Debt in itself isn't a problem, provided that funding can be secured for it and the cost of the funding can be serviced.
There is the real problem.
A return to the Premiership is probably unlikely within the next 10-15 years given the financial handicap we are now burdened with, so the sooner we adjust costs to the short and medium term revenue expectation the better.
Our revenue will exceed the likes of Orient, Brighton and Yeovil in Div 1, but so will our fixed costs. They are currently in a better financial place.
The problem is the current board may well have a problem confronting that reality and positively dealing with it, and any prospective buyer will baulk at taking on that responsibility, with the alternative of ploughing in money just to stand still.
From the supporters point of view I am sure that the first priority would be to protect the Valley and the very existence of the club, and at this point I would even accept a period in the Conference if those things could be secured.
Having been to the brink 25 years ago, I am sure there are enough supporters willing to take on the journey if they can be led and encouraged.
The evidence of this weeks new signing (when we have a promising youngster already in place) suggests that the process has yet to begin in earnest. Denial still rules.
Regardless of who the owners are, action is needed. We should be told the financial operating realities, the consequences of that on the team, and as far as I am concerned we need to be given a new manager who can take the club (and supporters) forward through some difficult years, leaning heavily on younger players. Steve Brown territory.
I just hope this is all resolved soon as possible. Been horrible everything dragging out all summer. We knew something was going on around a couple of months ago, or there were rumours at least.
I really get the feelng it'll carry for a while, this time next week we still won't have heard anything from the club itself. Probably just a few more bits here and there in the SLP and other sites/papers.
The "additional debt" that has come up may well be budgeted operational expenses that will not be covered by revenues in League 1.
Those costs would not yet be on the books viewed during the due dilegence process, but remain very real nonetheless.
Yet another cost of relegation that wasn't anticipated in December, when it might have actually been more cost effective in the long run had the board board gambled by additional borrowing/spending to try to remain in The Championship against the prospect of Administration in League 1.
What are the motives of the un named source in revealing such details at what is presumably this critical point ? (rest day in negotiations) Sounds like a self serving trouble maker? Why say anything?
[quote][cite]Posted By: American_Addick[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: mart77[/cite]Will be very interesting to see the reports after tonights match and what PP will have to say after.[/quote]
Do you think Parky knows about all of this? And even if he does, he may not be at liberty to comment.[/quote]
I think he knows more than nearly everyone on this board! I'm sure he'll refuse to comment though.
Something earthshakingly positive clearly had to be done in November of 2008 to realistically stave off relegation to the league we now find ourselves in and retain a healthy interest in all things Championship related. The fact that the board went with Parkinson and stuck with him despite the fact that we were as good as down by as early as Christmas clearly shows that the will to fight/money had very clearly gone. Whilst a successful survival attempt would not have affected our troubled financial situation much- dropping to League 1 with such a whimper makes us far more undesirable to any potential buyer. I only hope this is a journalistic plant by the (alleged) buyers and that a week from now we can all breathe more easily. Just as things look like they can't deteriorate any further something else occurs. I think we as fans deserve a slice of luck for a change.
AA- Your bit about gambling by borrowing/spending is what got us in this mess in the first place when we spent unwisely in our last season in prem to tey staying up - the risk didn't work then so I doubt the directors would make that mistake again. Fans are always saying the board should learn from mistakes - from that angle I think they got it right.
They still failed to act quickly with regards to streamlining the business over a year ago perhaps inline with other champ clubs so that we would be better prepared. Blind optimism and believing all of pardews bull*hit didn't help as the damage was done. They were convinced things were ok and didn't plan ahead. I doubt they had budgets for every eventuality and I doubt in oct they had a budget for league 1. Probably just champ and stupidly the prem!!! Seems so silly now.
I really don't think the club have been very good at anticipating things for a while now - even the fans forum event - if they knew somthing was going on they firstly shouldn't have agreed it or then cancelled it 2 days before. Double error imo.
[cite]Posted By: A-R-T-H-U-R[/cite]What are the motives of the un named source in revealing such details at what is presumably this critical point ? (rest day in negotiations)
Sounds like a self serving trouble maker?
Why say anything?
Sailor answered that one I think.
