- SL only play 30 games in the Pro League - with 6 games to go they are 10 pts clear; they will probably be champions within 2 more games, i.e. this month - their league season ends in March, they are out of their domestic cup and they finished bottom of their Europa League group.
Except that their Championship is based on play-offs, so the end of the league won't be the end of the season for them.
Whatever the motivation of the OP I think the discussion has merits. I would like to thank Mansfield Park for the link - with that number of players leaving Standard Liege it looks like there is a plan. We don't have long to wait to see how it works first hand.
Thanks. Thinking a little bit more about it, I don't think RD will be able to repeat this on a similar scale in future often (9 players out of 13 moved out of SL in Jan 2014 went to his other clubs, including family-owned clubs). I also don't think he can use CAFC as a "giving" club in a similar way because:
- SL only play 30 games in the Pro League - with 6 games to go they are 10 pts clear; they will probably be champions within 2 more games, i.e. this month - their league season ends in March, they are out of their domestic cup and they finished bottom of their Europa League group.
Therefore, their squad strength could be significantly but safely depleted in this year's January window. Obviously, with us playing a 46 games marathon, a very different logic applies.
The main point here is if the SL players finish in March (mid month?) then what are they doing between then and May - perhaps some of them jump on Eurostar on an emergency loan?!
Secondly CAFC did have 15 players out of contract in the summer. So I think we will see a repeat over the summer. I have written about this in Trust News and will publish the article online when I get a chance. Out of the best players out of contract two have already been sold and one has been given a long term deal. I expect at least eight more CAFC players will not be renewed. Why? Because the group has a surplus of players and CAFC needs to stop pissing about at the wrong end of the table! Also it is very clear that the RD focus is on 18-24 year olds.
There is one big issue which Mundell Fleming and others have highlighted - who is making the call on where players play in the group. Perhaps RD will (should) appoint a group director of football or perhaps the SL director is giving a list to RD who in turn shares that with CAFC football and finance people? To manage all of these clubs and be fair to the fans, players and coaching staff there needs to be someone at the centre who is alligned with the success of the group and not just one club. What I mean is that there will be some quick wins now but that there might well be some serious tensions in the medium term as (hopefully) CAFC reaches a similar playing standard to Liege.
One thing to lose Kermorgant in the middle of a relegation fight, quite another to watch a 20 goal a season striker disappear mid season just as we start challenging for the top six.
- SL only play 30 games in the Pro League - with 6 games to go they are 10 pts clear; they will probably be champions within 2 more games, i.e. this month - their league season ends in March, they are out of their domestic cup and they finished bottom of their Europa League group.
Except that their Championship is based on play-offs, so the end of the league won't be the end of the season for them.
Oops, yeah, play-offs into early May, so pruning the SL squad in January to make loans was still not considered to be a significant risk by RD.
A consortium approach to players and their development is interesting but makes the manager's job hard and lends itself to a coach role.
It would be great to see some of our younger talent going out to European clubs for experience rather than Wimbledon.
It would also be great to be at the top of the consortium's priorities.
Yeah, we're definitely getting a Director of Football and the manager role will be replaced by a head coach. At the least it will be interesting to see what happens. Roland knows football so I have confidence he knows what he's doing.
I think the most important thing for people is to get some hope back. This season should be written off in terms of judging the new owner.
A consortium approach to players and their development is interesting but makes the manager's job hard and lends itself to a coach role.
It would be great to see some of our younger talent going out to European clubs for experience rather than Wimbledon.
It would also be great to be at the top of the consortium's priorities.
This is the thing. Charlton are for better or worse no longer a club run individually, they are simply part of a larger group, a small cog in a big wheel. There are benefits and drawbacks even if such a scheme is run expertly (as RD's resume suggests he can do) but even though I am more pro-Duchatelet than many on here, I can't help feeling that the days of talking about 'our club' are always going to be a bit more past-tense than present; essentially, we're franchised. Now I can see enough benefits that I am willing to see this through, and unlike some I really don't think that relegation is the game plan of RD and Co., but the times, they are a-changin'. Whether Chris Powell will be one of those changes by this time next year is still very much an open question... for better or worse.
Posted these comments on the "Meet the Board" thread last week...probably more appropriate here...
TelMc32 Member January 26 I think both of those scenarios, players & coaches, could benefit all those involved and ultimately us as fans too. It can't do any harm, for example, to see how the coaches at Liege operate, when they are heading their league & looking to European qualification.
I have wondered whether M. Duchatelet is actually ahead of the game here in terms of the implications of FFP across Europe. He's building a network of clubs at varying levels in their countries and has the opportunity to operate a pool of players/coaches to try and benefit all parties. Flag Quote · 3Like LOL
ShootersHillGuru Member January 26
Only playing devils advocate here but it's hard enought to run one football club successfully let alone six especially when you intend to possibly combine their playing assets to suit circumstances. It's going to be one hell of a experiment. Flag Quote · 1Like LOL
TelMc32 Member January 26
I don't disagree SHG, but I can see potential for the coaching staff as there will be some times when our seasons don't overlap, if only short periods.
