You keep peddling the "everyone has been manipulated" and "protest vote" cards. It might actually, miraculously, be taken seriously if enough people are ignorant and arrogant enough to believe that people haven't thought for themselves.
UKIP have taken up issues raised by the electorate that the three stale mainstream parties have ignored through fear.
If you've got any issues, take them up with those that have ignored public opinion as opposed to those that have, at last, broken the back of taboo subjects in this country.
Innit.
Right so accuse me of doing something I haven't and when asked to explain what you mean you refuse?
On your point about mainstream parties ignoring issues through fear, it is precisely the sort of fear UKIP are (incorrectly) peddling that has caused a lot of this. UKIPs policies breakdown simply to: 1. We want out of the EU as it costs us billions. Whilst true that we pay billions towards it there is no mention of the benefits we have received and continue to receive in exchange for our enrolment and contributions. 2. We want out of the EU as there are lots of immigrants coming over. A valid point, but to ignore all the benefits that immigrants bring is ridiculously blinkered. We have benefited from EU migrants and at a time we desperately needed them. Is it sustainable long term? Probably not but to just close the border completely to lower skilled EU migrants does not seem to be the answer. Besides we allow more non EU migrants in on a points based system anyway, yet the discussion is always around EU migrants.
That's about it as far as their policies go. Oh yeah the NHS, apparently Nigel thinks we should privatise it but then realised that was a mistake and so he doesn't really mean that at all.
Now on their two points, what percentage of the population actually think those two are the most important factors facing their lives at the moment? Personally it wouldn't be in my top 5, probably not even in my top 10. Yet, UKIP have manipulated enough people into believing these are two of the most important factors facing Britain today, they really aren't and to believe so is just wrong.
I haven't refused, just decided it to be counterproductive to argue against an immovable object such as the 'manipulation' tag banded about by those that disagree with UKIP.
There you go again, peddling opinion as fact re what issues people see as being important. Your top 5 may not be the same as somebody else's but that doesn't mean their top 5 is wrong. This goes full circle to the whole arrogance thing.
It's those sort of backhanded insults that you throw around that drive people to vote for the likes of UKIP......oh, and the fact that politics in this country is stale, center leaning and beige.
You keep peddling the "everyone has been manipulated" and "protest vote" cards. It might actually, miraculously, be taken seriously if enough people are ignorant and arrogant enough to believe that people haven't thought for themselves.
UKIP have taken up issues raised by the electorate that the three stale mainstream parties have ignored through fear.
If you've got any issues, take them up with those that have ignored public opinion as opposed to those that have, at last, broken the back of taboo subjects in this country.
Innit.
Right so accuse me of doing something I haven't and when asked to explain what you mean you refuse?
On your point about mainstream parties ignoring issues through fear, it is precisely the sort of fear UKIP are (incorrectly) peddling that has caused a lot of this. UKIPs policies breakdown simply to: 1. We want out of the EU as it costs us billions. Whilst true that we pay billions towards it there is no mention of the benefits we have received and continue to receive in exchange for our enrolment and contributions. 2. We want out of the EU as there are lots of immigrants coming over. A valid point, but to ignore all the benefits that immigrants bring is ridiculously blinkered. We have benefited from EU migrants and at a time we desperately needed them. Is it sustainable long term? Probably not but to just close the border completely to lower skilled EU migrants does not seem to be the answer. Besides we allow more non EU migrants in on a points based system anyway, yet the discussion is always around EU migrants.
That's about it as far as their policies go. Oh yeah the NHS, apparently Nigel thinks we should privatise it but then realised that was a mistake and so he doesn't really mean that at all.
Now on their two points, what percentage of the population actually think those two are the most important factors facing their lives at the moment? Personally it wouldn't be in my top 5, probably not even in my top 10. Yet, UKIP have manipulated enough people into believing these are two of the most important factors facing Britain today, they really aren't and to believe so is just wrong.
I haven't refused, just decided it to be counterproductive to argue against a immovable object such as the 'manipulation' tag banded about by those that disagree with UKIP.
There you go again, peddling opinion as fact re what issues people see as being important. Your top 5 may not be the same as somebody else's but that doesn't mean their top 5 is wrong. This goes full circle to the whole arrogance thing.
