I'm a little unresolved on this. Personally I'm not [yet] convinced that comparisons between race and sexuality are entirely valid, and I recall [the gay] Matt Lucas's comments on the Clarke Carlisle documentary that he found the fans' so-called 'homophobic' chanting against Brighton as being very funny.
We can be such a sensitive lot in this country sometimes. Whilst I don't want to go down the 'it's only banter' line I'm struggling with the argument about the terraces frightening people off. Can we really think of that many examples where terrace taunts have driven them away from football? Sol Campbell might be the closest, but his crime was a football one and much more serious in the Spurs fans' minds. Anyway, there's enough bad behaviour among footballers that's much riper game for terrace hostility, and I'm quite sure Lee Hughes and Marlon King would get it from the terraces considerably more fiercely. Personally I think it's more of a career thing for the footballers, a lack of confidence that an old school manager would think it as irrelevant as the modern player's team mates would do.
Society isn't going to get more comfortable with gay people if they're hiding, nor if it's thrust in its face (for want of a better phrase). Stonewall don't help, in my opinion, by pretending there are more gay people than there are (roughly 1.5% according to the last census, which would mean at least 85% are keeping quiet if their 1/10 claims are accurate, assuming some heterosexuals declined the question also). It's also incorrect to imply that failing to agree with Stonewall means you're homophobic. It really doesn't.
Rainbow laces will do little, if that. It strikes me that if they really wanted to get the issue out in the open they should persuade every gay footballer to come out over a weekend. We'd probably find at least one gay player and/or coaching staff in every football club, which would somewhat naturally constrain the extent of terrace chanting (notwithstanding the type of idiot who can offer racism to the opposition but except their own black players). It would also offer more than a challenge for any tiny-minded club management, and the media would look pretty silly to call it out. Again, for want of a better phrase. :-)
I think its a nice idea the laces thing, a way players can show support for fellow players who might think people wouldn't accept them, hope its a success
im 14 and one thing i noticed is no one comes out at school because if they do they might aswell commit suicide, people have "banter" with me for being fat and ginger so imagine if someone said they were gay. if someone came out i would stand up for them, i dont liek people saying faggot either. I hear that loads at skool, not to mention the jew goal or u jew
"I hear that loads at skool"? Please listen during the English lessons, young lad.
@Viewfinder Are you joking ? The young lad's basically just admitted he's being bullied at school and you're digging him out about grammar. I despair about some of our fans.
Drama king!
You despair of some of our fans over a jokey comment like that?!!! Your life must be tough.
im 14 and one thing i noticed is no one comes out at school because if they do they might aswell commit suicide, people have "banter" with me for being fat and ginger so imagine if someone said they were gay. if someone came out i would stand up for them, i dont liek people saying faggot either. I hear that loads at skool, not to mention the jew goal or u jew
"I hear that loads at skool"? Please listen during the English lessons, young lad.
@Viewfinder Are you joking ? The young lad's basically just admitted he's being bullied at school and you're digging him out about grammar. I despair about some of our fans.
Drama king!
You despair of some of our fans over a jokey comment like that?!!! Your life must be tough.
im 14 and one thing i noticed is no one comes out at school because if they do they might aswell commit suicide, people have "banter" with me for being fat and ginger so imagine if someone said they were gay. if someone came out i would stand up for them, i dont liek people saying faggot either. I hear that loads at skool, not to mention the jew goal or u jew
"I hear that loads at skool"? Please listen during the English lessons, young lad.
@Viewfinder Are you joking ? The young lad's basically just admitted he's being bullied at school and you're digging him out about grammar. I despair about some of our fans.
Absolutely hear hear!! @Viewfinder, how about making a constructive comment on the actual importance/significance of Jack's post and its implications on him as opposed to picking him up for a bit of slang! And by the way 'old fella', to call him 'young lad' is so condescending.
@Jack, stick with it my friend. Just remember that you are better than the bully, be it a verbal or physical bully. Really good point also mate about standing up for people and their rights. You have a top attitude and in no time at all will be able to look back at those who cause you some grief and just smile at them. Easy to say I know but try not to let it get you down and if it does don't bottle it up, talk to someone.
