Yeah. Years more of this. I foresee a long period of some kind of action by brexiters and reaction by remainers. I also believe the onus is 100% on the brexit voters in the UK to sort it out, not the Irish, not the EU, not the remainers. Clearly a person like me will have to suffer the consequences of brexit, but I am one of the lucky ones with dual nationality
Incidentally, why are you lucky because of dual nationality? Intending to move to Ireland any time soon?
Not sure you will find the ‘grass is greener’.
There has to be some upside to all the rain we get...
Yeah. Years more of this. I foresee a long period of some kind of action by brexiters and reaction by remainers. I also believe the onus is 100% on the brexit voters in the UK to sort it out, not the Irish, not the EU, not the remainers. Clearly a person like me will have to suffer the consequences of brexit, but I am one of the lucky ones with dual nationality
Incidentally, why are you lucky because of dual nationality? Intending to move to Ireland any time soon?
Not sure you will find the ‘grass is greener’.
There has to be some upside to all the rain we get...
The ‘Norway’ approach is pointless and, if that is the answer to this process, there is no point leaving.
That's what Fintan O'Toole spelt out last week. I wish people wouldn't shout out the answers and give the rest of the class a chance to think this through! The reason that Farage and IDS are so upset is because we are now on course as a nation to make that comparison in late 2018.
Barnier, May, Davis and Varadkar need to play out the next round first to its conclusion and then the nation can see the three options with perfect clarity: Norway + CU, a suboptimal FTA or abort the whole process.
The ‘Norway’ approach is pointless and, if that is the answer to this process, there is no point leaving.
That's what Fintan O'Toole spelt out last week. I wish the brighter ones wouldn't shout out the answers and give the rest of the class a chance to catch up! The reason that Farage and IDS are so upset is because we are now on course as a nation to make that comparison in late 2018.
Barnier, May, Davis and Varadkar need to play out the next round first to its conclusion and then the nation can see the three options with perfect clarity: Norway + CU, a suboptimal FTA or abort the whole process.
Some say that we won't stay in the EU since there are European elections in May 2019 and they will be explosive if we take part. However it's impossible to predict the political landscape in three months let alone 18.
A ‘Canada-type’ solution need not be sub-optimal ... unless Merkel decides to play her ‘coalition’ game again and renege on such FTA’s.
For what it's worth, I think it's really important that people remember that Phase 2 does not refer to trade talks, other than in the broadest scoping and indications of intent. Article 50 negotiations are only about leaving the EU.
The EU's rules make this clear, and all official statements to date agree with the intent of the rules.
Trade negotiations can only be entered into by the EU with third party countries. Entering into a transition period could easily be as much of a leap in the dark as beginning Article 50 talks.
While "sufficient progress" has, belatedly, been made (a journalist on the BBC's Dateline London echoed my belief that what has been agreed on Friday could easily have been agreed almost immediately on beginning negotiations - provided both sides were prepared), none of what has been signed off is carved in stone - though I worry about the impact of David Davis' comments today, particularly with reference to the Irish border, where, if he is to be believed and is representing the UK's official view, it would appear that the UK may not have been negotiating in good faith. I would expect that Theresa May will be required to tell the EU 27 whether David Davis was correct, which, in the worst case scenario, could put everything on hold.
In any event, I am sure that the mass media statements will be being digested across the EU, and will have an impact on forthcoming negotiations - which will be more more difficult anyway, and, for Article 50, need to be concluded in about 9-10 months.
The collapse of trust in our politicians, our politics, our institutions and our post-war settlement is real and it is profound. It pervades every layer of British society: every class, every income level, every age group and every ideological leaning. The titled, the humble and the dogs in the street alike know that our democracy has gone wonky. The country is poorly run, by people who give the impression they are largely motivated by the prospect of personal advancement and the next opportunity to slip the dagger between one another’s ribs, by careerists who take a short-term view of big issues that properly require long-term responses, by parties that in the 21st century are outdated, unworkable coalitions of people who often have more in common with those who are nominally their opponents.
