisions about Brexit to benefit the country rather than solely their narrow power base.
However, @Southbank, you should be reassured that there is little evidence that the UK Government is led on the lines that I would prefer. Today's announcement is something which could and should have been committed to within no more than a month of talks beginning. Phase 2 will be infinitely more complex and time consuming (okay, I know it has to be finite, but you know what I mean), while full trade negotiations will magnify the challenges dramatically again.
There is every chance that talks will break down without the kind of agreement that I, or any remainer, would like - in fact (as I am a glass smashed on the floor and the last drink I can afford pooling around my feet kind of guy) I have little faith in a mutually acceptable solution being agreed for the Brexit or trade negotiations. With the best will in the World, no-one could claim that the current UK Government is immune to political pressure from both within and without the Conservative Party, and dissidents are not afraid to speak their mind (possibly in unattributed briefings) to a media whose foundations are almost entirely based on raging anti-EU sentiment.
One of the great triumphs of British culture is that English has become the international language, one of the great weaknesses for the current Government is that English has become the international language - there will be plentiful opportunities for "patriotic" individuals to poison the well of goodwill that remains towards the UK within the EU, knowing full well that their words will be understood without difficulty. They've certainly been keen to do this up to now, and I cannot imagine they will see a reason to change.
Even agreeing the best Free Trade Agreement imaginable, assuming that there is no u-turn on membership of the Single Market and the Customs Union will leave the UK in a worse position, IMHO again.
Perhaps I am reading John Crace in the Guardian too literally, it's just that his sketches seem to be almost word for word these days.
However, as @stonemuse has pointed out, nothing that is contained in today's document means anything unless and until an exit agreement can be negotiated (an agreement that will outline what sort of trading relationship both the UK and EU will seek to negotiate). The only implication, in reality, of the compromises (admittedly, because the UK's position at this stage is less strong than the EU's, more on the UK side), not capitulations, agreed two by both sides is that the UK will be able to begin the negotiations that the Government says it wants.
If you are actually talking about a capitulation this week, consider, if you will, Arlene Foster (representing a political party with 10 MPs) telling the UK Prime Minister what she could or could not do.