[cite]Posted By: queensland_addick[/cite]A ten point deduction would make it even more difficult to hang on to, or attract decent players, thus making promotion as good as impossible.Another relegation could follow. I wonder if the potential new owners have factored this into their calculations.
Exactly.
I wonder if Plymouth's new owners thought about waiting for administration to happen
before buying? Looks like they didn't........
I fear the 'A' word is probably already set in stone and it's just a matter of time before it's announced to a 'surprised' set of Charlton supporters. Back in April, Murray and his pals paid a million quid (a figure well below the market value) for the club's training facilities out of their own private 'pension pot' funds, he specifically said this was not 'asset stripping' but a long term security move that could only be beneficial to the club, sorry Murray but I think you're talking crap. I think it was a long term plan to sneak off with a 'nice little earner' for when, not if, we go tits up. If we're gonna go into administration let's do it and get it over with, other clubs that have done so have managed to survive, why wouldn't we...?
What gets me is the fact that we are getting ALL of our information from newspapers, and not our club. I understand that we need to keep details secret, but at least something needs to be said to us.
[cite]Posted By: cafckev[/cite]What gets me is the fact that we are getting ALL of our information from newspapers, and not our club. I understand that we need to keep details secret, but at least something needs to be said to us.
First we have a Takeover thread running for ages, then just when the subject appears to be reaching a conclusion, we get an Administration thread starting up! FFS!!!
If, on the OS tomorrow I read the headline 'Charlton takeover completed', I would love it, love it!!!
If we do go in to administration wouldn't players like Shelvey Bailey etc be there for the taking at knockdown prices?
I spoke to a business guy yesterday evening who is well conected at Leyton Orient. It was just a throw away line during the conversation that I just shrugged and didn't pick up on for more insight but, he said 'if we hadn't done the deals which were pertaing to the training ground etc we would have gone in to administration'.
Before you start jumping down my neck I only met the bloke yesterday and have no idea how valid his comment was, I have only mentioned it due to the content of this thread.
Whether the board have been fending off the enevitable since then in the hope of another takeover deal is any ones guess.
As I understand it, the problem is the nature of the debt, set against the asking price. A certain figure was asked for the club, but following investigations the debt was found to be larger and more complex than first thought. Despite this, there was no reduction in the asking price and the deal stalled. Further to this, it is thought that the club is unsustainable and the debt will only increase. Given that most of the debt is owed to the directors, administration means them losing their money, but they've already done that, hence the debt.
I think Richard Murray's comments about walking away and losing his investment have caused a great deal of irritation. He has already lost his investment - walking away wouldn't be a gesture, but a consequence. It's a bit like spending all afternoon in the bookies, losing your money and announcing at 5PM that you're leaving, out of a point of principal - you're not, you're leaving because you gambled and lost. That is what the board have done. It is a business, and they have gambled and lost. Whoever buys the club has to clean up the financial mess, and the impression I get is that they don't see why they should compensate the people responsible for it.
The club is in a more precarious position than I had previously believed it to be, and their efforts to communicate with the fans have been appalling. I don't blame the people who run the communications department for that, either -if they aren't given information, they cannot put it out into the public arena. The whole thing is utterly shambolic, and very sad.
Thanks for that Mick. We all know about the £14/15m owed to directors, and £6m of other debt we have (mortgage wasn't it?) - what is the rest of the debt made up of? Is this more friendly debt or not?
The board said while ago we had around £21m worth of debt, where has this £15-20m of extra debt came from and if you have any idea, what sort of debt is it?
This is just depressing. Everything seems to go wrong and then get even worse.
[cite]Posted By: No 1 in south london[/cite]Sounds like a gun is being held to the current boards head and the longer they leave it, then more bullets are being loaded into the barrel (
I wish they'd hurry up and pull the F****** trigger.
Precarious indeed. Certainly there have been many clubs that have gone into administration and ultimately resurfaced stronger for it. Leicester and now it would appear Southampton. There is of course sooner or later going to be a club that does not come out of administration at all and in the current world ecconomic crisis I feel that will be sooner rather than later. I just hope that Charlton are not that club.
