The collapse of trust in our politicians, our politics, our institutions and our post-war settlement is real and it is profound. It pervades every layer of British society: every class, every income level, every age group and every ideological leaning. The titled, the humble and the dogs in the street alike know that our democracy has gone wonky. The country is poorly run, by people who give the impression they are largely motivated by the prospect of personal advancement and the next opportunity to slip the dagger between one another’s ribs, by careerists who take a short-term view of big issues that properly require long-term responses, by parties that in the 21st century are outdated, unworkable coalitions of people who often have more in common with those who are nominally their opponents.
Well quite. However this is the democracy and sovereignty brexiters apparently yearned and voted for, whilst viewing the perfectly decent EU democracy as the big bad wolf.
Obviously everyone demands that our political class improve, as they should do, but to state that the EU is ‘perfectly decent’ when it is accepted by citizens of all EU countries that much improvement and change is required, is, in my opinion, ludicrous.
Just because you declare quite broadly that it is accepted by EU citizens everywhere (hard to back that assertion up with evidence I would imagine) it is possible to accept what you say and still hold the EU to be a perfectly decent democracy. One feature of any decent democracy is that people are free to criticise, and personally at the moment I believe the EU version of democracy to be superior to the UK one, and your post above regarding politics in the UK somewhat backs that up.
How is the EU a more decent democracy than the UK? We are also free to criticise our government. When did that change according to you?
The political class in many EU countries is no better than in the UK. Just read the media in Europe on a regular basis and you will see that. Disillusionment is all over, hence the rise of populist and far right organisations.
Are you really saying that all countries are not seeking improvement from the EU? Even the likes of Merkel and Macron are saying it, not only the UK.
We are far from perfect, but neither is the EU and its component countries.
A coup!d of things that I think makes the EU democracy better is proportional representation and no House of Lords. I am aware there are alternative positions. At no time did I say that people are not at liberty to criticise the UK government, I ought to know I do it all the time.
Ok, that’s your opinion.
I firmly do not believe that the EU, or any countries within it, have a ‘more decent’ democracy than the UK.
Nor do I believe EU democracy is ‘perfectly decent’, an opinion for which I am not alone as I previously explained.
Absolutely. Today the UK passport visa to China is £151 but an Irish one is £35. Not ten times any more admittedly but about five times more expensive.
So having dual nationality has nothing to do with Brexit, it just means cheaper visas?
It is one advantage. And for a while (it may still come to pass) one didn't need a visa to go to the EU. So as a fall back position if there is a no deal outcome I will be able to travel visa free to the EU but British passport holders maybe would not.
Fair enough. But because your post was Brexit related and on a Brexit thread, I had assumed you had a different rationale. Considering yourself as lucky because you can obtain a cheaper visa seems rather trite in this scenario. And I sincerely doubt we will ever need a visa to visit the EU whatever happens next.
I foresee a long period of some kind of action by brexiters and reaction by remainers. I also believe the onus is 100% on the brexit voters in the UK to sort it out, not the Irish, not the EU, not the remainers. Clearly a person like me will have to suffer the consequences of brexit, but I am one of the lucky ones with dual nationality
I understand why you call it trite, but I used it as my first example because so much of the brexit debate has been about money.
The collapse of trust in our politicians, our politics, our institutions and our post-war settlement is real and it is profound. It pervades every layer of British society: every class, every income level, every age group and every ideological leaning. The titled, the humble and the dogs in the street alike know that our democracy has gone wonky. The country is poorly run, by people who give the impression they are largely motivated by the prospect of personal advancement and the next opportunity to slip the dagger between one another’s ribs, by careerists who take a short-term view of big issues that properly require long-term responses, by parties that in the 21st century are outdated, unworkable coalitions of people who often have more in common with those who are nominally their opponents.
Well quite. However this is the democracy and sovereignty brexiters apparently yearned and voted for, whilst viewing the perfectly decent EU democracy as the big bad wolf.
Obviously everyone demands that our political class improve, as they should do, but to state that the EU is ‘perfectly decent’ when it is accepted by citizens of all EU countries that much improvement and change is required, is, in my opinion, ludicrous.
Just because you declare quite broadly that it is accepted by EU citizens everywhere (hard to back that assertion up with evidence I would imagine) it is possible to accept what you say and still hold the EU to be a perfectly decent democracy. One feature of any decent democracy is that people are free to criticise, and personally at the moment I believe the EU version of democracy to be superior to the UK one, and your post above regarding politics in the UK somewhat backs that up.
How is the EU a more decent democracy than the UK? We are also free to criticise our government. When did that change according to you?
The political class in many EU countries is no better than in the UK. Just read the media in Europe on a regular basis and you will see that. Disillusionment is all over, hence the rise of populist and far right organisations.
Are you really saying that all countries are not seeking improvement from the EU? Even the likes of Merkel and Macron are saying it, not only the UK.
We are far from perfect, but neither is the EU and its component countries.
A coup!d of things that I think makes the EU democracy better is proportional representation and no House of Lords. I am aware there are alternative positions. At no time did I say that people are not at liberty to criticise the UK government, I ought to know I do it all the time.
Ok, that’s your opinion.
I firmly do not believe that the EU, or any countries within it, have a ‘more decent’ democracy than the UK.
Nor do I believe EU democracy is ‘perfectly decent’, an opinion for which I am not alone as I previously explained.
I’d also like to add that whether or not we are in the EU, that is not going to change ‘proportional representation or the House of Lords’.
Absolutely. Today the UK passport visa to China is £151 but an Irish one is £35. Not ten times any more admittedly but about five times more expensive.
So having dual nationality has nothing to do with Brexit, it just means cheaper visas?
It is one advantage. And for a while (it may still come to pass) one didn't need a visa to go to the EU. So as a fall back position if there is a no deal outcome I will be able to travel visa free to the EU but British passport holders maybe would not.
Fair enough. But because your post was Brexit related and on a Brexit thread, I had assumed you had a different rationale. Considering yourself as lucky because you can obtain a cheaper visa seems rather trite in this scenario. And I sincerely doubt we will ever need a visa to visit the EU whatever happens next.
I foresee a long period of some kind of action by brexiters and reaction by remainers. I also believe the onus is 100% on the brexit voters in the UK to sort it out, not the Irish, not the EU, not the remainers. Clearly a person like me will have to suffer the consequences of brexit, but I am one of the lucky ones with dual nationality
I understand why you call it trite, but I used it as my first example because so much of the brexit debate has been about money.
I don’t want to belabour the point so will make this my last comment: what are the other examples?
The collapse of trust in our politicians, our politics, our institutions and our post-war settlement is real and it is profound. It pervades every layer of British society: every class, every income level, every age group and every ideological leaning. The titled, the humble and the dogs in the street alike know that our democracy has gone wonky. The country is poorly run, by people who give the impression they are largely motivated by the prospect of personal advancement and the next opportunity to slip the dagger between one another’s ribs, by careerists who take a short-term view of big issues that properly require long-term responses, by parties that in the 21st century are outdated, unworkable coalitions of people who often have more in common with those who are nominally their opponents.
