Henry if you want to characterise me as a 'bloody foreigner' hater you can just jog on. My view is always that we should take the best and the brightest and that goes for whatever race, nationality or religion.
You talk about some of the relatively successful immigrant communitied but funnily enough you don't mention some of the ones that have tied up our security services in knots, raped girls on an industrial scale and have been a huge drain on our welfare budget.
Sorry if I'm less than enthused about allowing refugees in when our track record of integration has been so patchy and our inability to toss out the bad apples has made us an international joke.
Henry if you want to characterise me as a 'bloody foreigner' hater you can just jog on. My view is always that we should take the best and the brightest and that goes for whatever race, nationality or religion.
You talk about some of the relatively successful immigrant communitied but funnily enough you don't mention some of the ones that have tied up our security services in knots, raped girls on an industrial scale and have been a huge drain on our welfare budget.
Sorry if I'm less than enthused about allowing refugees in when our track record of integration has been so patchy and our inability to toss out the bad apples has made us an international joke.
Point is those communities that you say yourself have been successful were greeted with same hostility and excuses as are being trotted out now ie we're full, can't cope, look after our own first, they are different, they won't assimilate, they have a different religion, they are criminals, why can't someone else take them, it's nothing to do with us, long way away, etc etc.
The vile crimes of some Muslims are no more relevant as to should the UK help Syria refugees than the crimes of Jimmy Saville or should we blame and ban all Australians for Rolf Harris?
It's nothing to do with Syria refugees what SOME men of Pakistani origin did. They are scum and should and have been given long prison sentence. Too slowly but again that is nothing to do with Syrian refugees.
I would look at this issue with more compassionate eyes if the granting of asylum and the automatic right to permanent residency could be separated.
Henry I know I'm never going to get you to admit it but previous Muslim immigration hasn't been a spectacular success and I think we need to make it clear to those we let in that they need to sign up to the values of our socially liberal society or their stay here will be a short one.
Why is it so hard for immigration/asylum campaigners to conceed the permanency of the newcomers residency status to bring on board the more sceptical elements within our country?
As the son of a Muslim immigrant, it went alright for me, and the millions of others
As someone who had a long relationship with an Arab girl I've got quite a good handle on the difference between secular and religious Islam and I know which one I want in this country.
As the son of a Muslim immigrant, it went alright for me, and the millions of others
As someone who had a long relationship with an Arab girl I've got quite a good handle on the difference between secular and religious Islam and I know which one I want in this country.
Hey Rothko that was snappier than it was meant to be sorry if it came across poorly.
I would look at this issue with more compassionate eyes if the granting of asylum and the automatic right to permanent residency could be separated.
Henry I know I'm never going to get you to admit it but previous Muslim immigration hasn't been a spectacular success and I think we need to make it clear to those we let in that they need to sign up to the values of our socially liberal society or their stay here will be a short one.
Why is it so hard for immigration/asylum campaigners to conceed the permanency of the newcomers residency status to bring on board the more sceptical elements within our country?
As a life long atheist and believer in individual freedom I greatly dislike the strand of Islam that SOME Muslims in this country had adopted which is intolerant of woman, gays, non-Muslims etc. I don't and have never thought that was acceptable as "part of their culture". It is one of the reasons I have never supported the Labour party and grow more and more distrustful of the "left" despite, like you it seems being "socially liberal"
But as I say that is SOME Muslims. I have no idea what Ba's views are on those issues but he is clearly a Muslim and pray's before games. I assume Kashi is too. Are they a success or not? Does it or should it matter? Do we blame them or distrust them because someone else who follows the same religion comitted crimes? Should we not sign such players? Or should we judge them as individuals?
Many Turkish immigrants have been very successful and integrated well into UK society. They are Muslim.
Many Pakistani, Bangladeshi immigrants have been very successful and have integrated well into UK society. There are a far too large a number, IMHO, who haven't but you are judging a whole group of people buy the actions of a few. And you are then using that as a stick to beat Syrians who are unconnected with it.
"Why is it so hard for immigration/asylum campaigners to conceed the permanency of the newcomers residency status to bring on board the more sceptical elements within our country?"
I've not seen that asked for or debated. I think it would be a good idea as long as it is well thought out and not a 2nd class citizen status that existed, ironically, with the Turkish immigrants to Germany.
