If Roland sells the club, but keeps the ground, it's very difficult knowing what the best course of action is.
This is my greatest fear over any decision Duchatelet makes to sell. The thought of that vampire permanently leeching from Charlton's dismembered body is too awful to contemplate... but I wouldn't put it past him.
If we ever get back to The Premier League in my opinion we'd need to expand to 40,000 the only question would be could it still be done at The Valley or would it have to be at a new stadium?
27,000 was fine in our last Premier League stint but since then just about every other London Premier League team will have a ground even bigger than 40,000. As someone else said ticket money means nothing compared to TV revenue so why not push for 40,000 and offer cheap tickets to fill the ground?
Of course it all means nothing unless we get back to The Premier League and unless we can do so within 3-4 years we will soon find ourselves a long way behind all the other London teams maybe even Palace too if they sort themselves out a new stadium even they'd be looking for 40,000 and not impossible for them to have this in 3-4 years time if they stay afloat in The Premier League.
If 40,000 could potentially be done at The Valley then great, if not then I'm fine with a move to The Peninsula.
All the big London clubs are now sorted in terms of plans for bigger grounds.
Of the more local ones Palace will go more into Surrey. Millwall is a possibility, but in my opinion they are welcome to it. When they moved before it was claimed at the time that The New London Stadium would create a new type of supporter. It did not and the same would happen again. So they would play in a half empty stadium with the same issues they have now for a big game
If we ever get back to The Premier League in my opinion we'd need to expand to 40,000 the only question would be could it still be done at The Valley or would it have to be at a new stadium?
27,000 was fine in our last Premier League stint but since then just about every other London Premier League team will have a ground even bigger than 40,000. As someone else said ticket money means nothing compared to TV revenue so why not push for 40,000 and offer cheap tickets to fill the ground?
Of course it all means nothing unless we get back to The Premier League and unless we can do so within 3-4 years we will soon find ourselves a long way behind all the other London teams maybe even Palace too if they sort themselves out a new stadium even they'd be looking for 40,000 and not impossible for them to have this in 3-4 years time if they stay afloat in The Premier League.
If 40,000 could potentially be done at The Valley then great, if not then I'm fine with a move to The Peninsula.
At the moment, and more so given the amounts of money even relegated Premier League sides have to play with, the Premier League (or the top division) is further away than it's been since the 1970s. The last thing we need is a spanking new stadium, large overheads and 5000 people watching us play League 1/2 football. We're already so far off the pace - in terms of ability and finances - that I fear the Premier League is a pipe dream. Under this owner, so is the Championship.
I have always been firmly of the opinion that a PL club needs a 40k plus capacity to survive and challenge year in year out but the new money numbers from TV have changed that. A small ground, preferably with a roof, that can generate a lot of noise is the way forward.
Cant you all see its not all about attendances - its about pushing on to the next level. Instead of , as i keep saying, playing the likes of Aldershot and Accrington every week with a dwindling attendance of 'Valley diehard dinosaur sympathisers' and selling our best players every year, we could be playing the likes of Leicester and Liverpool in a modern stadium,with modern transport links in an area which is regarded as the Financial capital of the world- with new,younger, more international fanbase ! And maybe, you never know, dipping into Europe occasionally.
Yes, we could always (somehow) get into the Prem in our current form, but, we all know it isn't gonna happen for the next 10 years at least , maybe not in my lifetime again - and one of the reasons for that is that clubs like Leicester,Stoke,Bournemouth,Hull,Palace HAVE moved onto the next level - they have mostly built new stadiums, improved their attendances, improved their sponsorships,improved their income - all by trying to get to the next level and not sat still and glorified on the past thinking everything's alright.
Yes, I'm proud like everyone else of what was achieved in returning to The valley, i'm proud of our heritage but you cant live on past glories - you HAVE to move forward. Else we WILL remain Lidl Ol Charlton, watched by an ever-decreasing number of ageing fans crying out for the Valley Party to be re-formed, sliding inexorably towards oblivion (unless RD does it first,of course).
A new stadium doesn't need to be bigger than the one we've got - a state-of-the-art stadium with say 20k initial capacity on the Peninsula (built with the potential to easily add additional capacity in due course) could serve us very well.
Cant you all see its not all about attendances - its about pushing on to the next level. Instead of , as i keep saying, playing the likes of Aldershot and Accrington every week with a dwindling attendance of 'Valley diehard dinosaur sympathisers' and selling our best players every year, we could be playing the likes of Leicester and Liverpool in a modern stadium,with modern transport links in an area which is regarded as the Financial capital of the world- with new,younger, more international fanbase ! And maybe, you never know, dipping into Europe occasionally.
