There you go, 4 opinions straight away including Shirty5 and Red Robin.
I respect SM's opinion. I am feeling a bit more laid back about it. It does not matter to me so much who is asking the questions, but as long as the questions get asked. I am presuming that the majority of the Supporter Group are members of the Supporters Trust ?
SM makes some good points though for more Trust involvement. That's why its good for Trust members such as Stone Muse to speak out and influence the Trust direction. I guess The Supporters Group can speak for themselves but I don't believe the aim was not to supplant or replace the Trust but get some answers. There was an open call for people to get involved from CL, Trust, Bloggers, ITTV and Not606.
The thing is that RD will hopefully want to engage with supporters / customers, at Season Ticket renewal time, to reassure and bring Charlton Athletic Supporters with the project. The plans for the Sparrows Lane upgrade is great news. At this stage is not about opposing RD it is about engaging with him and KM to try and get everyone on the same page and unity within the club.
in a bit shocked at the criticisms of CAST and their lack of action
that rather harsh on people who give their time and energy for the cause. ACV was a job well done ... Talented as the guys are do u expect them to score the winner whilst bringing u the half time beer, smoking and dodging pot holes?
the main aim of the first year of any such organisation must be to grow membership and raise awareness of the cause. i think they have done this brilliantly in an inclusive Manner. i see no egos at play from the trust board
i hope a complimentary way of utilising all the different talents and resources can be found between the various groups. leave the egos at the door and remember we are all on the same side
edit. .this isnt directed at the post aabove which i Mostly agree with
I think you''ll find that the only perceived criticism is from those who have set up a separate supporters group - who by their statement, obviously feel that the Trust isn't up to the task .
The thing is that RD will hopefully want to engage with supporters / customers, at Season Ticket renewal time.......
Very good point. I propose we form a new group to represent the Fans, drawn only from those who have already renewed their season tickets for next season. Duchatelet might want to listen to them.
Divide and rule is an oft used phrase by despots, who then implement a strategy to achieve this end, however in this case, we hand it on a plate. The Trust, those opposed to the Trust (As per ITTV) and the new supporters group. Rolly will be pleased that he has not had to do anything to achieve this.
His next move would be to explicitly say that he will only talk with the Trust as they are the only elected representative fans body and that would be a legitimate stance for him to take.
This is how I see it but sure I will be put right.
A while ago I was employed by CAFC after I did amazing work to help get club back to the valley. The owners listened to me and we made fantastic progress on and off the pitch, with the club employing more influential supporters, the owners changed and did not not listen to me anymore and did not like what I had to say. I was right and the club started to struggle and sack those influential supporters and our say in the club was all but over. In the meantime other supporters created a "Supporter's Trust" this was not the first time this had been tried but this time unlike before it started to take off and started to gain momentum to my surprise. Oh shit I am no longer employed by the team I love and didn't start or get involved in the trust as I thought it would fail, and when new owners come in I thought they were going to re-employ us all again, I know, I will get all the old lot together and show everyone yet again how the supporters group should work with me at the forefront and get a grip on the club I love again and regain some kudos.
What a nasty bunch we're in danger of becoming. I feel like banging heads together, egos and power struggles are not needed. CAFC comes first as far as I'm concerned. I don't know ( and neither do I want to know) but ex directors and journos may not want to be part of/ do not feel that they are able to be linked with the Trust. Whatever, sort it out between you behind the scenes, this spat is undignified, unseemly and a million light years away from the manner in which Chrissy would have conducted himself. And no, I am not yet ready to move on, at least not until I know where we're blooming well going. I don't bloody care who finds that out, just get on with it please!
I think it was good that Trust board members were invited so they can inform others about this development. But they are putting their names down in a personal capacity not representing the Trust as there is no mandate. As people state there is no clear definition of aims and objectives, governance or plan at this stage. So nothing concrete to discuss and nothing to undermine the Trust. And most certainly nothing to sign up to just yet
What a nasty bunch we're in danger of becoming. I feel like banging heads together, egos and power struggles are not needed. CAFC comes first as far as I'm concerned. I don't know ( and neither do I want to know) but ex directors and journos may not want to be part of/ do not feel that they are able to be linked with the Trust. Whatever, sort it out between you behind the scenes, this spat is undignified, unseemly and a million light years away from the manner in which Chrissy would have conducted himself. And no, I am not yet ready to move on, at least not until I know where we're blooming well going. I don't bloody care who finds that out, just get on with it please!