To be honest society has changed so much in its acceptance of homosexuality I think it would be an insult to 90% of people's intelligence to make an issue about sportsmen being gay. In fact if I was a gay closeted footballer I would probably be embarrassed about the fuss over what should be viewed as such a non-issue
As regards changing room behaviour, put any group of young men together and you will get a very predictable humour level.
Here's a shocker too, blokes are normally most offensive to each other when they are most fond of each other
We can be such a sensitive lot in this country sometimes. Whilst I don't want to go down the 'it's only banter' line I'm struggling with the argument about the terraces frightening people off. Can we really think of that many examples where terrace taunts have driven them away from football? Sol Campbell might be the closest, but his crime was a football one and much more serious in the Spurs fans' minds. Anyway, there's enough bad behaviour among footballers that's much riper game for terrace hostility, and I'm quite sure Lee Hughes and Marlon King would get it from the terraces considerably more fiercely. Personally I think it's more of a career thing for the footballers, a lack of confidence that an old school manager would think it as irrelevant as the modern player's team mates would do.
If I were a gay footballer and had the choice between living my life in private and keeping my sexuality a secret (to the general public, people that matter would know) v lots of media press + fans from all clubs (you'd be surprised how many chants there would be) harassing me during games, it's an easy choice.
I'm sure many heterosexual footballers would wish they'd be able to keep their private life private too.
If an openly gay person put in a bad tackle, it wouldn't be long until the crowd would focus on that area of his life to insult.
Carts that's perfectly correct you orang-utan looking cnut 8)
I don't see the big deal in this coming out stuff, I think that if your gay your gay be proud of who you are not what you are don't give your self labels
Rainbow laces = a token sign of understading, tolerance and care. Won't hurt, and those in the chaging rooms that take the p*ss will be under sever peer pressure to shut it.
Rainbow laces = a token sign of understading, tolerance and care. Won't hurt, and those in the chaging rooms that take the p*ss will be under sever peer pressure to shut it.
Ding ding ding. Simple as that really. Even if you don't think it will make a difference, it's laces so can't see why it would wind you up!
Queensland - I hope your children aren't gay. For their sake.
Why's that Leroy? I've already stated that two of my dearest friends are gay. My girls will always have my 100% support no matter what. I just don't want them influenced in their development stage by what seems to be a barrage of pro gay propaganda at the moment. I don't want them to grow up thinking that being gay is more natural than being heterosexual or that being heterosexual is so "yesterday". An impressionable kid watching TV or reading magazines or papers in this day and age could easily reach that conclusion. There is very little in the media about tradition family values, marriage between a man and a women etc .
queensland, I posed a question above about an imaginary classroom incident. How do you think it should be tackled/ Should the incident simply be ignored, and we pretend it wouldn't happen?
Difficult one Seth. Depends on the maturity of the kids and their level of knowledge. Without having had any sex education, a kid would assume calling another kid "gay" as being an insult. Having been educated on the matter they'd probably use a different term if they wanted to insult the other child. The teacher would have to weigh up those factors.
Well the idea of the Rainbow laces is to encourage footballers to come out and announce to the footballing public that they are gay, is it not? Why? That's what I don't get. It's nobody's business. Heterosexuals aren't encouraged to admit they prefer the opposite sex, so why all this "sing if your glad to be gay" crap, all the mardi gras parades etc. Why are homosexuals so keen to encourage other homosexuals to go public. I've got two good mates who are gay, they've never told me or even discussed it with me, but of course when they are with their respective partners it's quite obvious. I'm sure if they happened to be professional footballers, they wouldn't feel the need to tell the footballing public or the media that they were gay.
Because for so long it has been socially unacceptable to be gay, and there are still some people who believe being gay is immoral/unnatural. Obviously, the same has never been said about being heterosexual. If people can publicly show that gay people are no different from straight people other than their sexuality, then I can't see what's wrong with that.
Seriously? Had you written that 20 years ago I'd have agreed with you, but today? Gayness is now absolutely everywhere. TV hosts, air stewards, fashion, the arts, a huge gay movement coming out of universities. Is it really still taboo to be gay? On the contrary I'd say, I'm starting to feel queer for preferring sexy women to men. Maybe I should start up a proud to be heterosexual movement to bring back a bit of balance!
