I long for the day when people don't have to "come out" as gay, much like we don't have to "come out" as straight. Queensland, if you don't think an 18/19 year old has a pretty clear idea of their sexuality then they've grown up in a very repressive household. I don't know of anyone while I was at uni that engaged in homosexual activity that wasn't already openly gay or bisexual. Having said that, I do agree that sexuality isn't as clearly defined as we think. Too much is put in by the media that if you find a man attractive you MUST be gay or at least bisexual.
Queensland - I hope your children aren't gay. For their sake.
Why's that Leroy? I've already stated that two of my dearest friends are gay. My girls will always have my 100% support no matter what. I just don't want them influenced in their development stage by what seems to be a barrage of pro gay propaganda at the moment. I don't want them to grow up thinking that being gay is more natural than being heterosexual or that being heterosexual is so "yesterday". An impressionable kid watching TV or reading magazines or papers in this day and age could easily reach that conclusion. There is very little in the media about tradition family values, marriage between a man and a women etc .
You cannot choose sexuality. People don't decide to be gay because it's the cool thing to do.
Considering the amount of heterosexual relationships on tv, i'm sure they'll be fine. They're called family values because the family are the ones that need to teach it to their children, not the media.
A cousin of my ex was in an open lesbian relationship about 18 or so years ago, when she was around 18. She had the short hair cut and the full lesbian "look". Recently my ex, who I'm still friends with, had photos on her Facebook of her cousins wedding to a bloke, her cousin had completely changed her image, with long blonde hair etc, as well as her sexuality. Looking through her photos, she's into cake making and all the mumsy type of things, which she certainly weren't when I knew her
Tom Robinson decided he would be happier with a woman. I don't think either he or the cousin were involved with the same sex because someone in The Beano or Face magazine told them to?
Disagree, I think some people do do things because it's "the thing to do". I'm not implying that all gay people are putting on an act or weren't born that way as I agree that almost all were, but just that some people choose one way or the other because either it suits at the time, or because they are easily influenced. From memory, the cousin I'm talking about would change image/fashion with a drop of a hat which says to me it was just a "phase".
An individual's sexuality is basically a list of people that fancy. some may prefer their own sex, some the opposite sex, some both sexes, and others nobody at all. It's the way we all are and there's nothing wrong with. It's up to them how they define it. It's a continuum. It really isn't that big a deal, but there is a need for gay rights and gay pride (or bisexual pride or asexual pride... whatever) as long as there is repression and bigotry. It's standing up to ignorance and bullying for being who you are. If you don't like it, then you clearly need to educate yourself.
.....on the flip side, a good friend of mine out here got married to his fiance last October 2012 after 9 years together, went on their late honeymoon at the end of August with their 3 year old lad. She goes straight back to the UK for 10 days and over a phone call, tells him that she's leaving him because she's gay. They were only trying for another child last summer Ffs! And there she is now, not even 1 year after they got married, sticking photos of herself with her arms around various other birds in a gay bar somewhere on Facebook! You can't make this shit up
When youngsters are coming to terms with their own sexuality at secondary school age, it is much more likely they will hide it away if they're gay rather than declare that they are as a fashion statement or to be cool in some way. Fitting in is a very strong pull amongst kids of those ages, very unlikely that they would 'choose' to be gay and have to handle all the difficulties that would follow. I don't believe being gay is a choice, and certainly not a choice made because of media and culture, nor do I believe it is a condition that can be 'cured'. The real sadness is that people can make gay people feel ashamed of who they are.
Queensland - I hope your children aren't gay. For their sake.
Why's that Leroy? I've already stated that two of my dearest friends are gay. My girls will always have my 100% support no matter what. I just don't want them influenced in their development stage by what seems to be a barrage of pro gay propaganda at the moment. I don't want them to grow up thinking that being gay is more natural than being heterosexual or that being heterosexual is so "yesterday". An impressionable kid watching TV or reading magazines or papers in this day and age could easily reach that conclusion. There is very little in the media about tradition family values, marriage between a man and a women etc .
