That is why it is very important we don't look to compete against them on who can be the scummiest - given the choice - I doubt any new supporters would pick Millwall over us if they are half decent and if they are not - we want them to support Millwall. We need Millwall to attract the cretins and pathetic BNPers and leave the decent fans for us. Our club's support will grow because families/new supporters are attracted - the Valley should be a friendly, exciting and accomodating place. I like reading that away supporters seem to like coming here. We should never let our standards drop - support the team vocally and with passion, but also pride ourselves in being fair minded and decent as we undoubtably are.
What have Charlton and Millwall got to do with politics?
That's no different to me saying I'm glad we've got Fulham/Palace nearby to attract the cretins and pathetic Labour supporters...
You almost had a good point SE10 until your comment about leftie cretins, as Muttley only mentiond BNP members which really do have no place in a modern society, were as you might not agree with left wing people they are not anti-society like extreme right wing people are, your second comment makes any comment on this issue meaningless in the eyes of any right thinking person who believes in a modern society, which as an optimist i would hope is most people on here.
Wrote exactly the same as Muttley but just swapped the political party, my point was political views have nothing to do with the whole Charlton v Millwall debate yet Muttley seemed intent on saying he doesn't want other people to be Charlton fans if they support a different political party.
Respect for editing it but i will add in case i misunderstood your point, i thought with your second comment you were defending the BNP by attacking left wing views, which if that was the case then my point stands.
All views are welcome in a modern society left or right wing, except extreme right wing which do not believe in a modern society, so have no right to be a part of the world in 2012.
So i agree with Muttley i would prefer we did not have BNP supporters at the club(or part of the world) especially considering football is a game for all races/nationalities and we currently have a well respected black manager and club legend in charge of this great club we all love.
always surprises me how many closet (and not so closet) racists can be found on here.... I guess it is naive of me to think that just because somebody supports Charlton that they are alright...
It's only a matter of time before a player/club will follow through these "allegations" of racist abuse using the correct channels, on what goes on down at that hole. Then maybe something will happen. Leicester next.
For what it's worth, I don't think Millwall or their fans are racist - some of their fans are, some of our fans are, but I suspect the tolerance levels in their ground are very different to ours.
What's disappointing is that Millwall have seen fit to attack our players for posting on Twitter rather than suggesting they will discuss the matter with them and take action if they can find any evidence to support it, as part of their campaign against racism. They seem to have got so defensive - I guess they're well practised in defending the indefensible to be fair - that they've lost sight of any kind of constructive message, and a definitive public stance on the behaviour of their fans.
To be balanced, though, I hope to see something in due course about the action Charlton are taking against the fan who threw the seat.
Can we please stop and think when replying to threads. Too much over reaction and "I want to win" attitudes at the start of discussions. We are a family, fairy disjointed like the rest of society but nevertheless bonded by the same desires and passions. It should not take hundreds of posts to finally understand the other persons point of view, and early responses could be a little more thoughtful as we are all individuals with complex thoughts, ideals and so forth. No point in being united on the terraces if we cannot show a modicom of initial respect on CL. I am fairly bereft of social skills myself and few people understand or like me in the real life, but I have a good heart and compassion for my fellow man, and the fact that I can only express this on a forum tells you that all of us can so easily misjudge and condemn with little or no knowledge of the person we are initially disagreeing / arguing with. Theres a new feel to CAFC, lets keep that feeling 'cos I'm loving it.
Bolloxbolder - 'shame on me' for not reporting? Erm, excuse me. Was I supposed to turn round, speak to the guy and/or photograph him and/or point him out to a steward in order to 'report' him? I've already said that I was a Charlton fan in a Millwall area, sitting with my brother and his 11 and 8 year old boys. Be sensible! s the suggestion that I now call 999 and report that I heard a nameless, faceless idiot racially abuse 3 black men? Where's my evidence? What exactly are they liekly to be able to do about it? As everyone keeps saying, I appear to be the only one who heard anything so there's no case to answer, is there??!! I wish I'd never bothered with this topic. The shame is not mine and I do not appreciate being scolded in this way! Maybe I'll close the topic.
Bolloxbolder - 'shame on me' for not reporting? Erm, excuse me. Was I supposed to turn round, speak to the guy and/or photograph him and/or point him out to a steward in order to 'report' him? I've already said that I was a Charlton fan in a Millwall area, sitting with my brother and his 11 and 8 year old boys. Be sensible! s the suggestion that I now call 999 and report that I heard a nameless, faceless idiot racially abuse 3 black men? Where's my evidence? What exactly are they liekly to be able to do about it? As everyone keeps saying, I appear to be the only one who heard anything so there's no case to answer, is there??!! I wish I'd never bothered with this topic. The shame is not mine and I do not appreciate being scolded in this way! Maybe I'll close the topic.
Meldrew I certainly don't condemn you.
