Because we are close to another incarnation of my/your/our Charlton Athletic the passions are rising in the way forward. There is no fits all solution for our future. The 5 year plan should be to reunite the fan base and establish a championship side with 18 k average crowds. Then and only then should we argue about how to fill the stadium. Another 5 year plan and push for greater football success. Enjoy the ride.
Robinson said that he, Gallen and Murray I believe, all convened at the o2 on Wednesday, so it’s FACT we are moving to the peninsula, irrefutable and glaringly obvious.
I heard something yesterday, but then again I was walking through Berkeley Square.
Wibble
Was it a Nightingale...?
Unlikely, they are summer visitors from Africa (so not the sort of bird Wet Spam would be interested in obviously) and don't pitch up in the UK until April. In addition, they have unassuming brownish legs and beaks and don't have a head tuft. In that regard, much like a Robin. But not like Charlton's grotesque mashup mascot.
According to a Belgian poster on another site, Roland mentioned on a minor chat show that he was busy selling all of his football clubs.
I'll never complain about the quality of the guests on Graham Norton or Jonathan Ross again.
Come on CE, you cant just come on and say that and then disappear ! - makes it look like its a load of bollox.
I answered you, take a look.
NB I don't know why you are going on about the Peninsula, because unless I'm mistaken, there is no longer the land available to build a medium/large stadium. I can't remember the detail, but that boat sailed some years ago IIRC.
Maybe its gone beyond that now CE, in as much as i can see how blinkered,insular and small-minded some/most fans are - its almost as if The Valley is a shrine, and is ours forever more. I cant stand it that people cant see progress, to me, its so obvious, its on our doorstep, it can only be good for the club and the fans and yet it seems most fans want to stick to their old routine , their old worship place, and are just not prepared to look at the 'bigger picture', and shout down anybody who thinks differently, - it drives me crazy tbh. To me its so obviously a move that could move us up to a new level - an opportunity to have sponsors like Citibank,HSBC,State Street instead of Betdag,Titan lifts (sorry ) and Andrews air conditioning - its just plainly obvious ffs !!!!!!!!! its an opportunity that i bet someone like Berylson is watching closely, especially in their situation with their ground.
I really, really dont get it.
Agreed, I don't think you do get it at all. I'll have one last attempt.
THERE IS NO LONGER A PENINSULA OPTION (unless I am mistaken).
ffs.
'UNLESS I AM MISTAKEN' - means you dont FUCKING KNOW.
Are you drunk ?
I'm 99% certain I've read more than once that the land that was available no longer is.
I've read documents saying that the option a few years back was limited to a stadium with a maximum capacity @10,000.
This news is so old I can't be 100% sure as I have a poor memory and I don't like to say I'm 100% certain if I'm not.
Have you read all the posts???
This has morphed into a general discussion about the dinosaur attitude of Charlton fans generally. We all know/understand/appreciate/are aware that the Peninsular option *might* and i stress *might* not be available - but my gripe is with the negative attitude of fans towards any such move should it arise. Maybe if you had taken the time to read it fully you might have been able to come on here with a more erudite message rather than blurting out your big-i-am capital letters or accuse people of being drunk !
If fans are against the move @The_President , then that's just the way it is. Move on. Try and work out why the gates are down. Maybe it's not just to do with the location? They were big before, there's no reason they can't be substantially increased again. You need to offer a decent product, a club and a team to believe in, and trams [oops, I've just blown it....]
@JamesSeed - you've given me an open goal .... trams it is, then. Charlton was the centre of the London tram scene. The Central Repair Depot alongside the railway line to Angerstein Wharf was the main maintenance facility for the entire London Transport system. Access was via a short side turning called Felltram Way, which is still there today. As the trams were withdrawn from service they were scrapped in Penhall Road, near the Barrier. For several years after the system finally closed on 5 July 1952 the CRD remained open for the large fleet of trolleybuses, but they too went the way of the trams, being withdrawn over the period 1959-1962. The tram routes which served Charlton were the 36, 38, and 40. Another route in the vicinity was the 58 to Blackwall Tunnel via Blackwall Lane. Lastly, not a tram but nonetheless a fixed route, was the guided busway planned to shuttle between the Millenium Dome and Charlton Station during the Millenium Exhibition, but the system never worked and the rubber-tyred vehicles only operated as conventional buses during their brief period of service.