So 12 hours or so after this story broke, what do we know?
a) That it appears to be true.
b) We are led to believe its source was none other than PV himself.
c) The club's debts are far higher than we had been told and growing catastrophically by the day.
d) Administration is an option that is seriously being considered, certainly by PV and his consortium, if not yet by the current board.
Among the many, many things we do not know :
a) The identity of PV's associates
b) Who the club chairman will be this time next week
c) Who the manager will be this time next week
d) What it means for the playing staff
And how many days is it to the first game of the season?
Then there are the other side issues, such as the implications following the sale a few months ago of the training ground and other assets to existing directors, which was passed off at the time as little more than an admin matter.
It's probably about as big a mess as it could be and as serious as 1985...may be worse because at least in '85 we had Lennie Lawrence and a promotion-winning squad.
Off on holiday tonight so will be following the events of the next few days with trepidation from the south of France...
[cite]Posted By: All_Thaid_Up[/cite]I would still like to know how much money there proposed investors have though.
From the sounds of it, it really doesn't sound like it'll be a lot. Could we end up being taken over by a new board that can't really invest anything more than the current board could?
Though it doesn't look like we'll be taken over full stop at the moment.
[cite]Posted By: MickCollins[/cite]It's a bit like spending all afternoon in the bookies, losing your money and announcing at 5PM that you're leaving, out of a point of principal - you're not, you're leaving because you gambled and lost. That is what the board have done. It is a business, and they have gambled and lost. Whoever buys the club has to clean up the financial mess, and the impression I get is that they don't see why they should compensate the people responsible for it.
Very good analogy. I think Charlton has become an addiction for Murray and it's precisely because of his inability to come to terms with his own failings now means that his gambling has, like most gamblers with homes and families, severe financial repercussions for the whole club. The sooner he goes to a meeting of Football Directors Anonymous the better....
[quote][cite]Posted By: MickCollins[/cite]As I understand it, the problem is the nature of the debt, set against the asking price. A certain figure was asked for the club, but following investigations the debt was found to be larger and more complex than first thought. Despite this, there was no reduction in the asking price and the deal stalled. Further to this, it is thought that the club is unsustainable and the debt will only increase. Given that most of the debt is owed to the directors, administration means them losing their money, but they've already done that, hence the debt.
I think Richard Murray's comments about walking away and losing his investment have caused a great deal of irritation. He has already lost his investment - walking away wouldn't be a gesture, but a consequence. It's a bit like spending all afternoon in the bookies, losing your money and announcing at 5PM that you're leaving, out of a point of principal - you're not, you're leaving because you gambled and lost. That is what the board have done. It is a business, and they have gambled and lost. Whoever buys the club has to clean up the financial mess, and the impression I get is that they don't see why they should compensate the people responsible for it.
The club is in a more precarious position than I had previously believed it to be, and their efforts to communicate with the fans have been appalling. I don't blame the people who run the communications department for that, either -if they aren't given information, they cannot put it out into the public arena. The whole thing is utterly shambolic, and very sad.[/quote]
This is a superb post, and sums it up entirely.
We need to stop thinking of the Board as heroes - but realise they took decisions that led to 2 relegations in 3 years. You can say "Dowie, Pardew, Reed, Parky, Diawara, Hudson, whoever and whatever, etc etc etc" but all these factors were a derivative of Board decisions.
They paid a big price for a fancy seat and a chance to chat to Sir Alex, Arsene, and Jose - it's over now, and you need to pay for that fancy seat again or vacate it !
Let's face it - none of the existing board are going to part with any more money, so we need new investors.
We are starved of information by the club so that they can "spin" the eventual outcome to their advantage.
I know for sure that folk are trying hard to give us a new start, but one person is digging their heels in and preventing progress. Who knows what skeletons are in the finances? We no longer have a grass-roots fan present at board meetings and may have to fight to get the Valley back for a second time !
The security (or lack thereof) of The Valley is a major concern of mine (see higher up the thread).