Well quite. However this is the democracy and sovereignty brexiters apparently yearned and voted for, whilst viewing the perfectly decent EU democracy as the big bad wolf.
Obviously everyone demands that our political class improve, as they should do, but to state that the EU is ‘perfectly decent’ when it is accepted by citizens of all EU countries that much improvement and change is required, is, in my opinion, ludicrous.
Just because you declare quite broadly that it is accepted by EU citizens everywhere (hard to back that assertion up with evidence I would imagine) it is possible to accept what you say and still hold the EU to be a perfectly decent democracy. One feature of any decent democracy is that people are free to criticise, and personally at the moment I believe the EU version of democracy to be superior to the UK one, and your post above regarding politics in the UK somewhat backs that up.
How is the EU a more decent democracy than the UK? We are also free to criticise our government. When did that change according to you?
The political class in many EU countries is no better than in the UK. Just read the media in Europe on a regular basis and you will see that. Disillusionment is all over, hence the rise of populist and far right organisations.
Are you really saying that all countries are not seeking improvement from the EU? Even the likes of Merkel and Macron are saying it, not only the UK.
We are far from perfect, but neither is the EU and its component countries.
A coup!d of things that I think makes the EU democracy better is proportional representation and no House of Lords. I am aware there are alternative positions. At no time did I say that people are not at liberty to criticise the UK government, I ought to know I do it all the time.
Ok, that’s your opinion.
I firmly do not believe that the EU, or any countries within it, have a ‘more decent’ democracy than the UK.
Nor do I believe EU democracy is ‘perfectly decent’, an opinion for which I am not alone as I previously explained.
On this it looks like we agree to disagree, I defend my position because above you called it 'ludicrous'.
The collapse of trust in our politicians, our politics, our institutions and our post-war settlement is real and it is profound. It pervades every layer of British society: every class, every income level, every age group and every ideological leaning. The titled, the humble and the dogs in the street alike know that our democracy has gone wonky. The country is poorly run, by people who give the impression they are largely motivated by the prospect of personal advancement and the next opportunity to slip the dagger between one another’s ribs, by careerists who take a short-term view of big issues that properly require long-term responses, by parties that in the 21st century are outdated, unworkable coalitions of people who often have more in common with those who are nominally their opponents.
Well quite. However this is the democracy and sovereignty brexiters apparently yearned and voted for, whilst viewing the perfectly decent EU democracy as the big bad wolf.
Obviously everyone demands that our political class improve, as they should do, but to state that the EU is ‘perfectly decent’ when it is accepted by citizens of all EU countries that much improvement and change is required, is, in my opinion, ludicrous.
Just because you declare quite broadly that it is accepted by EU citizens everywhere (hard to back that assertion up with evidence I would imagine) it is possible to accept what you say and still hold the EU to be a perfectly decent democracy. One feature of any decent democracy is that people are free to criticise, and personally at the moment I believe the EU version of democracy to be superior to the UK one, and your post above regarding politics in the UK somewhat backs that up.
How is the EU a more decent democracy than the UK? We are also free to criticise our government. When did that change according to you?
The political class in many EU countries is no better than in the UK. Just read the media in Europe on a regular basis and you will see that. Disillusionment is all over, hence the rise of populist and far right organisations.
Are you really saying that all countries are not seeking improvement from the EU? Even the likes of Merkel and Macron are saying it, not only the UK.
We are far from perfect, but neither is the EU and its component countries.
A coup!d of things that I think makes the EU democracy better is proportional representation and no House of Lords. I am aware there are alternative positions. At no time did I say that people are not at liberty to criticise the UK government, I ought to know I do it all the time.
Ok, that’s your opinion.
I firmly do not believe that the EU, or any countries within it, have a ‘more decent’ democracy than the UK.
Nor do I believe EU democracy is ‘perfectly decent’, an opinion for which I am not alone as I previously explained.
I’d also like to add that whether or not we are in the EU, that is not going to change ‘proportional representation or the House of Lords’.
It might if an EU superstate happens and we were in the EU.
Either way we are effectively breaking away from what is a very good deal (ie frictionless ties with 27 of our largest trading partners) as well as all the benefits and influence that comes with it...for a very very poor imitation of that deal.
Maybe the Brexiters should face reality and realise the world has moved on from colonial era Britain ruling the waves. We are now living in an open and global society and the days of hard borders, capital controls, nationalism and nativism are over. The rest of the world seems to embracing this; Brexiters are unique in wanting to regress to darker times.
If both sides are going to lose in this deal, it is because Remainers are going to be worse off than before in a worse off, poor Britain, whereas Brexiters hark for a world that ceased to exist a hundred years ago.
If Southbank is still upset that he has been betrayed, it is because time travel is technically impossible.
Maybe we could start a another war with the argies, and our wonderful friends and allies 'the french' could supply them with some more missiles.
Yeah, or the USA with a replacement for the General Belgrano....
You obviously think that the weopans supplied by them killed 32 of our armed forces means nothing, wonderr if that was your son, brother, relative or friend that was killed you would still think the same. Nothing like a good partriot.
I think what he is saying is that the Argentinian military was supplied with weapons, ammunition ad other military materiel by a number of countries - the idea that the French were any worse than any of the other suppliers, when there is clear evidence that once the Falklands were invaded the French Government sought to ensure that an embargo was established to prevent Argentina acquiring any more, particularly Exocets (the actions of the technicians in Argentina were not approved by the Government), is just mad. Along with the rest of the European Community, they immediately supported the UK, unlike the USA (which also did not freeze military connections immediately) or, allegedly, Israel, who are said to have supplied Argentina during the conflict.
The ameticans supported us with intelligence both before during and after. It was pure fluke that we won that war as even 6 months later we would not have had a navy to do so.
I cant speak for what anyone else is thinking but to state here from someone who called member countries of the EU as our friends when as i have known for years they are not, to supply our enemy with military support when they say they are not isn't a friend to me. If the same thing happened tomorrow they would act exactly the same.
Have you read my earlier posts ? The U.K. supplies weapons to pretty much anyone with cash to buy them. There is absolute certainty that U.K. manufactured arms are being used by Isis.
I’m afraid that if you dabble in selling arms to earn billions of pounds you have to accept others will do likewise. Sooner or later it will come back to hurt you although those raking in the money will not give a tinkers cuss about that.
Absolutely. Today the UK passport visa to China is £151 but an Irish one is £35. Not ten times any more admittedly but about five times more expensive.
So having dual nationality has nothing to do with Brexit, it just means cheaper visas?
It is one advantage. And for a while (it may still come to pass) one didn't need a visa to go to the EU. So as a fall back position if there is a no deal outcome I will be able to travel visa free to the EU but British passport holders maybe would not.
Fair enough. But because your post was Brexit related and on a Brexit thread, I had assumed you had a different rationale. Considering yourself as lucky because you can obtain a cheaper visa seems rather trite in this scenario. And I sincerely doubt we will ever need a visa to visit the EU whatever happens next.
