The other thing that i dont get is and this is not an ideal solution
BUT
if we sold
Jonjo
Bailey
Racon
how much do you think it would raise 4/5 mil maybe then what happens are we still in that precurious position and if yes then the new owners/investors would be willing to hang us out to dry and therefore automatically makes them as bad if not worse than the current board surely.
I cant help but feel no one will come out of this looking to good piss poor PR from all parties and the little snipetsinto the SLP/MOS are piss poor too
[cite]Posted By: nth london addick[/cite]The other thing that i dont get is and this is not an ideal solution
BUT
if we sold
Jonjo
Bailey
Racon
how much do you think it would raise 4/5 mil maybe then what happens are we still in that precurious position and if yes then the new owners/investors would be willing to hang us out to dry and therefore automatically makes them as bad if not worse than the current board surely.
I cant help but feel no one will come out of this looking to good piss poor PR from all parties and the little snipetsinto the SLP/MOS are piss poor too
Spot on, I've been thinking the same thing all along...
[cite]Posted By: bingaddick[/cite]It seems likely to me that the buyers are trying to get a win/win, namely the current friendly debtors to write off their debt/lower the price so that the club can be taken over not in administration, and they are bargaining the administration card with Murray and Co, namely write off the debt/cut the price or we'll walk away. The club will be forced into administration and we'll then walk in and buy it, debt free at a decent price, like what happened at Southampton.
I guess the potential owners are trying to get the lowest price possible, and therefore the best return.
Some are saying this means it can't be a Zabeel type buyer, however Zabeel were interested in us when we were cheap, so clearly money and ROI was an issue back then too. So I suspect this isn't a money no object thing if it ever was.
Re the journo stuff. I really hate all these unattributed sources, it's like a plague in our society at the moment. I have no doubt that Mick is a Charlton fan, but at the moment he has his journo hat on and journos want scoops. I actually feel quite angry that this story was put out late on a Saturday night when it could cause maximum upset for the fans who had absolutely no chance of getting an official line. We're being used, someone wanted the anti to be upped, and us poor sods have become pawns. It's a shitty way to treat us.
I'm sorry you feel like that. It wasn't the intention. The story came out on a Saturday night because we are a Sunday paper. We had no option but to put it out then.
The source is unattributed, but genuine.
I am a journalist at work, and a Charlton fan out of it. Sometimes a story makes it hard to be both. If I'm being honest, this wasn't one of those stories.
The board should come out and say something so all the fans know wots going on its turning in to a right fkin mess and we are at the moment in decline its looking like another dismal season ahead,
things av changed football is no longer a sport its a buisness the big money people av fked up our game and the only people who suffer are the supporters so deep down we should be told wots going on and fk all the messing about.
we have to remember that the vast majority of fans don't have access to Mick Collins's further comments on this story and if most read the MOS they will want to know even more than us what the feck is going on. The least we should expect is a statement from the Club expalining the current situation and either putting the record straight or admitting that we are deeper in the mire than most of us could have imagined.
I wasn't having a go at you Mick, with your journo hat on, your task is straightforward and you have undoubtedly illuminated areas that we have not wanted to see. I'm pissed off at the use of leaks to the press from whichever source. Fans are very upset and it would be nice to know that someone at the top cares enough to enlighten us, because at the moment I'm feeling that we have been taken for fools.
Would I be wrong in assuming that a good journalist used to do more than just publish opinion and facts he was confident were correct. Shouldnt the journalist also look into the reason he was being handed the complete story in the first place. you know some investigation, some depth, as opposed to being the mouthpiece of one interested party in a story involving at least two and depending on the existance of any split in our board, three or more groups with their own viewpoints. Even if one of those groups leaks its news to a local rag is this really the way to respond?
It seems that we arent gonna get a result here.... either 40 mil in debt and the teakover doesnt happen and we continue to spiral into more debt as the running of the club continues to cost more than whats coming in.... so we sell everything...
