To me, it just seems that the club is desperately trying to get people into an underused bar. Probably not the worst idea, but they have gone about it in a completely wrong way.
Then let me bring my young sons in without charging them! By the time the club decide to let under 11s in for nothing my kids will be adults .
To me, it just seems that the club is desperately trying to get people into an underused bar. Probably not the worst idea, but they have gone about it in a completely wrong way.
Then let me bring my young sons in without charging them! By the time the club decide to let under 11s in for nothing my kids will be adults .
I will raise that with the club. Anything that gets this new crossbars package working is bound to be considered. I wonder what the feedback will be from fans trying it out at the invitation of the club?
To me, it just seems that the club is desperately trying to get people into an underused bar. Probably not the worst idea, but they have gone about it in a completely wrong way.
How hard is it too get several thousand mainly blokes into a bar inside the ground? How about free entry with your season ticket, or cheap drinks. Let us go in at half time, or after the game and watch big screen tvs. How can they go about getting it so arse upwards!?
Because they want to charge you £10 per game extra. If you popped in for a pint, they'd make say £2.
NB Excellent post by Mundell Fleming who is spot on.
To me, it just seems that the club is desperately trying to get people into an underused bar. Probably not the worst idea, but they have gone about it in a completely wrong way.
Then let me bring my young sons in without charging them! By the time the club decide to let under 11s in for nothing my kids will be adults .
I wonder what the feedback will be from fans trying it out at the invitation of the club?
To me, it just seems that the club is desperately trying to get people into an underused bar. Probably not the worst idea, but they have gone about it in a completely wrong way.
How hard is it too get several thousand mainly blokes into a bar inside the ground? How about free entry with your season ticket, or cheap drinks. Let us go in at half time, or after the game and watch big screen tvs. How can they go about getting it so arse upwards!?
Because they want to charge you £10 per game extra. If you popped in for a pint, they'd make say £2.
NB Excellent post by Mundell Fleming who is spot on.
The original plan for Crossbars was to open it up to all. I believe the council's safety committee quashed it or at least wanted restrictions that would have compromised it.
I should think there is a good chance of kids being free in there next season now...
Even at Charlton's prices, they'd never make £2 on a pint because of the VAT and duty.
The club is on the up and I do wish people would put more effort into supporting it on and off the field.
What makes you think we are on the up? as a club I'd say we're the opposite of on the up.. To spend weeks upon weeks of sitting around a table thinking up an idea without contacting the real FANS (NOT CUSTOMERS!!!), then to do a complete U-turn within 45mins is ridiculous to say the least, not many people get away with that in their job.
Why do I think we are on the up? It's a general feeling about where we might go next season plus I'm off to a quarter final tomorrow with my son and his friend (as fans not customers!)
To me, it just seems that the club is desperately trying to get people into an underused bar. Probably not the worst idea, but they have gone about it in a completely wrong way.
How hard is it too get several thousand mainly blokes into a bar inside the ground? How about free entry with your season ticket, or cheap drinks. Let us go in at half time, or after the game and watch big screen tvs. How can they go about getting it so arse upwards!?
Because they want to charge you £10 per game extra. If you popped in for a pint, they'd make say £2.
NB Excellent post by Mundell Fleming who is spot on.
The original plan for Crossbars was to open it up to all. I believe the council's safety committee quashed it or at least wanted restrictions that would have compromised it.
I should think there is a good chance of kids being free in there next season now...
Even at Charlton's prices, they'd never make £2 on a pint because of the VAT and duty.
Then if they wanted it open too all but that was rejected, couldnt they issue free season passes to anyone with a North Stand season ticket. This limits the the amount going in into the lounge and also allows people to use the bar at half time.
Its not rocket science yet only Charlton could balls it up!
This isn't over, because the next stage will probably be a retreat from the £230 upgrade price, once the club realises that it will cause a fall in take-up.
While I can't fault Seriously Red's optimism, this has been a textbook example of how not to do things, and the extent of the reaction shows what a bloody silly idea it was in the first place, not how wonderful the people who made the mistake are.