Yes, we could always (somehow) get into the Prem in our current form, but, we all know it isn't gonna happen for the next 10 years at least , maybe not in my lifetime again - and one of the reasons for that is that clubs like Leicester,Stoke,Bournemouth,Hull,Palace HAVE moved onto the next level - they have mostly built new stadiums, improved their attendances, improved their sponsorships,improved their income - all by trying to get to the next level and not sat still and glorified on the past thinking everything's alright.
Yes, I'm proud like everyone else of what was achieved in returning to The valley, i'm proud of our heritage but you cant live on past glories - you HAVE to move forward. Else we WILL remain Lidl Ol Charlton, watched by an ever-decreasing number of ageing fans crying out for the Valley Party to be re-formed, sliding inexorably towards oblivion (unless RD does it first,of course).
I can empathise with the 'no under all circumstances' viewpoint, but if it's still within a reasonable distance of the Valley, which I think the Greenwich Peninsula would be, I'd be open minded. I'm not wed to the Valley if the proposal was a sensible one. I'd certainly be willing to consider it.
some have said I can be a bit old fashioned but I would want them to demolish all three home ends and build it as an exact copy of the Valley, say, circa 1953 keep the jimmy seed stand as it is.
as I'll be on the east terrace I wouldn't oppose them building a retractable roof over it for the winter months.
Cant you all see its not all about attendances - its about pushing on to the next level. Instead of , as i keep saying, playing the likes of Aldershot and Accrington every week with a dwindling attendance of 'Valley diehard dinosaur sympathisers' and selling our best players every year, we could be playing the likes of Leicester and Liverpool in a modern stadium,with modern transport links in an area which is regarded as the Financial capital of the world- with new,younger, more international fanbase ! And maybe, you never know, dipping into Europe occasionally.
Yes, we could always (somehow) get into the Prem in our current form, but, we all know it isn't gonna happen for the next 10 years at least , maybe not in my lifetime again - and one of the reasons for that is that clubs like Leicester,Stoke,Bournemouth,Hull,Palace HAVE moved onto the next level - they have mostly built new stadiums, improved their attendances, improved their sponsorships,improved their income - all by trying to get to the next level and not sat still and glorified on the past thinking everything's alright.
Yes, I'm proud like everyone else of what was achieved in returning to The valley, i'm proud of our heritage but you cant live on past glories - you HAVE to move forward. Else we WILL remain Lidl Ol Charlton, watched by an ever-decreasing number of ageing fans crying out for the Valley Party to be re-formed, sliding inexorably towards oblivion (unless RD does it first,of course).
But if safe standing comes in we could potentially revert to a capacity of 75,031 so no need to move
Using West Ham as a proxy, in 2014/15 they generated £121m of turnover of which only £20m was from match receipts and related football activities (and that was before the latest TV deal).
I would thus continue to argue that a modern stadium with 20k capacity would be ideal as we would rarely fill it outside of the Premiership (but at least it would be more full than The Valley), and in the Premiership there would be scarcity which would encourage more occasional fans to purchase season tickets.
Although The Valley is in much better shape than many other clubs who have moved in the past decade or two (eg. Reading, Bolton, Leicester etc.), it is still way behind acceptable modern standards - the North Lower and South stands have seats bolted onto a former terrace (with poor leg room/sightlines), whilst the East Stand and Upper West have no indoor concourse.
I can empathise with the 'no under all circumstances' viewpoint, but if it's still within a reason distance of the Valley, which I think the Greenwich Peninsula would be, I'd be open minded. I'm not wed to the Valley if the proposal was a sensible one. I'd certainly be willing to consider it.
If you go into Asda in North Greenwich, it has a sign which says ' Welcome to Asda Charlton ' - that's how bleedin close it is !
I can empathise with the 'no under all circumstances' viewpoint, but if it's still within a reason distance of the Valley, which I think the Greenwich Peninsula would be, I'd be open minded. I'm not wed to the Valley if the proposal was a sensible one. I'd certainly be willing to consider it.
If you go into Asda in North Greenwich, it has a sign which says ' Welcome to Asda Charlton ' - that's how bleedin close it is !
That's because it's Asda.