It's those sort of backhanded insults that you throw around that drive people to vote for the likes of UKIP......oh, and the fact that politics in this country is stale, center leaning and beige.
I'm not peddling opinion as fact, I questioned how many would have it as a top 2 and then gave my own opinion on them.
Labours in thrall to the unions, the Tories are the mouthpiece of multinationals with budgets as big as a country and UKIP want some of the pie. What a f*****ng mess.
and then nu labour were backed by unions and did everything in their power to move self employed people into being an employee. Certainly helping out the working man and not the big businesses there (!!)
basically all parties that come to the table saying they're different are not. UKIP are just like the tories and the greens are old school labour with a coat of green paint.
...and took us into a hugely expensive (in money and lives) immoral and illegal war thus alienating what remained of both the "intellectual" left and "natural" left thus leaving themselves with nowhere to go but into the territory of the right, and all after Thatcher convinced everyone what a great idea it would be to sell off all of the social housing in the country, dangling the promise of big bucks whilst creaming the really big bucks for the neocons and destroying the manufacturing base whilst claiming it as the unions what done it.
No-one comes out of it clean. I think we agree on that, at least.
the right claim the left made it far worse than it was ever intended to be and the left claim they were problems they were given that they couldn't possible deal with in 13 years. Amongst all this, no one's actually done anything to change the problems.
I'm no UKIP'er but I'll be dammed if I try and chastise and rubbish them after the last 50 years of government by the usual suspects.
Believing that those are the most important factors facing the country is wrong.
Oh dear.
In your opinion, yes. However, opinions are like *rseholes in so much as everyone has got one.
They just aren't though. Are they more important than the NHS, housing or the economy?
In some people's opinion, yes.
But that's my point, it's due to UKIPs manipulation that there are more people now who believe it than before.
No, not at all.
It 'might' or 'may' be as a result of UKIP just as much as it 'might' or 'may' be as a result of the tide of change sweeping the nation with regards to being able to openly discuss it without fear of having a tag thrown at you unjustly.
I'm no UKIP'er but I'll be dammed if I try and chastise and rubbish them after the last 50 years of government by the usual suspects.
Believing that those are the most important factors facing the country is wrong.
Oh dear.
In your opinion, yes. However, opinions are like *rseholes in so much as everyone has got one.
They just aren't though. Are they more important than the NHS, housing or the economy?
In some people's opinion, yes.
But that's my point, it's due to UKIPs manipulation that there are more people now who believe it than before.
No, not at all.
It 'might' or 'may' be as a result of UKIP just as much as it 'might' or 'may' be as a result of the tide of change sweeping the nation with regards to being able to openly discuss it without fear of having a tag thrown at you unjustly.
That argument is as tiresome as brandishing the "they're all the same" at politicians.
housing pressured by mass immigration NHS pressured by mass immigration
but not a central issue in any argument---------------------------yep that noise is me laughing
please please please keep on saying its got nothing to do with it and please please please keep the condesending drivel coming after all its whats breaking Labour and i love it
I'm no UKIP'er but I'll be dammed if I try and chastise and rubbish them after the last 50 years of government by the usual suspects.
Believing that those are the most important factors facing the country is wrong.
Oh dear.
In your opinion, yes. However, opinions are like *rseholes in so much as everyone has got one.
They just aren't though. Are they more important than the NHS, housing or the economy?
In some people's opinion, yes.
But that's my point, it's due to UKIPs manipulation that there are more people now who believe it than before.
No, not at all.
It 'might' or 'may' be as a result of UKIP just as much as it 'might' or 'may' be as a result of the tide of change sweeping the nation with regards to being able to openly discuss it without fear of having a tag thrown at you unjustly.
That argument is as tiresome as brandishing the "they're all the same" at politicians.
Of course all politicians aren't the same and I haven't said they are (if that's what you were alluding to). I said that the three main stream parties are center leaning and beige.
They are, however, very similar. UKIP may well turn out to be no different but I see no issue with them having a shot at messing up what the Tories and Labour have continually messed up over the years.
whatever your economic view on mass immigration is, the fact is it can cause considerable social tension amongst communities. Saying you think we should have more mass immigration is akin to saying "we should pay bankers more and give them more freedom and drop taxes on the wealthy completely. It means money will come into the country, what's wrong with that?" is ignoring a huge social issue.