Queensland - I hope your children aren't gay. For their sake.
Why's that Leroy? I've already stated that two of my dearest friends are gay. My girls will always have my 100% support no matter what. I just don't want them influenced in their development stage by what seems to be a barrage of pro gay propaganda at the moment. I don't want them to grow up thinking that being gay is more natural than being heterosexual or that being heterosexual is so "yesterday". An impressionable kid watching TV or reading magazines or papers in this day and age could easily reach that conclusion. There is very little in the media about tradition family values, marriage between a man and a women etc .
You cannot choose sexuality. People don't decide to be gay because it's the cool thing to do.
Considering the amount of heterosexual relationships on tv, i'm sure they'll be fine. They're called family values because the family are the ones that need to teach it to their children, not the media.
You cannot choose sexuality. People don't decide to be gay because it's the cool thing to do.
Considering the amount of heterosexual relationships on tv, i'm sure they'll be fine. They're called family values because the family are the ones that need to teach it to their children, not the media.
Disagree, some are born gay without a doubt, others like to experiment with both sexes then decide which way to go, or remain bisexual. Wasn't there a study that showed that there was a homosexual tendency in all of us to some degree? I believe that young kids can be influenced by their peers into taking drugs, drinking, even their sexual behaviour, hence the problems we are now experiencing with sexting. An impressionable child or teen could very easily be influenced into doing things that they otherwise would never have considered, had it not been for peer pressure or blanket media coverage. Once your kids leave home, go to uni etc, they are subjected to other forces that you have no control over. Family values that you have instilled can be forgotten if their minds are reconditioned to think in a different way. The media plays a huge role in influencing the way some of us think and behave, as do our teachers, tutors and peer groups.
Queensland - I hope your children aren't gay. For their sake.
Why's that Leroy? I've already stated that two of my dearest friends are gay. My girls will always have my 100% support no matter what. I just don't want them influenced in their development stage by what seems to be a barrage of pro gay propaganda at the moment. I don't want them to grow up thinking that being gay is more natural than being heterosexual or that being heterosexual is so "yesterday". An impressionable kid watching TV or reading magazines or papers in this day and age could easily reach that conclusion. There is very little in the media about tradition family values, marriage between a man and a women etc .
You cannot choose sexuality. People don't decide to be gay because it's the cool thing to do.
Considering the amount of heterosexual relationships on tv, i'm sure they'll be fine. They're called family values because the family are the ones that need to teach it to their children, not the media.
A cousin of my ex was in an open lesbian relationship about 18 or so years ago, when she was around 18. She had the short hair cut and the full lesbian "look". Recently my ex, who I'm still friends with, had photos on her Facebook of her cousins wedding to a bloke, her cousin had completely changed her image, with long blonde hair etc, as well as her sexuality. Looking through her photos, she's into cake making and all the mumsy type of things, which she certainly weren't when I knew her
The fact is - and by the law of averages I think it's safe to assume there are any number of gay men playing professional football - there has only ever been one that declared his homosexuality whilst still playing and look what happened to him.
It's easy for presumably straight men on here to say gay footballers shouldn't label themselves, that there isn't any homophobic chanting, and if there were it would only be that insidious little word 'banter' and the 'why can't they just get on with it without ramming it down our throats? (Form a queue). Being straight, you're not really qualified to make assumptions about how a gay man should think or act.
Even in these supposedly enlightened times, the dynamic of being a straight man is markedly different from that of being a gay one. No-one ever got beaten up or murdered for simply being heterosexual.The same cannot be said for homosexuals.
You cannot choose sexuality. People don't decide to be gay because it's the cool thing to do.
Considering the amount of heterosexual relationships on tv, i'm sure they'll be fine. They're called family values because the family are the ones that need to teach it to their children, not the media.
