Various friends of my wife received racist abuse yesterday as well as some of their kids at school, all along the lines of 'go home' , 'you are getting deported' etc. Mother in law petrified about what's going to happen. So, while we're all debating over the rights and wrongs of Trump's election remember - this is some people's lives now, in the 21st century.
Apologies, but can you clarify please ? Are you saying Brits in Spain are being racially abused by the Spanish ?
I keep seeing that "progressives" need to engage and stop looking down on the disenfranchised and disillusioned. The need to engage is fair enough in principle. I don't look down on anyone, until their actions are deserving of derision. During the Brexit campaign I tried pretty hard to reason with people, I used facts and logic. I persuaded a few "floating voters" to go the right way (as I see it), but no-one who had made their mind up was budging. One actually said "I am not interested in facts", after I had shown him proof that what he had stated was wrong. I did it in a kind way, I wasn't ridiculing or belittling him in any way (he's a big bloke, and I'm not that stupid).
To others I used the analogy of being a member of a sports and social club to explain why the EU would almost certainly give the UK a rough ride post Brexit. If you pay your subs to get to use the subsidised bar, the bowling green, free golf on Saturday mornings and a half price jolly up to Margate twice a year, and then stop paying, why would the club continue to give you those privileges? It wouldn't happen and you wouldn't expect it. I was told they need us more than we need them. I explained that while as a whole we buy lots from the EU, between 26 individual countries it wasn't such a big deal. I just got told I was scaremongering. When the EU started suggesting that this might be the case, they quoted the the redtops who screamed that they were bullying the UK and we should always fight back against bullies.
The papers stated that millions of Turks were just waiting for the nod to come in and there was nothing we could do about it. I pointed out that under EU law every nation had a veto, and that even if the "democratically elected" UK government decided to say yes, there was no way Greece or Cyprus were ever going to let that happen. I was just told it wasn't true, basically because they had read it in the paper.
Finally I ask a perfectly reasonable question on here of someone who is neither disenfranchised or disillusioned, about how he manages to be doing much better financially at his particular job, while colleagues are being undercut by Romanians, I ask it twice and I still don't get an answer.
I keep seeing that "progressives" need to engage and stop looking down on the disenfranchised and disillusioned. The need to engage is fair enough in principle. I don't look down on anyone, until their actions are deserving of derision. During the Brexit campaign I tried pretty hard to reason with people, I used facts and logic. I persuaded a few "floating voters" to go the right way (as I see it), but no-one who had made their mind up was budging. One actually said "I am not interested in facts", after I had shown him proof that what he had stated was wrong. I did it in a kind way, I wasn't ridiculing or belittling him in any way (he's a big bloke, and I'm not that stupid).
To others I used the analogy of being a member of a sports and social club to explain why the EU would almost certainly give the UK a rough ride post Brexit. If you pay your subs to get to use the subsidised bar, the bowling green, free golf on Saturday mornings and a half price jolly up to Margate twice a year, and then stop paying, why would the club continue to give you those privileges? It wouldn't happen and you wouldn't expect it. I was told they need us more than we need them. I explained that while as a whole we buy lots from the EU, between 26 individual countries it wasn't such a big deal. I just got told I was scaremongering. When the EU started suggesting that this might be the case, they quoted the the redtops who screamed that they were bullying the UK and we should always fight back against bullies.
The papers stated that millions of Turks were just waiting for the nod to come in and there was nothing we could do about it. I pointed out that under EU law every nation had a veto, and that even if the "democratically elected" UK government decided to say yes, there was no way Greece or Cyprus were ever going to let that happen. I was just told it wasn't true, basically because they had read it in the paper.
Finally I ask a perfectly reasonable question on here of someone who is neither disenfranchised or disillusioned, about how he manages to be doing much better financially at his particular job, while colleagues are being undercut by Romanians, I ask it twice and I still don't get an answer.
How are progressives supposed to engage ?
What you're describing there @Algarveaddick is textbook Confirmation Bias.
It's a really interesting subject (well I think so) and we all suffer to one degree or another. There are even physiological effects.
If you're on the other side of that equation, in your case trying to argue your case for remaining by reference to facts* you think clearly support your view, it can get frustrating and be perceived as taking a superior attitude and talking down.
It's a shame that we live in a world of instant information that should result in a far more reasonable and informed exchange of views, whatever your starting point, yet we all seem to be more entrenched than ever.