As Nigel w points out it could be construed that the training ground and houses have already been "stripped" at a discounted price.
Administrators have a duty of care to get the best deal possible for creditors. If it is not protected in another company or trust then selling The Valley is the obvious way to do this from a purely objective viewpoint.
The debt that has recently been discovered must have been extreemly well hidden and if it was it must surely have been decieptfully hidden which must be illegal and imorale (according to MOS story)
Or the investors are turning the screw saying that the most financial benefit to them is to let the situation unfold in its timely conclusion and pick the club up even cheapper.
It is my opinion that come monday or tuesday the club will still be here and that is all that matters if we go into administraition then so be it but i dont think that will happen
Sadly i think that the decision to cancel the Q & A will come back and bite them on the arse hugely, The decision to play hardball with investors will come back and bite them on the arse
and we will suffer
playing straight in to the hands of critics, poor decisions poor advice who knows and to be honest i dont really care anymore
OK, so Mick writes that whoever effectively 'saves' the club don't see why they should give anything to the previous people. However if the previous people insist on getting an unrealistic something, the saviours attitude will be 'sod yer then, you don't want to do this the nice way, tickets for ever, Life Presidency, something named after you, then we will sit back and watch the whole kit and caboodle crumble to pieces'. Unless those holding the ownership see the cavalry arriving, they have to either sell up or close up (I assume the ongoing losses are unsustainable, even with player sales, more redundancies, and asset stripping). There may also be so much bad blood in the air that the losers may also booby trap the future for the winners. In the last couple of hours I have wondered if it is possible to somehow secure the clubs heritage and set up the new Charlton Athletic Phoenix at a very very low league position and start all over again. I reckon I might be interested in that....where might we start? Sharing Greenwich Borough? Welling? Ebbsfleet? Fisher? Dulwich Hamlet? AFC Wimbledon, and FC United of Manchester might be the examples to follow now.
NLA,
I feel exactly the same way.
I've been watching the Ashes,listening to Surrey v Kent on BBCLondon,with half an eye on this thread.
I've never bought into all this "Murray is God" bullshit: He made his money through being a hardnosed business-man, and,as someone said earlier, he "gambled & lost" with us and Our club.
I thought he,more than anyone on the board,would have more Honest with all of us Fans, but it seems not.
Cancelling the FF meeting I thought was a bit "iffy", but gave him the benefit of doubt.
Also, AFKA, have you recieved ANY reply from "Honest" Derek Chappell about your very well worded letter ?
No, thought not.
[cite]Posted By: MickCollins[/cite]As I understand it, the problem is the nature of the debt, set against the asking price. A certain figure was asked for the club, but following investigations the debt was found to be larger and more complex than first thought. Despite this, there was no reduction in the asking price and the deal stalled. Further to this, it is thought that the club is unsustainable and the debt will only increase. Given that most of the debt is owed to the directors, administration means them losing their money, but they've already done that, hence the debt.
I think Richard Murray's comments about walking away and losing his investment have caused a great deal of irritation. He has already lost his investment - walking away wouldn't be a gesture, but a consequence. It's a bit like spending all afternoon in the bookies, losing your money and announcing at 5PM that you're leaving, out of a point of principal - you're not, you're leaving because you gambled and lost. That is what the board have done. It is a business, and they have gambled and lost. Whoever buys the club has to clean up the financial mess, and the impression I get is that they don't see why they should compensate the people responsible for it.
The club is in a more precarious position than I had previously believed it to be, and their efforts to communicate with the fans have been appalling. I don't blame the people who run the communications department for that, either -if they aren't given information, they cannot put it out into the public arena. The whole thing is utterly shambolic, and very sad.
Bloody hell. I can honestly say I never expected to read something like about Charlton. I'd of thought Administration is now a logical step 10 points or 40million in debt, it's a no brainer.
Pretty darn shocked to be honest, as I'm sure you all are.
One of the horrible side effects of this is that we might have to admit that the dire warnings issued by Nick Gray - dismissed on here as apocalyptic nonsense and the egocentric ravings of a lunatic - might have been right after all...