Whether it would bring on board the "more sceptical elements within our country?" I doubt as those people would still be saying "we don't want them here".
A worrying development from Bulgaria, but not unpredicted IMO "Five men have been arrested as they attempted to cross the Bulgarian-Macedonian border with decapitation videos and Islamic State propaganda on their phones. The terrorist suspects had been posing as refugees.
Bulgarian authorities near the Gyueshevo border checkpoint detained the five men, aged between 20 and 24, late on Wednesday, Bulgarian broadcaster NOVA TV reported.
The men were stopped by a border guard, who they attempted to bribe with a “wad of dollars.” However, they were searched and Islamic State propaganda, specific Jihadists prayers and decapitation videos were found on their phones."
ISIS have previously made clear their ambition to take over Rome. Infiltrating refugees and taking advantage of the current chaotic conditions would allow them far easier access to the European Capital Cities. Strict migration controls and border security are essential in maintaining the safety of the people. With so many people, many with little or no documentation, no medical records (no idea whether they are HIV positive or are carrying TB), no idea whether they have criminal records, are of good character or bad. How on earth do these people get processed effectively, or is it a case of just let them all in first, then worry about the possible implications later when it may be too late?
My wife and her family left Central America in the 80s because of civil war and the security situation. It saddens me to think what some people on here would think of her.
It's not what people think of her, it's the fear of losing our own communities/identity that drives opposition. I have great empathy with the situation being faced by the refugees but I'm also aware of 12m foreigners already calling my country home, I am of the opinion that that is more than enough.
I say again don't we all think a better solution would be to stop arming the rebels in Syria and thus stopping an entirely avoidable conflict, so that the refugees need not leave their native land in the first place?
So Syria Christians, of which there are many, would be welcome in the UK?
Thing is that similar was said about previous groups such as East African Asians, Vietnamese boat people, Caribbeans, German and Eastern european jews and more recently Eastern Europeans.
None were Muslims.
no one on here has said "throw open the borders" either.
personally I don't think there is one easy solution and it would be much better if Syria could be made safe for all the refugees to return and rebuild their country.
but that will take time, money and a will to confront ISIS and Assad.
In the meantime there is a human crisis to be dealt with.
Those that don't want any "bloody Foreigners" here will find reasons to say "no" regardless of the persons religion, ethnicity or passport. It has always been so.
others will offer support be it financial or by giving of their time or space in their homes. That also has always been so in this country and is one of our proudest traditions.
but long term the government, the EU, the USA, Russia and the Gulf states need to find a workable solution by:
Stop funding ISIS (Saudi)
Stop backing Assad (russia)
Defeating ISIS (all of them)
Securing a free Kurdistan.
Offering financial aid and homes (in well facilitilated camps, in Germany, in the gulf and yes even some on the UK) to refugees until such time as they are no longer needed. Or at least until the next crisis somewhere else.
That was my suggestion a couple of days ago, Henry.
The Olympic Stadium could be fitted out to provide a UK well facilitated camp. Close to rail links too.
And it would appear that tax payers are already earmarked for the heating, maintenance etc.
Wonder how magnanimous Gullivan & Lady B would be to such a suggestion?
i think there are basically two things that define attitudes. how used are people to living alongside people from other cultures, and is there any sense of economic threat. the two things that the Mail plays on relentlessly
Sorry if I misunderstood you before but it sounds like we have very similar issues with the way the 'left' have dealt with issues of gender and sexuality with regards to conservative Islam (no such problems condemning conservative Christianity etc).
I can see you're concerned about painting people with broad brush strokes and as an Irish descended British citizen who was a child during the troubles I sometimes wonder what it must be like for Muslim kids when Islamic bombs go off and there are other atrocities all over the news because it wasn't comfortable for me in the early 80's. That said pretending there aren't seriously problems within large swathes of the communities already here and self evidently within the communities who want to come here from Syria is dangerously naive.
I don't believe that most of the people who have issues with settling the refugees are naked racists and it seems that is where we really diverge. I think a lot of people are worried about importing social and economic problems and would be receptive to offering temporary sanctuary with the chance of settlement if the refugees assimilate and give back to their hosts. I suspect if this idea was proposed (and backed up by law) there would only be a very small rump of genuine racist objectors.