I foresee a long period of some kind of action by brexiters and reaction by remainers. I also believe the onus is 100% on the brexit voters in the UK to sort it out, not the Irish, not the EU, not the remainers. Clearly a person like me will have to suffer the consequences of brexit, but I am one of the lucky ones with dual nationality
I understand why you call it trite, but I used it as my first example because so much of the brexit debate has been about money.
I don’t want to belabour the point so will make this my last comment: what are the other examples?
An other example is that because of formal Irish neutrality in the past, an Irish passport holder may attract fewer enemies. Oh and if I was holed up in a Iranian jail I wouldn't have Boris Johnson making things worse.
The collapse of trust in our politicians, our politics, our institutions and our post-war settlement is real and it is profound. It pervades every layer of British society: every class, every income level, every age group and every ideological leaning. The titled, the humble and the dogs in the street alike know that our democracy has gone wonky. The country is poorly run, by people who give the impression they are largely motivated by the prospect of personal advancement and the next opportunity to slip the dagger between one another’s ribs, by careerists who take a short-term view of big issues that properly require long-term responses, by parties that in the 21st century are outdated, unworkable coalitions of people who often have more in common with those who are nominally their opponents.
Well quite. However this is the democracy and sovereignty brexiters apparently yearned and voted for, whilst viewing the perfectly decent EU democracy as the big bad wolf.
Obviously everyone demands that our political class improve, as they should do, but to state that the EU is ‘perfectly decent’ when it is accepted by citizens of all EU countries that much improvement and change is required, is, in my opinion, ludicrous.
Just because you declare quite broadly that it is accepted by EU citizens everywhere (hard to back that assertion up with evidence I would imagine) it is possible to accept what you say and still hold the EU to be a perfectly decent democracy. One feature of any decent democracy is that people are free to criticise, and personally at the moment I believe the EU version of democracy to be superior to the UK one, and your post above regarding politics in the UK somewhat backs that up.
How is the EU a more decent democracy than the UK? We are also free to criticise our government. When did that change according to you?
The political class in many EU countries is no better than in the UK. Just read the media in Europe on a regular basis and you will see that. Disillusionment is all over, hence the rise of populist and far right organisations.
Are you really saying that all countries are not seeking improvement from the EU? Even the likes of Merkel and Macron are saying it, not only the UK.
We are far from perfect, but neither is the EU and its component countries.
A coup!d of things that I think makes the EU democracy better is proportional representation and no House of Lords. I am aware there are alternative positions. At no time did I say that people are not at liberty to criticise the UK government, I ought to know I do it all the time.
Ok, that’s your opinion.
I firmly do not believe that the EU, or any countries within it, have a ‘more decent’ democracy than the UK.
Nor do I believe EU democracy is ‘perfectly decent’, an opinion for which I am not alone as I previously explained.
I’d also like to add that whether or not we are in the EU, that is not going to change ‘proportional representation or the House of Lords’.
It might if an EU superstate happens and we were in the EU.
But every remainer keeps telling me that will never happen.
The collapse of trust in our politicians, our politics, our institutions and our post-war settlement is real and it is profound. It pervades every layer of British society: every class, every income level, every age group and every ideological leaning. The titled, the humble and the dogs in the street alike know that our democracy has gone wonky. The country is poorly run, by people who give the impression they are largely motivated by the prospect of personal advancement and the next opportunity to slip the dagger between one another’s ribs, by careerists who take a short-term view of big issues that properly require long-term responses, by parties that in the 21st century are outdated, unworkable coalitions of people who often have more in common with those who are nominally their opponents.
Well quite. However this is the democracy and sovereignty brexiters apparently yearned and voted for, whilst viewing the perfectly decent EU democracy as the big bad wolf.
Obviously everyone demands that our political class improve, as they should do, but to state that the EU is ‘perfectly decent’ when it is accepted by citizens of all EU countries that much improvement and change is required, is, in my opinion, ludicrous.
Just because you declare quite broadly that it is accepted by EU citizens everywhere (hard to back that assertion up with evidence I would imagine) it is possible to accept what you say and still hold the EU to be a perfectly decent democracy. One feature of any decent democracy is that people are free to criticise, and personally at the moment I believe the EU version of democracy to be superior to the UK one, and your post above regarding politics in the UK somewhat backs that up.
How is the EU a more decent democracy than the UK? We are also free to criticise our government. When did that change according to you?
The political class in many EU countries is no better than in the UK. Just read the media in Europe on a regular basis and you will see that. Disillusionment is all over, hence the rise of populist and far right organisations.
Are you really saying that all countries are not seeking improvement from the EU? Even the likes of Merkel and Macron are saying it, not only the UK.
We are far from perfect, but neither is the EU and its component countries.
A coup!d of things that I think makes the EU democracy better is proportional representation and no House of Lords. I am aware there are alternative positions. At no time did I say that people are not at liberty to criticise the UK government, I ought to know I do it all the time.
Ok, that’s your opinion.
I firmly do not believe that the EU, or any countries within it, have a ‘more decent’ democracy than the UK.
Nor do I believe EU democracy is ‘perfectly decent’, an opinion for which I am not alone as I previously explained.
I’d also like to add that whether or not we are in the EU, that is not going to change ‘proportional representation or the House of Lords’.
It might if an EU superstate happens and we were in the EU.
But every remainer keeps telling me that will never happen.
Not me. It might be on the table one day, and it is something I might vote for if I were in a position to do so.
Absolutely. Today the UK passport visa to China is £151 but an Irish one is £35. Not ten times any more admittedly but about five times more expensive.
So having dual nationality has nothing to do with Brexit, it just means cheaper visas?
It is one advantage. And for a while (it may still come to pass) one didn't need a visa to go to the EU. So as a fall back position if there is a no deal outcome I will be able to travel visa free to the EU but British passport holders maybe would not.
Fair enough. But because your post was Brexit related and on a Brexit thread, I had assumed you had a different rationale. Considering yourself as lucky because you can obtain a cheaper visa seems rather trite in this scenario. And I sincerely doubt we will ever need a visa to visit the EU whatever happens next.
I foresee a long period of some kind of action by brexiters and reaction by remainers. I also believe the onus is 100% on the brexit voters in the UK to sort it out, not the Irish, not the EU, not the remainers. Clearly a person like me will have to suffer the consequences of brexit, but I am one of the lucky ones with dual nationality
I understand why you call it trite, but I used it as my first example because so much of the brexit debate has been about money.
I don’t want to belabour the point so will make this my last comment: what are the other examples?
An other example is that because of formal Irish neutrality in the past, an Irish passport holder may attract fewer enemies. Oh and if I was holed up in a Iranian jail I wouldn't have Boris Johnson making things worse.
Ok, but once again that would be the issue whether or not we were in the EU.