You could get The Valley to 40,000 no sweat. We'd have to become pretty successful to warrant crowds above that.
I stand corrected, but I believe the board under Murray looked into the redevelopment but were sceptical that our gates would increase sufficently to justify it.
There was an obvious porky in Mrs F post ?? She would never run out of wine at her mansion because she has young men working a night shift and "treading the grapes" down at Fanny's cellar. (This is not a euphemism)
To be fair @The_President does raise some valid arguments about the Club moving away from the Valley.
As a Luddite dinosaur, I don’t think he does in any way shape or form. Clubs move grounds primarily for two reasons 1. they have outgrown over a consistent period their existing one or 2. their old ground has fallen into such disrepair or in need of modernisation that it would cost too much money to address without further benefits.
Quite simply The Valley IS Charlton Athletic.
In our history of bland, non-achievement the successful fight the supporters went through to secure its return is the one shining light that provides our identity and makes us stand out as a club. It is adequately modernised and sustainable for the next 20 years at least, and currently we are only a third filling it.
Even after a period of relative success we can see how flakey our newly gained support was ten years down the line. We are not West Ham with a 250k plus historic support base to tap into and we cannot currently sell more than 4 executive boxes.
Pres said he would happily up sticks, move ground, change our name, our badge and our colours etc if it looked like delivering more football success. He’s probably not alone in that, but that to me is Wimbledon / MK Dons and i have to question why anyone is so uncomfortable or wishing to change what is fundamentally our own skin, our identity, and as someone raised yesterday, why you have been seeking to drive and lead protests when the heart of those protests is very much based on the threat and disregard to the club’s identity. With the greatest respect, I just don’t get it.
This club still it has its base and core at heart and needs rebuilding, and I’m sure it will with realism that there is probably a ceiling to potential achievement over the medium term.
What it doesn’t need is ground moves for non-football reasons, and it never ever ever needs to change its name.
And if that makes me a Luddite dinosaur then I’m very proud to be one.
To be fair @The_President does raise some valid arguments about the Club moving away from the Valley.
As a Luddite dinosaur, I don’t think he does in any way shape or form. Clubs move grounds primarily for two reasons 1. they have outgrown over a consistent period their existing one or 2. their old ground has fallen into such disrepair or in need of modernisation that it would cost too much money to address without further benefits.
Quite simply The Valley IS Charlton Athletic.
In our history of bland, non-achievement the successful fight the supporters went through to secure its return is the one shining light that provides our identity and makes us stand out as a club. It is adequately modernised and sustainable for the next 20 years at least, and currently we are only a third filling it.
Even after a period of relative success we can see how flakey our newly gained support was ten years down the line. We are not West Ham with a 250k plus historic support base to tap into and we cannot currently sell more than 4 executive boxes.
Pres said he would happily up sticks, move ground, change our name, our badge and our colours etc if it looked like delivering more football success. He’s probably not alone in that, but that to me is Wimbledon / MK Dons and i have to question why anyone is so uncomfortable or wishing to change what is fundamentally our own skin, our identity, and as someone raised yesterday, why you have been seeking to drive and lead protests when the heart of those protests is very much based on the threat and disregard to the club’s identity. With the greatest respect, I just don’t get it.
This club still it has its base and core at heart and needs rebuilding, and I’m sure it will with realism that there is probably a ceiling to potential achievement over the medium term.
What it doesn’t need is ground moves for non-football reasons, and it never ever ever needs to change its name.
And if that makes me a Luddite dinosaur then I’m very proud to be one.
Got that off my chest :-)
Can't argue with any of that.
However, I felt the point that @The_President was making if that we want to successfully compete at the very highest level of football then it's unlikely that The Valley would be able to support that without massive re-development and the subsequent investment in local infra structure to support 40K fans turning up three times a month.
Thankfully, the likes of Red Bull won't be our new owners and therefore the whole argument is hypothetical.