S.A. is correct . Please no factions, we're all in this together, (where have I heard that before)?
Ps the Trust have secured a meeting with Katrien Miere so we need to formulate an approach - I urge all members of the Trust to support its aims and vision which have been quoted on here by several posters. We have a meeting coming up and a stall at the game on Tuesday. Basically we are open to fans and there are ways for individuals to help with their time, ideas and money! We need to get this right and I appeal to anyone within this new (old) grouping to support the Trust in its mission. Apologies if I am not using diplomatic terms but running the Trust takes time and this episode has just shown the need for the Trust to make it clear that we are addressing the issues. Incidentally if anyone is that passionate and has the time to help steer this then I believe there is one vacancy on the Trust board - so feel free to contribute
I had many misgivings about the Trust from the start and was not convinced that they would have any influence. Based on the arguments that they provided about trusts at other clubs, I decided to join ... still not convinced but at least it gave us a collective voice.
And they have had some successes for which they should rightly be proud. However, their prime argument that convinced me to join was that if we ever hit a major issue that could dramatically affect the club and the fans, then they would be able to lead from the front.
As I have said many times, I do not believe that such an issue faces us, however a number of prominent supporters have a contrary view and believe that there may be an issue ... not that anyone has actually come out and told us exactly what that issue is.
And because there is an 'issue' a new supporters group has been established to tackle this 'issue'. So why did I bother joining the Trust? This can only undermine you ... the story being told, quite clearly, is that for one reason or another, you are not up to it or are unable to lead it. If that is the case, then I have completely misunderstood your potential effectiveness.
The Trust do not appear to agree that this move has undermined them ... well, it has certainly undermined my own support of the Trust ... as I said, I was wary to begin with about joining, but your arguments about the way trusts were active at other clubs 'in danger' swayed me. No longer ... it is doubtful I will renew my membership.
If it emerges that there is an 'issue ... although I am very doubtful about this ... I will support the new group as it would appear that they will be the driving force.
If there is not an issue ... which is my stance ... then the new group is not required.
However this goes, my confidence in the Trust is now very low.
Sorry to hear that is your view stonemuse, but I feel that the trust should be talking to other groups, and listening to the opinion of fan's. I was invited to attend, as I have done so on the Fan's Forum....... should I also not attend this 'unelected body'. Come to think of it should I be attending the Valley Gold meetings, or visiting the Eltham supporters branch, or NWK, Bromley, or East Kent. Quite how do 'Iiase' with supporters, just stand around the trust table, on the approval of CAFC.? . By the way I did not sign a bit of paper, but I allowed my name to be included, should I have not allowed my attendance to be recorded?. How honest is that....... If I take the decision to attend, I will take the flak that comes with that. But I stand by my decision to attend, and unless the executive of the board decide otherwise I intend to continue speaking to fan's. I am not into 'elite' groups or 'supergroups'. And for the record my view is no more important that any other fan's. I hope you reconsider your position, and as I earlier posted more than happy to discuss this down at the Valley on the stall, or one of the branch meetings. Hope to catch you or anyone else down at the stall then later this week then.
Ken you were right to attend as I posted earlier - the Trust is newish and fully aware it does not represent all fans - so it needs a liaison officer like yourself to stay in touch. This new "group" has no stated aims nor governance and I hope that they can support the Trust in its stated aims.
Rick started the thread and has made 4 or 5 further posts. The early comments on the thread were fairly positive but as the discussion has developed I think I would be fair in saying that the initiative has on balance been poorly received on CL - a straw poll now (for whatever worth straw polls have) would I suspect show the majority to not be in favour of this group acting in addition to/outside the Trust.
The cynic in me would say that Rick and the other signatories believed this initiative would summon up memories of past glories and would receive overwhelming support. It hasn't.
I would welcome Rick or others associated with the new group responding to questions raised over the last half a dozen pages and perhaps to also indicate if they are either surprised or had anticipated the negativity. An idea of what action the group might consider (other than calling a public meeting!) if RD (as I suspect he will) either ignores or openly dismisses the challenge laid down.
Ken you were right to attend as I posted earlier - the Trust is newish and fully aware it does not represent all fans - so it needs a liaison officer like yourself to stay in touch. This new "group" has no stated aims nor governance and I hope that they can support the Trust in its stated aims.