If it was a Waitrose it would say 'Greenwich' or 'North North Blackheath'
I love the Valley like anyone else, and have been going down there for 40 years. But a move to Greenwich peninsula (Morden wharf) with a modern 30/35k stadium like Brighton's with bars and restaurants etc access from North Greenwich underground and by the river may be a positive thing.
I love the Valley like anyone else, and have been going down there for 40 years. But a move to Greenwich peninsula (Morden wharf) with a modern 30/35k stadium like Brighton's with bars and restaurants etc access from North Greenwich underground and by the river may be a positive thing.
Brighton has bars and restaurants because the stadium is in the middle of bloody no-where. The Valley is bang in the middle of a built up part of London with all of that stuff a stones throw away.
Cant you all see its not all about attendances - its about pushing on to the next level. Instead of , as i keep saying, playing the likes of Aldershot and Accrington every week with a dwindling attendance of 'Valley diehard dinosaur sympathisers' and selling our best players every year, we could be playing the likes of Leicester and Liverpool in a modern stadium,with modern transport links in an area which is regarded as the Financial capital of the world- with new,younger, more international fanbase ! And maybe, you never know, dipping into Europe occasionally.
Yes, we could always (somehow) get into the Prem in our current form, but, we all know it isn't gonna happen for the next 10 years at least , maybe not in my lifetime again - and one of the reasons for that is that clubs like Leicester,Stoke,Bournemouth,Hull,Palace HAVE moved onto the next level - they have mostly built new stadiums, improved their attendances, improved their sponsorships,improved their income - all by trying to get to the next level and not sat still and glorified on the past thinking everything's alright.
Yes, I'm proud like everyone else of what was achieved in returning to The valley, i'm proud of our heritage but you cant live on past glories - you HAVE to move forward. Else we WILL remain Lidl Ol Charlton, watched by an ever-decreasing number of ageing fans crying out for the Valley Party to be re-formed, sliding inexorably towards oblivion (unless RD does it first,of course).
Well said.
Of course the Valley is special to us, not least because we had it taken away from us, had to play miles away, and had to fight to get it back.
But a planned move on our terms and at our instigation to a brand new purpose built stadium with commercial revenue generating facilities, that's walking distance away, is entirely different in my mind.
The Valley is lovely but tatty and needs a major refurbishment .. really time to move out, sell the land for housing and invest in a new home .. a move to a brand spanking new all purpose stadium is just what CAFC needs .. BUT .. with all the London premier clubs moving into new 55/60,000+ seated stadia, will even a 35,000 seater suit our long term needs ? .. I digress, but will we ever again hope to compete with the mega rich big boys ?
No! But I probably thought that in about 1994 as well.
The real issue here is about money. That's all football is these days. If by some miracle Charlton were to ever get back into the Premier League then the 27.111k capacity and The Valley facilities would ensure that at some point we would fall back again. In It's current form and capacity The Valley simply would generate enough income for the club to thrive at that level.
That's fine if that's what the then owner aspires to but in business terms it makes no sense. You would need a capacity of 40k. Hospitality far greater than The Valley could provide and bars and restaurants that provide an income stream not only once every fortnight for 9 months of the year.
At present the need to look at the peninsular site seems irrelevent but the land and opportunity won't be there forever. The RBG master plan has in place a DLR extension to the site. There is already North Greenwich Underground Station and the road links are probably better than for any other club in London.
Dismiss it out of hand might be the right thing to do but for me if everything was in place with a decent owner with ambition then missing the boat might be something that holds the club back forever.
If anyone thinks that a new stadium with good transport links is suddenly going to make us world beaters then you are clueless. It changes nothing but attract more twats to the matches.
Have to say - i'm all for a new ground, provided it was 40,000 +. The Valley will always have its place in Charlton and footballing history, but personally, I think we need a new ground in order to compete. Another couple of 'extensions' to the current stadium will make it look awkward. Transport and parking is poor. I regularly go to Derby's Pride Park (now called iPro) Stadium. It's got lot's of atmosphere, it's in a great location and is nice to look at. As is Brighton's ground.
A lot of the new grounds are the complete opposite to that though. The Reebok (Macron) stadium is a good example of a new ground that lacks any sort of atmosphere. The emirates is another that lacks atmosphere but is obviously a fantastic structure that has done wonders for Arsenals commercial avenues. What I fear the most is that by moving we'd end up with a ground with no atmosphere. Or we may end up with a ground like Hull City's which I have to say I thought was brilliant and showed me that it could be done correctly.