Massive redevelopment and investment in local infrastructure is also required at Morden Wharf. The spivs identified a timescale of eight or nine years in 2012-13 (in part because of planning and land ownership issues) in a process that hasn’t even started - nobody is moving to the peninsula in the foreseeable future, whether a move has any merits or not.
The spiv ownership collapsed in part because it was not clear that a peninsula scheme with a stadium could ever be delivered. Hard nosed major investors looked at it and walked away because they were not persuaded it could be stacked up.
I'm sure there are more sites that are viable rather than just the peninsula though.
Yes, we could move into Wembley, become RB London and have big crowds and trophies.
That would be OK for the President.
It wouldn't be ok for me.
There just isn't a business case for moving to a new stadium in SE London now or in the near future.
The resale value of the valley land wouldn't cover the costs of a new ground and the increased income potential could more easily be achieved by rebuilding the Valley.
I'm not saying we can never leave but the new has to be a significant benefit above the current to make it viable or justifiable.
More importantly, it just ain't happening.
Let's cross that bridge when and if we ever get to it.
We haven't even got rid of Duchatelet yet.
Keep your eye on the prize.
Thank you Sir Henry Irvine. I now have hotel California running around my brain.
Apologies if this has been covered before, but could the Jimmy Seed Stand be rebuilt as a double decker (were we to be in the position of needing increased capacity)? I imaging there would be planning permission difficulties, although I seem to remember that it was something that had been proposed before relegation from the PL?
My first home was a post war pre fab on Shooters Hill just above where the now closed police station is, and one of my very earliest memories was going on a trolleybus, presumably around Woolwich or somewhere. In the days of bus conductors they had these ticket machines which I thought were awesome. You could fish in the bin for, or blag ticket rolls to throw at the football, but they were dwarfed by the nicked from school Bronco bog rolls that were thrown.
Surely most of the income generated in the Premier league is in the tv deals? Unless you are competing at the very top level (man u, man c etc) then the size of the stadium doesn't matter. So at no point in the foreseeable future do we need to move. You could also argue that West Ham's recent move has ripped the soul out of that club. That said I wouldn't want an owner who would look to settle for things as they are League 1 / lower end Championship club because financially that isn't sustainable.
Apologies if this has been covered before, but could the Jimmy Seed Stand be rebuilt as a double decker (were we to be in the position of needing increased capacity)? I imaging there would be planning permission difficulties, although I seem to remember that it was something that had been proposed before relegation from the PL?
Yes there were plans to eventually extend to 40,000.
Apologies if this has been covered before, but could the Jimmy Seed Stand be rebuilt as a double decker (were we to be in the position of needing increased capacity)? I imaging there would be planning permission difficulties, although I seem to remember that it was something that had been proposed before relegation from the PL?
Yes there were plans to eventually extend to 40,000.
Apologies if this has been covered before, but could the Jimmy Seed Stand be rebuilt as a double decker (were we to be in the position of needing increased capacity)? I imaging there would be planning permission difficulties, although I seem to remember that it was something that had been proposed before relegation from the PL?
Yes there were plans to eventually extend to 40,000.
Apologies if this has been covered before, but could the Jimmy Seed Stand be rebuilt as a double decker (were we to be in the position of needing increased capacity)? I imaging there would be planning permission difficulties, although I seem to remember that it was something that had been proposed before relegation from the PL?
Yes there were plans to eventually extend to 40,000.
Apologies if this has been covered before, but could the Jimmy Seed Stand be rebuilt as a double decker (were we to be in the position of needing increased capacity)? I imaging there would be planning permission difficulties, although I seem to remember that it was something that had been proposed before relegation from the PL?
Yes there were plans to eventually extend to 40,000.
Apologies if this has been covered before, but could the Jimmy Seed Stand be rebuilt as a double decker (were we to be in the position of needing increased capacity)? I imaging there would be planning permission difficulties, although I seem to remember that it was something that had been proposed before relegation from the PL?
Yes there were plans to eventually extend to 40,000.
Apologies if this has been covered before, but could the Jimmy Seed Stand be rebuilt as a double decker (were we to be in the position of needing increased capacity)? I imaging there would be planning permission difficulties, although I seem to remember that it was something that had been proposed before relegation from the PL?