The board need to step aside and just get out the way and accept that they have lost ALL their money... easier said than done and hard one to swallow and a hard one to sell on the new people coming in's side....
tough one.... if the current board hold on too tight then we are in the stick...
I think we are in the stick whatever actually.... unless the baord just walk away...
It is increasingly evident that the communication from the Club to fans has been at best incompetent at worst wilfully deceitful to suck in as much season ticket money as possible.
I am a season ticket holder for 2009/10 and have paid my money before the Board apologists jump on me and thus feel entitled to express this opinion.
I always try to speak as I find and I'm afraid this is where my views now lie.
Coincidence or cause who knows, but it went markedly down hill once Chappell came on board in my opinion and, again coincidence or cause who knows, Varney left shortly afterwards.
[cite]Posted By: mascot88[/cite]It seems that we arent gonna get a result here.... either 40 mil in debt and the teakover doesnt happen and we continue to spiral into more debt as the running of the club continues to cost more than whats coming in.... so we sell everything...
The board need to step aside and just get out the way and accept that they have lost ALL their money... easier said than done and hard one to swallow and a hard one to sell on the new people coming in's side....
tough one.... if the current board hold on too tight then we are in the stick...
I think we are in the stick whatever actually.... unless the baord just walk away...
Tbh I think that is exactly the purpose of the unattributed quote and the point is that the board have lost every penny and to expect a return on a business that is going to go bust very soon is frankly not on.
This is awful. But the one thing that gives me hope is that Peter Varney is in the mix. I would be much more worried if we knew there was this bid, but it was nothing to do with him.
Due diligence is done for a damn good reason, it generally costs a lot of money, and therefore you act on the results. Otherwise you end up like Mike Ashley. Football is a dodgy business with dodgy money streams in and out. For that reason I don't believe our directors have been particularly negligent or worse. Its perfectly possible that some of them had very little idea themselves of the financial situation.
That said, I do find that my suspicions about the Zabeel withdrawal strengthened. I always found it hard to swallow the idea that Zabeel had suddenly noticed a global financial crisis and had gone back to Dubai to secure the future of their camels. I'd give such people credit for knowing what was coming a bit quicker than the bloody Bank of England did. I think they didn't like what they saw in the due diligence. And maybe having been confronted with the situation themselves, the directors concluded that no more debt could be incurred, and hence they stuck with Parky.
So now the buyers know the reality and they want the price lowered. Of course they do. And of course, if they get the lower price, as the Airman says, there is more money potentially available for the squad.
But I still spare a thought for the current Board members. Its easy for us to say, take a bath of millions for the good of the club. I remain absolutely convinced that Richard Murray, Martin Simons and Mike Stevens have always had the good of the club in their hearts. And let us not forget that Richard Murray employed and showed great commitment to Peter Varney. Imagine the tension in that relationship now. Finally I think we should also note that the Board is not a homogenous beast. Different directors may well have different attitudes to the offer. I wonder if Mick is looking at that particular issue...
Coincidence or cause who knows, but it went markedly down hill once Chappell came on board in my opinion and, again coincidence or cause who knows, Varney left shortly afterwards.
Are you suggesting that all this mess lies at Chappells door?
I'll have you know that Derek helped make the NHS the fine establishment it is today. ;-)
[cite]Posted By: PragueAddick[/cite]That said, I do find that my suspicions about the Zabeel withdrawal strengthened. I always found it hard to swallow the idea that Zabeel had suddenly noticed a global financial crisis and had gone back to Dubai to secure the future of their camels. I'd give such people credit for knowing what was coming a bit quicker than the bloody Bank of England did. I think they didn't like what they saw in the due diligence.
Ooh, this was a shooting down offence at the time!!