The letter did not communicate the original message properly and presumably the printed season ticket forms are all misleading as to the revised position and will go on causing confusion for days and weeks to come, especially as the club is pretending that it has not changed its position.
This and the recent refusal to set out the refund arrangements for the original Sheff Wednesday game are not clever; they suggest someone thinks the "customers" are stupid.
One of the reasons I gave the family area plan a good airing in VOTV was to make very clear to Ben Kensell that if the club went down the route of forcibly relocating longstanding season-ticket holders there would be uproar, but I didn't expect him to come up with something just as daft.
Just to add one angle in that the ticket office have called the 400 fans in the front rows of the North Upper as explained by some on this thread so perhaps less confusion. I agree that this is not the way to manage change but rather than attack the guy I think it points the way for more consultation. This first attempt worked in many ways - ideas were thrown around and nothing was leaked by any of the participants thus showing that it can be developed
Under the last owners this was simply not possible so the Trust spent it's first year building awareness and experience of how to run and basically waiting for them to sell up. I think the errors the last owners made were far more serious - price rises and failing to improve the squad last summer have left us where we are and probably cost them several million on the sale of the club which is funny in an ironic kinda way. I think there are many areas that our club could improve but the overall Season Ticket package is a step in the right direction... hopefully tomorrow is another? With all due respect I think you might be wrong on the pricing of the Crossbars option. I think that would be one retreat too far but more importantly this is a very different offer from what was there before - access direct from the seat and free halftime drinks plus a free programme is enough to convince some to buy it. Perhaps this deserves a separate thread so that fans can debate the merits away from the controversy of the launch?
To me, it just seems that the club is desperately trying to get people into an underused bar. Probably not the worst idea, but they have gone about it in a completely wrong way.
How hard is it too get several thousand mainly blokes into a bar inside the ground? How about free entry with your season ticket, or cheap drinks. Let us go in at half time, or after the game and watch big screen tvs. How can they go about getting it so arse upwards!?
Because they want to charge you £10 per game extra. If you popped in for a pint, they'd make say £2.
NB Excellent post by Mundell Fleming who is spot on.
The original plan for Crossbars was to open it up to all. I believe the council's safety committee quashed it or at least wanted restrictions that would have compromised it.
I should think there is a good chance of kids being free in there next season now...
Even at Charlton's prices, they'd never make £2 on a pint because of the VAT and duty.
Then if they wanted it open too all but that was rejected, couldnt they issue free season passes to anyone with a North Stand season ticket. This limits the the amount going in into the lounge and also allows people to use the bar at half time.
Its not rocket science yet only Charlton could balls it up!
If they had issued every season ticket holder with a pass then they would still not have had access due to fire and evacuation regulations. Counting people in would not be acceptable either. So places were rationed by price, which was reduced over time.
This isn't over, because the next stage will probably be a retreat from the £230 upgrade price, once the club realises that it will cause a fall in take-up.
While I can't fault Seriously Red's optimism, this has been a textbook example of how not to do things, and the extent of the reaction shows what a bloody silly idea it was in the first place, not how wonderful the people who made the mistake are.
The letter did not communicate the original message properly and presumably the printed season ticket forms are all misleading as to the revised position and will go on causing confusion for days and weeks to come, especially as the club is pretending that it has not changed its position.
This and the recent refusal to set out the refund arrangements for the original Sheff Wednesday game are not clever; they suggest someone thinks the "customers" are stupid.
One of the reasons I gave the family area plan a good airing in VOTV was to make very clear to Ben Kensell that if the club went down the route of forcibly relocating longstanding season-ticket holders there would be uproar, but I didn't expect him to come up with something just as daft.
