Have to back up a previous post;
Phoned The Valley at 10-55am and told "The game is Definetly ON". I asked,politely, if that was 100% and was told "I just told you".
Got my cab (£25) 5 minutes later..........
[cite]Posted By: Miserableold-ish git[/cite]Have to back up a previous post;
Phoned The Valley at 10-55am and told "The game is Definetly ON". I asked,politely, if that was 100% and was told "I just told you".
Got my cab (£25) 5 minutes later..........
Then send your bill to D'Urso Paul - EVERYONE thought the game would be on apart from one person!
lib was very quiet before kick off....so not sure if people left it till the last minute. think i saw a few lifers in there..but never know what to say 'oh are u on charlton life?'.....'no go away you geek'
anyway, there was a few neutrals there today in the queue for a refund....some bloke from brentford was screaming ''southampton should sue this club''....but then after he pulled out and starting drinking what looked like a bottle of paul smith aftershave i knew he wasnt a full ticket.
[cite]Posted By: Miserableold-ish git[/cite]Have to back up a previous post;
Phoned The Valley at 10-55am and told "The game is Definetly ON". I asked,politely, if that was 100% and was told "I just told you".
Got my cab (£25) 5 minutes later..........
Agree, MOG. I think the club was naive and possibly even a little irresponsible in its gung-ho insistence until less than an hour before it was called off that everything was fine and the game was ''definitely on''.
Not sure exactly where the blame lies. Possibly in several directions. I think there are questions to be asked not only of D'Urso but about the inspection by stand-in ref Phil Crossley on Friday. We don't know exactly what he said, but the club chose to report the results of his inspection as ''no problem'' and ''game on'' , when a little more caution and a more qualified interpetation might have been prudent. How did they not even anticipate that there would need to be a further pitch inspection on Sunday morning when the Met office was predicting overnight temperatures falling to minus five?
There is a problem with the club going too hard in their complaint, and it is that they will soon have him as a ref again.
WE, the paying customers have the best redress, and it is probably down to us.
The problem is that we are not well organised as a unit. It would be nice if there was a lawyer among us with a reasonable idea about whether we have a case for compensation. It wouldn't be about the money, but about getting these idiots to be more responsive to us, without whom there would be no professional football.
[cite aria-level=0 aria-posinset=0 aria-setsize=0]Posted By: Miserableold-ish git[/cite]Have to back up a previous post;
Phoned The Valley at 10-55am and told "The game is Definetly ON". I asked,politely, if that was 100% and was told "I just told you".
Got my cab (£25) 5 minutes later..........
Then send your bill to D'Urso Paul - EVERYONE thought the game would be on apart from one person!
Wouldn't happen to know His address would you BDL ?
[cite]Posted By: Miserableold-ish git[/cite]Have to back up a previous post;
Phoned The Valley at 10-55am and told "The game is Definetly ON". I asked,politely, if that was 100% and was told "I just told you".
Got my cab (£25) 5 minutes later..........
Then send your bill to D'Urso Paul - EVERYONE thought the game would be on apart from one person!
Wouldn't happen to know His address would you BDL ?
[cite]Posted By: Miserableold-ish git[/cite]Have to back up a previous post;
Phoned The Valley at 10-55am and told "The game is Definetly ON". I asked,politely, if that was 100% and was told "I just told you".
Got my cab (£25) 5 minutes later..........
Then send your bill to D'Urso Paul - EVERYONE thought the game would be on apart from one person!
Wouldn't happen to know His address would you BDL ?
Can't be many Mr. D'Urso's in the Billericay(?) area - 192.com
The Billericay address and phone number of Andrew P D'Urso and his wife Paula are indeed listed on 192, although the info seems to relate to the electoral register in 2002-4, so it is possible he has since moved. If you give him a call , MOG, do let us know how you get on !
[cite]Posted By: Airman Brown[/cite]A good question to ask would be why D'Urso didn't even arrive at The Valley until at least 10.30pm. He only had to come from Essex, after all.
This, IMO, is a crucial question. I think it is also pretty important to know why, just prior to his decision, he couldn't have allowed some extra time to sort out the remaining problem areas. The blowers were available and the sun was warming things up. A lot of supporters had already arrived and most others would have been on their way. He made two crap decisions as far as I'm concerned, and I, and presumably many others, would like some answers. So how can we best go about getting them?