My wife and her family left Central America in the 80s because of civil war and the security situation. It saddens me to think what some people on here would think of her.
It's not what people think of her, it's the fear of losing our own communities/identity that drives opposition. I have great empathy with the situation being faced by the refugees but I'm also aware of 12m foreigners already calling my country home, I am of the opinion that that is more than enough.
I say again don't we all think a better solution would be to stop arming the rebels in Syria and thus stopping an entirely avoidable conflict, so that the refugees need not leave their native land in the first place?
Yes, then create a safe region in Syria for the innocent citizens to move to temporarily. Then send in the troops, air and ground, and obliterate ISIS.
My wife and her family left Central America in the 80s because of civil war and the security situation. It saddens me to think what some people on here would think of her.
In the 80s you could smoke in pubs, stand at football matches and there were only 4 channels on TV. Society moves on.
My wife and her family left Central America in the 80s because of civil war and the security situation. It saddens me to think what some people on here would think of her.
In the 80s you could smoke in pubs, stand at football matches and there were only 4 channels on TV. Society moves on.
My wife and her family left Central America in the 80s because of civil war and the security situation. It saddens me to think what some people on here would think of her.
It's not what people think of her, it's the fear of losing our own communities/identity that drives opposition. I have great empathy with the situation being faced by the refugees but I'm also aware of 12m foreigners already calling my country home, I am of the opinion that that is more than enough.
I say again don't we all think a better solution would be to stop arming the rebels in Syria and thus stopping an entirely avoidable conflict, so that the refugees need not leave their native land in the first place?
Yes, then create a safe region in Syria for the innocent citizens to move to temporarily. Then send in the troops, air and ground, and obliterate ISIS.
But whose troops? the Turks, Jordanians and Saudis all have large well equipped forces. Why don't they?
As you know Santa Claus Irish people support the IRA. They might be a few that are OK but there are a large swathes who do, who don't love this country, support Ireland at Football, go to Irish clubs, send their kids to Irish dancing lessons and give them unpronounceable names. Why do they have to be different? Why can't they be like us?
And they are all Catholics so owe loyalty to the Pope not our Queen. And have 15 kids each. Soon they'll be more of them than there are of us and our culture will be gone.
Most drunks are Irish, everyone knows that, and if you go to an Irish pub you are made to give money to the IRA.
And they work "on the lump" on building sites for less money with no tax. NI or Union so taking jobs from English people. It's a fact, I've seen them waiting outside Kilburn station at dawn waiting for a van to take them to work cash in hand.
Sure some of them are OK and you can have a drink with them but behind your back they are all supporting the 'RA and would be happy to blow you up as look at you.
And they never go home. They choose to be a republic so why come here? We've got over 1m unemployed, the country is in a mess and we're giving jobs to paddies.
Sound familiar? Yeah, I heard all of that and more in the 70s. I hoped we'd all moved on.
As you know Santa Claus Irish people support the IRA. They might be a few that are OK but there are a large swathes who do, who don't love this country, support Ireland at Football, go to Irish clubs, send their kids to Irish dancing lessons and give them unpronounceable names. Why do they have to be different? Why can't they be like us?
And they are all Catholics so owe loyalty to the Pope not our Queen. And have 15 kids each. Soon they'll be more of them than there are of us and our culture will be gone.
Most drunks are Irish, everyone knows that, and if you go to an Irish pub you are made to give money to the IRA.
And they work "on the lump" on building sites for less money with no tax. NI or Union so taking jobs from English people. It's a fact, I've seen them waiting outside Kilburn station at dawn waiting for a van to take them to work cash in hand.
Sure some of them are OK and you can have a drink with them but behind your back they are all supporting the 'RA and would be happy to blow you up as look at you.
And they never go home. They choose to be a republic so why come here? We've got over 1m unemployed, the country is in a mess and we're giving jobs to paddies.
Sound familiar? Yeah, I heard all of that and more in the 70s. I hoped we'd all moved on.
As you know Santa Claus Irish people support the IRA. They might be a few that are OK but there are a large swathes who do, who don't love this country, support Ireland at Football, go to Irish clubs, send their kids to Irish dancing lessons and give them unpronounceable names. Why do they have to be different? Why can't they be like us?