The collapse of trust in our politicians, our politics, our institutions and our post-war settlement is real and it is profound. It pervades every layer of British society: every class, every income level, every age group and every ideological leaning. The titled, the humble and the dogs in the street alike know that our democracy has gone wonky. The country is poorly run, by people who give the impression they are largely motivated by the prospect of personal advancement and the next opportunity to slip the dagger between one another’s ribs, by careerists who take a short-term view of big issues that properly require long-term responses, by parties that in the 21st century are outdated, unworkable coalitions of people who often have more in common with those who are nominally their opponents.
Well quite. However this is the democracy and sovereignty brexiters apparently yearned and voted for, whilst viewing the perfectly decent EU democracy as the big bad wolf.
Obviously everyone demands that our political class improve, as they should do, but to state that the EU is ‘perfectly decent’ when it is accepted by citizens of all EU countries that much improvement and change is required, is, in my opinion, ludicrous.
Just because you declare quite broadly that it is accepted by EU citizens everywhere (hard to back that assertion up with evidence I would imagine) it is possible to accept what you say and still hold the EU to be a perfectly decent democracy. One feature of any decent democracy is that people are free to criticise, and personally at the moment I believe the EU version of democracy to be superior to the UK one, and your post above regarding politics in the UK somewhat backs that up.
How is the EU a more decent democracy than the UK? We are also free to criticise our government. When did that change according to you?
The political class in many EU countries is no better than in the UK. Just read the media in Europe on a regular basis and you will see that. Disillusionment is all over, hence the rise of populist and far right organisations.
Are you really saying that all countries are not seeking improvement from the EU? Even the likes of Merkel and Macron are saying it, not only the UK.
We are far from perfect, but neither is the EU and its component countries.
A coup!d of things that I think makes the EU democracy better is proportional representation and no House of Lords. I am aware there are alternative positions. At no time did I say that people are not at liberty to criticise the UK government, I ought to know I do it all the time.
Ok, that’s your opinion.
I firmly do not believe that the EU, or any countries within it, have a ‘more decent’ democracy than the UK.
Nor do I believe EU democracy is ‘perfectly decent’, an opinion for which I am not alone as I previously explained.
I’d also like to add that whether or not we are in the EU, that is not going to change ‘proportional representation or the House of Lords’.
It might if an EU superstate happens and we were in the EU.
But every remainer keeps telling me that will never happen.
Not me. It might be on the table one day, and it is something I might vote for if I were in a position to do so.
And, as I have said frequently, you would be right to do so because, ultimately, that is what the EU needs.
Either way we are effectively breaking away from what is a very good deal (ie frictionless ties with 27 of our largest trading partners) as well as all the benefits and influence that comes with it...for a very very poor imitation of that deal.
Maybe the Brexiters should face reality and realise the world has moved on from colonial era Britain ruling the waves. We are now living in an open and global society and the days of hard borders, capital controls, nationalism and nativism are over. The rest of the world seems to embracing this; Brexiters are unique in wanting to regress to darker times.
If both sides are going to lose in this deal, it is because Remainers are going to be worse off than before in a worse off, poor Britain, whereas Brexiters hark for a world that ceased to exist a hundred years ago.
If Southbank is still upset that he has been betrayed, it is because time travel is technically impossible.
Maybe we could start a another war with the argies, and our wonderful friends and allies 'the french' could supply them with some more missiles.
Yeah, or the USA with a replacement for the General Belgrano....
You obviously think that the weopans supplied by them killed 32 of our armed forces means nothing, wonderr if that was your son, brother, relative or friend that was killed you would still think the same. Nothing like a good partriot.
I think what he is saying is that the Argentinian military was supplied with weapons, ammunition ad other military materiel by a number of countries - the idea that the French were any worse than any of the other suppliers, when there is clear evidence that once the Falklands were invaded the French Government sought to ensure that an embargo was established to prevent Argentina acquiring any more, particularly Exocets (the actions of the technicians in Argentina were not approved by the Government), is just mad. Along with the rest of the European Community, they immediately supported the UK, unlike the USA (which also did not freeze military connections immediately) or, allegedly, Israel, who are said to have supplied Argentina during the conflict.
The ameticans supported us with intelligence both before during and after. It was pure fluke that we won that war as even 6 months later we would not have had a navy to do so.
I cant speak for what anyone else is thinking but to state here from someone who called member countries of the EU as our friends when as i have known for years they are not, to supply our enemy with military support when they say they are not isn't a friend to me. If the same thing happened tomorrow they would act exactly the same.
It was "pure fluke" that we won the Falklands War ? I'm sure it was more down the the tenacity and bravery of our armed forces.
It doesn't take too much googling to find that the Argentine Air Force used English Electric Canberra bombers. Their navy had Westland Lynx helicopters and their army used Sterling sub machine guns. Worst of all though they used Roland missiles to defend Stanley Airbase. You know who I blame for that!
Absolutely. Today the UK passport visa to China is £151 but an Irish one is £35. Not ten times any more admittedly but about five times more expensive.
So having dual nationality has nothing to do with Brexit, it just means cheaper visas?
It is one advantage. And for a while (it may still come to pass) one didn't need a visa to go to the EU. So as a fall back position if there is a no deal outcome I will be able to travel visa free to the EU but British passport holders maybe would not.
Fair enough. But because your post was Brexit related and on a Brexit thread, I had assumed you had a different rationale. Considering yourself as lucky because you can obtain a cheaper visa seems rather trite in this scenario. And I sincerely doubt we will ever need a visa to visit the EU whatever happens next.
I foresee a long period of some kind of action by brexiters and reaction by remainers. I also believe the onus is 100% on the brexit voters in the UK to sort it out, not the Irish, not the EU, not the remainers. Clearly a person like me will have to suffer the consequences of brexit, but I am one of the lucky ones with dual nationality
I understand why you call it trite, but I used it as my first example because so much of the brexit debate has been about money.
I don’t want to belabour the point so will make this my last comment: what are the other examples?
An other example is that because of formal Irish neutrality in the past, an Irish passport holder may attract fewer enemies. Oh and if I was holed up in a Iranian jail I wouldn't have Boris Johnson making things worse.
Ok, but once again that would be the issue whether or not we were in the EU.
Absolutely. Advantages to an Irish passport both in and out of the EU.
The collapse of trust in our politicians, our politics, our institutions and our post-war settlement is real and it is profound. It pervades every layer of British society: every class, every income level, every age group and every ideological leaning. The titled, the humble and the dogs in the street alike know that our democracy has gone wonky. The country is poorly run, by people who give the impression they are largely motivated by the prospect of personal advancement and the next opportunity to slip the dagger between one another’s ribs, by careerists who take a short-term view of big issues that properly require long-term responses, by parties that in the 21st century are outdated, unworkable coalitions of people who often have more in common with those who are nominally their opponents.
Well quite. However this is the democracy and sovereignty brexiters apparently yearned and voted for, whilst viewing the perfectly decent EU democracy as the big bad wolf.
Obviously everyone demands that our political class improve, as they should do, but to state that the EU is ‘perfectly decent’ when it is accepted by citizens of all EU countries that much improvement and change is required, is, in my opinion, ludicrous.