Very hard to disagree with any of that. I do genuinely feel that politicians have it harder now than their predecessors did. Two things stand out to me in this: 1. For most of the post war era the British economy has been in a state of growth. Sure there were periods of stagnation (most notably in the early 70s), there were also periods of Schumpeterian destruction which were both painful and divisive (most notably in the Thatcher years) but the general trend has been upwards. Environmental factors, diminishing resources and the growth of eastern economies has put quite a squeeze on expansion opportunities for UK businesses. Times are tough, and with my pessimist hat on, I can only see them getting worse. Politicians of the past could afford to bumble along and the advantage the UK had would be enough for the economy to grow. That is no longer the case. 2. Every act they take and every word they utter is out there in public in seconds. In the past politicians had the opportunity to carefully control their their public image. Nowadays, one slip of the tongue and people are tweeting away immediately. That's not to defend them though. I still think they are a shower of shite. It's just that I'm not convinced that there was ever a golden age of politicians.
Either way we are effectively breaking away from what is a very good deal (ie frictionless ties with 27 of our largest trading partners) as well as all the benefits and influence that comes with it...for a very very poor imitation of that deal.
Maybe the Brexiters should face reality and realise the world has moved on from colonial era Britain ruling the waves. We are now living in an open and global society and the days of hard borders, capital controls, nationalism and nativism are over. The rest of the world seems to embracing this; Brexiters are unique in wanting to regress to darker times.
If both sides are going to lose in this deal, it is because Remainers are going to be worse off than before in a worse off, poor Britain, whereas Brexiters hark for a world that ceased to exist a hundred years ago.
If Southbank is still upset that he has been betrayed, it is because time travel is technically impossible.
Maybe we could start a another war with the argies, and our wonderful friends and allies 'the french' could supply them with some more missiles.
Yeah, or the USA with a replacement for the General Belgrano....
You obviously think that the weopans supplied by them killed 32 of our armed forces means nothing, wonderr if that was your son, brother, relative or friend that was killed you would still think the same. Nothing like a good partriot.
The collapse of trust in our politicians, our politics, our institutions and our post-war settlement is real and it is profound. It pervades every layer of British society: every class, every income level, every age group and every ideological leaning. The titled, the humble and the dogs in the street alike know that our democracy has gone wonky. The country is poorly run, by people who give the impression they are largely motivated by the prospect of personal advancement and the next opportunity to slip the dagger between one another’s ribs, by careerists who take a short-term view of big issues that properly require long-term responses, by parties that in the 21st century are outdated, unworkable coalitions of people who often have more in common with those who are nominally their opponents.
Well quite. However this is the democracy and sovereignty brexiters apparently yearned and voted for, whilst viewing the perfectly decent EU democracy as the big bad wolf.
Either way we are effectively breaking away from what is a very good deal (ie frictionless ties with 27 of our largest trading partners) as well as all the benefits and influence that comes with it...for a very very poor imitation of that deal.
Maybe the Brexiters should face reality and realise the world has moved on from colonial era Britain ruling the waves. We are now living in an open and global society and the days of hard borders, capital controls, nationalism and nativism are over. The rest of the world seems to embracing this; Brexiters are unique in wanting to regress to darker times.
If both sides are going to lose in this deal, it is because Remainers are going to be worse off than before in a worse off, poor Britain, whereas Brexiters hark for a world that ceased to exist a hundred years ago.
If Southbank is still upset that he has been betrayed, it is because time travel is technically impossible.
Maybe we could start a another war with the argies, and our wonderful friends and allies 'the french' could supply them with some more missiles.
Yeah, or the USA with a replacement for the General Belgrano....
You obviously think that the weopans supplied by them killed 32 of our armed forces means nothing, wonderr if that was your son, brother, relative or friend that was killed you would still think the same. Nothing like a good partriot.
I have no doubt that weapons produced in this country have resulted in the deaths of our servicemen.
If you make weapons and sell them to people that you know sell them on to some very suspect individuals or regimes I don’t think you have much right to attempt the moral high ground.
Either way we are effectively breaking away from what is a very good deal (ie frictionless ties with 27 of our largest trading partners) as well as all the benefits and influence that comes with it...for a very very poor imitation of that deal.
Maybe the Brexiters should face reality and realise the world has moved on from colonial era Britain ruling the waves. We are now living in an open and global society and the days of hard borders, capital controls, nationalism and nativism are over. The rest of the world seems to embracing this; Brexiters are unique in wanting to regress to darker times.
If both sides are going to lose in this deal, it is because Remainers are going to be worse off than before in a worse off, poor Britain, whereas Brexiters hark for a world that ceased to exist a hundred years ago.