And they are all Catholics so owe loyalty to the Pope not our Queen. And have 15 kids each. Soon they'll be more of them than there are of us and our culture will be gone.
Most drunks are Irish, everyone knows that, and if you go to an Irish pub you are made to give money to the IRA.
And they work "on the lump" on building sites for less money with no tax. NI or Union so taking jobs from English people. It's a fact, I've seen them waiting outside Kilburn station at dawn waiting for a van to take them to work cash in hand.
Sure some of them are OK and you can have a drink with them but behind your back they are all supporting the 'RA and would be happy to blow you up as look at you.
And they never go home. They choose to be a republic so why come here? We've got over 1m unemployed, the country is in a mess and we're giving jobs to paddies.
Sound familiar? Yeah, I heard all of that and more in the 70s. I hoped we'd all moved on.
They only have 12 kids.
Typical lefty response sticky up for them. You and Tony Benn.
My wife and her family left Central America in the 80s because of civil war and the security situation. It saddens me to think what some people on here would think of her.
In the 80s you could smoke in pubs, stand at football matches and there were only 4 channels on TV. Society moves on.
So do you think she should be sent back there now?
As you know Santa Claus Irish people support the IRA. They might be a few that are OK but there are a large swathes who do, who don't love this country, support Ireland at Football, go to Irish clubs, send their kids to Irish dancing lessons and give them unpronounceable names. Why do they have to be different? Why can't they be like us?
And they are all Catholics so owe loyalty to the Pope not our Queen. And have 15 kids each. Soon they'll be more of them than there are of us and our culture will be gone.
Most drunks are Irish, everyone knows that, and if you go to an Irish pub you are made to give money to the IRA.
And they work "on the lump" on building sites for less money with no tax. NI or Union so taking jobs from English people. It's a fact, I've seen them waiting outside Kilburn station at dawn waiting for a van to take them to work cash in hand.
Sure some of them are OK and you can have a drink with them but behind your back they are all supporting the 'RA and would be happy to blow you up as look at you.
And they never go home. They choose to be a republic so why come here? We've got over 1m unemployed, the country is in a mess and we're giving jobs to paddies.
Sound familiar? Yeah, I heard all of that and more in the 70s. I hoped we'd all moved on.
They only have 12 kids.
Typical lefty response sticky up for them. You and Tony Benn.
And they don't send all their kids to Irish dancing lessons ...well, my dad didn't send me anyway.
As you know Santa Claus Irish people support the IRA. They might be a few that are OK but there are a large swathes who do, who don't love this country, support Ireland at Football, go to Irish clubs, send their kids to Irish dancing lessons and give them unpronounceable names. Why do they have to be different? Why can't they be like us?
And they are all Catholics so owe loyalty to the Pope not our Queen. And have 15 kids each. Soon they'll be more of them than there are of us and our culture will be gone.
Most drunks are Irish, everyone knows that, and if you go to an Irish pub you are made to give money to the IRA.
And they work "on the lump" on building sites for less money with no tax. NI or Union so taking jobs from English people. It's a fact, I've seen them waiting outside Kilburn station at dawn waiting for a van to take them to work cash in hand.
Sure some of them are OK and you can have a drink with them but behind your back they are all supporting the 'RA and would be happy to blow you up as look at you.
And they never go home. They choose to be a republic so why come here? We've got over 1m unemployed, the country is in a mess and we're giving jobs to paddies.
Sound familiar? Yeah, I heard all of that and more in the 70s. I hoped we'd all moved on.
More loony left nonsense. Who votes for these people?
This is exactly what the foreign aid budget should be used for. It should be used, as more of a disaster fund, such as this, rather than a fund, for all sorts of needs, that are far from a disaster and somewhat frivolous.
I'm not saying only for disasters, but certainly a substantial sum.
As you know Santa Claus Irish people support the IRA. They might be a few that are OK but there are a large swathes who do, who don't love this country, support Ireland at Football, go to Irish clubs, send their kids to Irish dancing lessons and give them unpronounceable names. Why do they have to be different? Why can't they be like us?
And they are all Catholics so owe loyalty to the Pope not our Queen. And have 15 kids each. Soon they'll be more of them than there are of us and our culture will be gone.
Most drunks are Irish, everyone knows that, and if you go to an Irish pub you are made to give money to the IRA.