There are some people on here who are very good at minding everybody else's business and telling them what they should be doing.
If I was a gambling man I'd put money on them not being seen for dust if the roles were reversed!
No right thinking Charlton fan can condemn you in my opinion.
Meldrew - I was not the only Lifer who said report it after the match. You chose not to, for reasons only known to you. To me you have become the same as the non voter at election time who as a result forfeit their right to comment on the running of their country, but moan otherwise.
''There are some people on here who are very good at minding everybody else's business and telling them what they should be doing.''
It was this line that made me chuckle, from a man that didnt go Millwall but continually moaned on the flare thread about some sections of the support that did.
I wasnt talking about Meldrew naming them there and then as that would have been suicidal but you can easily make a call to the 101 number. Not 999. I dont really understand why he's getting so out of his pram.
Could just give them his seat number then CCTV can be focused on that area.
Well gosh. A man doesn't endanger himself or choose to become a (possible) public figure by challenging or reporting bad behaviour and people on here make totally unfounded comments.
Go and sit in the same area as Meldrew did last week and set the balling rolling yourselves. I wish you luck and fully support your cause.
''There are some people on here who are very good at minding everybody else's business and telling them what they should be doing.''
It was this line that made me chuckle, from a man that didnt go Millwall but continually moaned on the flare thread about some sections of the support that did.
You obviously fail to see the distinction between a general condemnation of throwing incendiary devices and other missiles in crowds and a specific condemnation of an individual for not reporting an incident where the evidence was sketchy at best.
Had you read my posts properly on the "flare" thread I made it quite clear that having found their spiritual home in SE 16 those who embraced that kind of behaviour should stay there every week.
I find it difficult to see all these things in black and white (no pun intended). I think we all have our doubts about the treatment of John Terry after his brush with racism, but what the whole affair did show us is that there is a lot of attention (none of it good) on any player that 'complains' about racism.
The grief levelled at Chelsea and Mikel because they dared to report a racist comment, combined with the way Anton Ferdinand was treated, would leave me feeling that if I was abused in that way (and I do understand that I can't, really, understand as I'm a spoiled, white middle class male) I would brush it under the carpet and leave someone else to stand up for what's right, and take all the attention (and abuse) that comes with it.
I would, however, have put something on Twitter immediately after the event only to remove it later when the implications of daring to speak out became more obvious.
I'm surprised that any of us on here struggle to accept what the players did, or what the club has subsequently done. Rightly or wrongly there is a lot of racism in the world and sometimes the fight just can't be won, so you have to respect the rights of those that were abused not to take it on.
A lot of damage can be caused by accusations, esp those of a racial nature in the current climate - mud sticks!!
I think use of social media by players needs to be controlled/stopped. I agree with some millwall fans on this tbh. The two players should not moan about it publicly if they are then going to change/withdraw/not follow up them claims and I would be pissed off with it if I was them.
Either it happened or it didn't ( and I have no reason to trust our players anymore than I do a millwall or Charlton fan I don't know). If it did happen and they don't follow it up officially they are not exactly helping or supporting the kick it out movement or fellow future black players who have to play down there are they. If it didn't happen and they lied they should be punished imo.
I detest millwall fc and a lot of its support but having an ex wife who worked for them, I know the efforts they go to on this front. And accusations like this ( just like the ridiclious sun reporter 'seagull incident) help no one in football.
I think it's totally wrong of Frimpong, Haynes and Meldrew66 to have said anything regarding hearing racist abuse at The Den. All three are obviously mistaken. It is clear that Millwall do not have a problem with racist abuse and chanting otherwise the anti racist stance that the club take in supporting every possible anti racist initiative would have undoubtedly done something about it if it ever were to happen.
Either it happened or it didn't ( and I have no reason to trust our players anymore than I do a millwall or Charlton fan I don't know). If it did happen and they don't follow it up officially they are not exactly helping or supporting the kick it out movement or fellow future black players who have to play down there are they. If it didn't happen and they lied they should be punished imo.
I agree with this. Having made the comments (doesn't matter that it was Twitter) they should have followed it up IMHO
Even if they didn't want to go the lengths of a police report they should have said "this is what was said, I'm not happy but at the request of CAFC and MFC I'm not taking further action".
Would be better if they did make a complaint to the FA and/or the police so some action would have to be taken but I suspect that Millwall are more interested in protecting their reputation short term than doing something about solving the problem long term.
I find it difficult to see all these things in black and white (no pun intended). I think we all have our doubts about the treatment of John Terry after his brush with racism, but what the whole affair did show us is that there is a lot of attention (none of it good) on any player that 'complains' about racism.
The grief levelled at Chelsea and Mikel because they dared to report a racist comment, combined with the way Anton Ferdinand was treated, would leave me feeling that if I was abused in that way (and I do understand that I can't, really, understand as I'm a spoiled, white middle class male) I would brush it under the carpet and leave someone else to stand up for what's right, and take all the attention (and abuse) that comes with it.
