A more valid argument is do you want them turning up on your street?
And honestly I can't see why anyone would be that bothered if a Syrian refugee family did move in down the road.
Female friend in nice road in Sidcup had a group of Polish move in next door. About 4males and 2 females in a 3 bedroom house. Two of the males and 1 of the females are constantly in residence, the other occupants are transient and can change almost daily.
They stand outside the front of the house drinking and smoking, they park on and across here drive, they have noisy party's. Any attempt to discuss this with them is met by abuse, and even threats to a single woman in her fifties.
Perhaps this is acceptable in Poland, cultural differences and all that. However, I am sure that none of would want to live under the stress and anguish these people have caused.
The activity has now been toned down. After our Polish friends had it pointed out them that, whilst she lived alone she was not without some support.
What's this got to do with Asylum seekers from Syria. In 6 months time this could 6 Syrians living next door to you !
Yeh. When I lived in Forest Hill had a similar problem. Family living upstairs constantly drunk, incomprehensible screaming rows at 4am when I had to go to work next day, got burgled 1 month after they moved in, two underfed kids, council did nothing in response to my complaints. English bastards.
Exactly enough scum already here, without letting in somebody else's . This and the other responses of the same ilk re shit English neighbors is a very tired argument. Let's try and find something more original can we !
After your original post? Beyond parody.
Charlton Life bingo, I just need a "Jesus Wept" and my card will be marked !
As a teacher I take a lot of comfort in young people's empathetic and tolerant views about those less fortunate, especially when I read some of the more depressing 'adult' opinions on here. I always hope that today's teenagers don't become so suspicious and cynical towards others when they 'grow up'.
As a teacher I take a lot of comfort in young people's empathetic and tolerant views about those less fortunate, especially when I read some of the more depressing 'adult' opinions on here. I always hope that today's teenagers don't become so suspicious and cynical towards others when they 'grow up'.
I feel sorry for what those Syrians are going through and I understand why they want to get out of the Country but I hope we are do not get too compassionate otherwise more will want to enter Europe. We already have a crisis in Calais which will only get worse and eventually the French will get so fed up and will eventually give every single one of those migrants EU citizenship.
Before Cameron announces number of Syrian refugees the UK will take, hope he can give assurances on numbers the more peaceful Arab States will be taking?
What worries me most is that none of those refugees are being checked and the stupid EU is saying 'come on down' to any of them. Have they not thought that possibly a small percentage of those refugees may have links to terriost groups? My concern is that Isis have actually said that they will use the migrant wave to flood Europe with half a million of their fighters.
As a teacher I take a lot of comfort in young people's empathetic and tolerant views about those less fortunate, especially when I read some of the more depressing 'adult' opinions on here. I always hope that today's teenagers don't become so suspicious and cynical towards others when they 'grow up'.
Your views will be reflective of your life experience. I don,t know the age group you teach but let's say 16 year olds. They are seeing a very different England to the one I was in 40 years ago when I was 16.They are more accepting and empathetic towards immigration in all forms, as I expect a large portion of them are immigrants themselves, or first or second generation, or at the very least mix with other students who are in these categories. They are more tolerant , as they know no difference , and have nothing to compare the current situation with. Equally I am guessing you are older than them, but younger than me, and have a view closer to theirs.
We are not suspicious and cynical for no reason, we look at our country and do not feel that it belongs to us anymore. We as English people are losing our cultural identity , in London we are becoming a minority in our own country. This is not a racist view this is just how it is. I watch the news and see young black males of 15 years of age stabbing each other to death over a post code. Now that depresses me and makes me cynical about the prospect of more issues with the newer immigrants. Most of these young black men seem to come from good family's , so why are so out of control. So are the nice Syrian Family's we bring in today, the parents of the Muslim extremists of 2035 ?
We will only know when we look back in time. Your kids have nothing yet to look back and compare it with.
As a teacher I take a lot of comfort in young people's empathetic and tolerant views about those less fortunate, especially when I read some of the more depressing 'adult' opinions on here. I always hope that today's teenagers don't become so suspicious and cynical towards others when they 'grow up'.