Just to add one angle in that the ticket office have called the 400 fans in the front rows of the North Upper as explained by some on this thread so perhaps less confusion. I agree that this is not the way to manage change but rather than attack the guy I think it points the way for more consultation. This first attempt worked in many ways - ideas were thrown around and nothing was leaked by any of the participants thus showing that it can be developed
Under the last owners this was simply not possible so the Trust spent it's first year building awareness and experience of how to run and basically waiting for them to sell up. I think the errors the last owners made were far more serious - price rises and failing to improve the squad last summer have left us where we are and probably cost them several million on the sale of the club which is funny in an ironic kinda way. I think there are many areas that our club could improve but the overall Season Ticket package is a step in the right direction... hopefully tomorrow is another? With all due respect I think you might be wrong on the pricing of the Crossbars option. I think that would be one retreat too far but more importantly this is a very different offer from what was there before - access direct from the seat and free halftime drinks plus a free programme is enough to convince some to buy it. Perhaps this deserves a separate thread so that fans can debate the merits away from the controversy of the launch?
Your premise is essentially that there is more demand for lounge space, driven by people who have traditionally bought the cheapest season tickets, now than there was when the ground was at capacity and the team was in the Premier League. I think that's unlikely.
It's not a question of attacking individuals, but acknowledging that the club does not have the knowledge or experience of its own business to make the right decisions. Your surveys, with respect, will make minimal difference to that. It is gained over time and no doubt will be, eventually, but by cutting itself off from virtually all the people who ran these things successfully for many years - and it was successful - the club has created its own problems.
I don't think I have sat in the same seat twice since I had STs a good few years ago. I rarely sit in the same seat for each half. Really don't understand the panic about using one bit of plastic instead of another.
The club is on the up and I do wish people would put more effort into supporting it on and off the field.
What makes you think we are on the up? as a club I'd say we're the opposite of on the up.. To spend weeks upon weeks of sitting around a table thinking up an idea without contacting the real FANS (NOT CUSTOMERS!!!), then to do a complete U-turn within 45mins is ridiculous to say the least, not many people get away with that in their job.
Why do I think we are on the up? It's a general feeling about where we might go next season plus I'm off to a quarter final tomorrow with my son and his friend (as fans not customers!)
We're on the up, huh ?
Just gone bottom, huh ?
On that basis every team in the world is on the up :-(
The club is on the up and I do wish people would put more effort into supporting it on and off the field.
What makes you think we are on the up? as a club I'd say we're the opposite of on the up.. To spend weeks upon weeks of sitting around a table thinking up an idea without contacting the real FANS (NOT CUSTOMERS!!!), then to do a complete U-turn within 45mins is ridiculous to say the least, not many people get away with that in their job.
Why do I think we are on the up? It's a general feeling about where we might go next season plus I'm off to a quarter final tomorrow with my son and his friend (as fans not customers!)
We're on the up, huh ?
Just gone bottom, huh ?
On that basis every team in the world is on the up :-(
The only way is up! Let's see how the next three games go.
I've been to a Belgian League match Bruges v Lokeren. The lounges are crowded from an hour before the game, with fans having a drink and buying food. They worked a voucher system, where you bought a voucher or five as you entered the lounge and exchanged them for drinks at the numerous bars. At half-time, they line up the beers and there's no messing about - hand over the voucher, pick up the beer and off you go. Same procedure after the game. That's the Belgian football culture.
Seems to me, RD has had someone look at why people aren't spending money at the ground as they do in Belgium. This Kensall chappie has obviously come up with a hair-brained scheme, which isn't viable or workable.
RD and his advisors are obviously learning the hard way. They messed up the transfer window; they are under-estimating what a blow it will be to get relegated and how difficult it will be to get out of league one and they seem to think English players will fall over themselves to play in a minor European League in a clever exchange scheme. This Crossbars initiative is another step in the wrong direction, albeit it's been withdrawn. What's next?
If I wanted to go into crossbars at the next home match, how much would it cost me?
£10, or free with he trial offer
But at least you would have an option, As I asked earlier, If I don' t renew my S/T by April 9th (regardless of which division we in) Will it cost me £530 after this date ?
If I wanted to go into crossbars at the next home match, how much would it cost me?