Thank you Ken, that is a brilliant example of the message I want to hear. Meet up and work together. You all have different skills and areas of excellence. Barnie is a communicator, so get talking.
I would welcome Rick or others associated with the new group responding to questions raised over the last half a dozen pages and perhaps to also indicate if they are either surprised or had anticipated the negativity.
I had many misgivings about the Trust from the start and was not convinced that they would have any influence. Based on the arguments that they provided about trusts at other clubs, I decided to join ... still not convinced but at least it gave us a collective voice.
And they have had some successes for which they should rightly be proud. However, their prime argument that convinced me to join was that if we ever hit a major issue that could dramatically affect the club and the fans, then they would be able to lead from the front.
As I have said many times, I do not believe that such an issue faces us, however a number of prominent supporters have a contrary view and believe that there may be an issue ... not that anyone has actually come out and told us exactly what that issue is.
And because there is an 'issue' a new supporters group has been established to tackle this 'issue'. So why did I bother joining the Trust? This can only undermine you ... the story being told, quite clearly, is that for one reason or another, you are not up to it or are unable to lead it. If that is the case, then I have completely misunderstood your potential effectiveness.
The Trust do not appear to agree that this move has undermined them ... well, it has certainly undermined my own support of the Trust ... as I said, I was wary to begin with about joining, but your arguments about the way trusts were active at other clubs 'in danger' swayed me. No longer ... it is doubtful I will renew my membership.
If it emerges that there is an 'issue ... although I am very doubtful about this ... I will support the new group as it would appear that they will be the driving force.
If there is not an issue ... which is my stance ... then the new group is not required.
However this goes, my confidence in the Trust is now very low.
Sorry to hear that is your view stonemuse, but I feel that the trust should be talking to other groups, and listening to the opinion of fan's. I was invited to attend, as I have done so on the Fan's Forum....... should I also not attend this 'unelected body'. Come to think of it should I be attending the Valley Gold meetings, or visiting the Eltham supporters branch, or NWK, Bromley, or East Kent. Quite how do 'Iiase' with supporters, just stand around the trust table, on the approval of CAFC.? . By the way I did not sign a bit of paper, but I allowed my name to be included, should I have not allowed my attendance to be recorded?. How honest is that....... If I take the decision to attend, I will take the flak that comes with that. But I stand by my decision to attend, and unless the executive of the board decide otherwise I intend to continue speaking to fan's. I am not into 'elite' groups or 'supergroups'. And for the record my view is no more important that any other fan's. I hope you reconsider your position, and as I earlier posted more than happy to discuss this down at the Valley on the stall, or one of the branch meetings. Hope to catch you or anyone else down at the stall then later this week then.
As it stands, I think the new group, are just as likely to cause damage as they are to help matters.
If the new group genuinely, want answers to questions, then submit your questions to the trust.
I suspect that the new group will not do this without further persuasion, because they don't just want answers to questions.
What they more likely want is some form of immediate action, such as promoting that fans don't renew, their S/Ts.
As I've said before, this type of action will damage CAFC, far more than RD.
If this group have bona fide information. They are willing to share. Without us having to pay for this information via VOTV. As to why this is action is needed immediately and can't be done via the trust, then tell us now.
If not, then I think the trust members of the 21 should confirm, whether they support the trust or the new group.
You can't support both guys. It's akin to saying you're supporting 2 political parties. It's make your mind up time.
I don't have a problem if a trust member wants to attend the 21's meetings as an observer & to report back to the trust, but they should not be an active member of the new group.
I think the best way to guage support for the 21, would be to have an announcement on here & get a vote. The 21 will then have a clear idea, as to whether they feel they should proceed, or take a step back.
In conclusion, I support both parties, in as much as I'm glad that there are supporters willing to stand up for the fans.
But unless we are told why, I still do not understand the reason for this action by the 21, at this point in time.
Ps the Trust have secured a meeting with Katrien Miere so we need to formulate an approach - I urge all members of the Trust to support its aims and vision which have been quoted on here by several posters. We have a meeting coming up and a stall at the game on Tuesday. Basically we are open to fans and there are ways for individuals to help with their time, ideas and money! We need to get this right and I appeal to anyone within this new (old) grouping to support the Trust in its mission. Apologies if I am not using diplomatic terms but running the Trust takes time and this episode has just shown the need for the Trust to make it clear that we are addressing the issues. Incidentally if anyone is that passionate and has the time to help steer this then I believe there is one vacancy on the Trust board - so feel free to contribute
So what is the point of this new group if the Trust are already going to meet with the board?