Just because you declare quite broadly that it is accepted by EU citizens everywhere (hard to back that assertion up with evidence I would imagine) it is possible to accept what you say and still hold the EU to be a perfectly decent democracy. One feature of any decent democracy is that people are free to criticise, and personally at the moment I believe the EU version of democracy to be superior to the UK one, and your post above regarding politics in the UK somewhat backs that up.
How is the EU a more decent democracy than the UK? We are also free to criticise our government. When did that change according to you?
The political class in many EU countries is no better than in the UK. Just read the media in Europe on a regular basis and you will see that. Disillusionment is all over, hence the rise of populist and far right organisations.
Are you really saying that all countries are not seeking improvement from the EU? Even the likes of Merkel and Macron are saying it, not only the UK.
We are far from perfect, but neither is the EU and its component countries.
A coup!d of things that I think makes the EU democracy better is proportional representation and no House of Lords. I am aware there are alternative positions. At no time did I say that people are not at liberty to criticise the UK government, I ought to know I do it all the time.
Ok, that’s your opinion.
I firmly do not believe that the EU, or any countries within it, have a ‘more decent’ democracy than the UK.
Nor do I believe EU democracy is ‘perfectly decent’, an opinion for which I am not alone as I previously explained.
I’d also like to add that whether or not we are in the EU, that is not going to change ‘proportional representation or the House of Lords’.
It might if an EU superstate happens and we were in the EU.
But every remainer keeps telling me that will never happen.
Not me. It might be on the table one day, and it is something I might vote for if I were in a position to do so.
And, as I have said frequently, you would be right to do so because, ultimately, that is what the EU needs.
But it is absolutely not for me.
Well those with your view (I suppose) won the referendum so for that at least you can gain some comfort. I lost and need to get over it but reserve the (democratic?) right to be very critical about what followed the vote.
Either way we are effectively breaking away from what is a very good deal (ie frictionless ties with 27 of our largest trading partners) as well as all the benefits and influence that comes with it...for a very very poor imitation of that deal.
Maybe the Brexiters should face reality and realise the world has moved on from colonial era Britain ruling the waves. We are now living in an open and global society and the days of hard borders, capital controls, nationalism and nativism are over. The rest of the world seems to embracing this; Brexiters are unique in wanting to regress to darker times.
If both sides are going to lose in this deal, it is because Remainers are going to be worse off than before in a worse off, poor Britain, whereas Brexiters hark for a world that ceased to exist a hundred years ago.
If Southbank is still upset that he has been betrayed, it is because time travel is technically impossible.
Maybe we could start a another war with the argies, and our wonderful friends and allies 'the french' could supply them with some more missiles.
Yeah, or the USA with a replacement for the General Belgrano....
You obviously think that the weopans supplied by them killed 32 of our armed forces means nothing, wonderr if that was your son, brother, relative or friend that was killed you would still think the same. Nothing like a good partriot.
I think what he is saying is that the Argentinian military was supplied with weapons, ammunition ad other military materiel by a number of countries - the idea that the French were any worse than any of the other suppliers, when there is clear evidence that once the Falklands were invaded the French Government sought to ensure that an embargo was established to prevent Argentina acquiring any more, particularly Exocets (the actions of the technicians in Argentina were not approved by the Government), is just mad. Along with the rest of the European Community, they immediately supported the UK, unlike the USA (which also did not freeze military connections immediately) or, allegedly, Israel, who are said to have supplied Argentina during the conflict.
Thank you - you put it much more succinctly (and politely) than I would have done. It's clear though that the chipster is not that keen on the French. He asks what if it happened again. Well, presumably, at least for the next couple of years, we'd have to invoke the agreement with the French to borrow their aircraft carrier. (I assume that agreement is still in place and will remain so pre or post Brexit?)
The collapse of trust in our politicians, our politics, our institutions and our post-war settlement is real and it is profound. It pervades every layer of British society: every class, every income level, every age group and every ideological leaning. The titled, the humble and the dogs in the street alike know that our democracy has gone wonky. The country is poorly run, by people who give the impression they are largely motivated by the prospect of personal advancement and the next opportunity to slip the dagger between one another’s ribs, by careerists who take a short-term view of big issues that properly require long-term responses, by parties that in the 21st century are outdated, unworkable coalitions of people who often have more in common with those who are nominally their opponents.
Well quite. However this is the democracy and sovereignty brexiters apparently yearned and voted for, whilst viewing the perfectly decent EU democracy as the big bad wolf.
Obviously everyone demands that our political class improve, as they should do, but to state that the EU is ‘perfectly decent’ when it is accepted by citizens of all EU countries that much improvement and change is required, is, in my opinion, ludicrous.
Just because you declare quite broadly that it is accepted by EU citizens everywhere (hard to back that assertion up with evidence I would imagine) it is possible to accept what you say and still hold the EU to be a perfectly decent democracy. One feature of any decent democracy is that people are free to criticise, and personally at the moment I believe the EU version of democracy to be superior to the UK one, and your post above regarding politics in the UK somewhat backs that up.
How is the EU a more decent democracy than the UK? We are also free to criticise our government. When did that change according to you?
The political class in many EU countries is no better than in the UK. Just read the media in Europe on a regular basis and you will see that. Disillusionment is all over, hence the rise of populist and far right organisations.
Are you really saying that all countries are not seeking improvement from the EU? Even the likes of Merkel and Macron are saying it, not only the UK.
We are far from perfect, but neither is the EU and its component countries.
A coup!d of things that I think makes the EU democracy better is proportional representation and no House of Lords. I am aware there are alternative positions. At no time did I say that people are not at liberty to criticise the UK government, I ought to know I do it all the time.
Ok, that’s your opinion.
I firmly do not believe that the EU, or any countries within it, have a ‘more decent’ democracy than the UK.
Nor do I believe EU democracy is ‘perfectly decent’, an opinion for which I am not alone as I previously explained.
I’d also like to add that whether or not we are in the EU, that is not going to change ‘proportional representation or the House of Lords’.
It might if an EU superstate happens and we were in the EU.
But every remainer keeps telling me that will never happen.
Not me. It might be on the table one day, and it is something I might vote for if I were in a position to do so.
And, as I have said frequently, you would be right to do so because, ultimately, that is what the EU needs.
But it is absolutely not for me.
Well those with your view (I suppose) won the referendum so for that at least you can gain some comfort. I lost and need to get over it but reserve the (democratic?) right to be very critical about what followed the vote.
You keep saying you lost so you have to get over it. Thankfully, most Remain voters don't share that view. The debate has continued to rage on this forum over the last 18 months, as indeed it has across the country, and Project Fear has been shown, without a shadow of doubt, to be Project Truth. Cold hard facts are proving day after day what a moronic, extravagantly expensive and impossible project Brexit is. An expense the country can ill afford. And all because the looney right wing element of the Tory party, funded by the dark money of the Brexit elites, never accepted and never got over the original referendum 40 years ago. I believe a very significant number of Remain voters will never accept Brexit and will spend the next 40 years, if it takes that long, trying reverse or stop it.