You keep peddling the "everyone has been manipulated" and "protest vote" cards. It might actually, miraculously, be taken seriously if enough people are ignorant and arrogant enough to believe that people haven't thought for themselves.
UKIP have taken up issues raised by the electorate that the three stale mainstream parties have ignored through fear.
If you've got any issues, take them up with those that have ignored public opinion as opposed to those that have, at last, broken the back of taboo subjects in this country.
Innit.
Right so accuse me of doing something I haven't and when asked to explain what you mean you refuse?
On your point about mainstream parties ignoring issues through fear, it is precisely the sort of fear UKIP are (incorrectly) peddling that has caused a lot of this. UKIPs policies breakdown simply to: 1. We want out of the EU as it costs us billions. Whilst true that we pay billions towards it there is no mention of the benefits we have received and continue to receive in exchange for our enrolment and contributions. 2. We want out of the EU as there are lots of immigrants coming over. A valid point, but to ignore all the benefits that immigrants bring is ridiculously blinkered. We have benefited from EU migrants and at a time we desperately needed them. Is it sustainable long term? Probably not but to just close the border completely to lower skilled EU migrants does not seem to be the answer. Besides we allow more non EU migrants in on a points based system anyway, yet the discussion is always around EU migrants.
That's about it as far as their policies go. Oh yeah the NHS, apparently Nigel thinks we should privatise it but then realised that was a mistake and so he doesn't really mean that at all.
Now on their two points, what percentage of the population actually think those two are the most important factors facing their lives at the moment? Personally it wouldn't be in my top 5, probably not even in my top 10. Yet, UKIP have manipulated enough people into believing these are two of the most important factors facing Britain today, they really aren't and to believe so is just wrong.
I haven't refused, just decided it to be counterproductive to argue against an immovable object such as the 'manipulation' tag banded about by those that disagree with UKIP.
There you go again, peddling opinion as fact re what issues people see as being important. Your top 5 may not be the same as somebody else's but that doesn't mean their top 5 is wrong. This goes full circle to the whole arrogance thing.
It's those sort of backhanded insults that you throw around that drive people to vote for the likes of UKIP......oh, and the fact that politics in this country is stale, center leaning and beige.
It's fantastic to see the "big three" taking a beating in these by elections, but losing them to UKIP taints it heavily for me.
It's such a shame that people aren't aware of other alternatives such as the Green Party and others that I'll be looking into over the coming months and that I hope to give my vote to in May.
Why is it that people are unaware of these and think UKIP is the only alternative? They are the new media darlings.
It's fantastic to see the "big three" taking a beating in these by elections, but losing them to UKIP taints it heavily for me.
It's such a shame that people aren't aware of other alternatives such as the Green Party and others that I'll be looking into over the coming months and that I hope to give my vote to in May.
Why is it that people are unaware of these and think UKIP is the only alternative? They are the new media darlings.
ukip create controversy, which sells papers. This is why they're the media darlings.
whatever your economic view on mass immigration is, the fact is it can course considerable social tension amongst communities. Saying you think we should have more immigration is akin to saying "we should pay bankers more and give them more freedom and drop taxes on the wealthy completely. It means money will come into the country, what's wrong with that?" is ignoring a huge social issue.
But how much of it is down to the natives that simply don't want them there? I'm not saying there aren't problems with immigration, there are but people need to understand it brings benefits with it. To simply cut off immigration would cause more harm than good.
And for the record I'm not saying I want more immigration but saying that immigration is a bad thing is a blinkered view. So blinkered in fact it ignores the whole history of Britain.
whatever your economic view on mass immigration is, the fact is it can course considerable social tension amongst communities. Saying you think we should have more immigration is akin to saying "we should pay bankers more and give them more freedom and drop taxes on the wealthy completely. It means money will come into the country, what's wrong with that?" is ignoring a huge social issue.
But how much of it is down to the natives that simply don't want them there? I'm not saying there aren't problems with immigration, there are but people need to understand it brings benefits with it. To simply cut off immigration would cause more harm than good.
And for the record I'm not saying I want more immigration but saying that immigration is a bad thing is a blinkered view. So blinkered in fact it ignores the whole history of Britain.
As far as I am aware UKIP has never said immigration is a bad thing.