Your views will be reflective of your life experience. I don,t know the age group you teach but let's say 16 year olds. They are seeing a very different England to the one I was in 40 years ago when I was 16.They are more accepting and empathetic towards immigration in all forms, as I expect a large portion of them are immigrants themselves, or first or second generation, or at the very least mix with other students who are in these categories. They are more tolerant , as they know no difference , and have nothing to compare the current situation with. Equally I am guessing you are older than them, but younger than me, and have a view closer to theirs.
We are not suspicious and cynical for no reason, we look at our country and do not feel that it belongs to us anymore. We as English people are losing our cultural identity , in London we are becoming a minority in our own country. This is not a racist view this is just how it is. I watch the news and see young black males of 15 years of age stabbing each other to death over a post code. Now that depresses me and makes me cynical about the prospect of more issues with the newer immigrants. Most of these young black men seem to come from good family's , so why are so out of control. So are the nice Syrian Family's we bring in today, the parents of the Muslim extremists of 2035 ?
We will only know when we look back in time. Your kids have nothing yet to look back and compare it with.
Hi Ralph .....not an oppositional post , but do you not think you are looking a little through rose coloured spectacles. Every generation of young people are castigated by their elders. Fifty years ago the mods and rockers ( almost all white young men) met and kicked seven bells out each other , or stabbed each other.
It was , I am afraid ever thus ....
"When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly disrespectful and impatient of restraint". Hesiod, 8th century BC
"What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?" Plato, 4th Century BC
"The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint... As for the girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress." Attributed to Peter the Hermit, AD 1274
In April 1738, the press covered a report from a British Government committee which had been set up to "examine the causes of the present notorious immorality and profaneness."
In the 1800s, hordes of teens and pre-teens ran wild in American city streets, dodging authorities, "gnawing away at the foundations of society", as a commentator put it. In 1850, New York City recorded more than 200 gang wars fought largely by adolescent boys.5
"Juvenile delinquency has increased at an alarming rate and is eating at the heart of America" US juvenile court judge, 19466
Compassion don't put food on the table or warmth on the skin, show me a way to pay for those in need of assistance and a plan to assist a safe return should the risk be reduce, I agree that orphans and the vulnerable children Need to be the focus, but as long as we continue to cut areas of welfare for those in need in the UK who are UK citizens from birth to facilitate it. The aid budget won't last forever, the cost of a family to be housed, clothed, educated and maintained in good health is huge, there are not enough places in schools already my daughter didn't get in to her choice half a mile away, and the reason was that a whole housing block had a huge amount of eu foreign residents, mainly Poles get the housing spaces how I don't know but they were closer than us so got in,
This will happen over and over adopted children are highest on the list of priority and this will move more local English kids to be further Down the lists
It's a sham, it's driven by guilt and a need to feel that some are un caring and less humane than others who want to be seen as a caring and loving human, when in reality all harbour the same feeling and the same concern but have no solutions as the laws are made by others,
Sometimes it's helpful to imagine what the subject of a thread looks like. So to help everyone picture, in their mind's eye, what the son of a Syrian migrant looks like, here's a photo.
We need to look after our own first, say people who would never help anyone
TOTAL bastards have responded to the refugee crisis with a sudden interest in looking after their neighbours.
54-year-old Mary Fisher, who has never done anything except antagonise those around her, wants to prioritise the local poor people that she described last week as ‘useless bonk-eyed fuckers’.
She said: “It’s all very well with these migrants, but first we’ve got to help the little kiddies at home who are going to bed with empty stomachs.
“I have no personal interest in doing that, but in theory that is what we should do.”
Retired bus driver and bastard Norman Steele has also discovered a sudden interest in local charity.
He said: “There are unemployed families on my road that are really hungry, I know this because I shoot at them with an air gun when they come near my vegetable patch.
“These refugees may be fellow members of the human race but that is not enough reason to help them. What matters is not a person’s level of desperation but their geographical proximity to your sofa.”
Steele added: “I have previously helped others, admittedly it was by keeping a look out while they robbed a garden centre but the point is I gave up my time for just a few bags of peat.”