Richard Murray boasted in the paper about the money he (and others) stood to lose and probably antagonised the potential backers.
Ironic that this has only hit the fan since the Q&A was cancelled because of th secret nature of the negotiations.
maybe PP is the leak, his motivation being to create an excuse for the poor start to the season due to off field upheaval (and nothing to do with his lack of managerial ability)....
Having recovered from the shock of the revelations particularly by Mick, I have thought about things some more.
The first thing to say is the financial woes of the club are hardly surprising. Going from Ist to 3rd tier so quickly during a credit crunch is bound to have created a real problem. What we don't know, of course is whether the club has stabilised it's costs? From the sound of it, it hasn't. Thus any buyer needs to look at what cash is going to be needed to keep the club afloat if the club stays where it is for any length of time.
What we don't know, and of course what the buyers don't know is what resources Murray & Co have to keep the club afloat. We assume that they have run out of money but maybe they are playing their cards very close on that one.
We have to assume that the buyers are serious about owning a football club and have a business plan to drive the business forward. They aren't putting the money up for fun, they are serious investors.
The club is not in administration, presumably in large measure due to Murray and Co continuing to underwrite the costs.
So we have a negotiation going on. Unless those who are looking to buy have never been that serious (which I doubt given the length of the process) then I guess it's about who blinks first.
If Murray & Co really don't have the resources to soldier on, then they will know that they will have to reduce the price because there is no upside and it will be time to cut and run. We will find out soon.
Pilchard- I think something had to be done in nov 2008 but I think a manager change wouldnt/didnt even scratch the surface with other underlying issues!
I especially like the quote post from the stripey mug who bothered to post on there that he really doesn't care either way. Nah, course you don't mate!
I do find it kind of funny how every club has a few fans that call other clubs, of a similar size a "plastic club" or a "nothing club", as if the club they dislike is much less important. I'm sure we have fans that say it about Palace. We're a "nothing club" as much as most Championship and below clubs are. Are both capable of being smaller Prem sides down to very average Championship sides (or worse in our case at the moment...), which is where we both are most of the time.
[cite]Posted By: suzisausage[/cite]AA- Your bit about gambling by borrowing/spending is what got us in this mess in the first place when we spent unwisely in our last season in prem to tey staying up - the risk didn't work then so I doubt the directors would make that mistake again. Fans are always saying the board should learn from mistakes - from that angle I think they got it right.
They still failed to act quickly with regards to streamlining the business over a year ago perhaps inline with other champ clubs so that we would be better prepared. Blind optimism and believing all of pardews bull*hit didn't help as the damage was done. They were convinced things were ok and didn't plan ahead. I doubt they had budgets for every eventuality and I doubt in oct they had a budget for league 1. Probably just champ and stupidly the prem!!! Seems so silly now.
I really don't think the club have been very good at anticipating things for a while now - even the fans forum event - if they knew something was going on they firstly shouldn't have agreed it or then cancelled it 2 days before. Double error imo.
The gamble may very well have ended up compounding an error, but meek acceptance by doing nothing was not the right answer, either.
Something had to be done to attempt to avoid relegation. That might have meant spending money to bring in a new manager/coaching staff and a key purchase or two. All very difficult in a bad economy when there is little or no money to spend.
It was going to be a gamble either way.
Would it have been worth it to spend to hilt and stay up, or to end up going down and potentially face insolvency?
Damned if you do; damned if you don't ...
Not an easy decision to make, but in hindsight, doing nothing was not the answer, either.
I agree - spending wasn't the answer imo though. Been there - failed! Coming together streamlining and cost cutting may have been dull but we'd be in a better position now! It wasn't done. They sat and waited and are now dealing with consequences 6 mnths too late.
My question is...what is the nature of this extra debt that no one has discovered until now? The sum involved is quite large and therefore isn't something that can be easily hidden, yet it gets discovered at virtualy the last minute before the T/O is due to be announced. As no one has explained what it is I'm guessing that it's the cost of not getting promoted next season and remaining in League One and the consortium are indulging in a bit of brinkmanship to drive the price down.
I could weep - from potentially being up there with the Man City's of the footballing world at Christmas to staring down the barrel of administration and starting 10 points adrift in Div3. Christ on a bike, when clubs are paying more for one player during the worst recession for decades than it would cost to buy us several times over things have got seriously out of whack in football.