Lets all meet up and go down his house, drag him out and make him eat 2 seperate pictures of a football pitch, 1 picture will not be a playable pictch and the other can be the Valley's pitch, then as he is gasping for air we can all chant his a prick and that decision was stupid and I bet he would have wished he was with Michael J fox & and the Flux Capasitor!
I was so angry with this decision that i took it out on club on Twitter without getting the facts - i was wrong.
I drove an 160 mile round trip only for this Referee to use the day to become the center of attention.
I don't think this man should be aloud to get away with this decision and there must be some way we can vent our anger with what is quite clearly a terrible decision.
[cite]Posted By: GNelson[/cite]Cheers to the two guys who told us as we left our car- saved us a walk. Think we were too annoyed about it and might've forgotten to thank em!
If that was the other side of Charlton Park then don't worry about it, we were fed up too.
What makes it worse was that we both suspected that the game would be called off and that the club would leave it as late as possible on the off chance that it would go ahead.
For what ever the actual reason it is no better than the debarcle that happened when we were half an hour away from Walsall last winter.
It was very cold last night and there was frost on cars in Eynsford when I got to my Dad's but as there was no snow and the temperatures were not that low it must have been possible for someone at the club to make a decision earlier than they did. If there was some doubt then the Ref should have been called in yesterday or on Christmas Eve. I know this is not popular but as the weather was not that bad the game should have been called off on Friday. The club clearly had a financial incentive for it to go ahead today rather than midweek in January or February but the gamble actually costs the fans in terms of travel and wasted time.
I seriously doubt that the Ref, whom ever it is, would call off a game when it can be played, and on that basis one does have to ask the question how can the club not have known there was a possibility of this happening. If they didn't then I believe that the employee that determined, or predicted, the ref's decision should be looked at very closely.
In this day and age there is no excuse for the game being called of so late!
A good question to ask would be why D'Urso didn't even arrive at The Valley until at least 10.30pm. He only had to come from Essex, after all.quote Airman Brown........
Okay things change, and it was a very harsh frost, so why leave it so late to 'inspect'.! I think this should have been done no later than 10 o'clock. The areas concerned could have been re-inspected at say 11pm with any specific interim reccomendations 'if' the ref had concerns!. From what I have read, this agenda as they say got 'changed' and a fresh\different concern was raised, without giving the teams\ groundstaff any opportunity to rectify this position...... quote 'myself'
Yes, the caprice panderings of this individual could have been 'considered' given the opportunity, which of course seemed to be at the heart of this bizzare escapade!....... but then he would not be at the centre of all this attention, so lavishly enrobbed on this official. Well done ref, I think you managed to piss everyone off!
I think that is most unfair on the Club. They didnt 'gamble", they worked their asses off to get it on, for you and for me. As did 40 odd fans, some of whom are right here. Two other games in London went ahead, one with an earlier kick off. Those that did not were either at less well equipped clubs, or at a supermarket. All the players and managers were ready to play.
I dont know about you but I really wanted to see that game today, and the facts presented to us by those who were actually there, particularly BDL and Airman Brown, leave me in no doubt that another referee would indeed have let the game go ahead, although he my have had to remind one of his linesman that he is there to provide a service too.
[cite]Posted By: PragueAddick[/cite]kings hill addick
I think that is most unfair on the Club. They didnt 'gamble", they worked their asses off to get it on, for you and for me. As did 40 odd fans, some of whom are right here. Two other games in London went ahead, one with an earlier kick off. Those that did not were either at less well equipped clubs, or at a supermarket. All the players and managers were ready to play.
I dont know about you but I really wanted to see that game today, and the facts presented to us by those who were actually there, particularly BDL and Airman Brown, leave me in no doubt that another referee would indeed have let the game go ahead, although he my have had to remind one of his linesman that he is there to provide a service too.
I know what you are saying and why, PA. And possibly another ref would have made a different decision.
But Kings Hill has a real point. The club was far too gung-ho about the game going ahead, apparently based on the Christmas Eve inspection. Given the low temperatures overnight on Friday and Sat, they should have recognised there would be a need for further inspections (they clearly did not, as there was no mention of the possibility on the OS, and even the Friday inspection was described by the OS as merely ''precautionary'').