Has anyone considered that Trump might do a good job?
I certainly considered it... I doubt he'd be as extreme as during his election, and doesn't have a sinister neocon machine behind him like Dubya... He has nobody behind him... I think he won't do anything at all and therefore won't be active destructive. I'd love it if politicians actually did nothing sometimes.
Has anyone considered that Trump might do a good job?
I certainly considered it... I doubt he'd be as extreme as during his election, and doesn't have a sinister neocon machine behind him like Dubya... He has nobody behind him... I think he won't do anything at all and therefore won't be active destructive. I'd love it if politicians actually did nothing sometimes.
I disagree. When you think that people like Rudy Giuliani, Newt Gingrich, John Bolton and Sarah Palin could be in line for top jobs then that chant about draining the swamp will be just another lie.
Sorry, still don't understand. Are you saying your wife's friends in the US are getting abuse in the US ?
His wife is American of Latin descent (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong CM).
@CharltonMadrid I hope her family and friends are okay. I think that this is kneejerk, I do not think this will last for four years. Until then, encourage your wife to encourage her friends to report it to the police, report it on Twitter, and do anything they feel comfortable with shining a light on these disgusting attacks.
Shaun King of the New York Daily News, an excellent activist, has ben sharing reports of hate crimes coming in all day on his Twitter.
Has anyone considered that Trump might do a good job?
I certainly considered it... I doubt he'd be as extreme as during his election, and doesn't have a sinister neocon machine behind him like Dubya... He has nobody behind him... I think he won't do anything at all and therefore won't be active destructive. I'd love it if politicians actually did nothing sometimes.
I disagree. When you think that people like Rudy Giuliani, Newt Gingrich, John Bolton and Sarah Palin could be in line for top jobs then that chant about draining the swamp will be just another lie.
I said it after similar reports back in June, and I'll say it again: those who are partaking in such actions were most likely doing so before.
No one woke up as an average human being, went to a polling station and voted Trump, and then walked out a flaming racist with a burning hatred in their heart. These feelings were there last week, and they're still there this week. No change.
Sure, the result may have provided them with a means of legitimising their views.. But is it not just as scary to think that those people were walking around in plain sight harbouring that hatred all along? I'd rather be able to see my foe than to contemplate whether they're sitting next to me, seething. Once you see the problem you can confront it.
Would a Hillary victory have seen these same individuals going around randomly hugging minorities and drawing hearts on random cars with lipstick?! Of course not. They'd just be the ones on Twitter now... But blaming blacks and Latinos for destroying their country. Just like the large number of "fuck white people" and "I hope white people die" tweets were posted yesterday. Are we going to confront those views too? Or are we going to label all Hillary supporters as racist and claim that they all hate white people? Hate begets hate.
It's classic causation vs correlation: America isn't in a state because Trump got voted in. Trump got voted in because America is in a state. A small percentage of people didn't become racist because they voted Trump, a small percentage of people voted Trump because they're racist. (Whilst I'm sure, like Brexit, a larger percentage voted for different reasons.)
What you're seeing is the result of social issues that were bubbling away for many years, not just since the election results came in. I've already said it once, but I'll reiterate: it's a traversty that those issues developed so intensely and were allowed to become so strong that this now happens. The blame for that doesn't lie in the past 12 months, it goes back much deeper.
Sorry, but have to say, "this".
