One suspects that FFP will never be properly implemented.
My thoughts also.
With the powers that be deciding that any financial penalties from failing to comply would be given to charity I think this loses all credibility and the threat it may have held over the big boys. Teams like QPR will gladly pay the large financial penalty if it means they can spend over the odds to achieve promotion to the premier league.
Penalties should be large fines that are distributed evenly to the other football league teams or grassroots football AND points deductions (1 point for every million that you over spend to kick in the following season).
Either way teams like Bolton who are drowning in debt (whether it be friendly debt or not) are screwed long term! The model that RD appears to be trying to implement seems a sensible approach. Long term we must be financially self sufficient and grow organically.
Is it true that Standard Liege are profitable at the moment? I have no idea
Someone said during an interview on SkySports website that Roland has already gotten the money back that he paid purchasing SL, so they are definitely making money.
The increase in parachute payments certainly provide an unfair distortion but the gulf between Premiership and Championship clubs has seen the relegated clubs frittering away there cash advantage by paying inflated wages to existing players and taking on new expensive signings; a gamble that more often than not fails in gaining immedia. promotion The RD approach might enable us to compete in changing circumstnces without a matching cash injection or adding to our debt. It may be a big "might" but it certainly provides fuel for some interesting discussions!
Parachute clubs may have increased turnover but will also have bigger squad budgets and wages to cope with, and associated issues. You can't always offload a squad of over paid premier league journeymen, and relegation clauses are rare it seems, but yes I agree it won't be a level playing field, but it will reduce the ability of clubs to accrue large debts from investing in the playing squad.
And depends on who it works for? What are Ujpest or CZJ getting from it? Sure, our primary/only care is Charlton but is it the "networks"?
Fact remains we are still only able to guess what RD has planned, how the farm system works and for whose benefit?
Personally I feel that RD will be good for Charlton long term but I think it will be long term (3 or 4 seasons) and the period till then will be less than comfortable.
Absolutely agree Henry, Roland should not be judged on this season, next season or even the season after that. The club needs stability and to once again become a sustainable business.
I have confidence that we will see some great days at our club again, just don’t expect anything immediately.
Roland is a clever, shrewd and very knowledgeable business man. His aim is to make money from Charlton and he knows that things need to improve on and off the field for that to happen. Just give it time.
I'm more than happy to give Roland time - but just wish he would commit to giving Chris Powell time. That's where we need the stability right now to get us out of the relegation scrap. Otherwise the Prem becomes a very distant dream.
It is widely believed at CAFC that Leicester, for one, will just pay the FFP fine as a price of "doing business" , I.e. spending on players to get to FAPL money.
Until a proper football governing body replaces the FAPL and FL, such ridiculous situations will continue
If RD structures it correctly, I can see the possibility of all the clubs in his stable benefitting, chiefly from being able to offer young players a clear route from low level football through to the top leagues. I am sure, given the premiership riches on offer, that CAFC will be at the apex of this pyramid, possibly alongside SL.
Good young players can be retained longer in the system, progressing as their development allows, and when a really big club comes in for them, the maximum value can be realised as the financial imperative to sell to survive is not there. I imagine Jonjo and Carl Jenkinson would have been just the type of players to benefit - Liverpool made more profit out of Jonjo than we did, and under RD's model the chances of this happening will be reduced.
I understand the fears of loss of identity, but surely our academy must have been a key attraction to RD in his decision to buy us, probably moreso than the make up of the senior squad. If this is the case, I can see us obtaining category 1 status and being better able to fend off unwanted offers for our juniors in future, which may just have the effect of reinforcing rather than reducing the feeling of Charltonness that is so much a part of supporting this club. We will have to wait and see.
Yes - scouting and loaning when all the clubs are stable will be centrally co-ordinated - so we benefit from a much bigger scouting budget - as do the other clubs. Then based on the relative strength of the leagues the clubs are in, loans can be made. It does make a lot of sense in that regards.
It is widely believed at CAFC that Leicester, for one, will just pay the FFP fine as a price of "doing business" , I.e. spending on players to get to FAPL money.
Until a proper football governing body replaces the FAPL and FL, such ridiculous situations will continue
That's ok until their players contracts run out and they are not allowed to sign any more due to the transfer embargo. As I understand it they will then need three seasons of compliance before they can sign a player again. That must make these clubs wary. The fine, without the transfer ban, is only applicable if a Championship team is promoted to the Premier League. That means that the club must get promoted or they will be in real trouble - and not just financial trouble.
It is widely believed at CAFC that Leicester, for one, will just pay the FFP fine as a price of "doing business" , I.e. spending on players to get to FAPL money.