£10, or free with he trial offer
But at least you would have an option, As I asked earlier, If I don' t renew my S/T by April 9th (regardless of which division we in) Will it cost me £530 after this date ?
It remains unclear but I would GUESS not.
Best to email the club (ben.kensell@cafc.co.uk) and get it in writing
I've been to a Belgian League match Bruges v Lokeren. The lounges are crowded from an hour before the game, with fans having a drink and buying food. They worked a voucher system, where you bought a voucher or five as you entered the lounge and exchanged them for drinks at the numerous bars. At half-time, they line up the beers and there's no messing about - hand over the voucher, pick up the beer and off you go. Same procedure after the game. That's the Belgian football culture.
Seems to me, RD has had someone look at why people aren't spending money at the ground as they do in Belgium. This Kensall chappie has obviously come up with a hair-brained scheme, which isn't viable or workable.
RD and his advisors are obviously learning the hard way. They messed up the transfer window; they are under-estimating what a blow it will be to get relegated and how difficult it will be to get out of league one and they seem to think English players will fall over themselves to play in a minor European League in a clever exchange scheme. This Crossbars initiative is another step in the wrong direction, albeit it's been withdrawn. What's next?
Good post. However, I have to say, that having been to Bruges and spent about 2 hours playing find the pub/bar, they possibly don't have such a big choice of alternatives. (Even if Charlton pubs are on the shite side).
This isn't over, because the next stage will probably be a retreat from the £230 upgrade price, once the club realises that it will cause a fall in take-up.
While I can't fault Seriously Red's optimism, this has been a textbook example of how not to do things, and the extent of the reaction shows what a bloody silly idea it was in the first place, not how wonderful the people who made the mistake are.
The letter did not communicate the original message properly and presumably the printed season ticket forms are all misleading as to the revised position and will go on causing confusion for days and weeks to come, especially as the club is pretending that it has not changed its position.
This and the recent refusal to set out the refund arrangements for the original Sheff Wednesday game are not clever; they suggest someone thinks the "customers" are stupid.
One of the reasons I gave the family area plan a good airing in VOTV was to make very clear to Ben Kensell that if the club went down the route of forcibly relocating longstanding season-ticket holders there would be uproar, but I didn't expect him to come up with something just as daft.
Just to add one angle in that the ticket office have called the 400 fans in the front rows of the North Upper as explained by some on this thread so perhaps less confusion. I agree that this is not the way to manage change but rather than attack the guy I think it points the way for more consultation. This first attempt worked in many ways - ideas were thrown around and nothing was leaked by any of the participants thus showing that it can be developed
Under the last owners this was simply not possible so the Trust spent it's first year building awareness and experience of how to run and basically waiting for them to sell up. I think the errors the last owners made were far more serious - price rises and failing to improve the squad last summer have left us where we are and probably cost them several million on the sale of the club which is funny in an ironic kinda way. I think there are many areas that our club could improve but the overall Season Ticket package is a step in the right direction... hopefully tomorrow is another? With all due respect I think you might be wrong on the pricing of the Crossbars option. I think that would be one retreat too far but more importantly this is a very different offer from what was there before - access direct from the seat and free halftime drinks plus a free programme is enough to convince some to buy it. Perhaps this deserves a separate thread so that fans can debate the merits away from the controversy of the launch?
Your premise is essentially that there is more demand for lounge space, driven by people who have traditionally bought the cheapest season tickets, now than there was when the ground was at capacity and the team was in the Premier League. I think that's unlikely.
It's not a question of attacking individuals, but acknowledging that the club does not have the knowledge or experience of its own business to make the right decisions. Your surveys, with respect, will make minimal difference to that. It is gained over time and no doubt will be, eventually, but by cutting itself off from virtually all the people who ran these things successfully for many years - and it was successful - the club has created its own problems.
I agree that the club did indeed cut itself off from the past in terms of both people and process... and this was what led directly to the birth of the supporters Trust launching with images resembling those of the Valley Party. Just 200 members joined at launch but we are now 5x that size in terms of members and share of the fanbase that use our site.