You cannot choose sexuality. People don't decide to be gay because it's the cool thing to do.
Considering the amount of heterosexual relationships on tv, i'm sure they'll be fine. They're called family values because the family are the ones that need to teach it to their children, not the media.
A cousin of my ex was in an open lesbian relationship about 18 or so years ago, when she was around 18. She had the short hair cut and the full lesbian "look". Recently my ex, who I'm still friends with, had photos on her Facebook of her cousins wedding to a bloke, her cousin had completely changed her image, with long blonde hair etc, as well as her sexuality. Looking through her photos, she's into cake making and all the mumsy type of things, which she certainly weren't when I knew her
Tom Robinson decided he would be happier with a woman. I don't think either he or the cousin were involved with the same sex because someone in The Beano or Face magazine told them to?
Disagree, I think some people do do things because it's "the thing to do". I'm not implying that all gay people are putting on an act or weren't born that way as I agree that almost all were, but just that some people choose one way or the other because either it suits at the time, or because they are easily influenced. From memory, the cousin I'm talking about would change image/fashion with a drop of a hat which says to me it was just a "phase".
I never thought you were implying that Rob, I understand the point you are making, and I just happen to think it's not right. As a heterosexual boy/man there would have been no way I would have got involved in any "buttock fondling shenanigans" ;-), no matter how trendy or cool it was.
If you have leanings that way, you might be happy to hear that it is not abnormal and then test the water, and I see nothing wrong with that. If your other mate's wife had felt able to express her sexuality when young maybe she would never have gone down the path of marriage and all that?
Queensland - I hope your children aren't gay. For their sake.
Why's that Leroy? I've already stated that two of my dearest friends are gay. My girls will always have my 100% support no matter what. I just don't want them influenced in their development stage by what seems to be a barrage of pro gay propaganda at the moment. I don't want them to grow up thinking that being gay is more natural than being heterosexual or that being heterosexual is so "yesterday". An impressionable kid watching TV or reading magazines or papers in this day and age could easily reach that conclusion. There is very little in the media about tradition family values, marriage between a man and a women etc .
You cannot choose sexuality. People don't decide to be gay because it's the cool thing to do.
Considering the amount of heterosexual relationships on tv, i'm sure they'll be fine. They're called family values because the family are the ones that need to teach it to their children, not the media.
A cousin of my ex was in an open lesbian relationship about 18 or so years ago, when she was around 18. She had the short hair cut and the full lesbian "look". Recently my ex, who I'm still friends with, had photos on her Facebook of her cousins wedding to a bloke, her cousin had completely changed her image, with long blonde hair etc, as well as her sexuality. Looking through her photos, she's into cake making and all the mumsy type of things, which she certainly weren't when I knew her
Tom Robinson decided he would be happier with a woman. I don't think either he or the cousin were involved with the same sex because someone in The Beano or Face magazine told them to?
Disagree, I think some people do do things because it's "the thing to do". I'm not implying that all gay people are putting on an act or weren't born that way as I agree that almost all were, but just that some people choose one way or the other because either it suits at the time, or because they are easily influenced. From memory, the cousin I'm talking about would change image/fashion with a drop of a hat which says to me it was just a "phase".
I never thought you were implying that Rob, I understand the point you are making, and I just happen to think it's not right. As a heterosexual boy/man there would have been no way I would have got involved in any "buttock fondling shenanigans" ;-), no matter how trendy or cool it was.
If you have leanings that way, you might be happy to hear that it is not abnormal and then test the water, and I see nothing wrong with that. If your other mate's wife had felt able to express her sexuality when young maybe she would never have gone down the path of marriage and all that?
Re. my mates wife, its way to late for her to play the poor gay card, but that's more a reflection on her as a person then her sexuality.
