Do supporters have the right to know the names of the investor group seeking to take control of Charlton before the deal is concluded ? (Article below this post)
It has been five days since it was announced that an ‘investor group’ are in the advanced stages of acquiring the club from Baton 2010 (Murray family). If concluded, it will signal the biggest shift in ownership of our club for nearly 20 years.
No further details have emerged since the opening release last Thursday. Peter Varney, we were told, was representing the ‘investor group’. This gave initial cheer and backing from the wider supporter community as Varney is perceived by his track record as an excellent Chief Executive as a sensible trustworthy figure worth backing, and a dyed-in-the-wool fan to boot.
But there is no real indication of just how involved Varney is within this group. Is he a key player in the likely restructuring of the Club going forward, or has he merely acted as a middleman for the group during the negotiation stage ?
If it emerges that it is the later, then it could appear that putting Varney’s name out there in the limited information release is an exercise in attempting to gain reassurance from the fanbase in the same way a failed Southampton takeover consortium used Matt Le Tissier as their ‘representative’ last year.
So what do we know of this ‘investor group’ ? We know though Varney’s historically favoured mouthpiece, the South London Press, that an offer has been agreed, proof of funds has been satisfied by the Club, but not yet the Club’s bankers. Neither has the Football League’s fit and proper person test been passed, though this in the past has proved as challenging as throwing a pebble into the sea. The aim, all being well if the books stack up on our side, and they are legitimate, is to conclude the deal by December 24th.
But we know absolutely zero about the make-up of this investor group, who it involves, where they are based, and what their intentions are for the club going forward. It is looking increasingly likely that we will not find out any further details until the deal is concluded.
But is that right ?
Should supporters, the only real constant in a football clubs’ existence and ultimately the most important customers and stakeholders, not have a right to know who it is that may be owning their club in a few weeks time ?
To be clear, the details of the deal should rightly be maintained purely in private. That is entirely the business of the parties involved in the negotiations and no interest to outsiders other than through curiosity.
But knowing the names and backgrounds of the individuals who will carry the keys to OUR club goes beyond curiosity doesn’t it ?
Surely that is the fundamental right of the support base who will once again be asked to back the club in body and in pocket by these potential new owners for years to come.
If a sale has been agreed, as well as poring over the minute details of the clubs books, building goodwill and engaging with your potential customers should be ranking as just as high. This is a Club that has been regressing for seven seasons, and seen a sharp fall in active supporters during that period.
Not wishing to shout the odds until a deal is fully concluded is completely understandable, and a sensible approach to adopt.
But equally a backdrop of intrigue, mystery, silence and unfounded speculation at a key time where we actually stand a chance in progressing for the first time in years could well provide an unwanted destabilising effect, and unnecessary sideshow as speculation moves steadily from the sublime to the ridiculous.
Our Club is ready for change, it is desperately needed to reinvigorate it, and if potential investor intentions are progressive and realistic, we are ready to wholeheartedly endorse it.
But knowing who they are is a key factor that should be shared with us. Maintaining a mystery silence raises more questions of whether they are a fully committed to the deal, or have anything to hide, rather than support of a dignified hush.
We don’t need the details and we don’t need to be wooed.
We just want to know who you are.
Do you agree or do you see things differently ? Vote in the poll and add your view below
I agree that we should be made aware of who if not the details yet. And I feel that PV's role doesn't extend much beyond introducing the parties to one another and acting as a mouthpiece for the group. Whoever it is needs us onside so why not start now?
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]It has been five days since it was announced
So you see the timeline as relevent ? Once a sale has been 'agreed' and publicly announced, which this one has contrary to anything murky emerging, i don't see what difference one day or twenty days makes.
As said, this is well past the tooing and froing stage of people showing tentative interest.
A few people are voting for no, iit would be really good if somone could post a sensible reply to back that and provide balance.
I guess they must have their reasons, and realistically we don't have a choice except to accept that Murray and Varney will have done the best they possibly can in getting the right people in the door, and if maintaining secrecy helps this happen then so be it (a realists No for me)
edit additional: the zabeel deal was announced, and that went wrong for a number of reasons, but could have unsettled the squad due to the large amount of money likely to be on the table, additionally it might affect the cost of some dealings in the window - so perhaps we will not really know until Christmas, by which time a number of deals may have been done
I for one would like to know who but not the details of the deal, Lets get that Aussie to give us the names as he is good at getting secrets out on the net.