And I agree that the survey does not sell the spaces in this new offering. But it does give an indication that just over 30% are interested. No idea what package not price but it is up to the club to approach this segment of the fanbase and convert a sizeable proportion into sales. That is simply not my area of expertise so best left to people such as yourself and fans with marketing and sales experience to advise. Perhaps not via a message board but maybe the Trust can ask fans to share this knowledge and we build a working group to support the club.
It is not yet clear if the club wish to engage on this basis but there is definitely more appetite than there was three months ago.
The Trust have made mistakes but I would contend that if didn't then we weren't trying hard enough...and every mistake is a learning opportunity. In this case I really hope the whole consultation process can be developed in several ways to avoid a repeat of yesterday.
And finally may I add that your (and others) experience of the growth strategy from the 90s is invaluable - not just for the details, statistics and planning plus the actual execution... But to show people that increasing the gate year on year on year by 1,000 + can be done without getting promoted. Sure I am naturally optimistic about CAFC but I can see bigger sales by volume of Season Tickets guaranteed for next season. That's a start of the club going in the right direction in my book.
@Miserableoldgit I don't understand how you have a season ticket, you say your at your wits end and had you van taken by bailiffs, I thought the auction was to get your van back not a new season ticket!!!
@Miserableoldgit I don't understand how you have a season ticket, you say your at your wits end and had you van taken by bailiffs, I thought the auction was to get your van back not a new season ticket!!!
How do you know he is not asking a general question but clarifying his meaning by using himself as an example?
Even if he isn't it's no business of you, me or anyone else.
I'm pretty sure I've read twice on this thread him asking about renewing his season ticket, your right it's non of my business but if I was in trouble like he says he is then renewing a season ticket wouldn't be p
@Gumbo I have a S/T because I paid for it last June. It looks like, at the moment, I will not have £300 by April 9th, this is why I'm asking, if I can renew before next season, how much it will cost after then.
I received a reply from Ben Kensell which clarifies things ???
All tickets in the North Upper will be frozen next season at £300.
No one will be asked to relocate or move if they do not want to take up the Crossbars package.
This package is optional for fans.
If you renew before 9th April that will be £300
As for the next season 15/16 it is my intention to honour the same structure as this season that Crossbars is optional to fans
as a package to add to their season tickets.
Thanks for doing that & posting the results.
However, it's still a bit unclear - in particular some fans who may have problems paying the £300 by April 9th have asked whether they will pay more if they renew after the 9th?
The 2 statements below you quote from Ben Kensell - don't make that clear:
"All tickets in the North Upper will be frozen next season at £300"
I received a reply from Ben Kensell which clarifies things ???
All tickets in the North Upper will be frozen next season at £300.
No one will be asked to relocate or move if they do not want to take up the Crossbars package.
This package is optional for fans.
If you renew before 9th April that will be £300
As for the next season 15/16 it is my intention to honour the same structure as this season that Crossbars is optional to fans
as a package to add to their season tickets.
Thanks for doing that & posting the results.
However, it's still a bit unclear - in particular some fans who may have problems paying the £300 by April 9th have asked whether they will pay more if they renew after the 9th?
The 2 statements below you quote from Ben Kensell - don't make that clear:
"All tickets in the North Upper will be frozen next season at £300"
So... what is the special deal then? If the Crossbars thing is optional for North Upper people in the so-called Crossbars section, then will you not be able to buy Crossbars passes if you sit anywhere else?
Or do you just get Crossbars at a better price, if you choose to sit in North Upper? I don't get that - the 'Crossbars' areas are already full. So what's the purpose of the incentive?
Comments
By the time the club decide to let under 11s in for nothing my kids will be adults .
NB Excellent post by Mundell Fleming who is spot on.
I should think there is a good chance of kids being free in there next season now...
Even at Charlton's prices, they'd never make £2 on a pint because of the VAT and duty.
Its not rocket science yet only Charlton could balls it up!
Under the last owners this was simply not possible so the Trust spent it's first year building awareness and experience of how to run and basically waiting for them to sell up.