Yes there were plans to eventually extend to 40,000.
Apologies if this has been covered before, but could the Jimmy Seed Stand be rebuilt as a double decker (were we to be in the position of needing increased capacity)? I imaging there would be planning permission difficulties, although I seem to remember that it was something that had been proposed before relegation from the PL?
Yes there were plans to eventually extend to 40,000.
Apologies if this has been covered before, but could the Jimmy Seed Stand be rebuilt as a double decker (were we to be in the position of needing increased capacity)? I imaging there would be planning permission difficulties, although I seem to remember that it was something that had been proposed before relegation from the PL?
Yes there were plans to eventually extend to 40,000.
Apologies if this has been covered before, but could the Jimmy Seed Stand be rebuilt as a double decker (were we to be in the position of needing increased capacity)? I imaging there would be planning permission difficulties, although I seem to remember that it was something that had been proposed before relegation from the PL?
Yes there were plans to eventually extend to 40,000.
Apologies if this has been covered before, but could the Jimmy Seed Stand be rebuilt as a double decker (were we to be in the position of needing increased capacity)? I imaging there would be planning permission difficulties, although I seem to remember that it was something that had been proposed before relegation from the PL?
Yes there were plans to eventually extend to 40,000.
Didn't we have plans for a bowling alley (Got knocked back?) and Bartrams as it is now was open daytimes and evenings but didn't get the trade. Although I used it, when I lived in Charlton it was nearly always empty. Which is why imo after seeing what the owner had done in St Truiden is was never going to work.
Supporters and numbers that’s my game ! We’d have to be knocking on the champions league door every season forever to sustain crowds above 30k imo We just don’t have it , the floaters will float in initially and float back out as it all becomes a bit boring and samey to those not dyed in the wool . Our home numbers dwindled towards the last few seasons of Prem football yes it wasn’t the most riveting . I believe no matter how successful we are and I’m up for someone coming in and buying Messi , Ronaldo , Kermorgant installing SCP etc and winning the Prem , Champions League etc and we’d only need a decent facelift of The Valley to get the capacity up a few thousand . 40k would not be needed unless we wanted 10k of away fans to fill up the ground . More importantly would this lead to a consistent decent away following , probably not .
I’m reluctant to get dragged into this bollocks but I’m not so sure.
Ok here goes. Should it ever happen that a Charlton team gets back to the Premier League we already know that filling The Valley as is will not be a problem. Up the ante a bit to include a Charlton team consistently doing well over a number of years and the 27,000 becomes consolidated with local yoof aligning with us rather than with the other options. The fan base genuinely grows. Up the ante yet again to those mega rich owners who bring top four football with all that brings then it’s certain that The Valley capacity would no longer be adequate. In fact it would hinder the club. I’m sure some small capacity increase would be possible but we already know that would be very difficult and impossible for a bigger increase. I’m guessing that pulling down the current stadium and starting again would be the only option to push up the crowds to levels worth the effort and cost. I doubt that would be possible on the current site. You can also add to the mix the massive local increase in housing which would swell local interest and crowd potential for a successful premier league club.
Now I realise it’s all bollocks but I just want to say. Never say never. As Henry as already said we’ve reinvented ourselves before and we probably will need to again if we want to thrive and prosper.
Can the East Stand go any higher with those houses that have been built behind it?
I don't think it can, I remember it had to stay below garden level. Also remember having problem at ground level, hence the walkway in front of the stand.
Hasn’t Airman already told us previously that evacuation issues would now be a problem in doing very much with the east and Jimmy Seed stand because of the housing developments.