Some of the views about homosexuality on here are just extraordinary, do you really think that people CHOOSE to be gay?
They choose to be ridiculed? Ostracised from their families? Discriminated against by religious groups? They freely choose that? Really?
Fact is people are born with their sexuality and there ain't a damn thing they can do about it, you certainly can't "pray the gay away" as some Christian groups believe.
The suicide rates among young gay people is shockingly, staggeringly high, why do you think that is? It's simply because they are ashamed of what they are, they are faced with people who tell them that being gay is unnatural and disgusting and so they live in terror of what faces them in the years ahead.
If you don't believe me, then read up on the It Gets Better project run by Dan Savage in the US, which has helped thousands of young gay people, here is an interview with Dan below...
.....some of the stories are heart breaking and could just as easily be any of our children in the future whilst ignorance, prejudice and hatred remain so prevalent.
If that post was aimed in any way at me Ormiston, read my posts again! 100% agree that gay people are born that way and that's the way they are, but I also think that some people get involved for other reasons. My old neighbours were in a civil partnership and had been together for over 25 years and whenever we talked about this very subject, they shared similar views.
little fact on Justin Fashanu he got to the national schoolboys boxing final and unlike now where about two compete in it, he stopped every single boxer to make the final in derby where he himself was stopped.
If deep in the desert one finds a bottle of water does one check whether it is Evian or Peckham Spring or simply drink it gratefully?
Youngsters with raging hormones similarly crave sexual experience with someone other than themselves. If that happens to be with their own sex it is often because that is what was available not that they are homosexual and an experimental part of the growing up process.
If deep in the desert one finds a bottle of water does one check whether it is Evian or Peckham Spring or simply drink it gratefully?
Youngsters with raging hormones similarly crave sexual experience with someone other than themselves. If that happens to be with their own sex it is often because that is what was available not that they are homosexual and an experimental part of the growing up process.
If deep in the desert one finds a bottle of water does one check whether it is Evian or Peckham Spring or simply drink it gratefully?
Youngsters with raging hormones similarly crave sexual experience with someone other than themselves. If that happens to be with their own sex it is often because that is what was available not that they are homosexual and an experimental part of the growing up process.
WTF......Len when I was a raging hormonal teenager, I certainly didn't try it on with my mate just cause I didn't pull on a night out
If deep in the desert one finds a bottle of water does one check whether it is Evian or Peckham Spring or simply drink it gratefully?
Youngsters with raging hormones similarly crave sexual experience with someone other than themselves. If that happens to be with their own sex it is often because that is what was available not that they are homosexual and an experimental part of the growing up process.
If that post was aimed in any way at me Ormiston, read my posts again! 100% agree that gay people are born that way and that's the way they are, but I also think that some people get involved for other reasons. My old neighbours were in a civil partnership and had been together for over 25 years and whenever we talked about this very subject, they shared similar views.
Not aimed at you, for once, I think we are in agreement.
Len, the only thing I can think of that may justify your post is with prisoners. Many prisoners of both sexes, and whatever persuasion, will find an outlet for their hormones with same sex experiences, they have no alternative as it were. It is also true that teenagers can 'experiment', but with heterosexual teenagers it is much more likely to be a way of checking if they are unusual in any way, making comparisons if you like, than because they are gay. Teenagers with raging hormones will develop mad passions for One Direction, or pin ups and the like. They are much more likely to sooth their desires with a Tommy, or with each other, after all the UK has an amazing high rate of teenage pregnancies and terminations.
You cannot choose sexuality. People don't decide to be gay because it's the cool thing to do.
Considering the amount of heterosexual relationships on tv, i'm sure they'll be fine. They're called family values because the family are the ones that need to teach it to their children, not the media.