It's all very well saying refugees should go to their nearest safe country, but when there's that many of them, it's just not feasible. Lebanon's got roughly a million Syrian refugees right now, in a country of 4-5 million people. We're generously offering to take 20,000 over the next five years, despite the fact we've got more than twenty times as much space and only half the population density. Using "We're full" as an excuse just doesn't cut it.
It's all very well saying refugees should go to their nearest safe country, but when there's that many of them, it's just not feasible. Lebanon's got roughly a million Syrian refugees right now, in a country of 4-5 million people. We're generously offering to take 20,000 over the next five years, despite the fact we've got more than twenty times as much space and only half the population density. Using "We're full" as an excuse just doesn't cut it.
They are not going to live all around the country though, are they? The good majority will head to one of three or four cities.
As for all of those saying that 'would you have one in your house' is a ridiculous arguement..... so you think we should take them in, house them and help them, as long as it's someone else's house? Nice.
Of course, in a perfect world we could help everyone who needed it, sadly that is not the case. Where are we going to put these people?
If people are willing to go to the correct camps, sign up as refugees and wait to be placed, then I think we certainly need to help, however as soon as people start fighting with police, rioting or causing trouble, they are no longer refugees, in my opinion, they are just the same as the scum sitting in Calais. If that means they get placed in Spain, rathern than Germany or Italy, so be it, both are far safer than the place they are fleeing, I'm sure.
Sometimes it's helpful to imagine what the subject of a thread looks like. So to help everyone picture, in their mind's eye, what the son of a Syrian migrant looks like, here's a photo.
I don't often find myself agreeing with "Call me Dave" but I do agree with his policy to take refugees from the camps in Jordan etc. We know they are genuinely in real need. What concerns me from what I see from Hungary etc. is that whilst there are women and children there is a lot of what appears to be fit, tough young men so what is their motivation? as someone said earlier how do we know there are not hundreds, maybe even thousands of IS fighters in amongst them?
many will probably call me paranoid but could this not be invasion by stealth? I fear that Europe will live to bitterly regret the open door policy in years to come and until we can be secure in knowing that IS is no more we should be very, very wary of what comes next.
Was I moved by what happened to those two little boys? of course and I was also concerned when I saw photo's of Syrian men brandishing knives and clubs trying to get on a train in Montenegro if they are so ready to fight there why don't they go back to Syria and try to rid their country of this IS contagion?
Maybe it is just me but I am confused as to how the UK, Germany or any other European country is going to make the situation any better by opening their doors to a few thousand refugees.
Better for whom? Because if the UK, Germany or any other country provides refuge to a few thousand refugees, I can think of a few thousand people for whom life suddenly becomes a whole lot better, more comfortable and safer.
Rather than let a small number join our countries, we need to give all of the refugees their country back. This is going to require military intervention. But the longer we wait, the more difficult it is going to be to do this.
"Military intervention" (and, of course there is a wide range of possibilities that might encompass) may well solve the immediate and medium-term crisis. But, at what cost? A few thousand lives? A few thousand British troops' lives?
Your suggestions (and I believe that you hold them honestly) can be paired down to this: "there's no point looking after a few thousand people who are in desperate need of support right now; instead, we should risk the lives of tens of thousands of others (and the certain death of numbers of British armed forces) to ensure the situation ends as soon as possible".
The problem - apart from the British body bags; the un-told numbers of civilian casualties; the certain additional threat to all British subjects at home and abroad; and the multi-million dollar cost of financing yet another overseas war - is that it would take years to prosecute.
The Iraq War - when we knew who and where the enemy was - took eight years.
Add to the confusion by not knowing who the enemy is - Assad? Forces opposed to Assad? al-Ba'ath? Hezbollah? al-Nusrah Front? Sootoro? Islamic Front? Mujahedeen? The Taliban? ISIS? Russia? - and you have a recipe for a never-ending war.
By all means propose a way of resolving the crisis. But simply suggesting the two words "military intervention" as the solution is missing the mark by a long way.
How do you propose that the crisis is going to be solved if not militarily?
I didn't say that the solution does not include military action. I said that merely suggesting "military intervention" as the solution doesn't fully cover it. We can't be fooled into thinking that simply dropping bombs on people we don't like will give us the solution we want. Otherwise, the first V2 rocket that landed on London 71 years ago today would have resulted in us all posting in German, here on Charlton Leben.