If Southbank is still upset that he has been betrayed, it is because time travel is technically impossible.
Maybe we could start a another war with the argies, and our wonderful friends and allies 'the french' could supply them with some more missiles.
The French are arms manufacturers and so is the United Kingdom. It happens that the Argentinians bought some of those French weapons. They could have just as easily bought some of ours. The United Kingdom sells weapons to pretty much anyone. UK made arms are in the hands of some of the most wicked people on earth. Scruples in international arms manufacturing are in very short supply regardless of the hand wringing of the governments.
I’m sure you are aware that our allies the French gave our military every assistance and codes available to try to minimise the effects of the Exocet missiles. I’m sure it helped but sadly not always enough.
It’s worth remembering the adage “live by the sword. Die by the sword”
You are aware french technicians stayed on in Argentina whilst the Falklands war was in progress to support them, particularly as some failed to fire. The french refuted it at the time but later had to apologise for admitting it happened. Nothing like a good local neighbour.
Worth reading ‘Brexit and British Politics’ by Evans & Menon to get an insight to what really led to Brexit and how it is changing our political arena.
I found it interesting to read that, apparently, ‘Project Fear’ from both sides made virtually no difference to how people actually voted in the end.
Yeah. Years more of this. I foresee a long period of some kind of action by brexiters and reaction by remainers. I also believe the onus is 100% on the brexit voters in the UK to sort it out, not the Irish, not the EU, not the remainers. Clearly a person like me will have to suffer the consequences of brexit, but I am one of the lucky ones with dual nationality
Incidentally, why are you lucky because of dual nationality? Intending to move to Ireland any time soon?
Not sure you will find the ‘grass is greener’.
I won't need to move to Ireland after the manoeuvering of this past week. The UK is to remain in the EU anyway via the Republic of Ireland. The passport is a good safety net, I don't have need or want a British passport any more and the country will have to put up with me because I was born in Erith.
The collapse of trust in our politicians, our politics, our institutions and our post-war settlement is real and it is profound. It pervades every layer of British society: every class, every income level, every age group and every ideological leaning. The titled, the humble and the dogs in the street alike know that our democracy has gone wonky. The country is poorly run, by people who give the impression they are largely motivated by the prospect of personal advancement and the next opportunity to slip the dagger between one another’s ribs, by careerists who take a short-term view of big issues that properly require long-term responses, by parties that in the 21st century are outdated, unworkable coalitions of people who often have more in common with those who are nominally their opponents.
Well quite. However this is the democracy and sovereignty brexiters apparently yearned and voted for, whilst viewing the perfectly decent EU democracy as the big bad wolf.
Obviously everyone demands that our political class improve, as they should do, but to state that the EU is ‘perfectly decent’ when it is accepted by citizens of all EU countries that much improvement and change is required, is, in my opinion, ludicrous.
Worth reading ‘Brexit and British Politics’ by Evans & Menon to get an insight to what really led to Brexit and how it is changing our political arena.
I found it interesting to read that, apparently, ‘Project Fear’ from both sides made virtually no difference to how people actually voted in the end.
So none of us knew what we were voting for.
Not the point they made ... surveys showed that very few voters changed their opinion from the view they held pre-referendum to the opinions they subsequently held during the referendum process despite the scare-mongering on both sides.
Yeah. Years more of this. I foresee a long period of some kind of action by brexiters and reaction by remainers. I also believe the onus is 100% on the brexit voters in the UK to sort it out, not the Irish, not the EU, not the remainers. Clearly a person like me will have to suffer the consequences of brexit, but I am one of the lucky ones with dual nationality
Incidentally, why are you lucky because of dual nationality? Intending to move to Ireland any time soon?
Not sure you will find the ‘grass is greener’.
I won't need to move to Ireland after the manoeuvering of this past week. The UK is to remain in the EU anyway via the Republic of Ireland. The passport is a good safety net, I don't have need or want a British passport any more and the country will have to put up with me because I was born in Erith.
Either way we are effectively breaking away from what is a very good deal (ie frictionless ties with 27 of our largest trading partners) as well as all the benefits and influence that comes with it...for a very very poor imitation of that deal.