It may well have said words to the effect that UNCONTROLLED immigration is a bad thing but that is a different issue.
whatever your economic view on mass immigration is, the fact is it can course considerable social tension amongst communities. Saying you think we should have more immigration is akin to saying "we should pay bankers more and give them more freedom and drop taxes on the wealthy completely. It means money will come into the country, what's wrong with that?" is ignoring a huge social issue.
But how much of it is down to the natives that simply don't want them there? I'm not saying there aren't problems with immigration, there are but people need to understand it brings benefits with it. To simply cut off immigration would cause more harm than good.
And for the record I'm not saying I want more immigration but saying that immigration is a bad thing is a blinkered view. So blinkered in fact it ignores the whole history of Britain.
i edited my post to say "more mass immigration" which is what i actually meant. But i agree, cutting off immigration completely is bad news. However a more controlled method is far more preferable than mass immigration.
Because we live in a democratic society, we do have to listen to and sometimes implement the will of the people - even if in your view, it's ignorant.
her politics are putrid but your misogyny is no better
I'll take that as a compliment. She's absolutely abhorrent. I've had the misfortune to cross paths with her and I'd say exactly the same to her face as what I wrote on here.
She was screaming 'paedo' at passers by down Rochester not long ago. Calling her a pig in knickers is tame by comparison
The political landscape is changing and the traditional parties have been slow to react. There was some evidence in the Scottish referendum that more people were inspired to vote/campaign on specific issues that directly affected them.
The UK is under strain from population growth and jobs/housing/NHS/transport infrasctructure are all directly affected and this is visible to folk in their daily lives.
.........and this is still the case. The voters don't care about UKIP's policy on greenhouse gasses, women bishops and gay marriage - they have voted (and will in May) on the issues that directly affect them each day. e.g. Housing/NHS/transport etc.
The main parties don't get it at all.
Cameron thinks he can make everyone swoon with some economic data every now and then, but the punters have their own "economic data" to go on - and if they don't feel more wealthy, then it doesn't matter what numbers Dave throws at them.
Ed thinks he will get the gig by just slagging off the coalition, but without saying anything important.
Nick could say anything he likes - nobody is listening.
So it looks like a hung Parliament may be a real possibility.
Ladbrokes think the next Parliament will look like this:
UKIP = 7 SNP = 22 Lib = 27 Con = 280 Lab = 287 Others = 20 approx
The political landscape is changing and the traditional parties have been slow to react. There was some evidence in the Scottish referendum that more people were inspired to vote/campaign on specific issues that directly affected them.
The UK is under strain from population growth and jobs/housing/NHS/transport infrasctructure are all directly affected and this is visible to folk in their daily lives.
.........and this is still the case. The voters don't care about UKIP's policy on greenhouse gasses, women bishops and gay marriage - they have voted (and will in May) on the issues that directly affect them each day. e.g. Housing/NHS/transport etc.
The main parties don't get it at all.
Cameron thinks he can make everyone swoon with some economic data every now and then, but the punters have their own "economic data" to go on - and if they don't feel more wealthy, then it doesn't matter what numbers Dave throws at them.
Ed thinks he will get the gig by just slagging off the coalition, but without saying anything important.
Nick could say anything he likes - nobody is listening.
So it looks like a hung Parliament may be a real possibility.
Ladbrokes think the next Parliament will look like this:
UKIP = 7 SNP = 22 Lib = 27 Con = 280 Lab = 287 Others = 20 approx
mmm that's going to be fun ...just playing with figures (and I am aware that the below is fairly unlikely, but its not impossible)
whatever your economic view on mass immigration is, the fact is it can course considerable social tension amongst communities. Saying you think we should have more immigration is akin to saying "we should pay bankers more and give them more freedom and drop taxes on the wealthy completely. It means money will come into the country, what's wrong with that?" is ignoring a huge social issue.
But how much of it is down to the natives that simply don't want them there? I'm not saying there aren't problems with immigration, there are but people need to understand it brings benefits with it. To simply cut off immigration would cause more harm than good.
And for the record I'm not saying I want more immigration but saying that immigration is a bad thing is a blinkered view. So blinkered in fact it ignores the whole history of Britain.
As far as I am aware UKIP has never said immigration is a bad thing.