I have to disagree. Yes, there were undoubtedly racists who wanted to create problems beforehand, just as there were here pre-Brexit. What both Brexit and Trump have done is give them massive confidence that they are not alone, that they can act on their beliefs. The Met police have reported a huge spike in hate crimes port-Brexit. And this is only the stuff that gets reported to them: I know plenty of people who won't report it either because they don't trust the police or they think it won't be dealt with. I think the same thing will happen in America now. The people who are attracted to the KKK think their man is now President-elect. He will roll back the 8 years of Obama. He will end "politcal correctness" which they think means they can attack black and Latino people with impunity again. (Maybe they can - I'd be interested in the views of those who are against political correctness as to what they think should happen here?) @QueenslandAddick pointed out so many papers that endorsed anyone but Trump earlier, but one that did enthusiastically support him was the KKK's paper. Will he be working to their agenda? His father was KKK, so he can't be unaware of where they stand. Or will he repudiate them and work for all Americans? If he doesn't - they will assume that he supports them, and they have already burned Black churches in this electoral campaign. A basic support of law and order suggests they ought ot be stopped from doing this and arrested if there is any risk they might. I won't be holding my breath. Ask anyone black or mixed race or even looking a bit foreign here what the reaction has been since Brexit? I;ve not met anyone who hasn't had some sort of hostility. Someone I know of Jamaican origin was abused and told to leave Britain the day after Brexit in Hackney - if it can happen there it can surely happen anywhere. Someone else I know, who has a Hungarian mother, was told that now was the time for Eastern Europeans to leave by his boss. To soften the blow, she added that she didn't mean him, which obviously made him feel a hell of a lot better. Yes, there will be a lot of people who were racist who are still racist in both the UK and US. The difference now is that they are convinced they are the silent majority and will act accordingly. I think it will be a massive positive for America if no one is killed because of this in the next couple of days.
I'd be inclined (based on no evidence) to believe that the alt right are just a shouty fringe with little actual impact, but a very easy target for the left, like islamic hate preachers are for anti immigration types.
That might have been true a few years ago, but the Breitbart chief Steve Bannon was heavily involved in Trump's campaign in recent months, and there's rumours he might become his Chief of Staff once Trump's in the White House. And then there's Raheem Kassam, who's the Breitbart London Editor in Chief, although possibly better known as Channel 4 News' go-to-guy when they need a studio guest on to defend the indefensible for balance (at least he is now that Milo "ropey blonde dye-job" Yiannopoulos has bogged of to the States). He used to be Farage's chief aide, and was supported in his recent bid to be UKIP leader by their main donor Arron Banks, although he withdrew his candidacy after about 3 days when the press pointed out that someone who is such an arsehole on twitter probably isn't suitable to lead a mainstream party. Although admittedly he's not as bad as Milo, who's actually managed to get himself banned from twitter.
Interestingly, I remember looking at the responses to his tweets before the election, and they seemed largely positive. It was as though his supporters were his only real followers, and there was a bit of an echo chamber of slogans and memes. That's not the case anymore.
I think that provides more credibility to the idea of a kompromat. Which is worrying, surely NSA do vetting on potential presidential candidates though?
Edit: Ah, I see this has been sunk. Fair play I guess.
Well isn't this just so f*cking hilarious. Looks like some of you should have studied the evidence about the Clinton Foundation that I posted earlier (and was subsequently proved to be true by Wikileaks), instead you continued to believe the crooked, biased leftist media, the crooked, biased Polls and your Twitter feeds, where the likes of Leuth seems to get all his information lol. The game is now up for you Marxists and leftists. You have infected academia, the media and the Hollywood set. Your social engineering ideals have brought the Western World and western culture to the edge of destruction. Your brand of PC, Identity politics has caused terrible devision, animosity, and left huge numbers of people afraid to even open their mouths for fear of being labelled "racist, xenophobic, homophobic" etc, simply because they want secure borders, safety for their families, jobs, or even because they simply believe in the traditional definition of marriage. Well, the silent majority has now spoken. First with Brexit, now Trump, and next watch for France and Germany to go exactly the same way. Seriously though, how out of is the media these day's? How out of touch is CL?Where are all the conservatives? (Too frightened to speak out probably for fear of being labelled a Jimmy Savile sympathiser or a bigot, as I have been on this thread!) The mainstream media and Charlton Life are certainly not representative of the majority are they ( Trump is winning the popular vote as well BTW). 65 pages here of overwhelmingly anti Trump sentiment, and yet the majority of Americans voted for him, very strange! Suck it up all you Lefties, this is where the kick back begins, you got so far but ultimately you failed, just as socialism always fails, but not before it has caused immeasurable damage. Mwahahhahaaahaah!
I like you.
Imagine the knicker twisting that will go on, on here if Le Pen gets in over in France hahaha.
The revolution has started people, change is a coming
Here's my question to you both. What change do you actually want ?
I'm off to start a nine hour shift soon. By the time I get home I'm certain this question won't be answered.
The end of social engineering, the end of political correctness and the "I'm offended" culture, secure borders, law and order, jobs for indigenous citizens, justice, honesty, a fair and balanced media, an education system that teaches conservatism rather than indoctrinating every single student with only socialist views, safety for our families, encourage aspiration and hard work by lowering taxes, discouraging welfare dependancy. There, you won't agree with any of it, but that's my answer.