The collapse of trust in our politicians, our politics, our institutions and our post-war settlement is real and it is profound. It pervades every layer of British society: every class, every income level, every age group and every ideological leaning. The titled, the humble and the dogs in the street alike know that our democracy has gone wonky. The country is poorly run, by people who give the impression they are largely motivated by the prospect of personal advancement and the next opportunity to slip the dagger between one another’s ribs, by careerists who take a short-term view of big issues that properly require long-term responses, by parties that in the 21st century are outdated, unworkable coalitions of people who often have more in common with those who are nominally their opponents.
Well quite. However this is the democracy and sovereignty brexiters apparently yearned and voted for, whilst viewing the perfectly decent EU democracy as the big bad wolf.
Obviously everyone demands that our political class improve, as they should do, but to state that the EU is ‘perfectly decent’ when it is accepted by citizens of all EU countries that much improvement and change is required, is, in my opinion, ludicrous.
Just because you declare quite broadly that it is accepted by EU citizens everywhere (hard to back that assertion up with evidence I would imagine) it is possible to accept what you say and still hold the EU to be a perfectly decent democracy. One feature of any decent democracy is that people are free to criticise, and personally at the moment I believe the EU version of democracy to be superior to the UK one, and your post above regarding politics in the UK somewhat backs that up.
How is the EU a more decent democracy than the UK? We are also free to criticise our government. When did that change according to you?
The political class in many EU countries is no better than in the UK. Just read the media in Europe on a regular basis and you will see that. Disillusionment is all over, hence the rise of populist and far right organisations.
Are you really saying that all countries are not seeking improvement from the EU? Even the likes of Merkel and Macron are saying it, not only the UK.
We are far from perfect, but neither is the EU and its component countries.
A coup!d of things that I think makes the EU democracy better is proportional representation and no House of Lords. I am aware there are alternative positions. At no time did I say that people are not at liberty to criticise the UK government, I ought to know I do it all the time.
Ok, that’s your opinion.
I firmly do not believe that the EU, or any countries within it, have a ‘more decent’ democracy than the UK.
Nor do I believe EU democracy is ‘perfectly decent’, an opinion for which I am not alone as I previously explained.
I’d also like to add that whether or not we are in the EU, that is not going to change ‘proportional representation or the House of Lords’.
It might if an EU superstate happens and we were in the EU.
But every remainer keeps telling me that will never happen.
Not me. It might be on the table one day, and it is something I might vote for if I were in a position to do so.
And, as I have said frequently, you would be right to do so because, ultimately, that is what the EU needs.
But it is absolutely not for me.
Well those with your view (I suppose) won the referendum so for that at least you can gain some comfort. I lost and need to get over it but reserve the (democratic?) right to be very critical about what followed the vote.
You keep saying you lost so you have to get over it. Thankfully, most Remain voters don't share that view. The debate has continued to rage on this forum over the last 18 months, as indeed it has across the country, and Project Fear has been shown, without a shadow of doubt, to be Project Truth. Cold hard facts are proving day after day what a moronic, extravagantly expensive and impossible project Brexit is. An expense the country can ill afford. And all because the looney right wing element of the Tory party, funded by the dark money of the Brexit elites, never accepted and never got over the original referendum 40 years ago. I believe a very significant number of Remain voters will never accept Brexit and will spend the next 40 years, if it takes that long, trying reverse or stop it.
The collapse of trust in our politicians, our politics, our institutions and our post-war settlement is real and it is profound. It pervades every layer of British society: every class, every income level, every age group and every ideological leaning. The titled, the humble and the dogs in the street alike know that our democracy has gone wonky. The country is poorly run, by people who give the impression they are largely motivated by the prospect of personal advancement and the next opportunity to slip the dagger between one another’s ribs, by careerists who take a short-term view of big issues that properly require long-term responses, by parties that in the 21st century are outdated, unworkable coalitions of people who often have more in common with those who are nominally their opponents.
Well quite. However this is the democracy and sovereignty brexiters apparently yearned and voted for, whilst viewing the perfectly decent EU democracy as the big bad wolf.
Obviously everyone demands that our political class improve, as they should do, but to state that the EU is ‘perfectly decent’ when it is accepted by citizens of all EU countries that much improvement and change is required, is, in my opinion, ludicrous.
Just because you declare quite broadly that it is accepted by EU citizens everywhere (hard to back that assertion up with evidence I would imagine) it is possible to accept what you say and still hold the EU to be a perfectly decent democracy. One feature of any decent democracy is that people are free to criticise, and personally at the moment I believe the EU version of democracy to be superior to the UK one, and your post above regarding politics in the UK somewhat backs that up.
How is the EU a more decent democracy than the UK? We are also free to criticise our government. When did that change according to you?
The political class in many EU countries is no better than in the UK. Just read the media in Europe on a regular basis and you will see that. Disillusionment is all over, hence the rise of populist and far right organisations.
Are you really saying that all countries are not seeking improvement from the EU? Even the likes of Merkel and Macron are saying it, not only the UK.
We are far from perfect, but neither is the EU and its component countries.
A coup!d of things that I think makes the EU democracy better is proportional representation and no House of Lords. I am aware there are alternative positions. At no time did I say that people are not at liberty to criticise the UK government, I ought to know I do it all the time.
Ok, that’s your opinion.
I firmly do not believe that the EU, or any countries within it, have a ‘more decent’ democracy than the UK.
Nor do I believe EU democracy is ‘perfectly decent’, an opinion for which I am not alone as I previously explained.
I’d also like to add that whether or not we are in the EU, that is not going to change ‘proportional representation or the House of Lords’.
It might if an EU superstate happens and we were in the EU.
But every remainer keeps telling me that will never happen.
Not me. It might be on the table one day, and it is something I might vote for if I were in a position to do so.
And, as I have said frequently, you would be right to do so because, ultimately, that is what the EU needs.
But it is absolutely not for me.
Well those with your view (I suppose) won the referendum so for that at least you can gain some comfort. I lost and need to get over it but reserve the (democratic?) right to be very critical about what followed the vote.
You keep saying you lost so you have to get over it. Thankfully, most Remain voters don't share that view. The debate has continued to rage on this forum over the last 18 months, as indeed it has across the country, and Project Fear has been shown, without a shadow of doubt, to be Project Truth. Cold hard facts are proving day after day what a moronic, extravagantly expensive and impossible project Brexit is. An expense the country can ill afford. And all because the looney right wing element of the Tory party, funded by the dark money of the Brexit elites, never accepted and never got over the original referendum 40 years ago. I believe a very significant number of Remain voters will never accept Brexit and will spend the next 40 years, if it takes that long, trying reverse or stop it.
The brexit vote can never be reversed. We would never hear the end of it. My best hope is that there are blue passports and everything else stays the same, and brexiters can be persuaded they got what they voted for.