Until a proper football governing body replaces the FAPL and FL, such ridiculous situations will continue
That's ok until their players contracts run out and they are not allowed to sign any more due to the transfer embargo. As I understand it they will then need three seasons of compliance before they can sign a player again. That must make these clubs wary. The fine, without the transfer ban, is only applicable if a Championship team is promoted to the Premier League. That means that the club must get promoted or they will be in real trouble - and not just financial trouble.
One would have thought that the FA would have made it a condition that you have to pass the fair play by a set day towards the end of the season or you get a 20 point deduction.
What about the purchase of the Polish fella from outside the network, doesn't seem to fit your view?
PP was paid for in Euros, so that instantly makes him cheaper. His former club were also apparently in deep financial trouble, so we likely got him for a bargain. Lets say the club paid 500k Euros for him. That's only about 400k pounds. If he scores even ten goals at this level he could be sold to a non-network club for a million pounds. Same goes with Reza. It sounds like Standard don't want Reza, and we likely bought him for next to nothing, so we could sell him for quite a bit if he nets a few.
Our position in the network is actually quite good because we're the second largest club in it. Can't see Championship (or even League One) players wanting to go to the mighty Alacorn or Ujpest FC! Unless SL wants some of our players we will just sell them and the money will go back into the club.
I'm telling you, as someone who has a business degree from a Yank university, this business model is going to be of great benefit to the club if it works. RD is a shrewd businessman, I have faith in him.
By the way, Katrien Meire is a lawyer. She's likely here to ensure everything we do with the network is in line with existing rules, regulations and laws.
This is the Liege bit of RD's empire in 2014 and it gives you an idea of how players are being moved around. Note it includes Sint Truiden (RD's partner's club now), and Alcorcon, his recent Spanish acquisition. This page looks a little bit odd, as some players appear in both the ins and outs, but that's probably in anticipation of players returning from loan spells. uk.soccerway.com/teams/belgium/standard-de-liege/230/transfers/
What happens to the cunning master plan if UEFA decides it gives RD's clubs an unfair advantage and legislates against it?
Is it true that Standard Liege are profitable at the moment? I have no idea
Someone said during an interview on SkySports website that Roland has already gotten the money back that he paid purchasing SL, so they are definitely making money.
AmericanAddick, there are plenty of ways of "making money" out of a business without the business itself turning a profit, usually none of them good for the long-term health of the business.
Is it true that Standard Liege are profitable at the moment? I have no idea
Someone said during an interview on SkySports website that Roland has already gotten the money back that he paid purchasing SL, so they are definitely making money.
Don't know who said that, or whether it's at all true, but there is a big difference between him making his money back and the club being profitable.
"PP was paid for in Euros, so that instantly makes him cheaper."
"I'm telling you, as someone who has a business degree from a Yank university,"
Brilliant stuff
He's cheaper in the sense that you are paying for him in Euros instead of Pounds. Tell me where in the UK are you going to get a 20 year old first-team player who has played 52 times and scored 29 goals for 500k?
Is it true that Standard Liege are profitable at the moment? I have no idea
Someone said during an interview on SkySports website that Roland has already gotten the money back that he paid purchasing SL, so they are definitely making money.
AmericanAddick, there are plenty of ways of "making money" out of a business without the business itself turning a profit, usually none of them good for the long-term health of the business.
True, but it sounded from the interview that this was from the true financial state of the club, not some crap way of getting your investment back like what the Glazers did at Man U.
It is widely believed at CAFC that Leicester, for one, will just pay the FFP fine as a price of "doing business" , I.e. spending on players to get to FAPL money.
Until a proper football governing body replaces the FAPL and FL, such ridiculous situations will continue
That's ok until their players contracts run out and they are not allowed to sign any more due to the transfer embargo. As I understand it they will then need three seasons of compliance before they can sign a player again. That must make these clubs wary. The fine, without the transfer ban, is only applicable if a Championship team is promoted to the Premier League. That means that the club must get promoted or they will be in real trouble - and not just financial trouble.
That's interesting as I have not seen anywhere how a club demonstrates compliance after having been frozen out of player registration next January.
I'm afraid your first point doesn't hold in all cases. Say Leicester and Forest both overspend and Leicester go up but Forest don't. Leicester are in a different league in 2014/15, pay their penalty but there is no sanction re player registration. Meanwhile Forest will be blocked. If the Championship do not impose the proper penalty then all the other top clubs who don't go up but stay in budget will be up in arms! We will find out in less than a year and I suspect it works to CAFC advantage?
"PP was paid for in Euros, so that instantly makes him cheaper."