If the Buyer wishes to remain anonymous that is fine with me, we the fans are the lifeblood of the club but do we have any rights, well no not really, apart from the right not to turn up if we decide we don't like the new owner. I am glad it is shrouded in secrecy it's the successful charlton way of old. I think we need to be able to trust the lIkes of Richard Murray & Peter Varney that they do have the best interests of CAFC at heart & this deal is the best one that could be secured before the un-thinkable happened.
I voted no on the basis that we, ultimately anyway, are customers of the club therefore we don't have a right per se to know the identity of any potential owners. If we don't like it, like every other customer we can vote with our feet. I know that's a extremely simplistic view of an emotional subject but that's the bottom line isn't it?
That said it would of course be nice to know (and I'm amazed it hasn't already come out anyway) but I'm sure the parties involved have good reasons for not disclosing these at this time and if in doing so it would in any way put the deal at risk then I'm happy waiting for a couple of weeks more before spitting my dummy out because Nick Griffin's decided owning a football club would be good for his image ;-)
AFKA let me say first off this is a good subject to debate, so thanks for starting it. As for my vote, I went with 'No' after giving some thought to the subject and, of course, reading your viewpoint.
Any 'prospective' buyer/investor does have the right, IMHO, to remain annonymous until the 'deal' is signed, sealed and delivered. We have seen too often in the recent past, not just with Zeeble and others (Sainsbury's) here at Charlton, but elsewhere as well, (Shef Wed) that hopes are raised then 'dashed' when they fall through, which, whilst it may not be the main reason for this buyer to remain confidential, will have had an impact.
I have a different view however that, perhaps RM, should have kept quiet until the buyers/investors were ready to sign. This may have been the more sensible approach, it stops speculation, after all it may (seeing as no-one knows who they are) end up being a 'let down' for all those (myself included) who are hoping for a 'Mr/Mrs Meggabucks' which doesn't materilasie.
Would we have been any worse/better off if the announcement wasn't made last Thursday, after all nothing is concluded, so why announce. We all knew RM was looking to sell/get new investment, so why the pre-announcement?
Having said all that, I enjoy reading and contributing to the 'Takeover thread', but in all honesty what we think we know/dont know isnt going to affect the outcome.
Only 17 days to wait and then we can either be dancing in the streets, or just raising an eyebrow about 'the staus quo' being maintained just a different name at the head of the table.
I'm sure many wont agree with my view, but lets just wait and see.
Edited to add -: It may be the new investors want to keep quiet until all due diligence is completed as it may affect their 'other' business interests, should it potentially go wrong, and details emerge before the detail has been concluded.
If they want privacy, they want privacy and there must be a good reason for that.
However hard it is we just have to remain patient. Legally we wouldn't have a right as minority shareholders so I suppose as "customers" we are right down the list. Trust in Murray and Varney, we have no other option.
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]It has been five days since it was announced
So you see the timeline as relevent ? Once a sale has been 'agreed' and publicly announced, which this one has contrary to anything murky emerging, i don't see what difference one day or twenty days makes.
As said, this is well past the tooing and froing stage of people showing tentative interest.
A few people are voting for no, iit would be really good if somone could post a sensible reply to back that and provide balance.
I voted no because we don't IMHO have a "right" to know. We have a desire to know and an important stake in the Club as you say but not a "right" more's the pity.
And yes I think the timeline is relevant. If as you say you see no difference between one day or 20 then why not run the poll on day one? It is frustrating waiting to hear but we have been given a deadline and that is only 17 days away.
The more important questions, for me at least, are not who they are but what their goals, what resources they will be committing to achieve them and the "values", for want of a better word, that will inform the way they do things.
I voted no. As supporters I don't think we have a right to know who the group are. I do think that speculation that fills the information vacuum is never going to be good as it generally jumps to extremes (loads of cash or dodgy people hiding behind a figure we look on favourably).
It is premature for the potential buyer/s (and potential is all they are currently - even if they are already a long way down the road), to come out in public and make statements as to who they are and what they want to do. To do so is unfair on the fans and the club's staff in my view until everything is finalised. I can understand the wish for fans to conduct their own 'due diligence' on the potential new owners to see if they pass the Charlton test, but do we really have a clear idea of what we want? Is it huge buckets or cash, is it some relatively wealthy fans? Without a clear idea of what we as fans are expecting it is unfair to raise the pressure on those involved by demanding information from them before pens are put to paper. All it will do is provoke a feeding frenzy on this site (and elsewhere) of people arguing about whether or not this is a good thing with little informed content to make sense of things. A group of divided fans are not going to help matters. If we had a strong central voice as fans that could ask some sensible structured questions of those looking to invest I would be all for it, but as it stands, we have no such thing and a mob approach demanding 'who are ya' is like to be neither positive or useful.