Youth exchanges would be easier to manage, but I'd send 2/3 at a time to ease any settling in abroad (Man U have done this with one of the other Belgian clubs I believe).
For senior players, it could make for easier loans and even permanent transfers. The latter could be on favourable terms/fees, whilst not dis-advantageous to the player and help clubs within the group stay well within FFP. Potential to then invest more in non-group players.
I'm not sure I like the thought of being a group so much. We'd all (fans of each of the clubs) want only what was best for our individual clubs, but I can imagine that there may be benefits in a number of areas for someone who owned them all. Flag Quote · Like LOL
PragueAddick Member January 26
I agree with both Tel and SHG. It is a very interesting experiment, but there are a lot of reasons why it could go wrong. That said, I'd rather be a Charlton fan in this set up than an Ujpest fan.
Who knows? One day RD may sell Standard and we may become his number one team. Lord knows probably even League One is better than most of the Jupiler League. Either way, Standard are 10 points clear at the top in Belgium and are going to be champions, barring some end of season disaster.
Who knows? One day RD may sell Standard and we may become his number one team. Lord knows probably even League One is better than most of the Jupiler League. Either way, Standard are 10 points clear at the top in Belgium and are going to be champions, barring some end of season disaster.
I wouldn't be so sure unfortunately; it makes me think of Palarse.
They were shocking during the end of last season, yet managed to fluke their way through the play off system and in to the prem!
Unfortunately play offs are also about a fair amount of luck in my mind
Who knows? One day RD may sell Standard and we may become his number one team. Lord knows probably even League One is better than most of the Jupiler League. Either way, Standard are 10 points clear at the top in Belgium and are going to be champions, barring some end of season disaster.
Jupiler League is the name of The Dutch 2nd Division, have no idea what the Belgium 2nd division is called.
When you look at the transfer window we have had the first phase of this change - we can all judge the impact at the home games in February and assess the success or otherwise. Assuming we stay up we will see over the summer what the next stage looks like in terms of players leaving and joining. To me the aim has to be top six - we will see how many players come in from outside the group to accelerate progress. Will top players suddenly move on? What is the gap between CAFC now and the top six? Is break even (with player sales) the objective or perhaps it is a lot more ambitious - by that I mean maximize revenue and develop the playing side as quickly as possible.
What sort of money would you throw at our club in the quest for too six
It might be a little early to describe Duchatelet's network as ingenious. Not only is it very early days, but an important question is what benefits does the network provide that cannot be achieved through the normal course of business.
The loan signings of Ajdarevic, Thuram-Ulien and Koc are a case in point. For all we know they might be heavily subsidised, but it's not obvious that the Club couldn't have done at least as well in the loan market without the Duchatelet connection. Similarly, from Standard's perspective, is Charlton the best destination for these players? There is nothing remarkable about the number of loan players at Charlton or the number loaned from Standard.
On the other hand, the transfer of Ghoochannejhad may well be an example of a genuine synergy; a "bargain" transfer might suit Duchatelet if it retains a valuable asset within the network without producing what might be a taxable gain in Standard Liege, whilst a "cheap" signing at Charlton helps to reduce the Club's funding need. However, it's not clear how often this kind of arrangement might apply or, in reality, how much value it really creates.
The network does give Duchatelet control over the development of and the careers of a much larger pool of players than would be possible at just one Club. We also know that there will be a significant bias towards youth development within this pool. However, the ingenious bit would be in finding a way of creating real value out of the opportunity this situation might create, i.e. more value than might be achievable otherwise.
If this is possible, it will likely involve a very thoughtful, perhaps "scientific" analysis of player development needs and of what's required to maximise their value, whilst using the network to meet these needs, thus creating multiple win-win outcomes. If it works, it will be impressive.
An easy win for Duchatelet obviously, though not necessarily for the players (suggesting the possibility of a short-term versus long-term conflict), would be for the "best" Clubs to lend (or sell) their fringe players to the "weaker" Clubs within the network (Standard to Charlton, Standard to Alcorcon, for example), thereby benefitting the weaker Clubs at the expense of the stronger Clubs.
Players will move the other way only when they are considered good enough to step up. There may be some long-term benefit in this, but it's not obvious that it will justify the entire scheme. Moreover, its important to remember that the players will have a view about where they play and who for. And the more valuable they are the more truculent they'll be if they are being "used". It won't be easy for Duchatelet.
The most important thing right now is that the Club has an owner who isn't desperate to sell and who we can, therefore, expect to think long-term. However, he's not going to splash the cash and that will no doubt make it very tough to be competitive at Championship level.