[cite]Posted By: Miserableold-ish git[/cite]NLA,
I feel exactly the same way.
I've been watching the Ashes,listening to Surrey v Kent on BBCLondon,with half an eye on this thread.
I've never bought into all this "Murray is God" bullshit: He made his money through being a hardnosed business-man, and,as someone said earlier, he "gambled & lost" with us and Our club.
I thought he,more than anyone on the board,would have more Honest with all of us Fans, but it seems not.
Cancelling the FF meeting I thought was a bit "iffy", but gave him the benefit of doubt.
Also, AFKA, have you recieved ANY reply from "Honest" Derek Chappell about your very well worded letter ?
No, thought not.
it is doing my swede in MOG i am at the point where i couldnt give two shits about the club the people certain fans and most of all the forth coming Takeover or not the forthcoming season or not
Comments
Exactly.
I wonder if Plymouth's new owners thought about waiting for administration to happen
before buying? Looks like they didn't........
100% Kev.
Lets get THAT meeting back on ASAP FF.
If, on the OS tomorrow I read the headline 'Charlton takeover completed', I would love it, love it!!!
I spoke to a business guy yesterday evening who is well conected at Leyton Orient. It was just a throw away line during the conversation that I just shrugged and didn't pick up on for more insight but, he said 'if we hadn't done the deals which were pertaing to the training ground etc we would have gone in to administration'.
Before you start jumping down my neck I only met the bloke yesterday and have no idea how valid his comment was, I have only mentioned it due to the content of this thread.
Whether the board have been fending off the enevitable since then in the hope of another takeover deal is any ones guess.
I think Richard Murray's comments about walking away and losing his investment have caused a great deal of irritation. He has already lost his investment - walking away wouldn't be a gesture, but a consequence. It's a bit like spending all afternoon in the bookies, losing your money and announcing at 5PM that you're leaving, out of a point of principal - you're not, you're leaving because you gambled and lost. That is what the board have done. It is a business, and they have gambled and lost. Whoever buys the club has to clean up the financial mess, and the impression I get is that they don't see why they should compensate the people responsible for it.
The club is in a more precarious position than I had previously believed it to be, and their efforts to communicate with the fans have been appalling. I don't blame the people who run the communications department for that, either -if they aren't given information, they cannot put it out into the public arena. The whole thing is utterly shambolic, and very sad.
The board said while ago we had around £21m worth of debt, where has this £15-20m of extra debt came from and if you have any idea, what sort of debt is it?
This is just depressing. Everything seems to go wrong and then get even worse.
I wish they'd hurry up and pull the F****** trigger.
I feel like a racehorse with 4 broken legs!!!!
The board rolled the dice and it didnt work.
I would still like to know how much money there proposed investors have though.
there's more info there that we've had in a long while
a) That it appears to be true.
b) We are led to believe its source was none other than PV himself.
c) The club's debts are far higher than we had been told and growing catastrophically by the day.
d) Administration is an option that is seriously being considered, certainly by PV and his consortium, if not yet by the current board.
Among the many, many things we do not know :
a) The identity of PV's associates
b) Who the club chairman will be this time next week
c) Who the manager will be this time next week
d) What it means for the playing staff
And how many days is it to the first game of the season?
Then there are the other side issues, such as the implications following the sale a few months ago of the training ground and other assets to existing directors, which was passed off at the time as little more than an admin matter.
It's probably about as big a mess as it could be and as serious as 1985...may be worse because at least in '85 we had Lennie Lawrence and a promotion-winning squad.
Off on holiday tonight so will be following the events of the next few days with trepidation from the south of France...
From the sounds of it, it really doesn't sound like it'll be a lot. Could we end up being taken over by a new board that can't really invest anything more than the current board could?
Though it doesn't look like we'll be taken over full stop at the moment.
I think Richard Murray's comments about walking away and losing his investment have caused a great deal of irritation. He has already lost his investment - walking away wouldn't be a gesture, but a consequence. It's a bit like spending all afternoon in the bookies, losing your money and announcing at 5PM that you're leaving, out of a point of principal - you're not, you're leaving because you gambled and lost. That is what the board have done. It is a business, and they have gambled and lost. Whoever buys the club has to clean up the financial mess, and the impression I get is that they don't see why they should compensate the people responsible for it.