If the Buyer wishes to remain anonymous that is fine with me, we the fans are the lifeblood of the club but do we have any rights, well no not really, apart from the right not to turn up if we decide we don't like the new owner. I am glad it is shrouded in secrecy it's the successful charlton way of old. I think we need to be able to trust the lIkes of Richard Murray & Peter Varney that they do have the best interests of CAFC at heart & this deal is the best one that could be secured before the un-thinkable happened.
Patience is a virtue.
What he said
I am itching to know but acknowledge that this is how we did things under Murray / Varney and this was pretty successful back then.
I'm surprised there hasn't been a leak of any sort though - this could be one of two things imo. 1 - Foreigners who want anonymity or 2 - It's someone "unpopular" (Wise and chums)
[cite]Posted By: kigelia[/cite]
It is premature for the potential buyer/s (and potential is all they are currently - even if they are already a long way down the road), to come out in public and make statements as to who they are and what they want to do. To do so is unfair on the fans and the club's staff in my view until everything is finalised. I can understand the wish for fans to conduct their own 'due diligence' on the potential new owners to see if they pass the Charlton test, but do we really have a clear idea of what we want?
Key points and what do we want?
IF IF IF the takeover goes through what exactly do we want from the new owners?
It would be good to compile a list of points that go beyond "a new keeper/striker/left back and a scoreboard" (although I'd have all of those : - )
Because of the negative effect it had on the fans, the team and the club in general when Zabeel was announced and subsequently fell through. We could do without that happening again.
That's not to say that I am not dieing to find out who it is (I think we all are) - but I understand and agree with Richard Murrays reasons for being discreet this time.
[cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite]Key points and what do we want?
IF IF IF the takeover goes through what exactly do we want from the new owners?
It would be good to compile a list of points that go beyond "a new keeper/striker/left back and a scoreboard" (although I'd have all of those : - )
This should probably have it's own thread. I would be surprised if there was much disagreement between us - we don't want miracles and neither do we want to stay in League One beyond the end of this season! It's all very well to have a grand vision, but I prefer one step at a time.
I voted no for the same reasons as everyone above.
However, if the new investors wanted anonymity, I couldn't think of a worse business to invest in than the football business. The last anonymous owner I heard of was Notts County's; look how that ended up!
Im not sure why RM announced the sale of the club before anything had been actually finalised.
If the club fails the due diligence then we wont be sold, so why not just wait until Dec 24?
The only reason i can think at this moment is they are hoping to sell more season tickets in the run up until xmas, planting the seed in peoples heads that we maybe on the verge of a big bucks buy out is decent attempt get some of the crowds to return.
I've voted no. It is the right of the buyer as has been previously said.
It is entirely feasible we may not know after completion as the ultimate buyer/s may still want anonymity especially if it could affect cost of player purchase or similar.
I voted with my heart so it was a yes as I'd love to know more of the detail. I probably should have voted no because we don't have a "right" to know. I used to be a shareholder until I gave up my rights to Mr Murray a couple of months ago...when maybe I would have had a right to know. At present, ever the optimist, I think that "no news is good news", but I must admit I hope that Varney is more than just the Mr fixit and is actually involved, and will stay involved, going forward. Most acqusitions of this nature remain silent until after they are a done deal. This is no different.
Voted No.We have to trust both Murray and Varney on this. I cannot see Murray selling too a bunch a wide boys and at the same time i couldnt see forecast Varney associating himself with such people.
This is going to be a process that takes time, and for the right reasons, lets not get our hopes up as we did before as i believe the club has never recovered from that first announcement.
Comments
No further details have emerged since the opening release last Thursday. Peter Varney, we were told, was representing the ‘investor group’. This gave initial cheer and backing from the wider supporter community as Varney is perceived by his track record as an excellent Chief Executive as a sensible trustworthy figure worth backing, and a dyed-in-the-wool fan to boot.
But there is no real indication of just how involved Varney is within this group. Is he a key player in the likely restructuring of the Club going forward, or has he merely acted as a middleman for the group during the negotiation stage ?
If it emerges that it is the later, then it could appear that putting Varney’s name out there in the limited information release is an exercise in attempting to gain reassurance from the fanbase in the same way a failed Southampton takeover consortium used Matt Le Tissier as their ‘representative’ last year.