There should have been an inspection on Xmas Day or at 9am this morning at the latest. Did the club ask Mr D'Urso to arrive earlier than 10.30 am? Or had we kidded ourselves on the strength of Friday's inspection that all was fine and so we weren't fussed what time he showed up today?
Set off from Horsham at 9.45 having checked every website for confirmation that the match was on. Joined the coach from Brighton at Crawley at 10.20 only to travel all the way up in awful Blue Water traffic congestion on M25 until Bugsby Way when my friend who had travelled down from Bury St Edmunds for the game, amongst others, phoned to let us know the match was off. So we had to turn round and come back again. The driver was then out of hours so we had to break on en-route for 45 minutes. Boxing Day ruined thanks Mr D'Urso. Really looked forward to seeing the match. It is not only the Southampton fans that come up from afar, but other passionate supporters. Gutted and pissed off.
[cite]Posted By: kings hill addick[/cite]
It was very cold last night and there was frost on cars in Eynsford when I got to my Dad's but as there was no snow and the temperatures were not that low it must have been possible for someone at the club to make a decision earlier than they did. If there was some doubt then the Ref should have been called in yesterday or on Christmas Eve. I know this is not popular but as the weather was not that bad the game should have been called off on Friday. The club clearly had a financial incentive for it to go ahead today rather than midweek in January or February but the gamble actually costs the fans in terms of travel and wasted time.
I seriously doubt that the Ref, whom ever it is, would call off a game when it can be played, and on that basis one does have to ask the question how can the club not have known there was a possibility of this happening. If they didn't then I believe that the employee that determined, or predicted, the ref's decision should be looked at very closely.
In this day and age there is no excuse for the game being called of so late!
No club official has the authority to call the game off. If there is a safety issue elsewhere in the stadium, the safety officer/the police will advise referee and he will do what he is told. There was no such safety issue.
In accordance with the rules, the club arranged for a referee to visit on Friday and he ruled the pitch playable at that time. Paddy worked on the pitch yesterday and he was happy with it.
Clearly this doesn't mean that it can't become unplayable overnight, but the only person who can call the match off on the day is the appointed referee or another referee appointed by the League if he can't get there. Mr D'Urso was able to get there and arrived at approximately 10.30 - I've been told later, but let's take his time. The club cannot control his arrival time. He looked at the pitch and eventually decided he wanted to look again at 11.30. After extensive discussions at 11.30 he decided that he wanted to look again at 12.00 and delay the kick-off. At that point he called the game off.
It's the view of the groundsman, both managers, all the players and numerous ex-pros that the pitch was perfectly playable, quite apart from what we think as fans. Even Mr D'Urso clearly thought it was a marginal decision or he wouldn't have made three different inspections.
In my opinion, him turning up two and a half hours before kick-off in the prevailing weather conditions and knowing that fans had to travel from Southampton is open to criticism, but there is no mechanism for "someone at the club" to make an earlier decision. Specifically, we are not allowed to make the decision and we would not have made it because we do not agree with it.
In terms of finance, calling a game off one hour before kick-off is the worst possible scenario from every perspective, including financial. All the staff and police costs have to be paid, coach firms have to be paid and food is wasted in large quantities. While it's true that the revenue for a rearranged game will be much lower, we would never run the risk of what happened today if we could possibly avoid it because it is a huge waste of time and money for everyone involved.
Sadly, the only inquiry likely to follow is the football authorities challenging the club for criticising the referee. Regardless of that, I would urge people not pursue him privately because that will only make a bad situation worse.
"Have to back up a previous post;
Phoned The Valley at 10-55am and told "The game is Definetly ON". I asked,politely, if that was 100% and was told "I just told you".
Got my cab (£25) 5 minutes later"..........
Thanks MOG.
I always try to give credit where due but I will also criticise where due.
D'Urso may well have small knob complex or something, hence his need to be the centre of attention and ruin the day of 15,000 plus people, but you too had the same experience as me which suggests that the Club's Communications were not as good as they should have been.
[cite]Posted By: PragueAddick[/cite]kings hill addick
I think that is most unfair on the Club. They didnt 'gamble", they worked their asses off to get it on, for you and for me. As did 40 odd fans, some of whom are right here. Two other games in London went ahead, one with an earlier kick off. Those that did not were either at less well equipped clubs, or at a supermarket. All the players and managers were ready to play.