Chelsea and Mikel got grief because they were lightning fast to make accusations that turned out to have no basis in fact, and could have curtailed a professional referees career in doing so. Which is not to condone racism but it is a two way street, if the SBL or other such morons will claim every single thing as racist, the stigma of actual, dangerous racism will just be another pebble in the avalanche.
Either it happened or it didn't ( and I have no reason to trust our players anymore than I do a millwall or Charlton fan I don't know). If it did happen and they don't follow it up officially they are not exactly helping or supporting the kick it out movement or fellow future black players who have to play down there are they. If it didn't happen and they lied they should be punished imo.
I agree with this. Having made the comments (doesn't matter that it was Twitter) they should have followed it up IMHO
Even if they didn't want to go the lengths of a police report they should have said "this is what was said, I'm not happy but at the request of CAFC and MFC I'm not taking further action".
Would be better if they did make a complaint to the FA and/or the police so some action would have to be taken but I suspect that Millwall are more interested in protecting their reputation short term than doing something about solving the problem long term.
I don't think putting out a statement in the manner suggested is any more helpful than putting it on Twitter - it's just a more formal way of doing exactly the same thing, accusing Millwall fans of racist behaviour, and by leaving it as "this is what happened but I'm not taking it any further so case closed", it's effectively a very public trial without jury, with Millwall automatically found guilty without the opportunity to defend themselves or conduct a proper investigation.
I'm not by any means setting out to defend Millwall fans, but I think if you're someone in the public eye (such as a footballer) then you shouldn't make accusations unless you're willing to follow it through to the end so that guilt can properly be established.
I remember about 15 years ago a Darkus Howe documentary on the BBC where he attended a Charlton match (he picked Charlton because it was the nearest ground to the BNP's base in Welling) and clearly went with an agenda to make sure he found and witnessed some racist behaviour. He claimed to have heard racist abuse towards an opposition player and this was broadcast as fact without any evidence or any right to reply, tarnishing the club's reputation in the process, POSSIBLY unfairly.
Similarly, there was an incident a few years ago where someone from a black newspaper went to a Millwall vs Brighton match and published a story claiming that he'd heard chants of "Seig Heil", when in fact he'd been listening to Brighton fans chanting "Seagulls".
Probably not made my point very eloquently, but think the way this has been handled achieves nothing positive at all, just gives people an opportunity to either speculate that Millwall fans are racist, or to speculate that black players fabricate stories of racist abuse.
Fact: it happenned. Fact: I can't 'prove' it. Nothing more to be said. Will video footage of a man's face in a pose that might suggest he was making 'monkey' noises 'prove' a case? The answer is NO and therefore that's the sole reason why I see no benefit in reporting to the police what I heard or where it came from. Surely people can understand that?
Either it happened or it didn't ( and I have no reason to trust our players anymore than I do a millwall or Charlton fan I don't know). If it did happen and they don't follow it up officially they are not exactly helping or supporting the kick it out movement or fellow future black players who have to play down there are they. If it didn't happen and they lied they should be punished imo.
I agree with this. Having made the comments (doesn't matter that it was Twitter) they should have followed it up IMHO
Even if they didn't want to go the lengths of a police report they should have said "this is what was said, I'm not happy but at the request of CAFC and MFC I'm not taking further action".
Would be better if they did make a complaint to the FA and/or the police so some action would have to be taken but I suspect that Millwall are more interested in protecting their reputation short term than doing something about solving the problem long term.
I don't think putting out a statement in the manner suggested is any more helpful than putting it on Twitter - it's just a more formal way of doing exactly the same thing, accusing Millwall fans of racist behaviour, and by leaving it as "this is what happened but I'm not taking it any further so case closed", it's effectively a very public trial without jury, with Millwall automatically found guilty without the opportunity to defend themselves or conduct a proper investigation.
I'm not by any means setting out to defend Millwall fans, but I think if you're someone in the public eye (such as a footballer) then you shouldn't make accusations unless you're willing to follow it through to the end so that guilt can properly be established. .
I think you are right. Just adding another as i suggested statement wouldn't help.
I can see why people don't want to be the one in the limelight but someone needs to be Rosa Parkes.
Millwall could also do themselves a lot of good by putting mics in the area and undercover stewards but I doubt they will in fear of what they might find.
Fact: it happenned. Fact: I can't 'prove' it. Nothing more to be said. Will video footage of a man's face in a pose that might suggest he was making 'monkey' noises 'prove' a case? The answer is NO and therefore that's the sole reason why I see no benefit in reporting to the police what I heard or where it came from. Surely people can understand that?
I do agree, however if you ring 101, and let the police know at least what the block/row the abuse came from, then they will keep observation on that area, and may catch these idiots in the very near future.
