I loved Kish, and thought he always put a shift in for the team.
I dont think you can compare his performances in midfield to Lisbies performances up front.
The difference in their relative standards is heavily in Kish's favour - but that is only my opinion.
Personally I dont boo ex players as always bites us on the arse, but I have to support the premise that overall in his 10 years at the club, Lisbie didnt perform.
I'm not happy about how this thread is going. At the end of the day no matter how you flower it up with stats, injuries or illness, Lisbie never fulfilled his potential at Charlton despite being given copious amounts of support and chances. I speak as i find so was hugely disapointed when i saw him in the pub that day.
However, i did not and will never boo him or shout abuse at him. But there are those that will now he's an ex player and i dont see the point in digging people out for that.
Hmm - plus his 108 subs appearances that make approx 1 goal every 9 or so games
Yep - utter shite.
A bit unfair I think. Lets say he was on the pitch for an average of 15 minutes in each of those sub appearances. That's another 18 games.
So 19 goals in 68 + 18 = 86 games.
1 goal every 4.5 games in the Premiership
Whereas Deon Burton has 1 goal every 3.3 games
Still not bad enough to describe him as being utter shite I'm afraid
For me Lisbie was a bit of a wasted talent in the Prem, he had the attributes to be a very decent striker. He always seemed to get a lot of chances and if he could have been more consistent with finishing then his goal record would look a lot more impressive.
The Liverpool hat trick was legendary as was to a far less extent his goals against Chelsea and Spurs in 2001/02. However the last memory I have of him in a cafc shirt is the miss v Watford which could have got us 3 points which kind of sums up his cafc career.
[cite]Posted By: queensland_addick[/cite]It's very difficult for a forward returning after a seemingly endless succession of long term injuries into a fairly weak forward line to make an immediate impact.
If he didn't score after the first two games back, the crowd would get on his back, his confidence would suffer and he'd be dropped to the subs bench. It was the combination of bad luck, long term injuries, lack of confidence/composure in front of goal and the lack of support that contrived against him during his Charlton career.
Those factors have reversed since he moved to Colchester and that is reflected in his performances and in the support he receives from the Colchester fans.
He got injured every single time he had a run in the team? With all those sub appearances he was surely on the bench a lot.
The pressure was off at Colchester yes, and he's not been injured as often, but the biggest reason he's done well in League One and the Championship is because it's his level.
Having the composure to take chances in the Premier League is an ability itself, he just never had that.
[cite]Posted By: queensland_addick[/cite]Still not bad enough to describe him as being utter shite I'm afraid
I agree with that yes, but like I said there was a reason he was on the bench so often and not starting, a lot of the time it was because the players ahead of him were better or at least more effective and consistent.
[cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite]He got injured every single time he had a run in the team?
No, every time he started scoring goals.
He got dropped every time he went more than four games without a goal because the crowd got on his back.
[cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite]Having the composure to take chances in the Premier League is an ability itself, he just never had that.
It comes with confidence. As I've said, he was never able to develop that confidence because long term injuries always occured whenever he found goalscoring form. He didn't play for four months following the Liverpool hat trick.
[cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite]I agree with that yes, but like I said there was a reason he was on the bench so often and not starting, a lot of the time it was because the players ahead of him were better or at least more effective and consistent.
What, like Marcus Bent?? Pardew played him just once out on the wing against Arsenal where he was MOM and was only denied a great overhead kick goal by a William Gallas handball on the line. He never got another chance. He never got to play alongside an out and out goalscorer like Darren Bent despite them both having a great understanding on the training pitch.
[cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite]He got injured every single time he had a run in the team?
No, every time he started scoring goals.
He got dropped every time he went more than four games without a goal because the crowd got on his back.
erm....he probably got dropped because he went more than 4 games without a goal!!!...nothing to do with the crowd. Curbs needed goals and Lisbie couldnt guarantee them.
Lisbie played well in 2 games that i can remember. Liverpool at home and Spurs at home. He also nodded in a late header at Chelsea and he hit a screamer out of nowhere to win us a game at Ipswich.
Queensland - can you remember when he did anything else of note in a Charlton shirt? 69 starts and 108 sub appearances and you can probably count his good games on one hand. I said earlier on this thread he was by and large an enigma for us.
As for the booing, he's an opposition player who was whingeing, moaning and trying to get at our players all night, i really don't see the problem in booing him. Would the booing happen if it was Mendonca, Kinsella, Powell or Rufus coming back to play against us? No because they were club legends. Lisbie however is not, he was rubbish.
[cite]Posted By: SoundAsa£[/cite]Queensland...............how long have you been a Lisbian, come on now, out with it?
Lol. Never been called that before. Not even close, I'm a true blue Aussie bloke.