Totally agree. Whatever the truth the current board would have been better off dropping the price to Zabeel to a point at which they would deal, however much sunk-cost they "lost" in doing that will look like nothing compared with the loss they'll have to take whenever they do eventually sell. I don't think that administration will happen because the main problem miring the club is "friendly debt". The article finally confirms something that was said a long time ago: specifically that 10 points would be a reasonable price to pay for wiping out debt, but unfortunately with friendly debt it's unlikely to be acceptable.
Lots of info to take in so forgive me if this is answered elsewhere.
1. What is in it for the buyer if we are administration? Do they get CAFC cheaper and what penalties apart from 10 points would the club incur?
2. What is in it for the current owners to keep us out of administration? If a buyer did not come staright away, would we need to sell assets like players, training ground, The Valley? Are their investments somehow protected.
3. If we go into admin and then the new chaps snap us up straight away, do we only suffer a 10 point reduction.
[cite]Posted By: mascot88[/cite]It seems that we arent gonna get a result here.... either 40 mil in debt and the teakover doesnt happen and we continue to spiral into more debt as the running of the club continues to cost more than whats coming in.... so we sell everything...
The board need to step aside and just get out the way and accept that they have lost ALL their money... easier said than done and hard one to swallow and a hard one to sell on the new people coming in's side....
tough one.... if the current board hold on too tight then we are in the stick...
I think we are in the stick whatever actually.... unless the baord just walk away...
Tbh I think that is exactly the purpose of the unattributed quote and the point is that the board have lost every penny and to expect a return on a business that is going to go bust very soon is frankly not on.
you summed it up in 2 lines to my 10.....
I cannot for a second see the current board just walking away.... and I cant think why someone coming in would spend 20 million or even 1 million to take on 40 million of debt and a club that is losing money on a daily basis.....
[cite]Prague Addick[/cite]This is awful. But the one thing that gives me hope is that Peter Varney is in the mix. I would be much more worried if we knew there was this bid, but it was nothing to do with him.
Due diligence is done for a damn good reason, it generally costs a lot of money, and therefore you act on the results. Otherwise you end up like Mike Ashley. Football is a dodgy business with dodgy money streams in and out. For that reason I don't believe our directors have been particularly negligent or worse. Its perfectly possible that some of them had very little idea themselves of the financial situation.
That said, I do find that my suspicions about the Zabeel withdrawal strengthened. I always found it hard to swallow the idea that Zabeel had suddenly noticed a global financial crisis and had gone back to Dubai to secure the future of their camels. I'd give such people credit for knowing what was coming a bit quicker than the bloody Bank of England did. I think they didn't like what they saw in the due diligence. And maybe having been confronted with the situation themselves, the directors concluded that no more debt could be incurred, and hence they stuck with Parky.
So now the buyers know the reality and they want the price lowered. Of course they do. And of course, if they get the lower price, as the Airman says, there is more money potentially available for the squad.
But I still spare a thought for the current Board members. Its easy for us to say, take a bath of millions for the good of the club. I remain absolutely convinced that Richard Murray, Martin Simons and Mike Stevens have always had the good of the club in their hearts. And let us not forget that Richard Murray employed and showed great commitment to Peter Varney. Imagine the tension in that relationship now. Finally I think we should also note that the Board is not a homogenous beast. Different directors may well have different attitudes to the offer. I wonder if Mick is looking at that particular issue...
Always think you make a very reasoned argument and I think this piece is again well thought-out. I also think you don't try to 'revise' what Murray has done in order to maintain an almost whiter than white view of him.
Clearly I have a more critical regard of the man now. I think his decisions have cost the club dear in terms of where it finds itself in the league (our second relegation was a disgrace and could and should have been averted but wasn't largely on monetary grounds) and we can add into this various well spun stories emanating from the club which amounted to little more than hot air - strategic reviews spring to mind. I've not even mentioned the can of worms Mick Collins uncovered last season or what Deloitte and Touche calculated from our finances.