Maybe it is just me but I am confused as to how the UK, Germany or any other European country is going to make the situation any better by opening their doors to a few thousand refugees.
Better for whom? Because if the UK, Germany or any other country provides refuge to a few thousand refugees, I can think of a few thousand people for whom life suddenly becomes a whole lot better, more comfortable and safer.
Rather than let a small number join our countries, we need to give all of the refugees their country back. This is going to require military intervention. But the longer we wait, the more difficult it is going to be to do this.
"Military intervention" (and, of course there is a wide range of possibilities that might encompass) may well solve the immediate and medium-term crisis. But, at what cost? A few thousand lives? A few thousand British troops' lives?
Your suggestions (and I believe that you hold them honestly) can be paired down to this: "there's no point looking after a few thousand people who are in desperate need of support right now; instead, we should risk the lives of tens of thousands of others (and the certain death of numbers of British armed forces) to ensure the situation ends as soon as possible".
The problem - apart from the British body bags; the un-told numbers of civilian casualties; the certain additional threat to all British subjects at home and abroad; and the multi-million dollar cost of financing yet another overseas war - is that it would take years to prosecute.
The Iraq War - when we knew who and where the enemy was - took eight years.
Add to the confusion by not knowing who the enemy is - Assad? Forces opposed to Assad? al-Ba'ath? Hezbollah? al-Nusrah Front? Sootoro? Islamic Front? Mujahedeen? The Taliban? ISIS? Russia? - and you have a recipe for a never-ending war.
By all means propose a way of resolving the crisis. But simply suggesting the two words "military intervention" as the solution is missing the mark by a long way.
How do you propose that the crisis is going to be solved if not militarily?
I didn't say that the solution does not include military action. I said that merely suggesting "military intervention" as the solution doesn't fully cover it. We can't be fooled into thinking that simply dropping bombs on people we don't like will give us the solution we want. Otherwise, the first V2 rocket that landed on London 71 years ago today would have resulted in us all posting in German, here on Charlton Leben.
If we hadn't taken military action against Nazi Germany in WW2 then we would definitely be posting in German now so you could equally argue that it DID give us the result that we wanted.
Maybe it is just me but I am confused as to how the UK, Germany or any other European country is going to make the situation any better by opening their doors to a few thousand refugees.
Better for whom? Because if the UK, Germany or any other country provides refuge to a few thousand refugees, I can think of a few thousand people for whom life suddenly becomes a whole lot better, more comfortable and safer.
Rather than let a small number join our countries, we need to give all of the refugees their country back. This is going to require military intervention. But the longer we wait, the more difficult it is going to be to do this.
"Military intervention" (and, of course there is a wide range of possibilities that might encompass) may well solve the immediate and medium-term crisis. But, at what cost? A few thousand lives? A few thousand British troops' lives?
Your suggestions (and I believe that you hold them honestly) can be paired down to this: "there's no point looking after a few thousand people who are in desperate need of support right now; instead, we should risk the lives of tens of thousands of others (and the certain death of numbers of British armed forces) to ensure the situation ends as soon as possible".
The problem - apart from the British body bags; the un-told numbers of civilian casualties; the certain additional threat to all British subjects at home and abroad; and the multi-million dollar cost of financing yet another overseas war - is that it would take years to prosecute.
The Iraq War - when we knew who and where the enemy was - took eight years.
Add to the confusion by not knowing who the enemy is - Assad? Forces opposed to Assad? al-Ba'ath? Hezbollah? al-Nusrah Front? Sootoro? Islamic Front? Mujahedeen? The Taliban? ISIS? Russia? - and you have a recipe for a never-ending war.
By all means propose a way of resolving the crisis. But simply suggesting the two words "military intervention" as the solution is missing the mark by a long way.
How do you propose that the crisis is going to be solved if not militarily?
I didn't say that the solution does not include military action. I said that merely suggesting "military intervention" as the solution doesn't fully cover it. We can't be fooled into thinking that simply dropping bombs on people we don't like will give us the solution we want. Otherwise, the first V2 rocket that landed on London 71 years ago today would have resulted in us all posting in German, here on Charlton Leben.