Maybe the Brexiters should face reality and realise the world has moved on from colonial era Britain ruling the waves. We are now living in an open and global society and the days of hard borders, capital controls, nationalism and nativism are over. The rest of the world seems to embracing this; Brexiters are unique in wanting to regress to darker times.
If both sides are going to lose in this deal, it is because Remainers are going to be worse off than before in a worse off, poor Britain, whereas Brexiters hark for a world that ceased to exist a hundred years ago.
If Southbank is still upset that he has been betrayed, it is because time travel is technically impossible.
Maybe we could start a another war with the argies, and our wonderful friends and allies 'the french' could supply them with some more missiles.
The French are arms manufacturers and so is the United Kingdom. It happens that the Argentinians bought some of those French weapons. They could have just as easily bought some of ours. The United Kingdom sells weapons to pretty much anyone. UK made arms are in the hands of some of the most wicked people on earth. Scruples in international arms manufacturing are in very short supply regardless of the hand wringing of the governments.
I’m sure you are aware that our allies the French gave our military every assistance and codes available to try to minimise the effects of the Exocet missiles. I’m sure it helped but sadly not always enough.
It’s worth remembering the adage “live by the sword. Die by the sword”
You are aware french technicians stayed on in Argentina whilst the Falklands war was in progress to support them, particularly as some failed to fire. The french refuted it at the time but later had to apologise for admitting it happened. Nothing like a good local neighbour.
My understanding is that’s completely true and the technicians were employees of the French arms manufacturer and without the knowledge of the French authorities who you are correct were forced to apologise. It’s a tragic consequence and symptom of the system where such vast sums of money are made there is little control over who ends up with what and no genuine attempts to stop repressive regimes buying what they want.
The collapse of trust in our politicians, our politics, our institutions and our post-war settlement is real and it is profound. It pervades every layer of British society: every class, every income level, every age group and every ideological leaning. The titled, the humble and the dogs in the street alike know that our democracy has gone wonky. The country is poorly run, by people who give the impression they are largely motivated by the prospect of personal advancement and the next opportunity to slip the dagger between one another’s ribs, by careerists who take a short-term view of big issues that properly require long-term responses, by parties that in the 21st century are outdated, unworkable coalitions of people who often have more in common with those who are nominally their opponents.
Well quite. However this is the democracy and sovereignty brexiters apparently yearned and voted for, whilst viewing the perfectly decent EU democracy as the big bad wolf.
Obviously everyone demands that our political class improve, as they should do, but to state that the EU is ‘perfectly decent’ when it is accepted by citizens of all EU countries that much improvement and change is required, is, in my opinion, ludicrous.
Just because you declare quite broadly that it is accepted by EU citizens everywhere (hard to back that assertion up with evidence I would imagine) it is possible to accept what you say and still hold the EU to be a perfectly decent democracy. One feature of any decent democracy is that people are free to criticise, and personally at the moment I believe the EU version of democracy to be superior to the UK one, and your post above regarding politics in the UK somewhat backs that up.
Yeah. Years more of this. I foresee a long period of some kind of action by brexiters and reaction by remainers. I also believe the onus is 100% on the brexit voters in the UK to sort it out, not the Irish, not the EU, not the remainers. Clearly a person like me will have to suffer the consequences of brexit, but I am one of the lucky ones with dual nationality
Incidentally, why are you lucky because of dual nationality? Intending to move to Ireland any time soon?
Not sure you will find the ‘grass is greener’.
I won't need to move to Ireland after the manoeuvering of this past week. The UK is to remain in the EU anyway via the Republic of Ireland. The passport is a good safety net, I don't have need or want a British passport any more and the country will have to put up with me because I was born in Erith.
But why is it ‘a good safety net’?
One reason is a visa to China on a British passport used to be ten times more expensive than on an Irish passport.
Yeah. Years more of this. I foresee a long period of some kind of action by brexiters and reaction by remainers. I also believe the onus is 100% on the brexit voters in the UK to sort it out, not the Irish, not the EU, not the remainers. Clearly a person like me will have to suffer the consequences of brexit, but I am one of the lucky ones with dual nationality
Incidentally, why are you lucky because of dual nationality? Intending to move to Ireland any time soon?
Not sure you will find the ‘grass is greener’.
I won't need to move to Ireland after the manoeuvering of this past week. The UK is to remain in the EU anyway via the Republic of Ireland. The passport is a good safety net, I don't have need or want a British passport any more and the country will have to put up with me because I was born in Erith.