I have been to the Emirates, and I do think the atmosphere is a bit sterile. Personally, I think it's because of the clientèle more than the building, but I never went to Highbury, so I don't have anything to compare it to. Haven't been to Bolton or Hull's grounds... so can't really comment, but what is it about Hull which works, and doesn't at Reebok or Emirates?
Cant you all see its not all about attendances - its about pushing on to the next level. Instead of , as i keep saying, playing the likes of Aldershot and Accrington every week with a dwindling attendance of 'Valley diehard dinosaur sympathisers' and selling our best players every year, we could be playing the likes of Leicester and Liverpool in a modern stadium,with modern transport links in an area which is regarded as the Financial capital of the world- with new,younger, more international fanbase ! And maybe, you never know, dipping into Europe occasionally.
Yes, we could always (somehow) get into the Prem in our current form, but, we all know it isn't gonna happen for the next 10 years at least , maybe not in my lifetime again - and one of the reasons for that is that clubs like Leicester,Stoke,Bournemouth,Hull,Palace HAVE moved onto the next level - they have mostly built new stadiums, improved their attendances, improved their sponsorships,improved their income - all by trying to get to the next level and not sat still and glorified on the past thinking everything's alright.
Yes, I'm proud like everyone else of what was achieved in returning to The valley, i'm proud of our heritage but you cant live on past glories - you HAVE to move forward. Else we WILL remain Lidl Ol Charlton, watched by an ever-decreasing number of ageing fans crying out for the Valley Party to be re-formed, sliding inexorably towards oblivion (unless RD does it first,of course).
If building a new bigger ground guaranteed success, perhaps. Darlington are the best example of it not working but there are others, and even then most of those moved from old grounds which simply could not be brought up to date, which does not apply to us. If we don't get the on-field things right then we would be playing in front of ever-decreasing crowds in a lovely white elephant with a debt to rival Zimbabwe's and a football team about as good.
If anyone thinks that a new stadium with good transport links is suddenly going to make us world beaters then you are clueless. It changes nothing but attract more twats to the matches.
Getting more people to matches is the whole point though. Twats or otherwise.
Cant you all see its not all about attendances - its about pushing on to the next level. Instead of , as i keep saying, playing the likes of Aldershot and Accrington every week with a dwindling attendance of 'Valley diehard dinosaur sympathisers' and selling our best players every year, we could be playing the likes of Leicester and Liverpool in a modern stadium,with modern transport links in an area which is regarded as the Financial capital of the world- with new,younger, more international fanbase ! And maybe, you never know, dipping into Europe occasionally.
Yes, we could always (somehow) get into the Prem in our current form, but, we all know it isn't gonna happen for the next 10 years at least , maybe not in my lifetime again - and one of the reasons for that is that clubs like Leicester,Stoke,Bournemouth,Hull,Palace HAVE moved onto the next level - they have mostly built new stadiums, improved their attendances, improved their sponsorships,improved their income - all by trying to get to the next level and not sat still and glorified on the past thinking everything's alright.
Yes, I'm proud like everyone else of what was achieved in returning to The valley, i'm proud of our heritage but you cant live on past glories - you HAVE to move forward. Else we WILL remain Lidl Ol Charlton, watched by an ever-decreasing number of ageing fans crying out for the Valley Party to be re-formed, sliding inexorably towards oblivion (unless RD does it first,of course).
If building a new bigger ground guaranteed success, perhaps. Darlington are the best example of it not working but there are others, and even then most of those moved from old grounds which simply could not be brought up to date, which does not apply to us. If we don't get the on-field things right then we would be playing in front of ever-decreasing crowds in a lovely white elephant with a debt to rival Zimbabwe's and a football team about as good.
Errr, I don't think Darlington built their ground in the worlds biggest Financial centre, did they ? - You've only to look at Brighton and Amex to see the benefits of moving to the peninsular - imagine a ground/team that thousands of new residents could call 'their' team - a team that could be sponsored (even owned by as far as I'm concerned) by the likes of HSBC/Citi/State Street etc - its a bit different than being sponsored by Andrews Air Conditioning innit ? (no negs on AAC , of course). TBH, I don't give a toss if they have been fans for 50 years or 50 days - if they are wearing a red shirt and cheering on CAFC, then that's fine by me. Eventually (it might take a few years) but we could, with that financial clout behind us, become a middling to strong team in the Prem - a bit like Leicester were last season - and look what happened to them. I don't get the negativity, I really don't - put aside your nostalgia for a moment and think about what could be. To me, this is an incredible opportunity/possibility (if its still about) to move on up - it is such a no-brainer if it comes with no major net cost to the club. I don't want to be going down the Valley watching Aldershot - but I would certainly go to the Peninsular to watch Liverpool - what would you prefer?