We'll need to wait and see if and how Duchatelet's network adds value, but ironically it may well be that the key factor in whether Duchatelet's experiment works will turn out to be the success of Charlton's academy. Is the emergence of Cousins, Pigott, Lennon, Poyet and the hugely impressive Gomez right on cue? Add Ghoochannejhad, Parzysek and then Solly and Wiggins to that group and perhaps we are already beginning to see the backbone of a very good side or, alternatively, some very hefty transfer fees. If so, it won't be the network that created the value, it will have been wonderful timing.
When you look at the transfer window we have had the first phase of this change - we can all judge the impact at the home games in February and assess the success or otherwise. Assuming we stay up we will see over the summer what the next stage looks like in terms of players leaving and joining. To me the aim has to be top six - we will see how many players come in from outside the group to accelerate progress. Will top players suddenly move on? What is the gap between CAFC now and the top six? Is break even (with player sales) the objective or perhaps it is a lot more ambitious - by that I mean maximize revenue and develop the playing side as quickly as possible.
What sort of money would you throw at our club in the quest for too six
That's a good question! On top of players from the group we will see how much is spent on transfer fees. It would take someone a lot more knowledgable than I to define the precise gap between the current CAFC squad and attaining 5th or 6th place in the next couple of years - I would simply improve the weakest parts of the squad. If Charlton were to mimic Forest or Leicester then we simply have to consider how much pay and transfer fees involved in bringing in a younger version of Andy Reed? The prize is just one year in the Premier League which gives £120M over four or five years AND revitalising the club - Airman Brown would know better than I what the kick might be on the gate during a promotion challenge so part of my case is that moving up the league is partially self funding. Or as I state in my article the alternative to not going for it is going to kill the club slowly as people simply stop going.
In answer to Mundells point above I agree that loan players might have been brought in from elsewhere in the same volume. Perhaps the advantage of a network is that players can move much easier between clubs in a group just as workers move between countries working for a multinational and there are no agents involved hyping up the fees and killing deals where it suits them.
I am not saying this is a guaranteed success story about to happen. That would be a bit premature before three home games and a 5th round cup tie! But if these two strikers hit the ground running and there are more players to come then I think many of us might live with an "unconventional" keeper.
A consortium approach to players and their development is interesting but makes the manager's job hard and lends itself to a coach role.
It would be great to see some of our younger talent going out to European clubs for experience rather than Wimbledon.
It would also be great to be at the top of the consortium's priorities.
Yeah, we're definitely getting a Director of Football and the manager role will be replaced by a head coach. At the least it will be interesting to see what happens. Roland knows football so I have confidence he knows what he's doing.
I think the most important thing for people is to get some hope back. This season should be written off in terms of judging the new owner.
You seem to know an awful lot about Duchatelet and what he's planning. Do you work for him? You are certainly working very hard to put him in a good light.
Don't think this season written off at all. we get to see several new signing on Saturday and twice more in February so we can all judge the impact of this new approach...and then there is the small matter of a pinnacle tie in the FA Cup 5th round.
A consortium approach to players and their development is interesting but makes the manager's job hard and lends itself to a coach role.
It would be great to see some of our younger talent going out to European clubs for experience rather than Wimbledon.
It would also be great to be at the top of the consortium's priorities.
Yeah, we're definitely getting a Director of Football and the manager role will be replaced by a head coach. At the least it will be interesting to see what happens. Roland knows football so I have confidence he knows what he's doing.
I think the most important thing for people is to get some hope back. This season should be written off in terms of judging the new owner.
You seem to know an awful lot about Duchatelet and what he's planning. Do you work for him? You are certainly working very hard to put him in a good light.
I secretly work for Josh Harris, I know everything about the competition.
"It might be a little early to describe Duchatelet's network as ingenious. Not only is it very early days, but an important question is what benefits does the network provide that cannot be achieved through the normal course of business." ....
...... and couldn't help smiling when I read an article in tonight's Evening Standard entitled, "Jose's got 27 players out on loan .... ".. Twenty seven!!
Chelsea are hoarding young players and lending them out right, left and centre, throughout Europe and at all levels within the English leagues, to Clubs that have been hand-picked for the purpose. Whilst Chelsea are an extreme example, this is common practice amongst the big Clubs and it really isn't obvious what Duchatelet's network can achieve that isn't possible operating independently.
It's true, of course, that the lower tier Clubs within the network might get to take players on loan that may not otherwise be available, but if that is "forced" it won't necessarily achieve the player development objectives that Chelsea and others are aiming to secure. Moreover, the players may reject the strategy.
As an aside, in my view, for what it's worth, the loan system is an important part of the FUP (Football Unfair Play) strategy which has been rolled out over the last 10-20 years and needs radical reform.