'One of Charlton's biggest crowd problems has always been transport. If gates had rocketed to 50,000 and 60,000 the local railway station would have had difficulty in coping. Football fans seem content to travel from the suburbs to London to watch Arsenal, Chelsea or Spurs, but it is a different matter to get them to leave the centre of London to come south of the Thames-particularly when the accommodation leaves much to be desired. Chelsea and Arsenal are fortunate to be blessed with nearby tube stations plus good bus services and a full supply of taxis. Charlton rely on scattered fans, some from the other side of the Thames which means crossing the Woolwich free ferry or coming under the Blackwall Tunnel. Other supporters come from the Kent suburbs and have difficult journeys unless they travel by cars. To bring them in large numbers from London or from deep in Kent, Charlton would need a winning team and better facilities. Although London was glad to see the back of those old bone-shakers we called trams, it was a bad day for Charlton attendances when they were finally done away with. The trams held more customers, of course, and could be turned round quickly with an efficient shuttle service to pick up more supporters. We lost a good friend when the bone-shakers were condemned. All these things helped to pull down the crowds, but it would be foolish to blame awkward journeys alone for the decline in gates. If the soccer public is given the right type of entertainment plus normal comforts they won't allow inconvenient transport to stand in the way. I thought it tragic last season when I noticed attendances had fallen below 17,000.'
Hasn’t Airman already told us previously that evacuation issues would now be a problem in doing very much with the east and Jimmy Seed stand because of the housing developments.
There’s now a construction methodology and evacuation issue with the east stand in particular - however the majority of the capacity potential is at the Jimmy Seed stand end. You would only get 3,000 extra from the east and the south-east corner even if it’s still acceptable in planning terms, which I doubt.
There is potential to create a new access via The Heights. It’s a major piece of engineering work and there are other issues, but still much cheaper than a new stadium.
Comments
@JamesSeed - you're very welcome!!
In the days of bus conductors they had these ticket machines which I thought were awesome. You could fish in the bin for, or blag ticket rolls to throw at the football, but they were dwarfed by the nicked from school Bronco bog rolls that were thrown.
You could also argue that West Ham's recent move has ripped the soul out of that club.
That said I wouldn't want an owner who would look to settle for things as they are League 1 / lower end Championship club because financially that isn't sustainable.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/articles/2008/03/06/greenwich_cafc_feature.shtml
Ok here goes. Should it ever happen that a Charlton team gets back to the Premier League we already know that filling The Valley as is will not be a problem. Up the ante a bit to include a Charlton team consistently doing well over a number of years and the 27,000 becomes consolidated with local yoof aligning with us rather than with the other options. The fan base genuinely grows. Up the ante yet again to those mega rich owners who bring top four football with all that brings then it’s certain that The Valley capacity would no longer be adequate. In fact it would hinder the club. I’m sure some small capacity increase would be possible but we already know that would be very difficult and impossible for a bigger increase. I’m guessing that pulling down the current stadium and starting again would be the only option to push up the crowds to levels worth the effort and cost. I doubt that would be possible on the current site. You can also add to the mix the massive local increase in housing which would swell local interest and crowd potential for a successful premier league club.
Now I realise it’s all bollocks but I just want to say. Never say never. As Henry as already said we’ve reinvented ourselves before and we probably will need to again if we want to thrive and prosper.
Stage one was to increase the east stand to match the level of the West.
Stage two was to fill in the corners of the Jimmy seed stand.
And finally stage three was to put a second tier on the Jimmy seed stand taking our capacity to just over 40k.
Those were the days when we had ambitions,hopefully they will return.
it can, I remember it had to stay below garden level. Also remember having problem at ground level, hence the walkway in front of the stand.
Charlton rely on scattered fans, some from the other side of the Thames which means crossing the Woolwich free ferry or coming under the Blackwall Tunnel. Other supporters come from the Kent suburbs and have difficult journeys unless they travel by cars. To bring them in large numbers from London or from deep in Kent, Charlton would need a winning team and better facilities.
Although London was glad to see the back of those old bone-shakers we called trams, it was a bad day for Charlton attendances when they were finally done away with. The trams held more customers, of course, and could be turned round quickly with an efficient shuttle service to pick up more supporters. We lost a good friend when the bone-shakers were condemned.
All these things helped to pull down the crowds, but it would be foolish to blame awkward journeys alone for the decline in gates. If the soccer public is given the right type of entertainment plus normal comforts they won't allow inconvenient transport to stand in the way. I thought it tragic last season when I noticed attendances had fallen below 17,000.'
Jimmy Seed in 1957
There is potential to create a new access via The Heights. It’s a major piece of engineering work and there are other issues, but still much cheaper than a new stadium.