Disagree, some are born gay without a doubt, others like to experiment with both sexes then decide which way to go, or remain bisexual. Wasn't there a study that showed that there was a homosexual tendency in all of us to some degree? I believe that young kids can be influenced by their peers into taking drugs, drinking, even their sexual behaviour, hence the problems we are now experiencing with sexting. An impressionable child or teen could very easily be influenced into doing things that they otherwise would never have considered, had it not been for peer pressure or blanket media coverage. Once your kids leave home, go to uni etc, they are subjected to other forces that you have no control over. Family values that you have instilled can be forgotten if their minds are reconditioned to think in a different way. The media plays a huge role in influencing the way some of us think and behave, as do our teachers, tutors and peer groups.
Extraordinary that these ideas still prevail in today's society. Even down to using the "gay friends" angle to justify them.
Queensland - I hope your children aren't gay. For their sake.
Why's that Leroy? I've already stated that two of my dearest friends are gay. My girls will always have my 100% support no matter what. I just don't want them influenced in their development stage by what seems to be a barrage of pro gay propaganda at the moment. I don't want them to grow up thinking that being gay is more natural than being heterosexual or that being heterosexual is so "yesterday". An impressionable kid watching TV or reading magazines or papers in this day and age could easily reach that conclusion. There is very little in the media about tradition family values, marriage between a man and a women etc .
You cannot choose sexuality. People don't decide to be gay because it's the cool thing to do.
Considering the amount of heterosexual relationships on tv, i'm sure they'll be fine. They're called family values because the family are the ones that need to teach it to their children, not the media.
A cousin of my ex was in an open lesbian relationship about 18 or so years ago, when she was around 18. She had the short hair cut and the full lesbian "look". Recently my ex, who I'm still friends with, had photos on her Facebook of her cousins wedding to a bloke, her cousin had completely changed her image, with long blonde hair etc, as well as her sexuality. Looking through her photos, she's into cake making and all the mumsy type of things, which she certainly weren't when I knew her
Tom Robinson decided he would be happier with a woman. I don't think either he or the cousin were involved with the same sex because someone in The Beano or Face magazine told them to?
Comments
We can be such a sensitive lot in this country sometimes. Whilst I don't want to go down the 'it's only banter' line I'm struggling with the argument about the terraces frightening people off. Can we really think of that many examples where terrace taunts have driven them away from football? Sol Campbell might be the closest, but his crime was a football one and much more serious in the Spurs fans' minds. Anyway, there's enough bad behaviour among footballers that's much riper game for terrace hostility, and I'm quite sure Lee Hughes and Marlon King would get it from the terraces considerably more fiercely. Personally I think it's more of a career thing for the footballers, a lack of confidence that an old school manager would think it as irrelevant as the modern player's team mates would do.
Society isn't going to get more comfortable with gay people if they're hiding, nor if it's thrust in its face (for want of a better phrase). Stonewall don't help, in my opinion, by pretending there are more gay people than there are (roughly 1.5% according to the last census, which would mean at least 85% are keeping quiet if their 1/10 claims are accurate, assuming some heterosexuals declined the question also). It's also incorrect to imply that failing to agree with Stonewall means you're homophobic. It really doesn't.
Rainbow laces will do little, if that. It strikes me that if they really wanted to get the issue out in the open they should persuade every gay footballer to come out over a weekend. We'd probably find at least one gay player and/or coaching staff in every football club, which would somewhat naturally constrain the extent of terrace chanting (notwithstanding the type of idiot who can offer racism to the opposition but except their own black players). It would also offer more than a challenge for any tiny-minded club management, and the media would look pretty silly to call it out. Again, for want of a better phrase. :-)
You despair of some of our fans over a jokey comment like that?!!! Your life must be tough.
@Jack, stick with it my friend. Just remember that you are better than the bully, be it a verbal or physical bully. Really good point also mate about standing up for people and their rights. You have a top attitude and in no time at all will be able to look back at those who cause you some grief and just smile at them. Easy to say I know but try not to let it get you down and if it does don't bottle it up, talk to someone.
But baz agrees with you.
As regards changing room behaviour, put any group of young men together and you will get a very predictable humour level.
Here's a shocker too, blokes are normally most offensive to each other when they are most fond of each other
Isn't that right NLA you stinking fat fecker ;-)
I'm sure many heterosexual footballers would wish they'd be able to keep their private life private too.