Who knows? One day RD may sell Standard and we may become his number one team. Lord knows probably even League One is better than most of the Jupiler League. Either way, Standard are 10 points clear at the top in Belgium and are going to be champions, barring some end of season disaster.
Jupiler League is the name of The Dutch 2nd Division, have no idea what the Belgium 2nd division is called.
Ummm the Belgian Second Division is called the ummm Belgian Second Division
What happens when the shoe's on the other foot and Chris Solly is sold to Standard for £1,000 ?
We can't have it both ways, if we make our bed we have to lay in it.
however roland doesn't sell key players from the bigger teams. chris solly would not be sold but someone like dorian dervite or harry lennon will be sold. it is actually a very clever business idea because whenever a club is weak in a position a player from another club is drafted in. also he likes to use youth a lot which is quite clever. overall you have to say he made a success at liege and potentially could see a leaner young team here. it is different but it probably works.
What happens when the shoe's on the other foot and Chris Solly is sold to Standard for £1,000 ?
We can't have it both ways, if we make our bed we have to lay in it.
however roland doesn't sell key players from the bigger teams. chris solly would not be sold but someone like dorian dervite or harry lennon will be sold. it is actually a very clever business idea because whenever a club is weak in a position a player from another club is drafted in. also he likes to use youth a lot which is quite clever. overall you have to say he made a success at liege and potentially could see a leaner young team here. it is different but it probably works.
I doubt Solly would be sold. He's young and has been at the club a long time. Remember, Roland favors young sides. Poyet is also likely to feature into our future plans.
It just so happens that younger players offer the ideal balance of a lower cost base (i.e. they are paid less than senior pros) and they are generally an appreciating asset i.e. the more experience they get the more valuable they become. I think all six clubs are Farms, with the players the stock. I doubt anyone out of contract over 28 will be offered a new deal as the investment in wages doesn't generate the return in terms of a transfer fee. We, like SL, will probably have an average age of 22 next season
I'd be surprised if we loan in anyone in, this season may be the exception because of the precarious position we are in and the lack of time to plan. It seams to me that in order for a player to appreciate in value they have to play, which is why players will be moved around the network. Experience adds value. In future we wont want to waste that experience opportunity on another teams player, though I think you will see players being loaned out from the network where appropriate.
This could be Rolands business model. if so, promotion isn't a priority (though I'm sure he won't turn it down), relegation isn't a disaster, the key is developing talent and maximising the value of this by giving it playing time. Cat 1 status for the academy is a priority and I expect us to be pushing for this as soon as possible.
US Baseball has had this sort of system for years - when players wages are your main cost it doesn't make sense to have them sitting around doing what they are not paid for.
When you look at the transfer window we have had the first phase of this change - we can all judge the impact at the home games in February and assess the success or otherwise. Assuming we stay up we will see over the summer what the next stage looks like in terms of players leaving and joining. To me the aim has to be top six - we will see how many players come in from outside the group to accelerate progress. Will top players suddenly move on? What is the gap between CAFC now and the top six? Is break even (with player sales) the objective or perhaps it is a lot more ambitious - by that I mean maximize revenue and develop the playing side as quickly as possible.
What sort of money would you throw at our club in the quest for too six
That's a good question! On top of players from the group we will see how much is spent on transfer fees. It would take someone a lot more knowledgable than I to define the precise gap between the current CAFC squad and attaining 5th or 6th place in the next couple of years - I would simply improve the weakest parts of the squad. If Charlton were to mimic Forest or Leicester then we simply have to consider how much pay and transfer fees involved in bringing in a younger version of Andy Reed? The prize is just one year in the Premier League which gives £120M over four or five years AND revitalising the club - Airman Brown would know better than I what the kick might be on the gate during a promotion challenge so part of my case is that moving up the league is partially self funding. Or as I state in my article the alternative to not going for it is going to kill the club slowly as people simply stop going.
In answer to Mundells point above I agree that loan players might have been brought in from elsewhere in the same volume. Perhaps the advantage of a network is that players can move much easier between clubs in a group just as workers move between countries working for a multinational and there are no agents involved hyping up the fees and killing deals where it suits them.
I am not saying this is a guaranteed success story about to happen. That would be a bit premature before three home games and a 5th round cup tie! But if these two strikers hit the ground running and there are more players to come then I think many of us might live with an "unconventional" keeper.
I think your calculation re marginal revenue from additional ticket sales is pushing it a bit. I would say £15 x 2,000 x 23, which is £700k, absolute max, and that is probably a100 per cent increase on current home match ticket sales so very difficult to achieve.
Well he clearly has a plan, and we are starting to have a better idea what it is than when he took over. Whether it works or not is another matter - I don't think we came out of the transfer window stronger and Powell may be playing things down tactically, but it doesn't look like we have some good emergency loans in the offing. If we can stay up, the summer will be very interesting and maybe the plan will have a better chance of succeeding.