But why is it ‘a good safety net’?
One reason is a visa to China on a British passport used to be ten times more expensive than on an Irish passport.
Either way we are effectively breaking away from what is a very good deal (ie frictionless ties with 27 of our largest trading partners) as well as all the benefits and influence that comes with it...for a very very poor imitation of that deal.
Maybe the Brexiters should face reality and realise the world has moved on from colonial era Britain ruling the waves. We are now living in an open and global society and the days of hard borders, capital controls, nationalism and nativism are over. The rest of the world seems to embracing this; Brexiters are unique in wanting to regress to darker times.
If both sides are going to lose in this deal, it is because Remainers are going to be worse off than before in a worse off, poor Britain, whereas Brexiters hark for a world that ceased to exist a hundred years ago.
If Southbank is still upset that he has been betrayed, it is because time travel is technically impossible.
Maybe we could start a another war with the argies, and our wonderful friends and allies 'the french' could supply them with some more missiles.
Yeah, or the USA with a replacement for the General Belgrano....
You obviously think that the weopans supplied by them killed 32 of our armed forces means nothing, wonderr if that was your son, brother, relative or friend that was killed you would still think the same. Nothing like a good partriot.
I think what he is saying is that the Argentinian military was supplied with weapons, ammunition ad other military materiel by a number of countries - the idea that the French were any worse than any of the other suppliers, when there is clear evidence that once the Falklands were invaded the French Government sought to ensure that an embargo was established to prevent Argentina acquiring any more, particularly Exocets (the actions of the technicians in Argentina were not approved by the Government), is just mad. Along with the rest of the European Community, they immediately supported the UK, unlike the USA (which also did not freeze military connections immediately) or, allegedly, Israel, who are said to have supplied Argentina during the conflict.
Absolutely. Today the UK passport visa to China is £151 but an Irish one is £35. Not ten times any more admittedly but about five times more expensive.
The collapse of trust in our politicians, our politics, our institutions and our post-war settlement is real and it is profound. It pervades every layer of British society: every class, every income level, every age group and every ideological leaning. The titled, the humble and the dogs in the street alike know that our democracy has gone wonky. The country is poorly run, by people who give the impression they are largely motivated by the prospect of personal advancement and the next opportunity to slip the dagger between one another’s ribs, by careerists who take a short-term view of big issues that properly require long-term responses, by parties that in the 21st century are outdated, unworkable coalitions of people who often have more in common with those who are nominally their opponents.
Well quite. However this is the democracy and sovereignty brexiters apparently yearned and voted for, whilst viewing the perfectly decent EU democracy as the big bad wolf.
Obviously everyone demands that our political class improve, as they should do, but to state that the EU is ‘perfectly decent’ when it is accepted by citizens of all EU countries that much improvement and change is required, is, in my opinion, ludicrous.
Just because you declare quite broadly that it is accepted by EU citizens everywhere (hard to back that assertion up with evidence I would imagine) it is possible to accept what you say and still hold the EU to be a perfectly decent democracy. One feature of any decent democracy is that people are free to criticise, and personally at the moment I believe the EU version of democracy to be superior to the UK one, and your post above regarding politics in the UK somewhat backs that up.
How is the EU a more decent democracy than the UK? We are also free to criticise our government. When did that change according to you?
The political class in many EU countries is no better than in the UK. Just read the media in Europe on a regular basis and you will see that. Disillusionment is all over, hence the rise of populist and far right organisations.
Are you really saying that all countries are not seeking improvement from the EU? Even the likes of Merkel and Macron are saying it, not only the UK.
We are far from perfect, but neither is the EU and its component countries.
Absolutely. Today the UK passport visa to China is £151 but an Irish one is £35. Not ten times any more admittedly but about five times more expensive.
You forgot to mention the cost of the passport in the first place.
Absolutely. Today the UK passport visa to China is £151 but an Irish one is £35. Not ten times any more admittedly but about five times more expensive.
So having dual nationality has nothing to do with Brexit, it just means cheaper visas?
Either way we are effectively breaking away from what is a very good deal (ie frictionless ties with 27 of our largest trading partners) as well as all the benefits and influence that comes with it...for a very very poor imitation of that deal.