Disagree, some are born gay without a doubt, others like to experiment with both sexes then decide which way to go, or remain bisexual. Wasn't there a study that showed that there was a homosexual tendency in all of us to some degree? I believe that young kids can be influenced by their peers into taking drugs, drinking, even their sexual behaviour, hence the problems we are now experiencing with sexting. An impressionable child or teen could very easily be influenced into doing things that they otherwise would never have considered, had it not been for peer pressure or blanket media coverage. Once your kids leave home, go to uni etc, they are subjected to other forces that you have no control over. Family values that you have instilled can be forgotten if their minds are reconditioned to think in a different way. The media plays a huge role in influencing the way some of us think and behave, as do our teachers, tutors and peer groups.
Extraordinary that these ideas still prevail in today's society. Even down to using the "gay friends" angle to justify them.
You will be talking about curing them next.
I beg your pardon Algarve. Let's try this instead: No one is born gay. No one ever experiments with their sexuality. Kids have never been known to be led astray. Kids have never been known to be brainwashed into joining strange religious sects and such like, and the media plays no role whatsoever in influencing people, neither do teachers or tutors. There you go, I'm sure you now must agree 100% with that. BTW please don't don't try pretending that I ever suggested that homosexuality is an illness that needs curing, when I have never even come close to suggesting such a thing.
There is a world of difference between, I dunno, a 'gay action' and being actually gay. experiments, corruption, cults call them what you will are always around, but being gay is very unlikely to be something that shifts around as you go through life.
If deep in the desert one finds a bottle of water does one check whether it is Evian or Peckham Spring or simply drink it gratefully?
Youngsters with raging hormones similarly crave sexual experience with someone other than themselves. If that happens to be with their own sex it is often because that is what was available not that they are homosexual and an experimental part of the growing up process.
Bit late to come out now Len, but gotta say that I really admire your courage, can't be easy for you.
Stay strong mate and if all else fails blame the EU.
There's a difference between being 'led astray' into taking drugs and being 'led astray' to being gay. One is possible, the other isn't.
Interesting that the only people believing that media plays such a big part is straight people. I'd like to meet the gay person that says their sexuality was decided by media/teachers.
An individual's sexuality is basically a list of people that fancy. some may prefer their own sex, some the opposite sex, some both sexes, and others nobody at all. It's the way we all are and there's nothing wrong with. It's up to them how they define it. It's a continuum. It really isn't that big a deal, but there is a need for gay rights and gay pride (or bisexual pride or asexual pride... whatever) as long as there is repression and bigotry. It's standing up to ignorance and bullying for being who you are. If you don't like it, then you clearly need to educate yourself.
Agreed. But does repression and bigotry still exist to a huge degree? There are now many industries where being gay, having gay friends and mixing in gay circles would be a clear advantage rather than a disadvantage.
An individual's sexuality is basically a list of people that fancy. some may prefer their own sex, some the opposite sex, some both sexes, and others nobody at all. It's the way we all are and there's nothing wrong with. It's up to them how they define it. It's a continuum. It really isn't that big a deal, but there is a need for gay rights and gay pride (or bisexual pride or asexual pride... whatever) as long as there is repression and bigotry. It's standing up to ignorance and bullying for being who you are. If you don't like it, then you clearly need to educate yourself.
Agreed. But does repression and bigotry still exist to a huge degree? There are now many industries where being gay, having gay friends and mixing in gay circles would be a clear advantage rather than a disadvantage.
So, you've done the "some of my best friends are gay" one. Now the "we're in the minority now - it's not fair that they get all the jobs'". I'm taking bets on how long before a variation on the theme of "not all of them are bad, some of them just set a bad example'" pops up.
An individual's sexuality is basically a list of people that fancy. some may prefer their own sex, some the opposite sex, some both sexes, and others nobody at all. It's the way we all are and there's nothing wrong with. It's up to them how they define it. It's a continuum. It really isn't that big a deal, but there is a need for gay rights and gay pride (or bisexual pride or asexual pride... whatever) as long as there is repression and bigotry. It's standing up to ignorance and bullying for being who you are. If you don't like it, then you clearly need to educate yourself.