I dont know about you but I really wanted to see that game today, and the facts presented to us by those who were actually there, particularly BDL and Airman Brown, leave me in no doubt that another referee would indeed have let the game go ahead, although he my have had to remind one of his linesman that he is there to provide a service too.
I know what you are saying and why, PA. And possibly another ref would have made a different decision.
But Kings Hill has a real point. The club was far too gung-ho about the game going ahead, apparently based on the Christmas Eve inspection. Given the low temperatures overnight on Friday and Sat, they should have recognised there would be a need for further inspections (they clearly did not, as there was no mention of the possibility on the OS, and even the Friday inspection was described by the OS as merely ''precautionary'').
There should have been an inspection on Xmas Day or at 9am this morning at the latest. Did the club ask Mr D'Urso to arrive earlier than 10.30 am? Or had we kidded ourselves on the strength of Friday's inspection that all was fine and so we weren't fussed what time he showed up today?
I think the truth of the matter from reading between the lines of Airman's post is that we are just fans and thus should take it or leave it.
Referees and Sky television call the shots and there is bu**** all fans or even clubs can do about it.
If you don't like it find something else to do on Saturday afternoons at the times Sky decide you deserve to watch a game of football.
I know what you are saying and why, PA. And possibly another ref would have made a different decision.
But Kings Hill has a real point. The club was far too gung-ho about the game going ahead, apparently based on the Christmas Eve inspection. Given the low temperatures overnight on Friday and Sat, they should have recognised there would be a need for further inspections (they clearly did not, as there was no mention of the possibility on the OS, and even the Friday inspection was described by the OS as merely ''precautionary'').
There should have been an inspection on Xmas Day or at 9am this morning at the latest. Did the club ask Mr D'Urso to arrive earlier than 10.30 am? Or had we kidded ourselves on the strength of Friday's inspection that all was fine and so we weren't fussed what time he showed up today?
Given that D'Urso couldn't make a decision at "10.30" or at 11.30, what would have been achieved by an inspection 24 hours earlier? The club had no reason to ask the referee to turn up earlier, because it did not believe and still doesn't that there was a problem with the pitch. Neither did any of the professionals involved, except the officials.
I don't know what more the Club could have done - and that's coming from someone who 72 hours ago that he could have his first Boxing Day off from work in eight years and was then bought a Christmas Day present of a ticket for the match by his eldest son! I queued with my boy to get a refund for the three tickets he had bought. We had no issues because the refund went straight back on his card.
There were, however, a number of angry supporters who were told that they would not be refunded cash as "it was not the Club's policy to do so" even though that was the method used to purchase them. In one case a gentleman, had it seems, spent £100 at 11.50 and was told just 20 minutes after doing so that he would have to take a cheque. I appreciate that one or two of the most vociferous of disenchanted supporters were eventually refunded in cash but surely common sense should have prevailed and all those fans who chose to seek their money back should have been accomodated?
[cite]Posted By: seth plum[/cite]If the match is called off the officials STILL GET PAID THEIR MATCH FEES!
INCORRECT. The match officials who arrive at the ground and the game is called off get half their match fee and expenses. Not full match fee.
OK they get half then...and what is the half fee they each get at this level?
...and expenses, obviously not for a common sense transplant.
Maybe the power trip they experienced is more effective than viagra.
On the cash refund issue, we agree and that's why the policy was suspended so that they could be made. it clearly wasn't designed for this situation, but it is in place for a reason and therefore it required a management decision to change. It's not something for the staff at the window to decide.
Comments
Phoned The Valley at 10-55am and told "The game is Definetly ON". I asked,politely, if that was 100% and was told "I just told you".
Got my cab (£25) 5 minutes later..........
Then send your bill to D'Urso Paul - EVERYONE thought the game would be on apart from one person!
lib was very quiet before kick off....so not sure if people left it till the last minute. think i saw a few lifers in there..but never know what to say 'oh are u on charlton life?'.....'no go away you geek'
anyway, there was a few neutrals there today in the queue for a refund....some bloke from brentford was screaming ''southampton should sue this club''....but then after he pulled out and starting drinking what looked like a bottle of paul smith aftershave i knew he wasnt a full ticket.
andy d'urso is a wanker
Agree, MOG. I think the club was naive and possibly even a little irresponsible in its gung-ho insistence until less than an hour before it was called off that everything was fine and the game was ''definitely on''.