It may well have said words to the effect that UNCONTROLLED immigration is a bad thing but that is a different issue.
Another point I have raised before is, what is controlled migration? We already control migration from outside the EU yet more enter from those countries each year than all the uncontrolled migrants from the EU.
Does it mean we don't let in unskilled workers? I was always of the opinion that we always need unskilled workers in the labour pool and they are quite vital to the economy. Who will do the jobs that British workers refuse to do?
Does it mean we do not let students in? They technically won't be contributing that much to the economy so do we block them?
No one has given a clear definition of what this policy would look like.
Because we live in a democratic society, we do have to listen to and sometimes implement the will of the people - even if in your view, it's ignorant.
I completely agree with democracy and free speech. That isn't my issue. My issue that opinions based on false facts and manipulation are wrong.
This notion that you cannot say someone's opinion is wrong is nonsense. If I were to say "in my opinion Burnley will win the Premier League this year." well that's fine to say and it would be an opinion, but it would still be wrong. I'm not saying, people aren't allowed to have these opinions or that they aren't allowed to express them merely that what they are expressing is incorrect.
UKIP has its faults but it has given a well deserved kicking to those smug, patronising gits in the traditional main three parties who need reminding that they are supposed to represent the ordinary people of this country rather than follow their own agendas formulated in their own political bubble regardless of public opinion.
I very much hope this (and Clacton) provide the catalyst for a movement to engage ordinary people in politics and remove smug complacency and condescension as epitomised by so many dressed in blue, red and orange rosettes.
A so called minority party has now won two seats under first past the post despite having the opposition of the political mainstream and media thrown at it.
Long may it continue.
This! Democracy at its finest with lots of attention and no damage from the outcome. We have all made one step further on the journey and UKIP are one step closer to imploding! What? Wtf!!!
The candidate is openly talking about repatriating immigrants then changing his mind via UKIP leadership. As UKIP attain more and more air time their representatives will make more and more contradictory statements to reveal the underlying philosophy or in fact philosophies of their party. Do they stand for repatriating people to represent 24% of UK population who want to close off immigration completely and "send people back"... Or not? Meaning they are identical to the conservatives making noise but no commitment.
By the way this means that a large majority or 76% don't agree with ending immigration and repatriating people.
At the same time a report emerged stating that the typical working wage went up by £1 not allowing for inflation - so down again as it has been every year since this government took office...down to the lowest level since the year 2000.
Where is the animated dialogue around raising opportunities and living standards?
Put in this context one can understand Milibands anger at the idiot on twitter.
The general election next year will have many twists and turns. But I would hope the centre left parties will appeal to growth, jobs and cost of living arguments plus of course the NHS rather than follow UKIP and the tories into the gutter.
Don't get me wrong, there needs to be a debate about immigration just like there was a discussion on here about Ched Evans.
And the EU needs to raise it's game. As do those that support an integrated Europe.
But I would hope that those seeking power by pursuing isolationist policies and blaming immigrants are shown up for what they are.
Once again I'm confused still as to whether UKIP are all talk and no action! Or do they seriously believe in the logical conclusion of their populist rhetoric. Some think the media are against them but I thank the media for highlighting the critical fault lines in this far right nonsense.
Comments
There you go again, peddling opinion as fact re what issues people see as being important. Your top 5 may not be the same as somebody else's but that doesn't mean their top 5 is wrong. This goes full circle to the whole arrogance thing.
It's those sort of backhanded insults that you throw around that drive people to vote for the likes of UKIP......oh, and the fact that politics in this country is stale, center leaning and beige.
That reads as a statement, not opinion, though.
I'm no UKIP'er but I'll be dammed if I try and chastise and rubbish them after the last 50 years of government by the usual suspects.
In your opinion, yes. However, opinions are like *rseholes in so much as everyone has got one.
That doesn't mean my opinion or your opinion is right and that theirs is wrong.
It 'might' or 'may' be as a result of UKIP just as much as it 'might' or 'may' be as a result of the tide of change sweeping the nation with regards to being able to openly discuss it without fear of having a tag thrown at you unjustly.
NHS pressured by mass immigration
but not a central issue in any argument---------------------------yep that noise is me laughing
please please please keep on saying its got nothing to do with it and please please please keep the condesending drivel coming after all its whats breaking Labour and i love it
They are, however, very similar. UKIP may well turn out to be no different but I see no issue with them having a shot at messing up what the Tories and Labour have continually messed up over the years.