Trying to maintain a similar view to Bing et al in that you don't start the process at all unless you're a serious investor with a proper plan on how to move the club forward...but it's hard to remain positive in the light of the deafening silence from the Boardroom.
realistically could any consortium make money out of charlton??
i really can't see it
i think if there is any takeover it will be like for like , charlton fans , who hopefully have very deep pockets to keep us going till the next miracle manager arrives at our club, although we've been lucky enough to have had 3 already....
I think it is possible to make money out of Charlton (hard as it is to make any money from any club whatsoever) as we have more favourable geography than the vast majority of clubs (good location in the capital, next to a huge potential market with little competition). But people don't take over football clubs to make money do they surely?
First... Thanks Mick Collins, at long last some informed opinion that has been lacking so badly for the past 9 months or so....
I have had a nagging horror that there was a bigger problem than this, hence my approach to the club to explain to the fans pre Christmas .
In fact I spoke to suzi myself when she was at Charlton herself.
The reasons for the Zabeel deal were always confused and unexplained. You can only assume that this discovery was unearthed, or found after investigation by there accountants.....
Frankly I am rather shell shocked by all this.....
The club need to issue a statement of intent, it is no good thinking that the media have it in for Charlton, they see it as a story, and frankly we are small fish these days...... Most people think that Charlton did a great job in getting to the prem, and were a refreshing change from the instant success, and money solves everything attitude.
The club in pr terms have been dreadful over this, there was no need to go into details, but the club could have been a lot more transparent and honest.
I do not mean Max Clifford, or slick PR stuff.... but a bit of honesty goes a long way.
Stone cold silence solves nothing in todays media, perhaps they should seek the advice of people Patrick who understand the way that the media feed on this type of stuff.
Comments
Or are they one and the same ?
and the cost of the funding can be serviced.
There is the real problem.
A return to the Premiership is probably unlikely within the next 10-15 years
given the financial handicap we are now burdened with, so the sooner we
adjust costs to the short and medium term revenue expectation the better.
Our revenue will exceed the likes of Orient, Brighton and Yeovil in Div 1,
but so will our fixed costs. They are currently in a better financial place.
The problem is the current board may well have a problem confronting that
reality and positively dealing with it, and any prospective buyer will baulk
at taking on that responsibility, with the alternative of ploughing in money
just to stand still.
From the supporters point of view I am sure that the first priority would be
to protect the Valley and the very existence of the club, and at this point
I would even accept a period in the Conference if those things could be
secured.
Having been to the brink 25 years ago, I am sure there are enough supporters
willing to take on the journey if they can be led and encouraged.
The evidence of this weeks new signing (when we have a promising youngster
already in place) suggests that the process has yet to begin in earnest.
Denial still rules.
Regardless of who the owners are, action is needed. We should be told the
financial operating realities, the consequences of that on the team, and as
far as I am concerned we need to be given a new manager who can take the
club (and supporters) forward through some difficult years, leaning heavily
on younger players. Steve Brown territory.
Trevor
I really get the feelng it'll carry for a while, this time next week we still won't have heard anything from the club itself. Probably just a few more bits here and there in the SLP and other sites/papers.
Those costs would not yet be on the books viewed during the due dilegence process, but remain very real nonetheless.
Yet another cost of relegation that wasn't anticipated in December, when it might have actually been more cost effective in the long run had the board board gambled by additional borrowing/spending to try to remain in The Championship against the prospect of Administration in League 1.
No one's probably told PP yet.
Sounds like a self serving trouble maker?
Why say anything?
Do you think Parky knows about all of this?
And even if he does, he may not be at liberty to comment.
Humph! :-(
Do you think Parky knows about all of this?
And even if he does, he may not be at liberty to comment.[/quote]
I think he knows more than nearly everyone on this board! I'm sure he'll refuse to comment though.
I think we as fans deserve a slice of luck for a change.
They still failed to act quickly with regards to streamlining the business over a year ago perhaps inline with other champ clubs so that we would be better prepared. Blind optimism and believing all of pardews bull*hit didn't help as the damage was done. They were convinced things were ok and didn't plan ahead. I doubt they had budgets for every eventuality and I doubt in oct they had a budget for league 1. Probably just champ and stupidly the prem!!! Seems so silly now.