Comments
http://www.cityam.com/228509/former-charlton-athletic-owners-sued-over-failed-promise-to-secure-greenwich-peninsula-stadium-development
27,000 was fine in our last Premier League stint but since then just about every other London Premier League team will have a ground even bigger than 40,000. As someone else said ticket money means nothing compared to TV revenue so why not push for 40,000 and offer cheap tickets to fill the ground?
Of course it all means nothing unless we get back to The Premier League and unless we can do so within 3-4 years we will soon find ourselves a long way behind all the other London teams maybe even Palace too if they sort themselves out a new stadium even they'd be looking for 40,000 and not impossible for them to have this in 3-4 years time if they stay afloat in The Premier League.
If 40,000 could potentially be done at The Valley then great, if not then I'm fine with a move to The Peninsula.
We struggled to sell out when in the premier league last time, and I cannot see things changing in the future.
We're still ahead of QPR, Palace, Fulham etc.
Think it would be madness to ever leave the Valley. We, more than any other club in the Country, should feel like that.
All the big London clubs are now sorted in terms of plans for bigger grounds.
Of the more local ones Palace will go more into Surrey. Millwall is a possibility, but in my opinion they are welcome to it. When they moved before it was claimed at the time that The New London Stadium would create a new type of supporter. It did not and the same would happen again. So they would play in a half empty stadium with the same issues they have now for a big game
Yes, we could always (somehow) get into the Prem in our current form, but, we all know it isn't gonna happen for the next 10 years at least , maybe not in my lifetime again - and one of the reasons for that is that clubs like Leicester,Stoke,Bournemouth,Hull,Palace HAVE moved onto the next level - they have mostly built new stadiums, improved their attendances, improved their sponsorships,improved their income - all by trying to get to the next level and not sat still and glorified on the past thinking everything's alright.
Yes, I'm proud like everyone else of what was achieved in returning to The valley, i'm proud of our heritage but you cant live on past glories - you HAVE to move forward. Else we WILL remain Lidl Ol Charlton, watched by an ever-decreasing number of ageing fans crying out for the Valley Party to be re-formed, sliding inexorably towards oblivion (unless RD does it first,of course).
Where do you get your crack from ?
as I'll be on the east terrace I wouldn't oppose them building a retractable roof over it for the winter months.
I would thus continue to argue that a modern stadium with 20k capacity would be ideal as we would rarely fill it outside of the Premiership (but at least it would be more full than The Valley), and in the Premiership there would be scarcity which would encourage more occasional fans to purchase season tickets.
Although The Valley is in much better shape than many other clubs who have moved in the past decade or two (eg. Reading, Bolton, Leicester etc.), it is still way behind acceptable modern standards - the North Lower and South stands have seats bolted onto a former terrace (with poor leg room/sightlines), whilst the East Stand and Upper West have no indoor concourse.
If it was a Waitrose it would say 'Greenwich' or 'North North Blackheath'
Of course the Valley is special to us, not least because we had it taken away from us, had to play miles away, and had to fight to get it back.
But a planned move on our terms and at our instigation to a brand new purpose built stadium with commercial revenue generating facilities, that's walking distance away, is entirely different in my mind.
But I probably thought that in about 1994 as well.
That's fine if that's what the then owner aspires to but in business terms it makes no sense. You would need a capacity of 40k. Hospitality far greater than The Valley could provide and bars and restaurants that provide an income stream not only once every fortnight for 9 months of the year.
At present the need to look at the peninsular site seems irrelevent but the land and opportunity won't be there forever. The RBG master plan has in place a DLR extension to the site. There is already North Greenwich Underground Station and the road links are probably better than for any other club in London.
Dismiss it out of hand might be the right thing to do but for me if everything was in place with a decent owner with ambition then missing the boat might be something that holds the club back forever.
I don't get the negativity, I really don't - put aside your nostalgia for a moment and think about what could be. To me, this is an incredible opportunity/possibility (if its still about) to move on up - it is such a no-brainer if it comes with no major net cost to the club.
I don't want to be going down the Valley watching Aldershot - but I would certainly go to the Peninsular to watch Liverpool - what would you prefer?