And they work "on the lump" on building sites for less money with no tax. NI or Union so taking jobs from English people. It's a fact, I've seen them waiting outside Kilburn station at dawn waiting for a van to take them to work cash in hand.
Sure some of them are OK and you can have a drink with them but behind your back they are all supporting the 'RA and would be happy to blow you up as look at you.
And they never go home. They choose to be a republic so why come here? We've got over 1m unemployed, the country is in a mess and we're giving jobs to paddies.
Sound familiar? Yeah, I heard all of that and more in the 70s. I hoped we'd all moved on.
Er, you've just spectacularly misread the empathetic point I was making. Still I'm sure your little rant made you all warm and fluffy inside.
As you know Santa Claus Irish people support the IRA. They might be a few that are OK but there are a large swathes who do, who don't love this country, support Ireland at Football, go to Irish clubs, send their kids to Irish dancing lessons and give them unpronounceable names. Why do they have to be different? Why can't they be like us?
And they are all Catholics so owe loyalty to the Pope not our Queen. And have 15 kids each. Soon they'll be more of them than there are of us and our culture will be gone.
Most drunks are Irish, everyone knows that, and if you go to an Irish pub you are made to give money to the IRA.
And they work "on the lump" on building sites for less money with no tax. NI or Union so taking jobs from English people. It's a fact, I've seen them waiting outside Kilburn station at dawn waiting for a van to take them to work cash in hand.
Sure some of them are OK and you can have a drink with them but behind your back they are all supporting the 'RA and would be happy to blow you up as look at you.
And they never go home. They choose to be a republic so why come here? We've got over 1m unemployed, the country is in a mess and we're giving jobs to paddies.
Sound familiar? Yeah, I heard all of that and more in the 70s. I hoped we'd all moved on.
Er, you've just spectacularly misread the empathetic point I was making. Still I'm sure your little rant made you all warm and fluffy inside.
Still waiting for you to clarify what you meant when you said immigrants "rape girls on an industrial scale".
As you know Santa Claus Irish people support the IRA. They might be a few that are OK but there are a large swathes who do, who don't love this country, support Ireland at Football, go to Irish clubs, send their kids to Irish dancing lessons and give them unpronounceable names. Why do they have to be different? Why can't they be like us?
And they are all Catholics so owe loyalty to the Pope not our Queen. And have 15 kids each. Soon they'll be more of them than there are of us and our culture will be gone.
Most drunks are Irish, everyone knows that, and if you go to an Irish pub you are made to give money to the IRA.
And they work "on the lump" on building sites for less money with no tax. NI or Union so taking jobs from English people. It's a fact, I've seen them waiting outside Kilburn station at dawn waiting for a van to take them to work cash in hand.
Sure some of them are OK and you can have a drink with them but behind your back they are all supporting the 'RA and would be happy to blow you up as look at you.
And they never go home. They choose to be a republic so why come here? We've got over 1m unemployed, the country is in a mess and we're giving jobs to paddies.
Sound familiar? Yeah, I heard all of that and more in the 70s. I hoped we'd all moved on.
Er, you've just spectacularly misread the empathetic point I was making. Still I'm sure your little rant made you all warm and fluffy inside.
Still waiting for you to clarify what you meant when you said immigrants "rape girls on an industrial scale".
That question was answered pretty concisely by another poster. Bore off.
Comments
You talk about some of the relatively successful immigrant communitied but funnily enough you don't mention some of the ones that have tied up our security services in knots, raped girls on an industrial scale and have been a huge drain on our welfare budget.
Sorry if I'm less than enthused about allowing refugees in when our track record of integration has been so patchy and our inability to toss out the bad apples has made us an international joke.
The vile crimes of some Muslims are no more relevant as to should the UK help Syria refugees than the crimes of Jimmy Saville or should we blame and ban all Australians for Rolf Harris?
It's nothing to do with Syria refugees what SOME men of Pakistani origin did. They are scum and should and have been given long prison sentence. Too slowly but again that is nothing to do with Syrian refugees.
Henry I know I'm never going to get you to admit it but previous Muslim immigration hasn't been a spectacular success and I think we need to make it clear to those we let in that they need to sign up to the values of our socially liberal society or their stay here will be a short one.