Maybe the Brexiters should face reality and realise the world has moved on from colonial era Britain ruling the waves. We are now living in an open and global society and the days of hard borders, capital controls, nationalism and nativism are over. The rest of the world seems to embracing this; Brexiters are unique in wanting to regress to darker times.
If both sides are going to lose in this deal, it is because Remainers are going to be worse off than before in a worse off, poor Britain, whereas Brexiters hark for a world that ceased to exist a hundred years ago.
If Southbank is still upset that he has been betrayed, it is because time travel is technically impossible.
Maybe we could start a another war with the argies, and our wonderful friends and allies 'the french' could supply them with some more missiles.
Yeah, or the USA with a replacement for the General Belgrano....
You obviously think that the weopans supplied by them killed 32 of our armed forces means nothing, wonderr if that was your son, brother, relative or friend that was killed you would still think the same. Nothing like a good partriot.
I think what he is saying is that the Argentinian military was supplied with weapons, ammunition ad other military materiel by a number of countries - the idea that the French were any worse than any of the other suppliers, when there is clear evidence that once the Falklands were invaded the French Government sought to ensure that an embargo was established to prevent Argentina acquiring any more, particularly Exocets (the actions of the technicians in Argentina were not approved by the Government), is just mad. Along with the rest of the European Community, they immediately supported the UK, unlike the USA (which also did not freeze military connections immediately) or, allegedly, Israel, who are said to have supplied Argentina during the conflict.
The ameticans supported us with intelligence both before during and after. It was pure fluke that we won that war as even 6 months later we would not have had a navy to do so.
I cant speak for what anyone else is thinking but to state here from someone who called member countries of the EU as our friends when as i have known for years they are not, to supply our enemy with military support when they say they are not isn't a friend to me. If the same thing happened tomorrow they would act exactly the same.
Absolutely. Today the UK passport visa to China is £151 but an Irish one is £35. Not ten times any more admittedly but about five times more expensive.
So having dual nationality has nothing to do with Brexit, it just means cheaper visas?
It is one advantage. And for a while (it may still come to pass) one didn't need a visa to go to the EU. So as a fall back position if there is a no deal outcome I will be able to travel visa free to the EU but British passport holders maybe would not.
Either way we are effectively breaking away from what is a very good deal (ie frictionless ties with 27 of our largest trading partners) as well as all the benefits and influence that comes with it...for a very very poor imitation of that deal.
Maybe the Brexiters should face reality and realise the world has moved on from colonial era Britain ruling the waves. We are now living in an open and global society and the days of hard borders, capital controls, nationalism and nativism are over. The rest of the world seems to embracing this; Brexiters are unique in wanting to regress to darker times.
If both sides are going to lose in this deal, it is because Remainers are going to be worse off than before in a worse off, poor Britain, whereas Brexiters hark for a world that ceased to exist a hundred years ago.
If Southbank is still upset that he has been betrayed, it is because time travel is technically impossible.
Maybe we could start a another war with the argies, and our wonderful friends and allies 'the french' could supply them with some more missiles.
Yeah, or the USA with a replacement for the General Belgrano....
You obviously think that the weopans supplied by them killed 32 of our armed forces means nothing, wonderr if that was your son, brother, relative or friend that was killed you would still think the same. Nothing like a good partriot.
I think what he is saying is that the Argentinian military was supplied with weapons, ammunition ad other military materiel by a number of countries - the idea that the French were any worse than any of the other suppliers, when there is clear evidence that once the Falklands were invaded the French Government sought to ensure that an embargo was established to prevent Argentina acquiring any more, particularly Exocets (the actions of the technicians in Argentina were not approved by the Government), is just mad. Along with the rest of the European Community, they immediately supported the UK, unlike the USA (which also did not freeze military connections immediately) or, allegedly, Israel, who are said to have supplied Argentina during the conflict.
The ameticans supported us with intelligence both before during and after. It was pure fluke that we won that war as even 6 months later we would not have had a navy to do so.
I cant speak for what anyone else is thinking but to state here from someone who called member countries of the EU as our friends when as i have known for years they are not, to supply our enemy with military support when they say they are not isn't a friend to me. If the same thing happened tomorrow they would act exactly the same.
It was "pure fluke" that we won the Falklands War ? I'm sure it was more down the the tenacity and bravery of our armed forces.