Agreed. But does repression and bigotry still exist to a huge degree? There are now many industries where being gay, having gay friends and mixing in gay circles would be a clear advantage rather than a disadvantage.
Yes it does, sadly. There's a threat of violence, actual violence, and even just people calling you dirty and looking down their nose at you. If I was gay and read this thread, there are some views that I am sure would annoy me even more than they are now. The UK is pretty tolerant compared to, say, the middle east for sure. This debate wouldn't even happen there. But closer to your home, I happen to know a few gay Aussies and they are so pissed off with Tony Abbott who comes across as a bigoted turd of the highest degree, and pretty much ran his election campaign on a right wing anti-gay ticket. If my government said I was lower than low because, say, I had brown eyes, I'd feel oppressed for sure. bit of a crap example, but as a white English male, I really don't get too much in the way of discrimination
An individual's sexuality is basically a list of people that fancy. some may prefer their own sex, some the opposite sex, some both sexes, and others nobody at all. It's the way we all are and there's nothing wrong with. It's up to them how they define it. It's a continuum. It really isn't that big a deal, but there is a need for gay rights and gay pride (or bisexual pride or asexual pride... whatever) as long as there is repression and bigotry. It's standing up to ignorance and bullying for being who you are. If you don't like it, then you clearly need to educate yourself.
Agreed. But does repression and bigotry still exist to a huge degree? There are now many industries where being gay, having gay friends and mixing in gay circles would be a clear advantage rather than a disadvantage.
Yes it does, sadly. There's a threat of violence, actual violence, and even just people calling you dirty and looking down their nose at you. If I was gay and read this thread, there are some views that I am sure would annoy me even more than they are now. The UK is pretty tolerant compared to, say, the middle east for sure. This debate wouldn't even happen there. But closer to your home, I happen to know a few gay Aussies and they are so pissed off with Tony Abbott who comes across as a bigoted turd of the highest degree, and pretty much ran his election campaign on a right wing anti-gay ticket. If my government said I was lower than low because, say, I had brown eyes, I'd feel oppressed for sure. bit of a crap example, but as a white English male, I really don't get too much in the way of discrimination
And whilst I don't disagree with your second point (it depends why it would be an advantage I suppose), there are I am sure many more where it would be a massive disadvantage
I'm actually very surprised to hear that. I have had a couple of very enjoyable nights out in Luton with my old school friend. He has a great group of gay mates and leads a far better social life than I have ever enjoyed. I have never experienced any animosity or threatening behaviour whilst in his company. Likewise my wife and I's best friend in Cape Town, although he is much older and doesn't do the clubbing scene. As for Tony Abbott, it was a total beat up by Gillard (with her infamous misogynist speech) and the left, which thankfully the Australian public eventually saw through and gave them the biggest beating in over 100 years at the recent election. Abbott is not anti gay at all (his sister is gay), he is a religious man who believes in traditional values. Far from being a woman hater, he has three beautiful daughters, a female chief of staff and a female deputy. He is old fashioned in many respects, but a decent man who has always spent one week of his holidays every year doing voluntary work in indigenous communities, he's also a volunteer life saver and firefighter. He also developed the Pollie Pedal, a 1000 klm bike ride that he does every year and that has raised over $2.5 million so far for a range of charities.
Comments
Fitting in is a very strong pull amongst kids of those ages, very unlikely that they would 'choose' to be gay and have to handle all the difficulties that would follow.
I don't believe being gay is a choice, and certainly not a choice made because of media and culture, nor do I believe it is a condition that can be 'cured'. The real sadness is that people can make gay people feel ashamed of who they are.
Leeds, Birmingham, Wolves, Burnley, Forest are just a few places where i can imagine a player would get quite a lot of abuse.
Brighton fans still get homophobic abuse even now. Last week a couple of Derby fans got 3 year banning orders for shouting abuse at Brighton fans.