A person can be a member of the Trust and express an opinion as part of the Supporters Group. There is no constitution that if you say something that is not official Trust policy or say xyz and not abide by the Code then you can't be a Trust member. If the Trust doesn't like or approve then it can say so. There's no law that everyone has to agree and that would impossible to organise in any case.
In terms of official position by a Trust spokesman, then Barnie can represent the Trust view. There's no reason, why he can't express his own personal opinion, as stated as can those that are members of the Supporters Group. They are speaking as individuals and if it is an official Supporters Group spokesperson then they are speaking as that.
I don't think there is a conflict. I don't see how the new group destabilises anything. It is not like gang territory. They are just asking a few questions.
IMO, I know the questions are good to sort out but also good to lighten up a bit, look for the things that unite us rather than divide us and leave some gaps for difference of opinion. It doesn't have to be tied up to the nines. It is a different situation to Back to the Valley, where there was a clear objective and threat to the club. Its fact finding.
I hope that RD / KM are looking to bring all Charlton supporters along for the ride and will be happy to go with supporter engagement.
Some are already happy with RD and think the rosy is future but that is an optimistic outlook. They should let those wanting to ask questions, do that. Respect to many of these characters as without them there would likely be no club to support. Maybe by the start of next season, Charlton can move forward as a united club with many of the important questions to the future answered.
My take. This new group need to sit down with the trust and sort out what their differences are and work to align them. As has been said before, little splinter groups will do our cause no good whatsoever. We need to be as one just as we were the last time something like this happened. Barney and co took the initiative when others were faltering/ sitting back. Imo they should be the group,and only them, to take this forward.
Comments
I respect SM's opinion. I am feeling a bit more laid back about it. It does not matter to me so much who is asking the questions, but as long as the questions get asked. I am presuming that the majority of the Supporter Group are members of the Supporters Trust ?
SM makes some good points though for more Trust involvement. That's why its good for Trust members such as Stone Muse to speak out and influence the Trust direction. I guess The Supporters Group can speak for themselves but I don't believe the aim was not to supplant or replace the Trust but get some answers. There was an open call for people to get involved from CL, Trust, Bloggers, ITTV and Not606.
The thing is that RD will hopefully want to engage with supporters / customers, at Season Ticket renewal time, to reassure and bring Charlton Athletic Supporters with the project. The plans for the Sparrows Lane upgrade is great news. At this stage is not about opposing RD it is about engaging with him and KM to try and get everyone on the same page and unity within the club.
that rather harsh on people who give their time and energy for the cause. ACV was a job well done ... Talented as the guys are do u expect them to score the winner whilst bringing u the half time beer, smoking and dodging pot holes?
the main aim of the first year of any such organisation must be to grow membership and raise awareness of the cause. i think they have done this brilliantly in an inclusive Manner. i see no egos at play from the trust board
i hope a complimentary way of utilising all the different talents and resources can be found between the various groups. leave the egos at the door and remember we are all on the same side
edit. .this isnt directed at the post aabove which i Mostly agree with
:-)
PS I would be eligible for selection :-)
His next move would be to explicitly say that he will only talk with the Trust as they are the only elected representative fans body and that would be a legitimate stance for him to take.
A while ago I was employed by CAFC after I did amazing work to help get club back to the valley. The owners listened to me and we made fantastic progress on and off the pitch, with the club employing more influential supporters, the owners changed and did not not listen to me anymore and did not like what I had to say. I was right and the club started to struggle and sack those influential supporters and our say in the club was all but over. In the meantime other supporters created a "Supporter's Trust" this was not the first time this had been tried but this time unlike before it started to take off and started to gain momentum to my surprise. Oh shit I am no longer employed by the team I love and didn't start or get involved in the trust as I thought it would fail, and when new owners come in I thought they were going to re-employ us all again, I know, I will get all the old lot together and show everyone yet again how the supporters group should work with me at the forefront and get a grip on the club I love again and regain some kudos.
.
So nothing concrete to discuss and nothing to undermine the Trust. And most certainly nothing to sign up to just yet
We need to get this right and I appeal to anyone within this new (old) grouping to support the Trust in its mission.
Apologies if I am not using diplomatic terms but running the Trust takes time and this episode has just shown the need for the Trust to make it clear that we are addressing the issues.