But yeah lets keep on with anecdotal evidence, it's worked for UKIP so I guess it must be true.
It's such a shame that people aren't aware of other alternatives such as the Green Party and others that I'll be looking into over the coming months and that I hope to give my vote to in May.
Why is it that people are unaware of these and think UKIP is the only alternative? They are the new media darlings.
And for the record I'm not saying I want more immigration but saying that immigration is a bad thing is a blinkered view. So blinkered in fact it ignores the whole history of Britain.
It may well have said words to the effect that UNCONTROLLED immigration is a bad thing but that is a different issue.
Because we live in a democratic society, we do have to listen to and sometimes implement the will of the people - even if in your view, it's ignorant.
She was screaming 'paedo' at passers by down Rochester not long ago. Calling her a pig in knickers is tame by comparison
The political landscape is changing and the traditional parties have been slow to react. There was some evidence in the Scottish referendum that more people were inspired to vote/campaign on specific issues that directly affected them.
The UK is under strain from population growth and jobs/housing/NHS/transport infrasctructure are all directly affected and this is visible to folk in their daily lives.
.........and this is still the case. The voters don't care about UKIP's policy on greenhouse gasses, women bishops and gay marriage - they have voted (and will in May) on the issues that directly affect them each day.
e.g. Housing/NHS/transport etc.
The main parties don't get it at all.
Cameron thinks he can make everyone swoon with some economic data every now and then, but the punters have their own "economic data" to go on - and if they don't feel more wealthy, then it doesn't matter what numbers Dave throws at them.
Ed thinks he will get the gig by just slagging off the coalition, but without saying anything important.
Nick could say anything he likes - nobody is listening.
So it looks like a hung Parliament may be a real possibility.
Ladbrokes think the next Parliament will look like this:
UKIP = 7
SNP = 22
Lib = 27
Con = 280
Lab = 287
Others = 20 approx
Lab + SNP = 309
Con + Lib = 307
Does it mean we don't let in unskilled workers? I was always of the opinion that we always need unskilled workers in the labour pool and they are quite vital to the economy. Who will do the jobs that British workers refuse to do?
Does it mean we do not let students in? They technically won't be contributing that much to the economy so do we block them?
No one has given a clear definition of what this policy would look like.
This notion that you cannot say someone's opinion is wrong is nonsense. If I were to say "in my opinion Burnley will win the Premier League this year." well that's fine to say and it would be an opinion, but it would still be wrong. I'm not saying, people aren't allowed to have these opinions or that they aren't allowed to express them merely that what they are expressing is incorrect.
Democracy at its finest with lots of attention and no damage from the outcome.
We have all made one step further on the journey and UKIP are one step closer to imploding!
What?
Wtf!!!
The candidate is openly talking about repatriating immigrants then changing his mind via UKIP leadership. As UKIP attain more and more air time their representatives will make more and more contradictory statements to reveal the underlying philosophy or in fact philosophies of their party. Do they stand for repatriating people to represent 24% of UK population who want to close off immigration completely and "send people back"... Or not? Meaning they are identical to the conservatives making noise but no commitment.
By the way this means that a large majority or 76% don't agree with ending immigration and repatriating people.
At the same time a report emerged stating that the typical working wage went up by £1 not allowing for inflation - so down again as it has been every year since this government took office...down to the lowest level since the year 2000.
Where is the animated dialogue around raising opportunities and living standards?
Put in this context one can understand Milibands anger at the idiot on twitter.
The general election next year will have many twists and turns. But I would hope the centre left parties will appeal to growth, jobs and cost of living arguments plus of course the NHS rather than follow UKIP and the tories into the gutter.
Don't get me wrong, there needs to be a debate about immigration just like there was a discussion on here about Ched Evans.
And the EU needs to raise it's game. As do those that support an integrated Europe.
But I would hope that those seeking power by pursuing isolationist policies and blaming immigrants are shown up for what they are.
Once again I'm confused still as to whether UKIP are all talk and no action! Or do they seriously believe in the logical conclusion of their populist rhetoric. Some think the media are against them but I thank the media for highlighting the critical fault lines in this far right nonsense.