The club is in a more precarious position than I had previously believed it to be, and their efforts to communicate with the fans have been appalling. I don't blame the people who run the communications department for that, either -if they aren't given information, they cannot put it out into the public arena. The whole thing is utterly shambolic, and very sad.[/quote]
This is a superb post, and sums it up entirely.
We need to stop thinking of the Board as heroes - but realise they took decisions that led to 2 relegations in 3 years.
You can say "Dowie, Pardew, Reed, Parky, Diawara, Hudson, whoever and whatever, etc etc etc" but all these factors were a derivative of Board decisions.
They paid a big price for a fancy seat and a chance to chat to Sir Alex, Arsene, and Jose - it's over now, and you need to pay for that fancy seat again or vacate it !
Let's face it - none of the existing board are going to part with any more money, so we need new investors.
We are starved of information by the club so that they can "spin" the eventual outcome to their advantage.
I know for sure that folk are trying hard to give us a new start, but one person is digging their heels in and preventing progress. Who knows what skeletons are in the finances? We no longer have a grass-roots fan present at board meetings and may have to fight to get the Valley back for a second time !
As Nigel w points out it could be construed that the training ground and houses have already been "stripped" at a discounted price.
Administrators have a duty of care to get the best deal possible for creditors. If it is not protected in another company or trust then selling The Valley is the obvious way to do this from a purely objective viewpoint.
The debt that has recently been discovered must have been extreemly well hidden and if it was it must surely have been decieptfully hidden which must be illegal and imorale (according to MOS story)
Or the investors are turning the screw saying that the most financial benefit to them is to let the situation unfold in its timely conclusion and pick the club up even cheapper.
It is my opinion that come monday or tuesday the club will still be here and that is all that matters if we go into administraition then so be it but i dont think that will happen
Sadly i think that the decision to cancel the Q & A will come back and bite them on the arse hugely, The decision to play hardball with investors will come back and bite them on the arse
and we will suffer
playing straight in to the hands of critics, poor decisions poor advice who knows and to be honest i dont really care anymore
Unfortunately (barring a significant shift in position by either party), it doesn't sound like anything will be resolved soon.
Unless those holding the ownership see the cavalry arriving, they have to either sell up or close up (I assume the ongoing losses are unsustainable, even with player sales, more redundancies, and asset stripping).
There may also be so much bad blood in the air that the losers may also booby trap the future for the winners.
In the last couple of hours I have wondered if it is possible to somehow secure the clubs heritage and set up the new Charlton Athletic Phoenix at a very very low league position and start all over again. I reckon I might be interested in that....where might we start? Sharing Greenwich Borough? Welling? Ebbsfleet? Fisher? Dulwich Hamlet? AFC Wimbledon, and FC United of Manchester might be the examples to follow now.
I don't know how things are set up so it could be that we could go into admin, lose 10 points and still retain all the cr**!
I feel exactly the same way.
I've been watching the Ashes,listening to Surrey v Kent on BBCLondon,with half an eye on this thread.
I've never bought into all this "Murray is God" bullshit: He made his money through being a hardnosed business-man, and,as someone said earlier, he "gambled & lost" with us and Our club.
I thought he,more than anyone on the board,would have more Honest with all of us Fans, but it seems not.
Cancelling the FF meeting I thought was a bit "iffy", but gave him the benefit of doubt.
Also, AFKA, have you recieved ANY reply from "Honest" Derek Chappell about your very well worded letter ?
No, thought not.
Bloody hell. I can honestly say I never expected to read something like about Charlton. I'd of thought Administration is now a logical step 10 points or 40million in debt, it's a no brainer.
Pretty darn shocked to be honest, as I'm sure you all are.
it is doing my swede in MOG i am at the point where i couldnt give two shits about the club the people certain fans and most of all the forth coming Takeover or not the forthcoming season or not
right now feck everyone and everything