Charlton Athletic's wealthy new owner began this month by making a humble admission. "I regret what happened – and I am the one who caused it," said Roland Duchâtelet. "I have many qualities but I do not always communicate well and I didn't read the situation right. I'm not perfect – but now we understand each other better and that's why we have signed a charter that stipulates that fans will have a say in issues that closely affect them such as facilities and ticket prices."
Duchâtelet was not addressing fans of Charlton but rather of Standard Liège, one of the other holdings in his ever-expanding empire of football clubs. Last summer there had been mass protests against his running of the Belgian side and a group of fans even tried to ransack his office. Now the hostility has been replaced by admiration for the job being done by Duchâtelet. The 67-year-old's time at Liège offers clues as to what Charlton supporters might expect from the man who paid around £14m for their club five weeks ago.
What provoked the fans' revolt last summer was Duchâtelet's decision to sack a popular manager, Mircea Rednic, and replace him with a little-known 37-year-old from Israel, Guy Luzon. That was interpreted as a cost-cutting measure too far by a man who had already presided over the sale of several of the club's best players since taking over in 2011 and seemed more interested in lining his own deep pockets. Now, however, Liège are top of the Belgian league thanks to the performances of a crop of young players who have blossomed under Luzon, and Duchâtelet's model is not seen as purely self-serving.
Duchâtelet has never been short of ideas. Success in electronics made him one of Belgium's wealthiest men and he has embellished his fortune with successful ventures in a host of other sectors. He has even tried his hand at politics, establishing a small party in 1997 with the aim of radically revamping the Belgian economy so that everyone would be paid a minimum wage whether they worked or not, and tax would be levied not on income but expenditure. His party was eventually absorbed into a bigger one, Open Vlaamse Liberalen en Democraten, and his plans for football also seem to involve handy alliances. A little like Watford and Udinese, Charlton have become part of a chain that is supposed to benefit each link.
Essentially Duchâtelet, who does not disguise his belief that money can be made from football, seems to be operating on the idea that it works out cheaper to buy loads of clubs as opposed to loads of players. Along with Charlton and Liège, he also owns FC Carl Zeiss Jena in Germany and AD Alcorcón in the Spanish second division, while entrusting Hungary's Ujpest FC to his son and another Belgian club, Sint-Truidense, to his long-time partner.
He is also believed to be seeking clubs in Portugal and Italy. While Duchâtelet has specific objectives for each club – for instance, he has long campaigned for the creation of a combined Belgian and Dutch league to enable Liège to grow – it is clear that he also sees how they can help each other. Charlton's January transfer activity was a demonstration.
Last month Charlton sold two of the manager Chris Powell's most trusted players, Yann Kermorgant and Dale Stephens, and drafted in several replacements from abroad, including four (three on loan) from Liège.
The economic logic was clear – Kermorgant and Stephens were nearing the end of their contracts so could have left for nothing in the summer and the link with Liège meant replacements were available at no cost. Powell's challenge is to ensure that makes sense from a football viewpoint: with Charlton in the Championship relegation zone, the new arrivals have to adapt quickly.
The Swedish midfielder Astrit Ajdarevic at least has rudimentary experience of English football – before joining Liège he was on Leicester City's book at the same time as Powell – but the others, such as the goalkeeper Yohann Thuram (cousin of the former France great, Lilian), midfielder Anil Koc and striker Reza Ghoochanneijad do not. While some relegation-threatened clubs might rest key players for an FA Cup tie, one of Powell's goals from Saturday's trip to Sheffield Wednesday will be to use the game to further harden the players he now has to rely for survival.
"I was disappointed to see [Kermorgant and Stephens] go but we can't dwell on that, especially not in the position we're in. We have a number of foreign players that have to get used to the Championship and FA Cup straight away. It's now a different Charlton.
"In the two games we've played since we've made a lot of changes [defeats to Wigan and Birmingham] we've played some very good stuff. Football-wise and possession-wise and in terms of creating chances it was very, very good, but ultimately I'd rather us play badly and have 1% of the game and win. We've got to find a way asap of making sure they fit in and get used to Championship pace. You look at someone like [Mesut] Özil in the Premier League, they find it quite tough because of the relentlessness and physicality of English football, so that's something they've got to get used to. It'll be interesting but it's up to me, my staff, and them, to get them up to speed."
Like any manager of a club with a new owner, especially one not afraid to sack fan favourites, Powell knows his position is precarious. "I'm not naive, I know what happens," he says. "At the moment I'm fine. I'm having to build a relationship with someone who doesn't know me and I don't know him, but it's about trying to make sure we can do the best for the football club."
"I speak to him on a regular basis. I'll give him my take on a game whenever it's appropriate. He's a very busy man. He comes over and normally spends a few days speaking with myself and other staff around the club. Normally I call him at my leisure over the weekend or the beginning of the week and just give him my thoughts."