So what do we know of this ‘investor group’ ? We know though Varney’s historically favoured mouthpiece, the South London Press, that an offer has been agreed, proof of funds has been satisfied by the Club, but not yet the Club’s bankers. Neither has the Football League’s fit and proper person test been passed, though this in the past has proved as challenging as throwing a pebble into the sea. The aim, all being well if the books stack up on our side, and they are legitimate, is to conclude the deal by December 24th.
But we know absolutely zero about the make-up of this investor group, who it involves, where they are based, and what their intentions are for the club going forward. It is looking increasingly likely that we will not find out any further details until the deal is concluded.
But is that right ?
Should supporters, the only real constant in a football clubs’ existence and ultimately the most important customers and stakeholders, not have a right to know who it is that may be owning their club in a few weeks time ?
To be clear, the details of the deal should rightly be maintained purely in private. That is entirely the business of the parties involved in the negotiations and no interest to outsiders other than through curiosity.
But knowing the names and backgrounds of the individuals who will carry the keys to OUR club goes beyond curiosity doesn’t it ?
Surely that is the fundamental right of the support base who will once again be asked to back the club in body and in pocket by these potential new owners for years to come.
If a sale has been agreed, as well as poring over the minute details of the clubs books, building goodwill and engaging with your potential customers should be ranking as just as high. This is a Club that has been regressing for seven seasons, and seen a sharp fall in active supporters during that period.
Not wishing to shout the odds until a deal is fully concluded is completely understandable, and a sensible approach to adopt.
But equally a backdrop of intrigue, mystery, silence and unfounded speculation at a key time where we actually stand a chance in progressing for the first time in years could well provide an unwanted destabilising effect, and unnecessary sideshow as speculation moves steadily from the sublime to the ridiculous.
Our Club is ready for change, it is desperately needed to reinvigorate it, and if potential investor intentions are progressive and realistic, we are ready to wholeheartedly endorse it.
But knowing who they are is a key factor that should be shared with us. Maintaining a mystery silence raises more questions of whether they are a fully committed to the deal, or have anything to hide, rather than support of a dignified hush.
We don’t need the details and we don’t need to be wooed.
We just want to know who you are.
Do you agree or do you see things differently ? Vote in the poll and add your view below
So you see the timeline as relevent ? Once a sale has been 'agreed' and publicly announced, which this one has contrary to anything murky emerging, i don't see what difference one day or twenty days makes.
As said, this is well past the tooing and froing stage of people showing tentative interest.
A few people are voting for no, iit would be really good if somone could post a sensible reply to back that and provide balance.
edit additional: the zabeel deal was announced, and that went wrong for a number of reasons, but could have unsettled the squad due to the large amount of money likely to be on the table, additionally it might affect the cost of some dealings in the window - so perhaps we will not really know until Christmas, by which time a number of deals may have been done
If the Buyer wishes to remain anonymous that is fine with me, we the fans are the lifeblood of the club but do we have any rights, well no not really, apart from the right not to turn up if we decide we don't like the new owner. I am glad it is shrouded in secrecy it's the successful charlton way of old. I think we need to be able to trust the lIkes of Richard Murray & Peter Varney that they do have the best interests of CAFC at heart & this deal is the best one that could be secured before the un-thinkable happened.
Patience is a virtue.
That said it would of course be nice to know (and I'm amazed it hasn't already come out anyway) but I'm sure the parties involved have good reasons for not disclosing these at this time and if in doing so it would in any way put the deal at risk then I'm happy waiting for a couple of weeks more before spitting my dummy out because Nick Griffin's decided owning a football club would be good for his image ;-)
A. Because I'm inquisitive/impatient and want to know who is taking over my club.
B. Because I'm worried as to what there intentions are. I don't want a Mike Ashley/Gillet and Hicks/Portsmouth situation.
I think if I could have B answered I would be happy with that, and at the moment wouldn't need A to be answered.
Any 'prospective' buyer/investor does have the right, IMHO, to remain annonymous until the 'deal' is signed, sealed and delivered. We have seen too often in the recent past, not just with Zeeble and others (Sainsbury's) here at Charlton, but elsewhere as well, (Shef Wed) that hopes are raised then 'dashed' when they fall through, which, whilst it may not be the main reason for this buyer to remain confidential, will have had an impact.
I have a different view however that, perhaps RM, should have kept quiet until the buyers/investors were ready to sign. This may have been the more sensible approach, it stops speculation, after all it may (seeing as no-one knows who they are) end up being a 'let down' for all those (myself included) who are hoping for a 'Mr/Mrs Meggabucks' which doesn't materilasie.