Yes Mein Fuhrer.
Fuckin disgraceful comment that
Incredible isn't it. He called me Nazi, Imagine that! (still better than the earlier Jimmy Saville sympathiser accusations I suppose) and not a single abuse flag to be seen. Back on page 70, I got 7 flags (is that a record btw?) for saying "suck it up Lefties", from all the precious crybabies. A sad refection of what has become of CL and society in general, and the very reason the right of centre revolution is gaining such traction all over the world. As I said, people have had enough of it. I will defend SHG's right to call me whatever he wants (sticks and stones, and all that) I will not be screaming for admin to intervene, or be crying that my human rights have be violated in some way for having to endure such deeply offensive remarks. It's actually great fun. What time does the Black Knight (Leuth) come back online? I've still got some champagne and popcorn ready to enjoy, "it's just a flesh wound" hahaha
Interestingly, I remember looking at the responses to his tweets before the election, and they seemed largely positive. It was as though his supporters were his only real followers, and there was a bit of an echo chamber of slogans and memes. That's not the case anymore.
Yeah that was very disappointing.
It's going to be strange seeing how he goes from campaigning to governing. His set-up was entirely for campaigning. This is the kind of stuff that, when everyone is covering everything you do because you're the President, I just don't think it will play, regardless of how silly I think it is.
In general I think he'll be tamer. It's worth remembering he was a Democrat from 2001-2008, arguably the hardest time to be a Democrat. He is many things, but he is not an ideologue. He reads certain rooms very, very well, and certain situations well, and he is a good negotiator and he negotiated his way to the Presidency (there's a lot of blind optimism here but it's all I've got right now).
I have spent a lot of time in the past couple days wondering what kind of President he will be, and honestly, the congress scares me more. I am currently looking at having to change jobs because I will almost certainly lose my healthcare which I purchase through the exchanges set up by Obamacare. If that is repealed entirely, I won't be able to buy health insurance for myself because I have a pre-existing condition, meaning companies won't have to cover me. So I'll probably end up leaving one of the best research institutes, let alone technical universities in the country to join whoever will have me and can provide me health insurance.
Sorry, I digress. I think Trump is going to get very bored with Governing, but I don't know what happens then. Does Pence do it? Does he assemble an alt-right staff, led by Breitbart's Steve Bannon (who scares me more than the rest) to try to run the country? The thing that gives me hope is that few of the names being thrown around (and treat those with skepticism) have ever done any serious governing before. The thing that scares me is that the names being thrown around haven't done any serious governing before.
Then this morning seeing images of these so called peace loving people, burning American flags - nice but has dick all to do with trump, so far since the vote the only group causing problems are the anti trump brigade - proving the same as remain voters, let's have a tantrum because we didn't get our way, and they would be far better off if they had a reason not to want him instead of chanting "not my president" and "fuck Donald trump" I think the world has just taken 2 steps back from ww3, for that I'm greatful
Comments
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias#Persistence_of_discredited_beliefs
It's a really interesting subject (well I think so) and we all suffer to one degree or another. There are even physiological effects.
If you're on the other side of that equation, in your case trying to argue your case for remaining by reference to facts* you think clearly support your view, it can get frustrating and be perceived as taking a superior attitude and talking down.
It's a shame that we live in a world of instant information that should result in a far more reasonable and informed exchange of views, whatever your starting point, yet we all seem to be more entrenched than ever.
*subject to ones own confirmation bias of course.
https://www.facebook.com/JonathanPieReporter/videos/1044777035645189/
Dropped quicker than an NHS pledge.
You have an opinion. I have an opinion. Your opinion is not my opinion therefore you are scum.
https://scientificamerican.com/article/trump-picks-top-climate-skeptic-to-lead-epa-transition/
Still waiting on people like yourself and @ValleyGary to say the same about this Swastikas and other racists attacks listed here:
https://www.splcenter.org/reporthate
If attacks of hate crimes are only going to be condemned by one side then I don't want to be a part of this conversation anymore.
@CharltonMadrid I hope her family and friends are okay. I think that this is kneejerk, I do not think this will last for four years. Until then, encourage your wife to encourage her friends to report it to the police, report it on Twitter, and do anything they feel comfortable with shining a light on these disgusting attacks.