I think the errors the last owners made were far more serious - price rises and failing to improve the squad last summer have left us where we are and probably cost them several million on the sale of the club which is funny in an ironic kinda way.
I think there are many areas that our club could improve but the overall Season Ticket package is a step in the right direction... hopefully tomorrow is another?
With all due respect I think you might be wrong on the pricing of the Crossbars option. I think that would be one retreat too far but more importantly this is a very different offer from what was there before - access direct from the seat and free halftime drinks plus a free programme is enough to convince some to buy it. Perhaps this deserves a separate thread so that fans can debate the merits away from the controversy of the launch?
By the time you take out the 'free' pint and programm, the increase is only around £7 a game anyway.
It's not a question of attacking individuals, but acknowledging that the club does not have the knowledge or experience of its own business to make the right decisions. Your surveys, with respect, will make minimal difference to that. It is gained over time and no doubt will be, eventually, but by cutting itself off from virtually all the people who ran these things successfully for many years - and it was successful - the club has created its own problems.
Just gone bottom, huh ?
On that basis every team in the world is on the up :-(
Seems to me, RD has had someone look at why people aren't spending money at the ground as they do in Belgium. This Kensall chappie has obviously come up with a hair-brained scheme, which isn't viable or workable.
RD and his advisors are obviously learning the hard way. They messed up the transfer window; they are under-estimating what a blow it will be to get relegated and how difficult it will be to get out of league one and they seem to think English players will fall over themselves to play in a minor European League in a clever exchange scheme. This Crossbars initiative is another step in the wrong direction, albeit it's been withdrawn. What's next?
As I asked earlier, If I don' t renew my S/T by April 9th (regardless of which division we in) Will it cost me £530 after this date ?
It remains unclear but I would GUESS not.
Best to email the club (ben.kensell@cafc.co.uk) and get it in writing
NB I'm liking the voucher idea.
And I agree that the survey does not sell the spaces in this new offering. But it does give an indication that just over 30% are interested. No idea what package not price but it is up to the club to approach this segment of the fanbase and convert a sizeable proportion into sales. That is simply not my area of expertise so best left to people such as yourself and fans with marketing and sales experience to advise. Perhaps not via a message board but maybe the Trust can ask fans to share this knowledge and we build a working group to support the club.
It is not yet clear if the club wish to engage on this basis but there is definitely more appetite than there was three months ago.
The Trust have made mistakes but I would contend that if didn't then we weren't trying hard enough...and every mistake is a learning opportunity. In this case I really hope the whole consultation process can be developed in several ways to avoid a repeat of yesterday.
And finally may I add that your (and others) experience of the growth strategy from the 90s is invaluable - not just for the details, statistics and planning plus the actual execution... But to show people that increasing the gate year on year on year by 1,000 + can be done without getting promoted. Sure I am naturally optimistic about CAFC but I can see bigger sales by volume of Season Tickets guaranteed for next season. That's a start of the club going in the right direction in my book.
Even if he isn't it's no business of you, me or anyone else.
It looks like, at the moment, I will not have £300 by April 9th, this is why I'm asking, if I can renew before next season, how much it will cost after then.
All tickets in the North Upper will be frozen next season at £300.
No one will be asked to relocate or move if they do not want to take up the Crossbars package.
This package is optional for fans.
If you renew before 9th April that will be £300
As for the next season 15/16 it is my intention to honour the same structure as this season that Crossbars is optional to fans
as a package to add to their season tickets.
However, it's still a bit unclear - in particular some fans who may have problems paying the £300 by April 9th have asked whether they will pay more if they renew after the 9th?
The 2 statements below you quote from Ben Kensell - don't make that clear:
"All tickets in the North Upper will be frozen next season at £300"
"If you renew before 9th April that will be £300"
Did he say anything about prices after April 9th?
Or do you just get Crossbars at a better price, if you choose to sit in North Upper? I don't get that - the 'Crossbars' areas are already full. So what's the purpose of the incentive?