One of the assets that attracted Duchâtelet to Charlton was the club's fruitful academy. The Standard precedent suggests even more young Addicks can expect to injected into the first team at The Valley - and perhaps into other associated teams around Europe.
If things continue to go well, Powell envisages making the most of being a member of the Duchâtelet web. "Why not use the network of clubs and players that are available?" he says. "I'd be silly not to look at players at Standard. That may be something we look at in the future. I'll be going over to those clubs and speaking to the managers. Why not use it if it's there? In any business you take opportunities to share ideas."
Comments
Secondly CAFC did have 15 players out of contract in the summer. So I think we will see a repeat over the summer. I have written about this in Trust News and will publish the article online when I get a chance. Out of the best players out of contract two have already been sold and one has been given a long term deal. I expect at least eight more CAFC players will not be renewed. Why? Because the group has a surplus of players and CAFC needs to stop pissing about at the wrong end of the table! Also it is very clear that the RD focus is on 18-24 year olds.
There is one big issue which Mundell Fleming and others have highlighted - who is making the call on where players play in the group. Perhaps RD will (should) appoint a group director of football or perhaps the SL director is giving a list to RD who in turn shares that with CAFC football and finance people?
To manage all of these clubs and be fair to the fans, players and coaching staff there needs to be someone at the centre who is alligned with the success of the group and not just one club. What I mean is that there will be some quick wins now but that there might well be some serious tensions in the medium term as (hopefully) CAFC reaches a similar playing standard to Liege.
One thing to lose Kermorgant in the middle of a relegation fight, quite another to watch a 20 goal a season striker disappear mid season just as we start challenging for the top six.
It would be great to see some of our younger talent going out to European clubs for experience rather than Wimbledon.
It would also be great to be at the top of the consortium's priorities.
I think the most important thing for people is to get some hope back. This season should be written off in terms of judging the new owner.
That'll get round the FFP no problem !
TelMc32 Member
January 26
I think both of those scenarios, players & coaches, could benefit all those involved and ultimately us as fans too. It can't do any harm, for example, to see how the coaches at Liege operate, when they are heading their league & looking to European qualification.
I have wondered whether M. Duchatelet is actually ahead of the game here in terms of the implications of FFP across Europe. He's building a network of clubs at varying levels in their countries and has the opportunity to operate a pool of players/coaches to try and benefit all parties.
Flag Quote · 3Like LOL
ShootersHillGuru Member
January 26
Only playing devils advocate here but it's hard enought to run one football club successfully let alone six especially when you intend to possibly combine their playing assets to suit circumstances. It's going to be one hell of a experiment.
Flag Quote · 1Like LOL
TelMc32 Member
January 26
I don't disagree SHG, but I can see potential for the coaching staff as there will be some times when our seasons don't overlap, if only short periods.
Youth exchanges would be easier to manage, but I'd send 2/3 at a time to ease any settling in abroad (Man U have done this with one of the other Belgian clubs I believe).
For senior players, it could make for easier loans and even permanent transfers. The latter could be on favourable terms/fees, whilst not dis-advantageous to the player and help clubs within the group stay well within FFP. Potential to then invest more in non-group players.
I'm not sure I like the thought of being a group so much. We'd all (fans of each of the clubs) want only what was best for our individual clubs, but I can imagine that there may be benefits in a number of areas for someone who owned them all.
Flag Quote · Like LOL
PragueAddick Member
January 26
I agree with both Tel and SHG. It is a very interesting experiment, but there are a lot of reasons why it could go wrong. That said, I'd rather be a Charlton fan in this set up than an Ujpest fan.
They were shocking during the end of last season, yet managed to fluke their way through the play off system and in to the prem!
Unfortunately play offs are also about a fair amount of luck in my mind
http://uk.soccerway.com/players/michy-batshuayi/177338/
Certainly knows where the net is!
The loan signings of Ajdarevic, Thuram-Ulien and Koc are a case in point. For all we know they might be heavily subsidised, but it's not obvious that the Club couldn't have done at least as well in the loan market without the Duchatelet connection. Similarly, from Standard's perspective, is Charlton the best destination for these players? There is nothing remarkable about the number of loan players at Charlton or the number loaned from Standard.
On the other hand, the transfer of Ghoochannejhad may well be an example of a genuine synergy; a "bargain" transfer might suit Duchatelet if it retains a valuable asset within the network without producing what might be a taxable gain in Standard Liege, whilst a "cheap" signing at Charlton helps to reduce the Club's funding need. However, it's not clear how often this kind of arrangement might apply or, in reality, how much value it really creates.
The network does give Duchatelet control over the development of and the careers of a much larger pool of players than would be possible at just one Club. We also know that there will be a significant bias towards youth development within this pool. However, the ingenious bit would be in finding a way of creating real value out of the opportunity this situation might create, i.e. more value than might be achievable otherwise.