The collapse of trust in our politicians, our politics, our institutions and our post-war settlement is real and it is profound. It pervades every layer of British society: every class, every income level, every age group and every ideological leaning. The titled, the humble and the dogs in the street alike know that our democracy has gone wonky. The country is poorly run, by people who give the impression they are largely motivated by the prospect of personal advancement and the next opportunity to slip the dagger between one another’s ribs, by careerists who take a short-term view of big issues that properly require long-term responses, by parties that in the 21st century are outdated, unworkable coalitions of people who often have more in common with those who are nominally their opponents.
Well quite. However this is the democracy and sovereignty brexiters apparently yearned and voted for, whilst viewing the perfectly decent EU democracy as the big bad wolf.
Obviously everyone demands that our political class improve, as they should do, but to state that the EU is ‘perfectly decent’ when it is accepted by citizens of all EU countries that much improvement and change is required, is, in my opinion, ludicrous.
Just because you declare quite broadly that it is accepted by EU citizens everywhere (hard to back that assertion up with evidence I would imagine) it is possible to accept what you say and still hold the EU to be a perfectly decent democracy. One feature of any decent democracy is that people are free to criticise, and personally at the moment I believe the EU version of democracy to be superior to the UK one, and your post above regarding politics in the UK somewhat backs that up.
How is the EU a more decent democracy than the UK? We are also free to criticise our government. When did that change according to you?
The political class in many EU countries is no better than in the UK. Just read the media in Europe on a regular basis and you will see that. Disillusionment is all over, hence the rise of populist and far right organisations.
Are you really saying that all countries are not seeking improvement from the EU? Even the likes of Merkel and Macron are saying it, not only the UK.
We are far from perfect, but neither is the EU and its component countries.
A coup!d of things that I think makes the EU democracy better is proportional representation and no House of Lords. I am aware there are alternative positions. At no time did I say that people are not at liberty to criticise the UK government, I ought to know I do it all the time.
Ok, that’s your opinion.
I firmly do not believe that the EU, or any countries within it, have a ‘more decent’ democracy than the UK.
Nor do I believe EU democracy is ‘perfectly decent’, an opinion for which I am not alone as I previously explained.
I’d also like to add that whether or not we are in the EU, that is not going to change ‘proportional representation or the House of Lords’.
It might if an EU superstate happens and we were in the EU.
But every remainer keeps telling me that will never happen.
Not me. It might be on the table one day, and it is something I might vote for if I were in a position to do so.
And, as I have said frequently, you would be right to do so because, ultimately, that is what the EU needs.
But it is absolutely not for me.
Well those with your view (I suppose) won the referendum so for that at least you can gain some comfort. I lost and need to get over it but reserve the (democratic?) right to be very critical about what followed the vote.
And so you should ... which is your democratic right in the UK
The collapse of trust in our politicians, our politics, our institutions and our post-war settlement is real and it is profound. It pervades every layer of British society: every class, every income level, every age group and every ideological leaning. The titled, the humble and the dogs in the street alike know that our democracy has gone wonky. The country is poorly run, by people who give the impression they are largely motivated by the prospect of personal advancement and the next opportunity to slip the dagger between one another’s ribs, by careerists who take a short-term view of big issues that properly require long-term responses, by parties that in the 21st century are outdated, unworkable coalitions of people who often have more in common with those who are nominally their opponents.
Well quite. However this is the democracy and sovereignty brexiters apparently yearned and voted for, whilst viewing the perfectly decent EU democracy as the big bad wolf.
Obviously everyone demands that our political class improve, as they should do, but to state that the EU is ‘perfectly decent’ when it is accepted by citizens of all EU countries that much improvement and change is required, is, in my opinion, ludicrous.
Just because you declare quite broadly that it is accepted by EU citizens everywhere (hard to back that assertion up with evidence I would imagine) it is possible to accept what you say and still hold the EU to be a perfectly decent democracy. One feature of any decent democracy is that people are free to criticise, and personally at the moment I believe the EU version of democracy to be superior to the UK one, and your post above regarding politics in the UK somewhat backs that up.
How is the EU a more decent democracy than the UK? We are also free to criticise our government. When did that change according to you?
The political class in many EU countries is no better than in the UK. Just read the media in Europe on a regular basis and you will see that. Disillusionment is all over, hence the rise of populist and far right organisations.
Are you really saying that all countries are not seeking improvement from the EU? Even the likes of Merkel and Macron are saying it, not only the UK.
We are far from perfect, but neither is the EU and its component countries.
A coup!d of things that I think makes the EU democracy better is proportional representation and no House of Lords. I am aware there are alternative positions. At no time did I say that people are not at liberty to criticise the UK government, I ought to know I do it all the time.
Ok, that’s your opinion.
I firmly do not believe that the EU, or any countries within it, have a ‘more decent’ democracy than the UK.
Nor do I believe EU democracy is ‘perfectly decent’, an opinion for which I am not alone as I previously explained.
I’d also like to add that whether or not we are in the EU, that is not going to change ‘proportional representation or the House of Lords’.
It might if an EU superstate happens and we were in the EU.
But every remainer keeps telling me that will never happen.
Not me. It might be on the table one day, and it is something I might vote for if I were in a position to do so.
And, as I have said frequently, you would be right to do so because, ultimately, that is what the EU needs.
But it is absolutely not for me.
Well those with your view (I suppose) won the referendum so for that at least you can gain some comfort. I lost and need to get over it but reserve the (democratic?) right to be very critical about what followed the vote.
You keep saying you lost so you have to get over it. Thankfully, most Remain voters don't share that view. The debate has continued to rage on this forum over the last 18 months, as indeed it has across the country, and Project Fear has been shown, without a shadow of doubt, to be Project Truth. Cold hard facts are proving day after day what a moronic, extravagantly expensive and impossible project Brexit is. An expense the country can ill afford. And all because the looney right wing element of the Tory party, funded by the dark money of the Brexit elites, never accepted and never got over the original referendum 40 years ago. I believe a very significant number of Remain voters will never accept Brexit and will spend the next 40 years, if it takes that long, trying reverse or stop it.
The brexit vote can never be reversed. We would never hear the end of it. My best hope is that there are blue passports and everything else stays the same, and brexiters can be persuaded they got what they voted for.
It most certainly can be reversed. The question is whether or not the remain movement can guide it in that direction. Article 50 can, apparently, be reversed.
I hope it goes in the direction I have outlined but, if not, I would prefer ‘reversal’ rather than a watered down Brexit which benefits nobody.
The collapse of trust in our politicians, our politics, our institutions and our post-war settlement is real and it is profound. It pervades every layer of British society: every class, every income level, every age group and every ideological leaning. The titled, the humble and the dogs in the street alike know that our democracy has gone wonky. The country is poorly run, by people who give the impression they are largely motivated by the prospect of personal advancement and the next opportunity to slip the dagger between one another’s ribs, by careerists who take a short-term view of big issues that properly require long-term responses, by parties that in the 21st century are outdated, unworkable coalitions of people who often have more in common with those who are nominally their opponents.
Well quite. However this is the democracy and sovereignty brexiters apparently yearned and voted for, whilst viewing the perfectly decent EU democracy as the big bad wolf.