The collapse of trust in our politicians, our politics, our institutions and our post-war settlement is real and it is profound. It pervades every layer of British society: every class, every income level, every age group and every ideological leaning. The titled, the humble and the dogs in the street alike know that our democracy has gone wonky. The country is poorly run, by people who give the impression they are largely motivated by the prospect of personal advancement and the next opportunity to slip the dagger between one another’s ribs, by careerists who take a short-term view of big issues that properly require long-term responses, by parties that in the 21st century are outdated, unworkable coalitions of people who often have more in common with those who are nominally their opponents.
Well quite. However this is the democracy and sovereignty brexiters apparently yearned and voted for, whilst viewing the perfectly decent EU democracy as the big bad wolf.
Obviously everyone demands that our political class improve, as they should do, but to state that the EU is ‘perfectly decent’ when it is accepted by citizens of all EU countries that much improvement and change is required, is, in my opinion, ludicrous.
Just because you declare quite broadly that it is accepted by EU citizens everywhere (hard to back that assertion up with evidence I would imagine) it is possible to accept what you say and still hold the EU to be a perfectly decent democracy. One feature of any decent democracy is that people are free to criticise, and personally at the moment I believe the EU version of democracy to be superior to the UK one, and your post above regarding politics in the UK somewhat backs that up.
How is the EU a more decent democracy than the UK? We are also free to criticise our government. When did that change according to you?
The political class in many EU countries is no better than in the UK. Just read the media in Europe on a regular basis and you will see that. Disillusionment is all over, hence the rise of populist and far right organisations.
Are you really saying that all countries are not seeking improvement from the EU? Even the likes of Merkel and Macron are saying it, not only the UK.
We are far from perfect, but neither is the EU and its component countries.
A coup!d of things that I think makes the EU democracy better is proportional representation and no House of Lords. I am aware there are alternative positions. At no time did I say that people are not at liberty to criticise the UK government, I ought to know I do it all the time.
Either way we are effectively breaking away from what is a very good deal (ie frictionless ties with 27 of our largest trading partners) as well as all the benefits and influence that comes with it...for a very very poor imitation of that deal.
Maybe the Brexiters should face reality and realise the world has moved on from colonial era Britain ruling the waves. We are now living in an open and global society and the days of hard borders, capital controls, nationalism and nativism are over. The rest of the world seems to embracing this; Brexiters are unique in wanting to regress to darker times.
If both sides are going to lose in this deal, it is because Remainers are going to be worse off than before in a worse off, poor Britain, whereas Brexiters hark for a world that ceased to exist a hundred years ago.
If Southbank is still upset that he has been betrayed, it is because time travel is technically impossible.
Maybe we could start a another war with the argies, and our wonderful friends and allies 'the french' could supply them with some more missiles.
The French are arms manufacturers and so is the United Kingdom. It happens that the Argentinians bought some of those French weapons. They could have just as easily bought some of ours. The United Kingdom sells weapons to pretty much anyone. UK made arms are in the hands of some of the most wicked people on earth. Scruples in international arms manufacturing are in very short supply regardless of the hand wringing of the governments.
I’m sure you are aware that our allies the French gave our military every assistance and codes available to try to minimise the effects of the Exocet missiles. I’m sure it helped but sadly not always enough.
It’s worth remembering the adage “live by the sword. Die by the sword”
You are aware french technicians stayed on in Argentina whilst the Falklands war was in progress to support them, particularly as some failed to fire. The french refuted it at the time but later had to apologise for admitting it happened. Nothing like a good local neighbour.
My understanding is that’s completely true and the technicians were employees of the French arms manufacturer and without the knowledge of the French authorities who you are correct were forced to apologise. It’s a tragic consequence and symptom of the system where such vast sums of money are made there is little control over who ends up with what and no genuine attempts to stop repressive regimes buying what they want.
There are lots of things that happened both pre and after, that have sadly been added to the 30 year rule to 50 year from the thatcher years. Obviously as there as still people alive whe yold a few belters.
Absolutely. Today the UK passport visa to China is £151 but an Irish one is £35. Not ten times any more admittedly but about five times more expensive.
So having dual nationality has nothing to do with Brexit, it just means cheaper visas?
It is one advantage. And for a while (it may still come to pass) one didn't need a visa to go to the EU. So as a fall back position if there is a no deal outcome I will be able to travel visa free to the EU but British passport holders maybe would not.