If we hadn't taken military action against Nazi Germany in WW2 then we would definitely be posting in German now so you could equally argue that it DID give us the result that we wanted.
That's not true though. I went to Berlin last year and they were all speaking German and last time I checked they lost the war!
S**t just got real, people on the Charlton fans Facebook group are not happy. I agree with the sentiments of the banner but think there will be trouble if it appears at the match.
S**t just got real, people on the Charlton fans Facebook group are not happy. I agree with the sentiments of the banner but think there will be trouble if it appears at the match.
if I turned up with a refugees not welcome banner I would probably get chucked out of the stadium for racist behaviour,
that banner is a joke and I'm hoping its no where I am sitting, quite obviously we don't all share the same view, there will be tears in years to come.
Maybe it is just me but I am confused as to how the UK, Germany or any other European country is going to make the situation any better by opening their doors to a few thousand refugees.
Better for whom? Because if the UK, Germany or any other country provides refuge to a few thousand refugees, I can think of a few thousand people for whom life suddenly becomes a whole lot better, more comfortable and safer.
Rather than let a small number join our countries, we need to give all of the refugees their country back. This is going to require military intervention. But the longer we wait, the more difficult it is going to be to do this.
"Military intervention" (and, of course there is a wide range of possibilities that might encompass) may well solve the immediate and medium-term crisis. But, at what cost? A few thousand lives? A few thousand British troops' lives?
Your suggestions (and I believe that you hold them honestly) can be paired down to this: "there's no point looking after a few thousand people who are in desperate need of support right now; instead, we should risk the lives of tens of thousands of others (and the certain death of numbers of British armed forces) to ensure the situation ends as soon as possible".
The problem - apart from the British body bags; the un-told numbers of civilian casualties; the certain additional threat to all British subjects at home and abroad; and the multi-million dollar cost of financing yet another overseas war - is that it would take years to prosecute.
The Iraq War - when we knew who and where the enemy was - took eight years.
Add to the confusion by not knowing who the enemy is - Assad? Forces opposed to Assad? al-Ba'ath? Hezbollah? al-Nusrah Front? Sootoro? Islamic Front? Mujahedeen? The Taliban? ISIS? Russia? - and you have a recipe for a never-ending war.
By all means propose a way of resolving the crisis. But simply suggesting the two words "military intervention" as the solution is missing the mark by a long way.
Almost right - there is every point in looking after a few thousand - we must keep them safe, educate them and help them to re-build their countries when the time comes. This means a massive commitment to camps - not prisons, not slums, but a stepping stone to resolving the problem. What my fear is that we house a few thousand in Britain and Germany and it encourages a few thousand more and a few thousand more and we decide we have done our bit. I think it is trying to look at the next page and look for a solution.
In terms of military inetrvention. I think that IS needs to be destroyed. I would add that it has to be done in a strategic way. Muslim countries have to be at the heart of it, but we need to be right behind them. Iran is a muslim country - our enemy - but we have to accept that they are the enemy of IS and we have to make them our friends. Russia is our enemy - ditto. This was achieved during the war when leaders from different countries with different moral positions found a way to work together for the greater good. I am saying that IS is in my opinion the biggest threat to all of our safety in our lifetimes and pragmatic, logical, well thought out and non emotional decisions have to be made. I want lives to be saved- not lost.
S**t just got real, people on the Charlton fans Facebook group are not happy. I agree with the sentiments of the banner but think there will be trouble if it appears at the match.
Comments
Before Cameron announces number of Syrian refugees the UK will take, hope he can give assurances on numbers the more peaceful Arab States will be taking?
What worries me most is that none of those refugees are being checked and the stupid EU is saying 'come on down' to any of them. Have they not thought that possibly a small percentage of those refugees may have links to terriost groups? My concern is that Isis have actually said that they will use the migrant wave to flood Europe with half a million of their fighters.
We are not suspicious and cynical for no reason, we look at our country and do not feel that it belongs to us anymore. We as English people are losing our cultural identity , in London we are becoming a minority in our own country. This is not a racist view this is just how it is. I watch the news and see young black males of 15 years of age stabbing each other to death over a post code. Now that depresses me and makes me cynical about the prospect of more issues with the newer immigrants. Most of these young black men seem to come from good family's , so why are so out of control. So are the nice Syrian Family's we bring in today, the parents of the Muslim extremists of 2035 ?