I think his comments in the SLP last week about him possibly losing his investment were very poor in my opinion. We have seen Charlton fans lose their jobs at The Valley and we have seen countless thousands of people, in times of economic hardship, renew season tickets which just two or three years ago entitled them to see Man Utd and Chelsea, not Gillingham and Leyton Orient. Bearing all this in mind, we have fallen to where we are mostly due to mistakes made by the Board. I think he should have stayed quiet.
Add to that the resentment the words have engendered in Varney's consortium then, sadly, you have to say that if Murray does relinquish his 'friendly' debt then he will have done so without a great deal of grace.
I recognise what he has done previously and, boy, do I hope for a time when we can all look back on his days with Curbs and Reg in a happier light but right now I think, as Nigel W has often remarked, Murray is a spent force in more ways than one and we desperately need a new dawn.
perhaps murrays comments the other week were aimed at his fellow board members to accept the situation and follow his lead in writing off their investment, that's the way I read it anyway
[cite]Posted By: razil[/cite]perhaps murrays comments the other week were aimed at his fellow board members to accept the situation and follow his lead in writing off their investment, that's the way I read it anyway
hope so..... and hope they act accordingly.... what a nightmare eh....
I just get the feeling that past fallings out and the departure of PV have left a lot of simmering resentments. "I told you so at the time" seems writ large and the consortium see themselves as the rescuers and they want gratitude and humility from the fallen along with their pound of flesh. Big personalities and history are playing a very large part IMO.
Comments
BUT
if we sold
Jonjo
Bailey
Racon
how much do you think it would raise 4/5 mil maybe then what happens are we still in that precurious position and if yes then the new owners/investors would be willing to hang us out to dry and therefore automatically makes them as bad if not worse than the current board surely.
I cant help but feel no one will come out of this looking to good piss poor PR from all parties and the little snipetsinto the SLP/MOS are piss poor too
Spot on, I've been thinking the same thing all along...
that sums it up perfectly for me Bing.
Some are saying this means it can't be a Zabeel type buyer, however Zabeel were interested in us when we were cheap, so clearly money and ROI was an issue back then too. So I suspect this isn't a money no object thing if it ever was.
The source is unattributed, but genuine.
I am a journalist at work, and a Charlton fan out of it. Sometimes a story makes it hard to be both. If I'm being honest, this wasn't one of those stories.
I just hope there is a season ahead, dismal or otherwise.
Such as with all press I will choose not to believe this time - too painful a thought!
Shouldnt the journalist also look into the reason he was being handed the complete story in the first place. you know some investigation, some depth, as opposed to being the mouthpiece of one interested party in a story involving at least two and depending on the existance of any split in our board, three or more groups with their own viewpoints. Even if one of those groups leaks its news to a local rag is this really the way to respond?
The board need to step aside and just get out the way and accept that they have lost ALL their money... easier said than done and hard one to swallow and a hard one to sell on the new people coming in's side....
tough one.... if the current board hold on too tight then we are in the stick...
I think we are in the stick whatever actually.... unless the baord just walk away...
It is increasingly evident that the communication from the Club to fans has been at best incompetent at worst wilfully deceitful to suck in as much season ticket money as possible.
I am a season ticket holder for 2009/10 and have paid my money before the Board apologists jump on me and thus feel entitled to express this opinion.
I always try to speak as I find and I'm afraid this is where my views now lie.
Coincidence or cause who knows, but it went markedly down hill once Chappell came on board in my opinion and, again coincidence or cause who knows, Varney left shortly afterwards.
Tbh I think that is exactly the purpose of the unattributed quote and the point is that the board have lost every penny and to expect a return on a business that is going to go bust very soon is frankly not on.
Due diligence is done for a damn good reason, it generally costs a lot of money, and therefore you act on the results. Otherwise you end up like Mike Ashley. Football is a dodgy business with dodgy money streams in and out. For that reason I don't believe our directors have been particularly negligent or worse. Its perfectly possible that some of them had very little idea themselves of the financial situation.