Fair enough. But because your post was Brexit related and on a Brexit thread, I had assumed you had a different rationale. Considering yourself as lucky because you can obtain a cheaper visa seems rather trite in this scenario. And I sincerely doubt we will ever need a visa to visit the EU whatever happens next.
I foresee a long period of some kind of action by brexiters and reaction by remainers. I also believe the onus is 100% on the brexit voters in the UK to sort it out, not the Irish, not the EU, not the remainers. Clearly a person like me will have to suffer the consequences of brexit, but I am one of the lucky ones with dual nationality
Comments
Barnier, May, Davis and Varadkar need to play out the next round first to its conclusion and then the nation can see the three options with perfect clarity: Norway + CU, a suboptimal FTA or abort the whole process.
The EU's rules make this clear, and all official statements to date agree with the intent of the rules.
Trade negotiations can only be entered into by the EU with third party countries. Entering into a transition period could easily be as much of a leap in the dark as beginning Article 50 talks.
While "sufficient progress" has, belatedly, been made (a journalist on the BBC's Dateline London echoed my belief that what has been agreed on Friday could easily have been agreed almost immediately on beginning negotiations - provided both sides were prepared), none of what has been signed off is carved in stone - though I worry about the impact of David Davis' comments today, particularly with reference to the Irish border, where, if he is to be believed and is representing the UK's official view, it would appear that the UK may not have been negotiating in good faith. I would expect that Theresa May will be required to tell the EU 27 whether David Davis was correct, which, in the worst case scenario, could put everything on hold.
In any event, I am sure that the mass media statements will be being digested across the EU, and will have an impact on forthcoming negotiations - which will be more more difficult anyway, and, for Article 50, need to be concluded in about 9-10 months.
So, no pressure then...
1. For most of the post war era the British economy has been in a state of growth. Sure there were periods of stagnation (most notably in the early 70s), there were also periods of Schumpeterian destruction which were both painful and divisive (most notably in the Thatcher years) but the general trend has been upwards. Environmental factors, diminishing resources and the growth of eastern economies has put quite a squeeze on expansion opportunities for UK businesses. Times are tough, and with my pessimist hat on, I can only see them getting worse. Politicians of the past could afford to bumble along and the advantage the UK had would be enough for the economy to grow. That is no longer the case.
2. Every act they take and every word they utter is out there in public in seconds. In the past politicians had the opportunity to carefully control their their public image. Nowadays, one slip of the tongue and people are tweeting away immediately.
That's not to defend them though. I still think they are a shower of shite. It's just that I'm not convinced that there was ever a golden age of politicians.
If you make weapons and sell them to people that you know sell them on to some very suspect individuals or regimes I don’t think you have much right to attempt the moral high ground.
The passport is a good safety net, I don't have need or want a British passport any more and the country will have to put up with me because I was born in Erith.
This country are no saints in that respect.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-arms-deals-sales-countries-human-rights-abusers-bahrain-saudi-arabia-israel-caat-bae-systems-a7853416.html
One feature of any decent democracy is that people are free to criticise, and personally at the moment I believe the EU version of democracy to be superior to the UK one, and your post above regarding politics in the UK somewhat backs that up.
Today the UK passport visa to China is £151 but an Irish one is £35. Not ten times any more admittedly but about five times more expensive.
The political class in many EU countries is no better than in the UK. Just read the media in Europe on a regular basis and you will see that. Disillusionment is all over, hence the rise of populist and far right organisations.
Are you really saying that all countries are not seeking improvement from the EU? Even the likes of Merkel and Macron are saying it, not only the UK.
We are far from perfect, but neither is the EU and its component countries.
I cant speak for what anyone else is thinking but to state here from someone who called member countries of the EU as our friends when as i have known for years they are not, to supply our enemy with military support when they say they are not isn't a friend to me. If the same thing happened tomorrow they would act exactly the same.
Not very patriotic Chippy.
At no time did I say that people are not at liberty to criticise the UK government, I ought to know I do it all the time.
I foresee a long period of some kind of action by brexiters and reaction by remainers.
I also believe the onus is 100% on the brexit voters in the UK to sort it out, not the Irish, not the EU, not the remainers.
Clearly a person like me will have to suffer the consequences of brexit, but I am one of the lucky ones with dual nationality