Look, it's gone midnight so will give it a rest now. I've followed his career pretty closely and find his style of play exciting. I always thought he was very talented and would one day come good. He did that against Liverpool but was so unlucky to get injured again straight after. It just seemed that he could never get going at Charlton due to long term injuries which were obviously not his fault. I've met him a couple of times and he was one of the only players who was happy to stand and chat for 20 odd minutes, very down to earth, very open and just a nice guy.
I've seen many players over the years at the Valley, but few would fall into the very exciting category for me. Morts,Walshie, Killer, Flanny, Simmo, Super Clive, maybe Benty. But I'd put Lisbie in there as well. There was rarely a game in which he played where he didn't get through on goal at least once. For anyone who doubts his talent or contribution, they only need to watch the season DVDs from around 2003-4 to see just how many goals he was directly involved in. It surprised even me when I sat down and watched them over again.
When people say he was crap or shite, I consider it to be unfair and unjustified and quite frankly demonstrates a lack of footballing knowledge, and I do like to think of our fans as being more knowledgeable than the average football fan. There's not a crap footballer in the entire world capable of scoring three goals against Liverpool, one of the worlds great teams.
whats all this starts malarkey queensland,plenty times he came on with half hour to spare,the guy was awful plain and simple...and that miss at watford only lisbie could manage that,the stats dont lie
[cite]Posted By: MrOneLung[/cite]I loved Kish, and thought he always put a shift in for the team.
I dont think you can compare his performances in midfield to Lisbies performances up front.
The difference in their relative standards is heavily in Kish's favour - but that is only my opinion.
Personally I dont boo ex players as always bites us on the arse, but I have to support the premise that overall in his 10 years at the club, Lisbie didnt perform.
I loved Kish too but he got booed, often before the game started, just like Lisbie.
Yes they played in different positions but as far as our "fans"were concerned both were scapegoats.
[cite]Posted By: queensland_addick[/cite]It comes with confidence. As I've said, he was never able to develop that confidence because long term injuries always occured whenever he found goalscoring form. He didn't play for four months following the Liverpool hat trick.
I'll say again he's not useless and he wasn't awful for us but when it comes to being a Premier League standard goalscorer he never had it and was never going to get it. Rest of his game was decent, but his composure in front of goal was pretty poor most of the time.
Confidence plays a part yes, but there is more to being composed than simply having confidence. Outside the Prem he can find that bit more space and time because of his other qualities against worse defenders. Mendonca had a natural composure, Bent does to a lesser extent, Lisbie did not and does not.
Lisbie did have at least one run in the team, 04/05 he scored in the first game, just checked and he started the first 10 games. Only scored once.
He had ability to get into good positions, he was decent physically but he isn't and wasn't composed enough to score in the Prem. Perhaps he couldn't handle the pressure and expectations, he didn't perform well for Ipswich either.
For me he's a decent footballer but as a goalscorer he's suited to League One or a small Championship side without the pressure for him to score regularly.
As for the bit mentioning Marcus Bent, I was talking about the likes of Bartlett, Darren Bent, Hunt, JJ for a season and Di Canio when Curbs was here and Lisbie was rightly back up for them.
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]I loved Kish too but he got booed, often before the game started, just like Lisbie.
Me too. Kishishev was a great player. I remember him making the occasional wayward pass (just like others do) and getting booed or a large groan going up but he never hid whatever happened and always tried to make amends. He always gave 100% to the cause.
It seems to me that once some fans take a dislike, there's no way back.
[cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite]I'll say again he's not useless and he wasn't awful for us but when it comes to being a Premier League standard goalscorer he never had it and was never going to get it. Rest of his game was decent, but his composure in front of goal was pretty poor most of the time.
I've never said that he was a natural goalscorer, not in Premiership or even the first division. Despite this he did chip in with a reasonable return in terms of goals per games started ratio.
What he brought to the forward line was speed, skill, the ability to create openings for himself and others, and generally be a real handful for opposing defenders and to make things happen in the final third. He didn't have composure in one on one situations which is why I said that he would have benefited greatly from playing alongside a natural goalscorer such as D Bent who would have relived him of the burden.
He did however have the composure and vision to pick a pass inside the area as evidenced by his great pull back for Konchesky to lob the keeper for our second goal when beating Liverpool at the Valley.
Comments
I dont think you can compare his performances in midfield to Lisbies performances up front.
The difference in their relative standards is heavily in Kish's favour - but that is only my opinion.
Personally I dont boo ex players as always bites us on the arse, but I have to support the premise that overall in his 10 years at the club, Lisbie didnt perform.
got to love our fans. complete ****'s themselves!!!
Id love to know who those 10 games were against. The mighty St Lucia, Bermuda, St Kitts.......
However, i did not and will never boo him or shout abuse at him. But there are those that will now he's an ex player and i dont see the point in digging people out for that.
Yep - utter shite.
A bit unfair I think. Lets say he was on the pitch for an average of 15 minutes in each of those sub appearances. That's another 18 games.
So 19 goals in 68 + 18 = 86 games.