"I'm telling you, as someone who has a business degree from a Yank university,"
Brilliant stuff
If we're being pedantic, technically that is true... RD is Belgian, his firms are by majority Belgian. Therefore his money is in Euro's and doesn't have to exchanged for pounds; this means there are no transaction costs - making PP cheaper.
"PP was paid for in Euros, so that instantly makes him cheaper."
"I'm telling you, as someone who has a business degree from a Yank university,"
Brilliant stuff
If we're being pedantic, technically that is true... RD is Belgian, his firms are by majority Belgian. Therefore his money is in Euro's and doesn't have to exchanged for pounds; this means there are no transaction costs - making PP cheaper.
Extremely pedantic : - )
if he'd given David White a call he could have a sorted a deal for him anyway.
"PP was paid for in Euros, so that instantly makes him cheaper."
"I'm telling you, as someone who has a business degree from a Yank university,"
Brilliant stuff
If we're being pedantic, technically that is true... RD is Belgian, his firms are by majority Belgian. Therefore his money is in Euro's and doesn't have to exchanged for pounds; this means there are no transaction costs - making PP cheaper.
Surely not, unless something VERY interesting is going on. I assume PP has been bought by CAFC, and CAFC holds the registration. In which case there are 'transaction costs", if by this you mean currency conversion.
To be honest I wasn't sure what AmericanAddick meant in the first place by 'makes him cheaper'. Cheaper than what? I thought he simply meant it was 500k in euros, whereas he was thinking in pounds. But he being an American I'd have thought he would think in dollars anyway.
"PP was paid for in Euros, so that instantly makes him cheaper."
"I'm telling you, as someone who has a business degree from a Yank university,"
Brilliant stuff
If we're being pedantic, technically that is true... RD is Belgian, his firms are by majority Belgian. Therefore his money is in Euro's and doesn't have to exchanged for pounds; this means there are no transaction costs - making PP cheaper.
Surely not, unless something VERY interesting is going on. I assume PP has been bought by CAFC, and CAFC holds the registration. In which case there are 'transaction costs", if by this you mean currency conversion.
To be honest I wasn't sure what AmericanAddick meant in the first place by 'makes him cheaper'. Cheaper than what? I thought he simply meant it was 500k in euros, whereas he was thinking in pounds. But he being an American I'd have thought he would think in dollars anyway.
Or have I misunderstood both of you?
Because AA is trolling and has been ever since he signed up : - )
"PP was paid for in Euros, so that instantly makes him cheaper."
"I'm telling you, as someone who has a business degree from a Yank university,"
Brilliant stuff
If we're being pedantic, technically that is true... RD is Belgian, his firms are by majority Belgian. Therefore his money is in Euro's and doesn't have to exchanged for pounds; this means there are no transaction costs - making PP cheaper.
Surely not, unless something VERY interesting is going on. I assume PP has been bought by CAFC, and CAFC holds the registration. In which case there are 'transaction costs", if by this you mean currency conversion.
To be honest I wasn't sure what AmericanAddick meant in the first place by 'makes him cheaper'. Cheaper than what? I thought he simply meant it was 500k in euros, whereas he was thinking in pounds. But he being an American I'd have thought he would think in dollars anyway.
Or have I misunderstood both of you?
Because AA is trolling and has been ever since he signed up : - )
Ah how naive I am, for one so old. My only question then is, why do people do it?.....
"PP was paid for in Euros, so that instantly makes him cheaper."
"I'm telling you, as someone who has a business degree from a Yank university,"
Brilliant stuff
If we're being pedantic, technically that is true... RD is Belgian, his firms are by majority Belgian. Therefore his money is in Euro's and doesn't have to exchanged for pounds; this means there are no transaction costs - making PP cheaper.
Surely not, unless something VERY interesting is going on. I assume PP has been bought by CAFC, and CAFC holds the registration. In which case there are 'transaction costs", if by this you mean currency conversion.
To be honest I wasn't sure what AmericanAddick meant in the first place by 'makes him cheaper'. Cheaper than what? I thought he simply meant it was 500k in euros, whereas he was thinking in pounds. But he being an American I'd have thought he would think in dollars anyway.
Or have I misunderstood both of you?
Because AA is trolling and has been ever since he signed up : - )
Ah how naive I am, for one so old. My only question then is, why do people do it?.....
Who knows?
fragile amour propre most likely but who really cares why, just wish they would do it somewhere else : - )
Whatever the motivation of the OP I think the discussion has merits. I would like to thank Mansfield Park for the link - with that number of players leaving Standard Liege it looks like there is a plan. We don't have long to wait to see how it works first hand.