If you have leanings that way, you might be happy to hear that it is not abnormal and then test the water, and I see nothing wrong with that. If your other mate's wife had felt able to express her sexuality when young maybe she would never have gone down the path of marriage and all that?
They choose to be ridiculed? Ostracised from their families? Discriminated against by religious groups? They freely choose that? Really?
Fact is people are born with their sexuality and there ain't a damn thing they can do about it, you certainly can't "pray the gay away" as some Christian groups believe.
The suicide rates among young gay people is shockingly, staggeringly high, why do you think that is? It's simply because they are ashamed of what they are, they are faced with people who tell them that being gay is unnatural and disgusting and so they live in terror of what faces them in the years ahead.
If you don't believe me, then read up on the It Gets Better project run by Dan Savage in the US, which has helped thousands of young gay people, here is an interview with Dan below...
.....some of the stories are heart breaking and could just as easily be any of our children in the future whilst ignorance, prejudice and hatred remain so prevalent.
Youngsters with raging hormones similarly crave sexual experience with someone other than themselves. If that happens to be with their own sex it is often because that is what was available not that they are homosexual and an experimental part of the growing up process.
Lets not make a habit of it....:)
It is also true that teenagers can 'experiment', but with heterosexual teenagers it is much more likely to be a way of checking if they are unusual in any way, making comparisons if you like, than because they are gay.
Teenagers with raging hormones will develop mad passions for One Direction, or pin ups and the like. They are much more likely to sooth their desires with a Tommy, or with each other, after all the UK has an amazing high rate of teenage pregnancies and terminations.
I believe that young kids can be influenced by their peers into taking drugs, drinking, even their sexual behaviour, hence the problems we are now experiencing with sexting. An impressionable child or teen could very easily be influenced into doing things that they otherwise would never have considered, had it not been for peer pressure or blanket media coverage. Once your kids leave home, go to uni etc, they are subjected to other forces that you have no control over. Family values that you have instilled can be forgotten if their minds are reconditioned to think in a different way. The media plays a huge role in influencing the way some of us think and behave, as do our teachers, tutors and peer groups.
Extraordinary that these ideas still prevail in today's society. Even down to using the "gay friends" angle to justify them.
You will be talking about curing them next.
I beg your pardon Algarve. Let's try this instead: No one is born gay. No one ever experiments with their sexuality. Kids have never been known to be led astray. Kids have never been known to be brainwashed into joining strange religious sects and such like, and the media plays no role whatsoever in influencing people, neither do teachers or tutors. There you go, I'm sure you now must agree 100% with that. BTW please don't don't try pretending that I ever suggested that homosexuality is an illness that needs curing, when I have never even come close to suggesting such a thing.
Stay strong mate and if all else fails blame the EU.
Interesting that the only people believing that media plays such a big part is straight people. I'd like to meet the gay person that says their sexuality was decided by media/teachers.
I'm actually very surprised to hear that. I have had a couple of very enjoyable nights out in Luton with my old school friend. He has a great group of gay mates and leads a far better social life than I have ever enjoyed. I have never experienced any animosity or threatening behaviour whilst in his company. Likewise my wife and I's best friend in Cape Town, although he is much older and doesn't do the clubbing scene. As for Tony Abbott, it was a total beat up by Gillard (with her infamous misogynist speech) and the left, which thankfully the Australian public eventually saw through and gave them the biggest beating in over 100 years at the recent election. Abbott is not anti gay at all (his sister is gay), he is a religious man who believes in traditional values. Far from being a woman hater, he has three beautiful daughters, a female chief of staff and a female deputy. He is old fashioned in many respects, but a decent man who has always spent one week of his holidays every year doing voluntary work in indigenous communities, he's also a volunteer life saver and firefighter. He also developed the Pollie Pedal, a 1000 klm bike ride that he does every year and that has raised over $2.5 million so far for a range of charities.