Not sure exactly where the blame lies. Possibly in several directions. I think there are questions to be asked not only of D'Urso but about the inspection by stand-in ref Phil Crossley on Friday. We don't know exactly what he said, but the club chose to report the results of his inspection as ''no problem'' and ''game on'' , when a little more caution and a more qualified interpetation might have been prudent. How did they not even anticipate that there would need to be a further pitch inspection on Sunday morning when the Met office was predicting overnight temperatures falling to minus five?
WE, the paying customers have the best redress, and it is probably down to us.
The problem is that we are not well organised as a unit. It would be nice if there was a lawyer among us with a reasonable idea about whether we have a case for compensation. It wouldn't be about the money, but about getting these idiots to be more responsive to us, without whom there would be no professional football.
Wouldn't happen to know His address would you BDL ?
.
The Billericay address and phone number of Andrew P D'Urso and his wife Paula are indeed listed on 192, although the info seems to relate to the electoral register in 2002-4, so it is possible he has since moved. If you give him a call , MOG, do let us know how you get on !
This, IMO, is a crucial question. I think it is also pretty important to know why, just prior to his decision, he couldn't have allowed some extra time to sort out the remaining problem areas. The blowers were available and the sun was warming things up. A lot of supporters had already arrived and most others would have been on their way. He made two crap decisions as far as I'm concerned, and I, and presumably many others, would like some answers. So how can we best go about getting them?
His Wife said he's out having his ego massaged...........
I drove an 160 mile round trip only for this Referee to use the day to become the center of attention.
I don't think this man should be aloud to get away with this decision and there must be some way we can vent our anger with what is quite clearly a terrible decision.
If that was the other side of Charlton Park then don't worry about it, we were fed up too.
What makes it worse was that we both suspected that the game would be called off and that the club would leave it as late as possible on the off chance that it would go ahead.
For what ever the actual reason it is no better than the debarcle that happened when we were half an hour away from Walsall last winter.
It was very cold last night and there was frost on cars in Eynsford when I got to my Dad's but as there was no snow and the temperatures were not that low it must have been possible for someone at the club to make a decision earlier than they did. If there was some doubt then the Ref should have been called in yesterday or on Christmas Eve. I know this is not popular but as the weather was not that bad the game should have been called off on Friday. The club clearly had a financial incentive for it to go ahead today rather than midweek in January or February but the gamble actually costs the fans in terms of travel and wasted time.
I seriously doubt that the Ref, whom ever it is, would call off a game when it can be played, and on that basis one does have to ask the question how can the club not have known there was a possibility of this happening. If they didn't then I believe that the employee that determined, or predicted, the ref's decision should be looked at very closely.
In this day and age there is no excuse for the game being called of so late!
Okay things change, and it was a very harsh frost, so why leave it so late to 'inspect'.! I think this should have been done no later than 10 o'clock. The areas concerned could have been re-inspected at say 11pm with any specific interim reccomendations 'if' the ref had concerns!. From what I have read, this agenda as they say got 'changed' and a fresh\different concern was raised, without giving the teams\ groundstaff any opportunity to rectify this position...... quote 'myself'
Yes, the caprice panderings of this individual could have been 'considered' given the opportunity, which of course seemed to be at the heart of this bizzare escapade!....... but then he would not be at the centre of all this attention, so lavishly enrobbed on this official. Well done ref, I think you managed to piss everyone off!
I think that is most unfair on the Club. They didnt 'gamble", they worked their asses off to get it on, for you and for me. As did 40 odd fans, some of whom are right here. Two other games in London went ahead, one with an earlier kick off. Those that did not were either at less well equipped clubs, or at a supermarket. All the players and managers were ready to play.
I dont know about you but I really wanted to see that game today, and the facts presented to us by those who were actually there, particularly BDL and Airman Brown, leave me in no doubt that another referee would indeed have let the game go ahead, although he my have had to remind one of his linesman that he is there to provide a service too.
I know what you are saying and why, PA. And possibly another ref would have made a different decision.
But Kings Hill has a real point. The club was far too gung-ho about the game going ahead, apparently based on the Christmas Eve inspection. Given the low temperatures overnight on Friday and Sat, they should have recognised there would be a need for further inspections (they clearly did not, as there was no mention of the possibility on the OS, and even the Friday inspection was described by the OS as merely ''precautionary'').