Whatever the motivation of the OP I think the discussion has merits. I would like to thank Mansfield Park for the link - with that number of players leaving Standard Liege it looks like there is a plan. We don't have long to wait to see how it works first hand.
Thanks. Thinking a little bit more about it, I don't think RD will be able to repeat this on a similar scale in future often (9 players out of 13 moved out of SL in Jan 2014 went to his other clubs, including family-owned clubs). I also don't think he can use CAFC as a "giving" club in a similar way because:
- SL only play 30 games in the Pro League - with 6 games to go they are 10 pts clear; they will probably be champions within 2 more games, i.e. this month - their league season ends in March, they are out of their domestic cup and they finished bottom of their Europa League group.
Therefore, their squad strength could be significantly but safely depleted in this year's January window. Obviously, with us playing a 46 games marathon, a very different logic applies.
Comments
With the powers that be deciding that any financial penalties from failing to comply would be given to charity I think this loses all credibility and the threat it may have held over the big boys. Teams like QPR will gladly pay the large financial penalty if it means they can spend over the odds to achieve promotion to the premier league.
Penalties should be large fines that are distributed evenly to the other football league teams or grassroots football AND points deductions (1 point for every million that you over spend to kick in the following season).
Either way teams like Bolton who are drowning in debt (whether it be friendly debt or not) are screwed long term! The model that RD appears to be trying to implement seems a sensible approach. Long term we must be financially self sufficient and grow organically.
I have confidence that we will see some great days at our club again, just don’t expect anything immediately.
Roland is a clever, shrewd and very knowledgeable business man. His aim is to make money from Charlton and he knows that things need to improve on and off the field for that to happen. Just give it time.
Until a proper football governing body replaces the FAPL and FL, such ridiculous situations will continue
Good young players can be retained longer in the system, progressing as their development allows, and when a really big club comes in for them, the maximum value can be realised as the financial imperative to sell to survive is not there. I imagine Jonjo and Carl Jenkinson would have been just the type of players to benefit - Liverpool made more profit out of Jonjo than we did, and under RD's model the chances of this happening will be reduced.
I understand the fears of loss of identity, but surely our academy must have been a key attraction to RD in his decision to buy us, probably moreso than the make up of the senior squad. If this is the case, I can see us obtaining category 1 status and being better able to fend off unwanted offers for our juniors in future, which may just have the effect of reinforcing rather than reducing the feeling of Charltonness that is so much a part of supporting this club. We will have to wait and see.
Our position in the network is actually quite good because we're the second largest club in it. Can't see Championship (or even League One) players wanting to go to the mighty Alacorn or Ujpest FC! Unless SL wants some of our players we will just sell them and the money will go back into the club.
I'm telling you, as someone who has a business degree from a Yank university, this business model is going to be of great benefit to the club if it works. RD is a shrewd businessman, I have faith in him.
By the way, Katrien Meire is a lawyer. She's likely here to ensure everything we do with the network is in line with existing rules, regulations and laws.
uk.soccerway.com/teams/belgium/standard-de-liege/230/transfers/
What happens to the cunning master plan if UEFA decides it gives RD's clubs an unfair advantage and legislates against it?
"I'm telling you, as someone who has a business degree from a Yank university,"
Brilliant stuff
I think AA is stuwall
True, but it sounded from the interview that this was from the true financial state of the club, not some crap way of getting your investment back like what the Glazers did at Man U.
I'm afraid your first point doesn't hold in all cases. Say Leicester and Forest both overspend and Leicester go up but Forest don't. Leicester are in a different league in 2014/15, pay their penalty but there is no sanction re player registration. Meanwhile Forest will be blocked. If the Championship do not impose the proper penalty then all the other top clubs who don't go up but stay in budget will be up in arms! We will find out in less than a year and I suspect it works to CAFC advantage?
Extremely pedantic : - )
if he'd given David White a call he could have a sorted a deal for him anyway.
To be honest I wasn't sure what AmericanAddick meant in the first place by 'makes him cheaper'. Cheaper than what? I thought he simply meant it was 500k in euros, whereas he was thinking in pounds. But he being an American I'd have thought he would think in dollars anyway.
Or have I misunderstood both of you?
fragile amour propre most likely but who really cares why, just wish they would do it somewhere else : - )
- SL only play 30 games in the Pro League
- with 6 games to go they are 10 pts clear; they will probably be champions within 2 more games, i.e. this month
- their league season ends in March, they are out of their domestic cup and they finished bottom of their Europa League group.
Therefore, their squad strength could be significantly but safely depleted in this year's January window. Obviously, with us playing a 46 games marathon, a very different logic applies.