1 goal every 4.5 games in the Premiership
Whereas Deon Burton has 1 goal every 3.3 games
Still not bad enough to describe him as being utter shite I'm afraid
The Liverpool hat trick was legendary as was to a far less extent his goals against Chelsea and Spurs in 2001/02. However the last memory I have of him in a cafc shirt is the miss v Watford which could have got us 3 points which kind of sums up his cafc career.
The pressure was off at Colchester yes, and he's not been injured as often, but the biggest reason he's done well in League One and the Championship is because it's his level.
Having the composure to take chances in the Premier League is an ability itself, he just never had that.
I agree with that yes, but like I said there was a reason he was on the bench so often and not starting, a lot of the time it was because the players ahead of him were better or at least more effective and consistent.
No, every time he started scoring goals.
He got dropped every time he went more than four games without a goal because the crowd got on his back.
It comes with confidence. As I've said, he was never able to develop that confidence because long term injuries always occured whenever he found goalscoring form. He didn't play for four months following the Liverpool hat trick.
What, like Marcus Bent?? Pardew played him just once out on the wing against Arsenal where he was MOM and was only denied a great overhead kick goal by a William Gallas handball on the line. He never got another chance. He never got to play alongside an out and out goalscorer like Darren Bent despite them both having a great understanding on the training pitch.
erm....he probably got dropped because he went more than 4 games without a goal!!!...nothing to do with the crowd. Curbs needed goals and Lisbie couldnt guarantee them.
Queensland - can you remember when he did anything else of note in a Charlton shirt? 69 starts and 108 sub appearances and you can probably count his good games on one hand. I said earlier on this thread he was by and large an enigma for us.
As for the booing, he's an opposition player who was whingeing, moaning and trying to get at our players all night, i really don't see the problem in booing him. Would the booing happen if it was Mendonca, Kinsella, Powell or Rufus coming back to play against us? No because they were club legends. Lisbie however is not, he was rubbish.
Lol. Never been called that before. Not even close, I'm a true blue Aussie bloke.
Look, it's gone midnight so will give it a rest now. I've followed his career pretty closely and find his style of play exciting. I always thought he was very talented and would one day come good. He did that against Liverpool but was so unlucky to get injured again straight after. It just seemed that he could never get going at Charlton due to long term injuries which were obviously not his fault. I've met him a couple of times and he was one of the only players who was happy to stand and chat for 20 odd minutes, very down to earth, very open and just a nice guy.
I've seen many players over the years at the Valley, but few would fall into the very exciting category for me. Morts,Walshie, Killer, Flanny, Simmo, Super Clive, maybe Benty. But I'd put Lisbie in there as well. There was rarely a game in which he played where he didn't get through on goal at least once. For anyone who doubts his talent or contribution, they only need to watch the season DVDs from around 2003-4 to see just how many goals he was directly involved in. It surprised even me when I sat down and watched them over again.
When people say he was crap or shite, I consider it to be unfair and unjustified and quite frankly demonstrates a lack of footballing knowledge, and I do like to think of our fans as being more knowledgeable than the average football fan. There's not a crap footballer in the entire world capable of scoring three goals against Liverpool, one of the worlds great teams.
I loved Kish too but he got booed, often before the game started, just like Lisbie.
Yes they played in different positions but as far as our "fans"were concerned both were scapegoats.
Confidence plays a part yes, but there is more to being composed than simply having confidence. Outside the Prem he can find that bit more space and time because of his other qualities against worse defenders. Mendonca had a natural composure, Bent does to a lesser extent, Lisbie did not and does not.
Lisbie did have at least one run in the team, 04/05 he scored in the first game, just checked and he started the first 10 games. Only scored once.
He had ability to get into good positions, he was decent physically but he isn't and wasn't composed enough to score in the Prem. Perhaps he couldn't handle the pressure and expectations, he didn't perform well for Ipswich either.
For me he's a decent footballer but as a goalscorer he's suited to League One or a small Championship side without the pressure for him to score regularly.
As for the bit mentioning Marcus Bent, I was talking about the likes of Bartlett, Darren Bent, Hunt, JJ for a season and Di Canio when Curbs was here and Lisbie was rightly back up for them.
Me too. Kishishev was a great player. I remember him making the occasional wayward pass (just like others do) and getting booed or a large groan going up but he never hid whatever happened and always tried to make amends. He always gave 100% to the cause.
It seems to me that once some fans take a dislike, there's no way back.
I've never said that he was a natural goalscorer, not in Premiership or even the first division. Despite this he did chip in with a reasonable return in terms of goals per games started ratio.
What he brought to the forward line was speed, skill, the ability to create openings for himself and others, and generally be a real handful for opposing defenders and to make things happen in the final third. He didn't have composure in one on one situations which is why I said that he would have benefited greatly from playing alongside a natural goalscorer such as D Bent who would have relived him of the burden.
He did however have the composure and vision to pick a pass inside the area as evidenced by his great pull back for Konchesky to lob the keeper for our second goal when beating Liverpool at the Valley.