If this is possible, it will likely involve a very thoughtful, perhaps "scientific" analysis of player development needs and of what's required to maximise their value, whilst using the network to meet these needs, thus creating multiple win-win outcomes. If it works, it will be impressive.
An easy win for Duchatelet obviously, though not necessarily for the players (suggesting the possibility of a short-term versus long-term conflict), would be for the "best" Clubs to lend (or sell) their fringe players to the "weaker" Clubs within the network (Standard to Charlton, Standard to Alcorcon, for example), thereby benefitting the weaker Clubs at the expense of the stronger Clubs.
Players will move the other way only when they are considered good enough to step up. There may be some long-term benefit in this, but it's not obvious that it will justify the entire scheme. Moreover, its important to remember that the players will have a view about where they play and who for. And the more valuable they are the more truculent they'll be if they are being "used". It won't be easy for Duchatelet.
The most important thing right now is that the Club has an owner who isn't desperate to sell and who we can, therefore, expect to think long-term. However, he's not going to splash the cash and that will no doubt make it very tough to be competitive at Championship level.
We'll need to wait and see if and how Duchatelet's network adds value, but ironically it may well be that the key factor in whether Duchatelet's experiment works will turn out to be the success of Charlton's academy. Is the emergence of Cousins, Pigott, Lennon, Poyet and the hugely impressive Gomez right on cue? Add Ghoochannejhad, Parzysek and then Solly and Wiggins to that group and perhaps we are already beginning to see the backbone of a very good side or, alternatively, some very hefty transfer fees. If so, it won't be the network that created the value, it will have been wonderful timing.
In answer to Mundells point above I agree that loan players might have been brought in from elsewhere in the same volume. Perhaps the advantage of a network is that players can move much easier between clubs in a group just as workers move between countries working for a multinational and there are no agents involved hyping up the fees and killing deals where it suits them.
I am not saying this is a guaranteed success story about to happen. That would be a bit premature before three home games and a 5th round cup tie! But if these two strikers hit the ground running and there are more players to come then I think many of us might live with an "unconventional" keeper.
All to play for!
"It might be a little early to describe Duchatelet's network as ingenious. Not only is it very early days, but an important question is what benefits does the network provide that cannot be achieved through the normal course of business." ....
...... and couldn't help smiling when I read an article in tonight's Evening Standard entitled, "Jose's got 27 players out on loan .... ".. Twenty seven!!
Chelsea are hoarding young players and lending them out right, left and centre, throughout Europe and at all levels within the English leagues, to Clubs that have been hand-picked for the purpose. Whilst Chelsea are an extreme example, this is common practice amongst the big Clubs and it really isn't obvious what Duchatelet's network can achieve that isn't possible operating independently.
It's true, of course, that the lower tier Clubs within the network might get to take players on loan that may not otherwise be available, but if that is "forced" it won't necessarily achieve the player development objectives that Chelsea and others are aiming to secure. Moreover, the players may reject the strategy.
As an aside, in my view, for what it's worth, the loan system is an important part of the FUP (Football Unfair Play) strategy which has been rolled out over the last 10-20 years and needs radical reform.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Second_Division
It just so happens that younger players offer the ideal balance of a lower cost base (i.e. they are paid less than senior pros) and they are generally an appreciating asset i.e. the more experience they get the more valuable they become. I think all six clubs are Farms, with the players the stock. I doubt anyone out of contract over 28 will be offered a new deal as the investment in wages doesn't generate the return in terms of a transfer fee. We, like SL, will probably have an average age of 22 next season
I'd be surprised if we loan in anyone in, this season may be the exception because of the precarious position we are in and the lack of time to plan. It seams to me that in order for a player to appreciate in value they have to play, which is why players will be moved around the network. Experience adds value. In future we wont want to waste that experience opportunity on another teams player, though I think you will see players being loaned out from the network where appropriate.
This could be Rolands business model. if so, promotion isn't a priority (though I'm sure he won't turn it down), relegation isn't a disaster, the key is developing talent and maximising the value of this by giving it playing time. Cat 1 status for the academy is a priority and I expect us to be pushing for this as soon as possible.
Interesting that it says RD is believed to be seeking clubs in Portugal and Italy.
Charlton Athletic's wealthy new owner began this month by making a humble admission. "I regret what happened – and I am the one who caused it," said Roland Duchâtelet. "I have many qualities but I do not always communicate well and I didn't read the situation right. I'm not perfect – but now we understand each other better and that's why we have signed a charter that stipulates that fans will have a say in issues that closely affect them such as facilities and ticket prices."