Incidentally if anyone is that passionate and has the time to help steer this then I believe there is one vacancy on the Trust board - so feel free to contribute
I was invited to attend, as I have done so on the Fan's Forum....... should I also not attend this 'unelected body'. Come to think of it should I be attending the Valley Gold meetings, or visiting the Eltham supporters branch, or NWK, Bromley, or East Kent. Quite how do 'Iiase' with supporters, just stand around the trust table, on the approval of CAFC.? . By the way I did not sign a bit of paper, but I allowed my name to be included, should I have not allowed my attendance to be recorded?. How honest is that.......
If I take the decision to attend, I will take the flak that comes with that. But I stand by my decision to attend, and unless the executive of the board decide otherwise I intend to continue speaking to fan's. I am not into 'elite' groups or 'supergroups'. And for the record my view is no more important that any other fan's. I hope you reconsider your position, and as I earlier posted more than happy to discuss this down at the Valley on the stall, or one of the branch meetings. Hope to catch you or anyone else down at the stall then later this week then.
Rick started the thread and has made 4 or 5 further posts. The early comments on the thread were fairly positive but as the discussion has developed I think I would be fair in saying that the initiative has on balance been poorly received on CL - a straw poll now (for whatever worth straw polls have) would I suspect show the majority to not be in favour of this group acting in addition to/outside the Trust.
The cynic in me would say that Rick and the other signatories believed this initiative would summon up memories of past glories and would receive overwhelming support. It hasn't.
I would welcome Rick or others associated with the new group responding to questions raised over the last half a dozen pages and perhaps to also indicate if they are either surprised or had anticipated the negativity. An idea of what action the group might consider (other than calling a public meeting!) if RD (as I suspect he will) either ignores or openly dismisses the challenge laid down.
If the new group genuinely, want answers to questions, then submit your questions to the trust.
I suspect that the new group will not do this without further persuasion, because they don't just want answers to questions.
What they more likely want is some form of immediate action, such as promoting that fans don't renew, their S/Ts.
As I've said before, this type of action will damage CAFC, far more than RD.
If this group have bona fide information. They are willing to share. Without us having to pay for this information via VOTV. As to why this is action is needed immediately and can't be done via the trust, then tell us now.
If not, then I think the trust members of the 21 should confirm, whether they support the trust or the new group.
You can't support both guys. It's akin to saying you're supporting 2 political parties. It's make your mind up time.
I don't have a problem if a trust member wants to attend the 21's meetings as an observer & to report back to the trust, but they should not be an active member of the new group.
I think the best way to guage support for the 21, would be to have an announcement on here & get a vote.
The 21 will then have a clear idea, as to whether they feel they should proceed, or take a step back.
In conclusion, I support both parties, in as much as I'm glad that there are supporters willing to stand up for the fans.
But unless we are told why, I still do not understand the reason for this action by the 21, at this point in time.
Nobody knows or at least those that do are not keen to say.
Are any of the new group Trust members? (I know that some are.)
If the democratic organisation of the Trust, does NOT approve of something that this new group wants to ask, what then?
If the new group persists with asking that question, isn't that just driving a large truck through the democratic process?
I feel the new group can prove a point, if those who are NOT part of the Trust board, resign from the Trust immediately.
Otherwise, it just smacks of a body trying to destabilise a democratic body with the aims of making supporters views felt.
In terms of official position by a Trust spokesman, then Barnie can represent the Trust view. There's no reason, why he can't express his own personal opinion, as stated as can those that are members of the Supporters Group. They are speaking as individuals and if it is an official Supporters Group spokesperson then they are speaking as that.
I don't think there is a conflict. I don't see how the new group destabilises anything. It is not like gang territory. They are just asking a few questions.
IMO, I know the questions are good to sort out but also good to lighten up a bit, look for the things that unite us rather than divide us and leave some gaps for difference of opinion. It doesn't have to be tied up to the nines. It is a different situation to Back to the Valley, where there was a clear objective and threat to the club. Its fact finding.
Some are already happy with RD and think the rosy is future but that is an optimistic outlook. They should let those wanting to ask questions, do that. Respect to many of these characters as without them there would likely be no club to support. Maybe by the start of next season, Charlton can move forward as a united club with many of the important questions to the future answered.
Barney and co took the initiative when others were faltering/ sitting back. Imo they should be the group,and only them, to take this forward.
After those questions, are you expecting them to say thanks & then just drop things ?