If an openly gay person put in a bad tackle, it wouldn't be long until the crowd would focus on that area of his life to insult.
Just a big fat melting pot
I can see how this reads but I'm being serious
I don't see the big deal in this coming out stuff, I think that if your gay your gay be proud of who you are not what you are don't give your self labels
nothing wrong with being ginger, i was...................................a long time ago.
Well the idea of the Rainbow laces is to encourage footballers to come out and announce to the footballing public that they are gay, is it not? Why? That's what I don't get. It's nobody's business. Heterosexuals aren't encouraged to admit they prefer the opposite sex, so why all this "sing if your glad to be gay" crap, all the mardi gras parades etc. Why are homosexuals so keen to encourage other homosexuals to go public. I've got two good mates who are gay, they've never told me or even discussed it with me, but of course when they are with their respective partners it's quite obvious. I'm sure if they happened to be professional footballers, they wouldn't feel the need to tell the footballing public or the media that they were gay.
Because for so long it has been socially unacceptable to be gay, and there are still some people who believe being gay is immoral/unnatural. Obviously, the same has never been said about being heterosexual. If people can publicly show that gay people are no different from straight people other than their sexuality, then I can't see what's wrong with that.
Seriously? Had you written that 20 years ago I'd have agreed with you, but today? Gayness is now absolutely everywhere. TV hosts, air stewards, fashion, the arts, a huge gay movement coming out of universities. Is it really still taboo to be gay? On the contrary I'd say, I'm starting to feel queer for preferring sexy women to men. Maybe I should start up a proud to be heterosexual movement to bring back a bit of balance!
Considering the amount of heterosexual relationships on tv, i'm sure they'll be fine. They're called family values because the family are the ones that need to teach it to their children, not the media.
You cannot choose sexuality. People don't decide to be gay because it's the cool thing to do.
Considering the amount of heterosexual relationships on tv, i'm sure they'll be fine. They're called family values because the family are the ones that need to teach it to their children, not the media.
Disagree, some are born gay without a doubt, others like to experiment with both sexes then decide which way to go, or remain bisexual. Wasn't there a study that showed that there was a homosexual tendency in all of us to some degree?
I believe that young kids can be influenced by their peers into taking drugs, drinking, even their sexual behaviour, hence the problems we are now experiencing with sexting. An impressionable child or teen could very easily be influenced into doing things that they otherwise would never have considered, had it not been for peer pressure or blanket media coverage. Once your kids leave home, go to uni etc, they are subjected to other forces that you have no control over. Family values that you have instilled can be forgotten if their minds are reconditioned to think in a different way. The media plays a huge role in influencing the way some of us think and behave, as do our teachers, tutors and peer groups.
It's easy for presumably straight men on here to say gay footballers shouldn't label themselves, that there isn't any homophobic chanting, and if there were it would only be that insidious little word 'banter' and the 'why can't they just get on with it without ramming it down our throats? (Form a queue). Being straight, you're not really qualified to make assumptions about how a gay man should think or act.
Even in these supposedly enlightened times, the dynamic of being a straight man is markedly different from that of being a gay one.
No-one ever got beaten up or murdered for simply being heterosexual.The same cannot be said for homosexuals.
Considering the amount of heterosexual relationships on tv, i'm sure they'll be fine. They're called family values because the family are the ones that need to teach it to their children, not the media.
Disagree, some are born gay without a doubt, others like to experiment with both sexes then decide which way to go, or remain bisexual. Wasn't there a study that showed that there was a homosexual tendency in all of us to some degree?
I believe that young kids can be influenced by their peers into taking drugs, drinking, even their sexual behaviour, hence the problems we are now experiencing with sexting. An impressionable child or teen could very easily be influenced into doing things that they otherwise would never have considered, had it not been for peer pressure or blanket media coverage. Once your kids leave home, go to uni etc, they are subjected to other forces that you have no control over. Family values that you have instilled can be forgotten if their minds are reconditioned to think in a different way. The media plays a huge role in influencing the way some of us think and behave, as do our teachers, tutors and peer groups.
Extraordinary that these ideas still prevail in today's society. Even down to using the "gay friends" angle to justify them.
You will be talking about curing them next.