Duchâtelet was not addressing fans of Charlton but rather of Standard Liège, one of the other holdings in his ever-expanding empire of football clubs. Last summer there had been mass protests against his running of the Belgian side and a group of fans even tried to ransack his office. Now the hostility has been replaced by admiration for the job being done by Duchâtelet. The 67-year-old's time at Liège offers clues as to what Charlton supporters might expect from the man who paid around £14m for their club five weeks ago.
What provoked the fans' revolt last summer was Duchâtelet's decision to sack a popular manager, Mircea Rednic, and replace him with a little-known 37-year-old from Israel, Guy Luzon. That was interpreted as a cost-cutting measure too far by a man who had already presided over the sale of several of the club's best players since taking over in 2011 and seemed more interested in lining his own deep pockets. Now, however, Liège are top of the Belgian league thanks to the performances of a crop of young players who have blossomed under Luzon, and Duchâtelet's model is not seen as purely self-serving.
Duchâtelet has never been short of ideas. Success in electronics made him one of Belgium's wealthiest men and he has embellished his fortune with successful ventures in a host of other sectors. He has even tried his hand at politics, establishing a small party in 1997 with the aim of radically revamping the Belgian economy so that everyone would be paid a minimum wage whether they worked or not, and tax would be levied not on income but expenditure. His party was eventually absorbed into a bigger one, Open Vlaamse Liberalen en Democraten, and his plans for football also seem to involve handy alliances. A little like Watford and Udinese, Charlton have become part of a chain that is supposed to benefit each link.
Essentially Duchâtelet, who does not disguise his belief that money can be made from football, seems to be operating on the idea that it works out cheaper to buy loads of clubs as opposed to loads of players. Along with Charlton and Liège, he also owns FC Carl Zeiss Jena in Germany and AD Alcorcón in the Spanish second division, while entrusting Hungary's Ujpest FC to his son and another Belgian club, Sint-Truidense, to his long-time partner.
He is also believed to be seeking clubs in Portugal and Italy. While Duchâtelet has specific objectives for each club – for instance, he has long campaigned for the creation of a combined Belgian and Dutch league to enable Liège to grow – it is clear that he also sees how they can help each other. Charlton's January transfer activity was a demonstration.
Last month Charlton sold two of the manager Chris Powell's most trusted players, Yann Kermorgant and Dale Stephens, and drafted in several replacements from abroad, including four (three on loan) from Liège.
The economic logic was clear – Kermorgant and Stephens were nearing the end of their contracts so could have left for nothing in the summer and the link with Liège meant replacements were available at no cost. Powell's challenge is to ensure that makes sense from a football viewpoint: with Charlton in the Championship relegation zone, the new arrivals have to adapt quickly.
The Swedish midfielder Astrit Ajdarevic at least has rudimentary experience of English football – before joining Liège he was on Leicester City's book at the same time as Powell – but the others, such as the goalkeeper Yohann Thuram (cousin of the former France great, Lilian), midfielder Anil Koc and striker Reza Ghoochanneijad do not. While some relegation-threatened clubs might rest key players for an FA Cup tie, one of Powell's goals from Saturday's trip to Sheffield Wednesday will be to use the game to further harden the players he now has to rely for survival.
"I was disappointed to see [Kermorgant and Stephens] go but we can't dwell on that, especially not in the position we're in. We have a number of foreign players that have to get used to the Championship and FA Cup straight away. It's now a different Charlton.
"In the two games we've played since we've made a lot of changes [defeats to Wigan and Birmingham] we've played some very good stuff. Football-wise and possession-wise and in terms of creating chances it was very, very good, but ultimately I'd rather us play badly and have 1% of the game and win. We've got to find a way asap of making sure they fit in and get used to Championship pace. You look at someone like [Mesut] Özil in the Premier League, they find it quite tough because of the relentlessness and physicality of English football, so that's something they've got to get used to. It'll be interesting but it's up to me, my staff, and them, to get them up to speed."
Like any manager of a club with a new owner, especially one not afraid to sack fan favourites, Powell knows his position is precarious. "I'm not naive, I know what happens," he says. "At the moment I'm fine. I'm having to build a relationship with someone who doesn't know me and I don't know him, but it's about trying to make sure we can do the best for the football club."
"I speak to him on a regular basis. I'll give him my take on a game whenever it's appropriate. He's a very busy man. He comes over and normally spends a few days speaking with myself and other staff around the club. Normally I call him at my leisure over the weekend or the beginning of the week and just give him my thoughts."
One of the assets that attracted Duchâtelet to Charlton was the club's fruitful academy. The Standard precedent suggests even more young Addicks can expect to injected into the first team at The Valley - and perhaps into other associated teams around Europe.
If things continue to go well, Powell envisages making the most of being a member of the Duchâtelet web. "Why not use the network of clubs and players that are available?" he says. "I'd be silly not to look at players at Standard. That may be something we look at in the future. I'll be going over to those clubs and speaking to the managers. Why not use it if it's there? In any business you take opportunities to share ideas."