Obviously everyone demands that our political class improve, as they should do, but to state that the EU is ‘perfectly decent’ when it is accepted by citizens of all EU countries that much improvement and change is required, is, in my opinion, ludicrous.
Just because you declare quite broadly that it is accepted by EU citizens everywhere (hard to back that assertion up with evidence I would imagine) it is possible to accept what you say and still hold the EU to be a perfectly decent democracy. One feature of any decent democracy is that people are free to criticise, and personally at the moment I believe the EU version of democracy to be superior to the UK one, and your post above regarding politics in the UK somewhat backs that up.
How is the EU a more decent democracy than the UK? We are also free to criticise our government. When did that change according to you?
The political class in many EU countries is no better than in the UK. Just read the media in Europe on a regular basis and you will see that. Disillusionment is all over, hence the rise of populist and far right organisations.
Are you really saying that all countries are not seeking improvement from the EU? Even the likes of Merkel and Macron are saying it, not only the UK.
We are far from perfect, but neither is the EU and its component countries.
A coup!d of things that I think makes the EU democracy better is proportional representation and no House of Lords. I am aware there are alternative positions. At no time did I say that people are not at liberty to criticise the UK government, I ought to know I do it all the time.
Ok, that’s your opinion.
I firmly do not believe that the EU, or any countries within it, have a ‘more decent’ democracy than the UK.
Nor do I believe EU democracy is ‘perfectly decent’, an opinion for which I am not alone as I previously explained.
I’d also like to add that whether or not we are in the EU, that is not going to change ‘proportional representation or the House of Lords’.
It might if an EU superstate happens and we were in the EU.
But every remainer keeps telling me that will never happen.
Not me. It might be on the table one day, and it is something I might vote for if I were in a position to do so.
And, as I have said frequently, you would be right to do so because, ultimately, that is what the EU needs.
But it is absolutely not for me.
Well those with your view (I suppose) won the referendum so for that at least you can gain some comfort. I lost and need to get over it but reserve the (democratic?) right to be very critical about what followed the vote.
You keep saying you lost so you have to get over it. Thankfully, most Remain voters don't share that view. The debate has continued to rage on this forum over the last 18 months, as indeed it has across the country, and Project Fear has been shown, without a shadow of doubt, to be Project Truth. Cold hard facts are proving day after day what a moronic, extravagantly expensive and impossible project Brexit is. An expense the country can ill afford. And all because the looney right wing element of the Tory party, funded by the dark money of the Brexit elites, never accepted and never got over the original referendum 40 years ago. I believe a very significant number of Remain voters will never accept Brexit and will spend the next 40 years, if it takes that long, trying reverse or stop it.
The brexit vote can never be reversed. We would never hear the end of it. My best hope is that there are blue passports and everything else stays the same, and brexiters can be persuaded they got what they voted for.
If the original referendum can be reversed why can't this one be reversed?
Well OK it can be reversed. My thing is that we would never hear the end of it. Right now I am in the position to ensure brexiters never hear the end of it instead.
Well OK it can be reversed. My thing is that we would never hear the end of it. Right now I am in the position to ensure brexiters never hear the end of it instead.
So if it was reversed, apparently you would never hear the end of it.
And if it stays, you will make sure Brexiters never hear the end of it.
Sorry, but I do not really see your point. All it means is that people, including you, support a viewpoint which we discuss.
Our democracy allows you to do that.
So what? Much better than being silent and acquiescent.
No politician of any flavour is going to support reversing the referendum result. The aim now is to prove to enough voters that the Brexit we will have will make them worse off and not deliver what they believed they voted for. Negotiate what deal we can and put that back to the people.
No politician of any flavour is going to support reversing the referendum result. The aim now is to prove to enough voters that the Brexit we will have will make them worse off and not deliver what they believed they voted for. Negotiate what deal we can and put that back to the people.
Agreed, not today. But over the coming months, depending on progress or lack of, the issue of ‘reversal’ will be publicly discussed.
Well OK it can be reversed. My thing is that we would never hear the end of it. Right now I am in the position to ensure brexiters never hear the end of it instead.
So if it was reversed, apparently you would never hear the end of it.
And if it stays, you will make sure Brexiters never hear the end of it.
Sorry, but I do not really see your point. All it means is that people, including you, support a viewpoint which we discuss.
So what? Much better than being silent and acquiescent.
I am far from silent. I suppose what I want is for about 10 million brexit voters to say 'I was clearly wrong/misled/hasty or whatever' and engineer a reversal process that sits powerfully over the country as the brexit vote does now.
Well OK it can be reversed. My thing is that we would never hear the end of it. Right now I am in the position to ensure brexiters never hear the end of it instead.
So if it was reversed, apparently you would never hear the end of it.
And if it stays, you will make sure Brexiters never hear the end of it.
Sorry, but I do not really see your point. All it means is that people, including you, support a viewpoint which we discuss.
So what? Much better than being silent and acquiescent.
I am far from silent. I suppose what I want is for about 10 million brexit voters to say 'I was clearly wrong/misled/hasty or whatever' and engineer a reversal process that sits powerfully over the country as the brexit vote does now.
The fact we can have this discussion ... and that it is ongoing throughout the entire country ... and that no one would even think of stopping us ... demonstrates that we are in a democracy.
In your mind, not as perfect as the EU democracy, but it still works, doesn’t it
Yeah. Years more of this. I foresee a long period of some kind of action by brexiters and reaction by remainers. I also believe the onus is 100% on the brexit voters in the UK to sort it out, not the Irish, not the EU, not the remainers. Clearly a person like me will have to suffer the consequences of brexit, but I am one of the lucky ones with dual nationality
Incidentally, why are you lucky because of dual nationality? Intending to move to Ireland any time soon?
Comments
I firmly do not believe that the EU, or any countries within it, have a ‘more decent’ democracy than the UK.
Nor do I believe EU democracy is ‘perfectly decent’, an opinion for which I am not alone as I previously explained.
I’m afraid that if you dabble in selling arms to earn billions of pounds you have to accept others will do likewise. Sooner or later it will come back to hurt you although those raking in the money will not give a tinkers cuss about that.
But it is absolutely not for me.
I lost and need to get over it but reserve the (democratic?) right to be very critical about what followed the vote.
My best hope is that there are blue passports and everything else stays the same, and brexiters can be persuaded they got what they voted for.
I hope it goes in the direction I have outlined but, if not, I would prefer ‘reversal’ rather than a watered down Brexit which benefits nobody.
My thing is that we would never hear the end of it.
Right now I am in the position to ensure brexiters never hear the end of it instead.
And if it stays, you will make sure Brexiters never hear the end of it.
Sorry, but I do not really see your point. All it means is that people, including you, support a viewpoint which we discuss.
Our democracy allows you to do that.
So what? Much better than being silent and acquiescent.
I suppose what I want is for about 10 million brexit voters to say 'I was clearly wrong/misled/hasty or whatever' and engineer a reversal process that sits powerfully over the country as the brexit vote does now.
In your mind, not as perfect as the EU democracy, but it still works, doesn’t it