Would we have been any worse/better off if the announcement wasn't made last Thursday, after all nothing is concluded, so why announce. We all knew RM was looking to sell/get new investment, so why the pre-announcement?
Having said all that, I enjoy reading and contributing to the 'Takeover thread', but in all honesty what we think we know/dont know isnt going to affect the outcome.
Only 17 days to wait and then we can either be dancing in the streets, or just raising an eyebrow about 'the staus quo' being maintained just a different name at the head of the table.
I'm sure many wont agree with my view, but lets just wait and see.
Edited to add -: It may be the new investors want to keep quiet until all due diligence is completed as it may affect their 'other' business interests, should it potentially go wrong, and details emerge before the detail has been concluded.
If they want privacy, they want privacy and there must be a good reason for that.
However hard it is we just have to remain patient. Legally we wouldn't have a right as minority shareholders so I suppose as "customers" we are right down the list. Trust in Murray and Varney, we have no other option.
I voted no because we don't IMHO have a "right" to know. We have a desire to know and an important stake in the Club as you say but not a "right" more's the pity.
And yes I think the timeline is relevant. If as you say you see no difference between one day or 20 then why not run the poll on day one? It is frustrating waiting to hear but we have been given a deadline and that is only 17 days away.
The more important questions, for me at least, are not who they are but what their goals, what resources they will be committing to achieve them and the "values", for want of a better word, that will inform the way they do things.
It is premature for the potential buyer/s (and potential is all they are currently - even if they are already a long way down the road), to come out in public and make statements as to who they are and what they want to do. To do so is unfair on the fans and the club's staff in my view until everything is finalised. I can understand the wish for fans to conduct their own 'due diligence' on the potential new owners to see if they pass the Charlton test, but do we really have a clear idea of what we want? Is it huge buckets or cash, is it some relatively wealthy fans? Without a clear idea of what we as fans are expecting it is unfair to raise the pressure on those involved by demanding information from them before pens are put to paper. All it will do is provoke a feeding frenzy on this site (and elsewhere) of people arguing about whether or not this is a good thing with little informed content to make sense of things. A group of divided fans are not going to help matters. If we had a strong central voice as fans that could ask some sensible structured questions of those looking to invest I would be all for it, but as it stands, we have no such thing and a mob approach demanding 'who are ya' is like to be neither positive or useful.
What he said
I am itching to know but acknowledge that this is how we did things under Murray / Varney and this was pretty successful back then.
I'm surprised there hasn't been a leak of any sort though - this could be one of two things imo. 1 - Foreigners who want anonymity or 2 - It's someone "unpopular" (Wise and chums)
Time will tell I guess
Key points and what do we want?
IF IF IF the takeover goes through what exactly do we want from the new owners?
It would be good to compile a list of points that go beyond "a new keeper/striker/left back and a scoreboard" (although I'd have all of those : - )
However as others have said, I don't think we have the "right" to know.
For whatever reason or reasons they want some privacy, and again as already said there could be good reasons for that.
Because of the negative effect it had on the fans, the team and the club in general when Zabeel was announced and subsequently fell through. We could do without that happening again.
That's not to say that I am not dieing to find out who it is (I think we all are) - but I understand and agree with Richard Murrays reasons for being discreet this time.
This should probably have it's own thread. I would be surprised if there was much disagreement between us - we don't want miracles and neither do we want to stay in League One beyond the end of this season! It's all very well to have a grand vision, but I prefer one step at a time.
However, if the new investors wanted anonymity, I couldn't think of a worse business to invest in than the football business. The last anonymous owner I heard of was Notts County's; look how that ended up!
Im not sure why RM announced the sale of the club before anything had been actually finalised.
If the club fails the due diligence then we wont be sold, so why not just wait until Dec 24?
The only reason i can think at this moment is they are hoping to sell more season tickets in the run up until xmas, planting the seed in peoples heads that we maybe on the verge of a big bucks buy out is decent attempt get some of the crowds to return.
All of a sudden i've got a bad feeling about all this and by the time we find out it might be too late.
Yes if a was still a shared holder (that Murray fella having it on his toes with me shares)
It is entirely feasible we may not know after completion as the ultimate buyer/s may still want anonymity especially if it could affect cost of player purchase or similar.
All of a sudden i've got a bad feeling about all this and by the time we find out it might be too late.[/quote]
Agree why not let the fans know unless its going to be unpopular.
This is going to be a process that takes time, and for the right reasons, lets not get our hopes up as we did before as i believe the club has never recovered from that first announcement.