I really don't think the club have been very good at anticipating things for a while now - even the fans forum event - if they knew somthing was going on they firstly shouldn't have agreed it or then cancelled it 2 days before. Double error imo.
Sailor answered that one I think.
Richard Murray boasted in the paper about the money he (and others) stood to lose and probably antagonised the potential backers.
Ironic that this has only hit the fan since the Q&A was cancelled because of th secret nature of the negotiations.
Humph! :-([/quote]
Mostly illiterate infantile bile written by no-marks!
The first thing to say is the financial woes of the club are hardly surprising. Going from Ist to 3rd tier so quickly during a credit crunch is bound to have created a real problem. What we don't know, of course is whether the club has stabilised it's costs? From the sound of it, it hasn't. Thus any buyer needs to look at what cash is going to be needed to keep the club afloat if the club stays where it is for any length of time.
What we don't know, and of course what the buyers don't know is what resources Murray & Co have to keep the club afloat. We assume that they have run out of money but maybe they are playing their cards very close on that one.
We have to assume that the buyers are serious about owning a football club and have a business plan to drive the business forward. They aren't putting the money up for fun, they are serious investors.
The club is not in administration, presumably in large measure due to Murray and Co continuing to underwrite the costs.
So we have a negotiation going on. Unless those who are looking to buy have never been that serious (which I doubt given the length of the process) then I guess it's about who blinks first.
If Murray & Co really don't have the resources to soldier on, then they will know that they will have to reduce the price because there is no upside and it will be time to cut and run. We will find out soon.
I DON'T CARE ABOUT THEM.
I especially like the quote post from the stripey mug who bothered to post on there that he really doesn't care either way. Nah, course you don't mate!
I do find it kind of funny how every club has a few fans that call other clubs, of a similar size a "plastic club" or a "nothing club", as if the club they dislike is much less important. I'm sure we have fans that say it about Palace. We're a "nothing club" as much as most Championship and below clubs are. Are both capable of being smaller Prem sides down to very average Championship sides (or worse in our case at the moment...), which is where we both are most of the time.
The gamble may very well have ended up compounding an error, but meek acceptance by doing nothing was not the right answer, either.
Something had to be done to attempt to avoid relegation. That might have meant spending money to bring in a new manager/coaching staff and a key purchase or two. All very difficult in a bad economy when there is little or no money to spend.
It was going to be a gamble either way.
Would it have been worth it to spend to hilt and stay up, or to end up going down and potentially face insolvency?
Damned if you do; damned if you don't ...
Not an easy decision to make, but in hindsight, doing nothing was not the answer, either.
Trying to maintain a similar view to Bing et al in that you don't start the process at all unless you're a serious investor with a proper plan on how to move the club forward...but it's hard to remain positive in the light of the deafening silence from the Boardroom.
i really can't see it
i think if there is any takeover it will be like for like , charlton fans , who hopefully have very deep pockets to keep us going till the next miracle manager arrives at our club, although we've been lucky enough to have had 3 already....
Ask Richard Murray ......
Thanks Mick Collins, at long last some informed opinion that has been lacking so badly for the past 9 months or so....
I have had a nagging horror that there was a bigger problem than this, hence my approach to the club to explain to the fans pre Christmas .
In fact I spoke to suzi myself when she was at Charlton herself.
The reasons for the Zabeel deal were always confused and unexplained. You can only assume that this discovery was unearthed, or found after investigation by there accountants.....
Frankly I am rather shell shocked by all this.....
The club need to issue a statement of intent, it is no good thinking that the media have it in for Charlton, they see it as a story, and frankly we are small fish these days......
Most people think that Charlton did a great job in getting to the prem, and were a refreshing change from the instant success, and money solves everything attitude.
The club in pr terms have been dreadful over this, there was no need to go into details, but the club could have been a lot more transparent and honest.
I do not mean Max Clifford, or slick PR stuff.... but a bit of honesty goes a long way.
Stone cold silence solves nothing in todays media, perhaps they should seek the advice of people Patrick who understand the way that the media feed on this type of stuff.