That said, I do find that my suspicions about the Zabeel withdrawal strengthened. I always found it hard to swallow the idea that Zabeel had suddenly noticed a global financial crisis and had gone back to Dubai to secure the future of their camels. I'd give such people credit for knowing what was coming a bit quicker than the bloody Bank of England did. I think they didn't like what they saw in the due diligence. And maybe having been confronted with the situation themselves, the directors concluded that no more debt could be incurred, and hence they stuck with Parky.
So now the buyers know the reality and they want the price lowered. Of course they do. And of course, if they get the lower price, as the Airman says, there is more money potentially available for the squad.
But I still spare a thought for the current Board members. Its easy for us to say, take a bath of millions for the good of the club. I remain absolutely convinced that Richard Murray, Martin Simons and Mike Stevens have always had the good of the club in their hearts. And let us not forget that Richard Murray employed and showed great commitment to Peter Varney. Imagine the tension in that relationship now. Finally I think we should also note that the Board is not a homogenous beast. Different directors may well have different attitudes to the offer. I wonder if Mick is looking at that particular issue...
Are you suggesting that all this mess lies at Chappells door?
I'll have you know that Derek helped make the NHS the fine establishment it is today. ;-)
Totally agree. Whatever the truth the current board would have been better off dropping the price to Zabeel to a point at which they would deal, however much sunk-cost they "lost" in doing that will look like nothing compared with the loss they'll have to take whenever they do eventually sell. I don't think that administration will happen because the main problem miring the club is "friendly debt". The article finally confirms something that was said a long time ago: specifically that 10 points would be a reasonable price to pay for wiping out debt, but unfortunately with friendly debt it's unlikely to be acceptable.
Poor business.
1. What is in it for the buyer if we are administration? Do they get CAFC cheaper and what penalties apart from 10 points would the club incur?
2. What is in it for the current owners to keep us out of administration? If a buyer did not come staright away, would we need to sell assets like players, training ground, The Valley? Are their investments somehow protected.
3. If we go into admin and then the new chaps snap us up straight away, do we only suffer a 10 point reduction.
you summed it up in 2 lines to my 10.....
I cannot for a second see the current board just walking away.... and I cant think why someone coming in would spend 20 million or even 1 million to take on 40 million of debt and a club that is losing money on a daily basis.....
hence the stale mate......
Always think you make a very reasoned argument and I think this piece is again well thought-out. I also think you don't try to 'revise' what Murray has done in order to maintain an almost whiter than white view of him.
Clearly I have a more critical regard of the man now. I think his decisions have cost the club dear in terms of where it finds itself in the league (our second relegation was a disgrace and could and should have been averted but wasn't largely on monetary grounds) and we can add into this various well spun stories emanating from the club which amounted to little more than hot air - strategic reviews spring to mind. I've not even mentioned the can of worms Mick Collins uncovered last season or what Deloitte and Touche calculated from our finances.
I think his comments in the SLP last week about him possibly losing his investment were very poor in my opinion. We have seen Charlton fans lose their jobs at The Valley and we have seen countless thousands of people, in times of economic hardship, renew season tickets which just two or three years ago entitled them to see Man Utd and Chelsea, not Gillingham and Leyton Orient. Bearing all this in mind, we have fallen to where we are mostly due to mistakes made by the Board. I think he should have stayed quiet.
Add to that the resentment the words have engendered in Varney's consortium then, sadly, you have to say that if Murray does relinquish his 'friendly' debt then he will have done so without a great deal of grace.
I recognise what he has done previously and, boy, do I hope for a time when we can all look back on his days with Curbs and Reg in a happier light but right now I think, as Nigel W has often remarked, Murray is a spent force in more ways than one and we desperately need a new dawn.
By us fans either calling or emailing on mass demanding some sort of answer.
Just talking about it on a forum won’t get the answers we deserve
hope so..... and hope they act accordingly.... what a nightmare eh....