Why is it so hard for immigration/asylum campaigners to conceed the permanency of the newcomers residency status to bring on board the more sceptical elements within our country?
But as I say that is SOME Muslims. I have no idea what Ba's views are on those issues but he is clearly a Muslim and pray's before games. I assume Kashi is too. Are they a success or not? Does it or should it matter? Do we blame them or distrust them because someone else who follows the same religion comitted crimes? Should we not sign such players? Or should we judge them as individuals?
Many Turkish immigrants have been very successful and integrated well into UK society. They are Muslim.
Many Pakistani, Bangladeshi immigrants have been very successful and have integrated well into UK society. There are a far too large a number, IMHO, who haven't but you are judging a whole group of people buy the actions of a few. And you are then using that as a stick to beat Syrians who are unconnected with it.
"Why is it so hard for immigration/asylum campaigners to conceed the permanency of the newcomers residency status to bring on board the more sceptical elements within our country?"
I've not seen that asked for or debated. I think it would be a good idea as long as it is well thought out and not a 2nd class citizen status that existed, ironically, with the Turkish immigrants to Germany.
Whether it would bring on board the "more sceptical elements within our country?" I doubt as those people would still be saying "we don't want them here".
"Five men have been arrested as they attempted to cross the Bulgarian-Macedonian border with decapitation videos and Islamic State propaganda on their phones. The terrorist suspects had been posing as refugees.
Bulgarian authorities near the Gyueshevo border checkpoint detained the five men, aged between 20 and 24, late on Wednesday, Bulgarian broadcaster NOVA TV reported.
The men were stopped by a border guard, who they attempted to bribe with a “wad of dollars.” However, they were searched and Islamic State propaganda, specific Jihadists prayers and decapitation videos were found on their phones."
ISIS have previously made clear their ambition to take over Rome. Infiltrating refugees and taking advantage of the current chaotic conditions would allow them far easier access to the European Capital Cities.
Strict migration controls and border security are essential in maintaining the safety of the people. With so many people, many with little or no documentation, no medical records (no idea whether they are HIV positive or are carrying TB), no idea whether they have criminal records, are of good character or bad. How on earth do these people get processed effectively, or is it a case of just let them all in first, then worry about the possible implications later when it may be too late?
I say again don't we all think a better solution would be to stop arming the rebels in Syria and thus stopping an entirely avoidable conflict, so that the refugees need not leave their native land in the first place?
The Olympic Stadium could be fitted out to provide a UK well facilitated camp. Close to rail links too.
And it would appear that tax payers are already earmarked for the heating, maintenance etc.
Wonder how magnanimous Gullivan & Lady B would be to such a suggestion?
I can see you're concerned about painting people with broad brush strokes and as an Irish descended British citizen who was a child during the troubles I sometimes wonder what it must be like for Muslim kids when Islamic bombs go off and there are other atrocities all over the news because it wasn't comfortable for me in the early 80's. That said pretending there aren't seriously problems within large swathes of the communities already here and self evidently within the communities who want to come here from Syria is dangerously naive.
I don't believe that most of the people who have issues with settling the refugees are naked racists and it seems that is where we really diverge. I think a lot of people are worried about importing social and economic problems and would be receptive to offering temporary sanctuary with the chance of settlement if the refugees assimilate and give back to their hosts. I suspect if this idea was proposed (and backed up by law) there would only be a very small rump of genuine racist objectors.
Society moves on.
And they are all Catholics so owe loyalty to the Pope not our Queen. And have 15 kids each. Soon they'll be more of them than there are of us and our culture will be gone.
Most drunks are Irish, everyone knows that, and if you go to an Irish pub you are made to give money to the IRA.
And they work "on the lump" on building sites for less money with no tax. NI or Union so taking jobs from English people. It's a fact, I've seen them waiting outside Kilburn station at dawn waiting for a van to take them to work cash in hand.
Sure some of them are OK and you can have a drink with them but behind your back they are all supporting the 'RA and would be happy to blow you up as look at you.
And they never go home. They choose to be a republic so why come here? We've got over 1m unemployed, the country is in a mess and we're giving jobs to paddies.
Sound familiar? Yeah, I heard all of that and more in the 70s. I hoped we'd all moved on.
So do you think she should be sent back there now?
I'm not saying only for disasters, but certainly a substantial sum.