We will only know when we look back in time. Your kids have nothing yet to look back and compare it with.
It was , I am afraid ever thus ....
"When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly disrespectful and impatient of restraint".
Hesiod, 8th century BC
"What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"
Plato, 4th Century BC
"The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint... As for the girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress."
Attributed to Peter the Hermit, AD 1274
In April 1738, the press covered a report from a British Government committee which had been set up to "examine the causes of the present notorious immorality and profaneness."
In the 1800s, hordes of teens and pre-teens ran wild in American city streets, dodging authorities, "gnawing away at the foundations of society", as a commentator put it. In 1850, New York City recorded more than 200 gang wars fought largely by adolescent boys.5
"Juvenile delinquency has increased at an alarming rate and is eating at the heart of America"
US juvenile court judge, 19466
This will happen over and over adopted children are highest on the list of priority and this will move more local English kids to be further Down the lists
It's a sham, it's driven by guilt and a need to feel that some are un caring and less humane than others who want to be seen as a caring and loving human, when in reality all harbour the same feeling and the same concern but have no solutions as the laws are made by others,
We need to look after our own first, say people who would never help anyone
TOTAL bastards have responded to the refugee crisis with a sudden interest in looking after their neighbours.
54-year-old Mary Fisher, who has never done anything except antagonise those around her, wants to prioritise the local poor people that she described last week as ‘useless bonk-eyed fuckers’.
She said: “It’s all very well with these migrants, but first we’ve got to help the little kiddies at home who are going to bed with empty stomachs.
“I have no personal interest in doing that, but in theory that is what we should do.”
Retired bus driver and bastard Norman Steele has also discovered a sudden interest in local charity.
He said: “There are unemployed families on my road that are really hungry, I know this because I shoot at them with an air gun when they come near my vegetable patch.
“These refugees may be fellow members of the human race but that is not enough reason to help them. What matters is not a person’s level of desperation but their geographical proximity to your sofa.”
Steele added: “I have previously helped others, admittedly it was by keeping a look out while they robbed a garden centre but the point is I gave up my time for just a few bags of peat.”
https://youtube.com/watch?v=q-2UT3817TA
As for all of those saying that 'would you have one in your house' is a ridiculous arguement..... so you think we should take them in, house them and help them, as long as it's someone else's house? Nice.
Of course, in a perfect world we could help everyone who needed it, sadly that is not the case. Where are we going to put these people?
If people are willing to go to the correct camps, sign up as refugees and wait to be placed, then I think we certainly need to help, however as soon as people start fighting with police, rioting or causing trouble, they are no longer refugees, in my opinion, they are just the same as the scum sitting in Calais. If that means they get placed in Spain, rathern than Germany or Italy, so be it, both are far safer than the place they are fleeing, I'm sure.
many will probably call me paranoid but could this not be invasion by stealth? I fear that Europe will live to bitterly regret the open door policy in years to come and until we can be secure in knowing that IS is no more we should be very, very wary of what comes next.
Was I moved by what happened to those two little boys? of course and I was also concerned when I saw photo's of Syrian men brandishing knives and clubs trying to get on a train in Montenegro if they are so ready to fight there why don't they go back to Syria and try to rid their country of this IS contagion?
"if I see it goes up I am taking it down"
"some kind of sick joke"
Makes me sad that some could react that way, honestly.
that banner is a joke and I'm hoping its no where I am sitting, quite obviously we don't all share the same view, there will be tears in years to come.
In terms of military inetrvention. I think that IS needs to be destroyed. I would add that it has to be done in a strategic way. Muslim countries have to be at the heart of it, but we need to be right behind them. Iran is a muslim country - our enemy - but we have to accept that they are the enemy of IS and we have to make them our friends. Russia is our enemy - ditto. This was achieved during the war when leaders from different countries with different moral positions found a way to work together for the greater good. I am saying that IS is in my opinion the biggest threat to all of our safety in our lifetimes and pragmatic, logical, well thought out and non emotional decisions have to be made. I want lives to be saved- not lost.