Shaun King of the New York Daily News, an excellent activist, has ben sharing reports of hate crimes coming in all day on his Twitter.
https://twitter.com/ShaunKing
The Met police have reported a huge spike in hate crimes port-Brexit. And this is only the stuff that gets reported to them: I know plenty of people who won't report it either because they don't trust the police or they think it won't be dealt with. I think the same thing will happen in America now. The people who are attracted to the KKK think their man is now President-elect. He will roll back the 8 years of Obama. He will end "politcal correctness" which they think means they can attack black and Latino people with impunity again. (Maybe they can - I'd be interested in the views of those who are against political correctness as to what they think should happen here?)
@QueenslandAddick pointed out so many papers that endorsed anyone but Trump earlier, but one that did enthusiastically support him was the KKK's paper. Will he be working to their agenda? His father was KKK, so he can't be unaware of where they stand. Or will he repudiate them and work for all Americans? If he doesn't - they will assume that he supports them, and they have already burned Black churches in this electoral campaign. A basic support of law and order suggests they ought ot be stopped from doing this and arrested if there is any risk they might. I won't be holding my breath.
Ask anyone black or mixed race or even looking a bit foreign here what the reaction has been since Brexit? I;ve not met anyone who hasn't had some sort of hostility. Someone I know of Jamaican origin was abused and told to leave Britain the day after Brexit in Hackney - if it can happen there it can surely happen anywhere. Someone else I know, who has a Hungarian mother, was told that now was the time for Eastern Europeans to leave by his boss. To soften the blow, she added that she didn't mean him, which obviously made him feel a hell of a lot better.
Yes, there will be a lot of people who were racist who are still racist in both the UK and US. The difference now is that they are convinced they are the silent majority and will act accordingly. I think it will be a massive positive for America if no one is killed because of this in the next couple of days.
Interestingly, I remember looking at the responses to his tweets before the election, and they seemed largely positive. It was as though his supporters were his only real followers, and there was a bit of an echo chamber of slogans and memes. That's not the case anymore.
I think that provides more credibility to the idea of a kompromat. Which is worrying, surely NSA do vetting on potential presidential candidates though?
Edit: Ah, I see this has been sunk. Fair play I guess.
Back on page 70, I got 7 flags (is that a record btw?) for saying "suck it up Lefties", from all the precious crybabies.
A sad refection of what has become of CL and society in general, and the very reason the right of centre revolution is gaining such traction all over the world. As I said, people have had enough of it.
I will defend SHG's right to call me whatever he wants (sticks and stones, and all that) I will not be screaming for admin to intervene, or be crying that my human rights have be violated in some way for having to endure such deeply offensive remarks.
It's actually great fun. What time does the Black Knight (Leuth) come back online? I've still got some champagne and popcorn ready to enjoy, "it's just a flesh wound" hahaha
It's going to be strange seeing how he goes from campaigning to governing. His set-up was entirely for campaigning. This is the kind of stuff that, when everyone is covering everything you do because you're the President, I just don't think it will play, regardless of how silly I think it is.
In general I think he'll be tamer. It's worth remembering he was a Democrat from 2001-2008, arguably the hardest time to be a Democrat. He is many things, but he is not an ideologue. He reads certain rooms very, very well, and certain situations well, and he is a good negotiator and he negotiated his way to the Presidency (there's a lot of blind optimism here but it's all I've got right now).
I have spent a lot of time in the past couple days wondering what kind of President he will be, and honestly, the congress scares me more. I am currently looking at having to change jobs because I will almost certainly lose my healthcare which I purchase through the exchanges set up by Obamacare. If that is repealed entirely, I won't be able to buy health insurance for myself because I have a pre-existing condition, meaning companies won't have to cover me. So I'll probably end up leaving one of the best research institutes, let alone technical universities in the country to join whoever will have me and can provide me health insurance.
Sorry, I digress. I think Trump is going to get very bored with Governing, but I don't know what happens then. Does Pence do it? Does he assemble an alt-right staff, led by Breitbart's Steve Bannon (who scares me more than the rest) to try to run the country? The thing that gives me hope is that few of the names being thrown around (and treat those with skepticism) have ever done any serious governing before. The thing that scares me is that the names being thrown around haven't done any serious governing before.