Comments
That's no different to me saying I'm glad we've got Fulham/Palace nearby to attract the cretins and pathetic Labour supporters...
Edited that part now anyway!
All views are welcome in a modern society left or right wing, except extreme right wing which do not believe in a modern society, so have no right to be a part of the world in 2012.
So i agree with Muttley i would prefer we did not have BNP supporters at the club(or part of the world) especially considering football is a game for all races/nationalities and we currently have a well respected black manager and club legend in charge of this great club we all love.
society still has a long way to go it seems
So depressing on so many different levels.
If this had of happened, there would have been a riot.
What's disappointing is that Millwall have seen fit to attack our players for posting on Twitter rather than suggesting they will discuss the matter with them and take action if they can find any evidence to support it, as part of their campaign against racism. They seem to have got so defensive - I guess they're well practised in defending the indefensible to be fair - that they've lost sight of any kind of constructive message, and a definitive public stance on the behaviour of their fans.
To be balanced, though, I hope to see something in due course about the action Charlton are taking against the fan who threw the seat.
There are some people on here who are very good at minding everybody else's business and telling them what they should be doing.
If I was a gambling man I'd put money on them not being seen for dust if the roles were reversed!
No right thinking Charlton fan can condemn you in my opinion.
It was this line that made me chuckle, from a man that didnt go Millwall but continually moaned on the flare thread about some sections of the support that did.
Could just give them his seat number then CCTV can be focused on that area.
Go and sit in the same area as Meldrew did last week and set the balling rolling yourselves. I wish you luck and fully support your cause.
Had you read my posts properly on the "flare" thread I made it quite clear that having found their spiritual home in SE 16 those who embraced that kind of behaviour should stay there every week.
The grief levelled at Chelsea and Mikel because they dared to report a racist comment, combined with the way Anton Ferdinand was treated, would leave me feeling that if I was abused in that way (and I do understand that I can't, really, understand as I'm a spoiled, white middle class male) I would brush it under the carpet and leave someone else to stand up for what's right, and take all the attention (and abuse) that comes with it.
I would, however, have put something on Twitter immediately after the event only to remove it later when the implications of daring to speak out became more obvious.
I'm surprised that any of us on here struggle to accept what the players did, or what the club has subsequently done. Rightly or wrongly there is a lot of racism in the world and sometimes the fight just can't be won, so you have to respect the rights of those that were abused not to take it on.
I think use of social media by players needs to be controlled/stopped. I agree with some millwall fans on this tbh. The two players should not moan about it publicly if they are then going to change/withdraw/not follow up them claims and I would be pissed off with it if I was them.
Either it happened or it didn't ( and I have no reason to trust our players anymore than I do a millwall or Charlton fan I don't know). If it did happen and they don't follow it up officially they are not exactly helping or supporting the kick it out movement or fellow future black players who have to play down there are they. If it didn't happen and they lied they should be punished imo.
I detest millwall fc and a lot of its support but having an ex wife who worked for them, I know the efforts they go to on this front. And accusations like this ( just like the ridiclious sun reporter 'seagull incident) help no one in football.
Even if they didn't want to go the lengths of a police report they should have said "this is what was said, I'm not happy but at the request of CAFC and MFC I'm not taking further action".
Would be better if they did make a complaint to the FA and/or the police so some action would have to be taken but I suspect that Millwall are more interested in protecting their reputation short term than doing something about solving the problem long term.
I'm not by any means setting out to defend Millwall fans, but I think if you're someone in the public eye (such as a footballer) then you shouldn't make accusations unless you're willing to follow it through to the end so that guilt can properly be established.
I remember about 15 years ago a Darkus Howe documentary on the BBC where he attended a Charlton match (he picked Charlton because it was the nearest ground to the BNP's base in Welling) and clearly went with an agenda to make sure he found and witnessed some racist behaviour. He claimed to have heard racist abuse towards an opposition player and this was broadcast as fact without any evidence or any right to reply, tarnishing the club's reputation in the process, POSSIBLY unfairly.
Similarly, there was an incident a few years ago where someone from a black newspaper went to a Millwall vs Brighton match and published a story claiming that he'd heard chants of "Seig Heil", when in fact he'd been listening to Brighton fans chanting "Seagulls".
Probably not made my point very eloquently, but think the way this has been handled achieves nothing positive at all, just gives people an opportunity to either speculate that Millwall fans are racist, or to speculate that black players fabricate stories of racist abuse.
I can see why people don't want to be the one in the limelight but someone needs to be Rosa Parkes.
Millwall could also do themselves a lot of good by putting mics in the area and undercover stewards but I doubt they will in fear of what they might find.
I do agree, however if you ring 101, and let the police know at least what the block/row the abuse came from, then they will keep observation on that area, and may catch these idiots in the very near future.