There should have been an inspection on Xmas Day or at 9am this morning at the latest. Did the club ask Mr D'Urso to arrive earlier than 10.30 am? Or had we kidded ourselves on the strength of Friday's inspection that all was fine and so we weren't fussed what time he showed up today?
No club official has the authority to call the game off. If there is a safety issue elsewhere in the stadium, the safety officer/the police will advise referee and he will do what he is told. There was no such safety issue.
In accordance with the rules, the club arranged for a referee to visit on Friday and he ruled the pitch playable at that time. Paddy worked on the pitch yesterday and he was happy with it.
Clearly this doesn't mean that it can't become unplayable overnight, but the only person who can call the match off on the day is the appointed referee or another referee appointed by the League if he can't get there. Mr D'Urso was able to get there and arrived at approximately 10.30 - I've been told later, but let's take his time. The club cannot control his arrival time. He looked at the pitch and eventually decided he wanted to look again at 11.30. After extensive discussions at 11.30 he decided that he wanted to look again at 12.00 and delay the kick-off. At that point he called the game off.
It's the view of the groundsman, both managers, all the players and numerous ex-pros that the pitch was perfectly playable, quite apart from what we think as fans. Even Mr D'Urso clearly thought it was a marginal decision or he wouldn't have made three different inspections.
In my opinion, him turning up two and a half hours before kick-off in the prevailing weather conditions and knowing that fans had to travel from Southampton is open to criticism, but there is no mechanism for "someone at the club" to make an earlier decision. Specifically, we are not allowed to make the decision and we would not have made it because we do not agree with it.
In terms of finance, calling a game off one hour before kick-off is the worst possible scenario from every perspective, including financial. All the staff and police costs have to be paid, coach firms have to be paid and food is wasted in large quantities. While it's true that the revenue for a rearranged game will be much lower, we would never run the risk of what happened today if we could possibly avoid it because it is a huge waste of time and money for everyone involved.
Sadly, the only inquiry likely to follow is the football authorities challenging the club for criticising the referee. Regardless of that, I would urge people not pursue him privately because that will only make a bad situation worse.
"Have to back up a previous post;
Phoned The Valley at 10-55am and told "The game is Definetly ON". I asked,politely, if that was 100% and was told "I just told you".
Got my cab (£25) 5 minutes later"..........
Thanks MOG.
I always try to give credit where due but I will also criticise where due.
D'Urso may well have small knob complex or something, hence his need to be the centre of attention and ruin the day of 15,000 plus people, but you too had the same experience as me which suggests that the Club's Communications were not as good as they should have been.
I think the truth of the matter from reading between the lines of Airman's post is that we are just fans and thus should take it or leave it.
Referees and Sky television call the shots and there is bu**** all fans or even clubs can do about it.
If you don't like it find something else to do on Saturday afternoons at the times Sky decide you deserve to watch a game of football.
Given that D'Urso couldn't make a decision at "10.30" or at 11.30, what would have been achieved by an inspection 24 hours earlier? The club had no reason to ask the referee to turn up earlier, because it did not believe and still doesn't that there was a problem with the pitch. Neither did any of the professionals involved, except the officials.
And get home to their families on Boxing day. Convenient isn't it.
I don't know what more the Club could have done - and that's coming from someone who 72 hours ago that he could have his first Boxing Day off from work in eight years and was then bought a Christmas Day present of a ticket for the match by his eldest son! I queued with my boy to get a refund for the three tickets he had bought. We had no issues because the refund went straight back on his card.
There were, however, a number of angry supporters who were told that they would not be refunded cash as "it was not the Club's policy to do so" even though that was the method used to purchase them. In one case a gentleman, had it seems, spent £100 at 11.50 and was told just 20 minutes after doing so that he would have to take a cheque. I appreciate that one or two of the most vociferous of disenchanted supporters were eventually refunded in cash but surely common sense should have prevailed and all those fans who chose to seek their money back should have been accomodated?
INCORRECT. The match officials who arrive at the ground and the game is called off get half their match fee and expenses. Not full match fee.
OK they get half then...and what is the half fee they each get at this level?
...and expenses, obviously not for a common sense transplant.
Maybe the power trip they experienced is more effective than viagra.