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England v Scotland - Match Thread
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I think in a roundabout way we are in agreement mate. Keep doing the same things you get the same outcome. Roy tried it and failed. The teams you mention that won competitions whilst not being the best team are a bit of a different case I think anyway. They can actually defend, England at the moment have what is generally accepted as a weakness in defense so why on earth would you put that defense under constant pressure by sitting back and allowing teams to come at you constantly ? on the other hand England on paper have a strong attacking set of players so why not try and make the opposition concerned about us scoring against them ? at the moment I wouldnt think anyone is greatly concerned about facing England and us scoring goals against them would you ?Covered End said:
I don't know, nor does anyone.AndyG said:Do you seriously think we could win the competition playing "reserved" ? mate if we sat back against Italy, France, Germany, Portugal they would literally rip us a new one
My point is we've won the WC once (when at home) and never won the Euros, so our usual approach hasn't worked. If you always do the same thing expect the same outcome.
Perhaps, a more cautious tactical approach may be more successful.
I'm willing for him to try something different.
I'm not saying he will succeed, he probably won't we never do.
I do know Greece, Portugal (and Chelsea in the Champions League) won the competitions when they weren't the best teams.
If it goes to form we'll struggle to beat France, Italy, Germany, Belgium, Portugal, if we play as the majority want, because we generally don't.1 -
I also don’t think Southgate has done much wrong if you’re content with mediocrity and under utilisation of potential. I genuinely think this group of players could be doing much better than what we’re seeing. No I don’t think we are good enough to run the real quality teams but player for player we should be scaring a few teams into looking over their shoulder. We’re nowhere near that. Southgate has no real coaching credentials and as far as I can see it shows every time England take the field.
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I doubt Greece and Chelsea scared teams.
The objective is to win games, not scare the other teams.
Like I say, I'm not expecting us to succeed, but I'm open minded enough to see if a different approach will work.0 -
Chelsea are a big club that didn’t just sit back and counter attack. They might’ve done vs City but that’s the equivalent of us playing France. I don’t think anyone would have an issue with that.Covered End said:I doubt Greece and Chelsea scared teams.
The objective is to win games, not scare the other teams.
Like I say, I'm not expecting us to succeed, but I'm open minded enough to see if a different approach will work.
Using Greece as an outlying comparison isn’t really the best either. There’s a reason Greece or other defensive sides don’t win it every year. It’s not a sustainable way of playing.
Yes, we should ensure we aren’t easily opened up when defending, but at the current time our approach neglects attacking far too much.
Whilst it may see us scrap a draw with Scotland, it won’t hold up against sides that are more clinical.4 -
Obtuse comment really. With the players at Southgate’s disposal his team should be one that other sides would prefer to avoid. At present I suggest they are not.Covered End said:I doubt Greece and Chelsea scared teams.
The objective is to win games, not scare the other teams.
Like I say, I'm not expecting us to succeed, but I'm open minded enough to see if a different approach will work.0 -
Covered End said:
He looks tired every time he comes back from injury having missing a large chunk of games.2121 said:Not posted for a while, but had to say… rashford on for kane?! Lost all hope now. 😂
Q: Did kane look tired for spurs this season cant remember?! Or does he only look tired for gareth?
Compared to how brilliant Harry Kane is when in tandem with Son and when he's on a run of being fit and scoring for fun, when ever we reach tournaments in the summer he never seems to look sharp. John boy would know but how long did Kane go without scoring in August ? Let alone being at his best after various ankle issues in the summer tournaments.
I won't have it that Kane isn't our best striker but you are only as good as your last few games in competition and his last two games in WC and the two games in Euro's have been sub standard compared to his amazing goal scorings and assists for club and Country.
GS needs to get him in the right place mentally and physically but at any level of management you are judged by results.
Lineker came good in a 3rd group game back in the day against Poland and then carried on scoring for the rest of the tournament.
So you play him and hope he's back on it with a good service or he is rested and comes back refreshed after scoring hundreds on the practice pitch against Ramsdale.
If Kane is starting(sounds like it) we give him 100% backing and hope his body and mind are on it and he emulates Gary Lineker. That can only happen with some killer passes which we are capable of.
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Are we really repeating the same mistake? I think that we have very often lost because we 'had a go.' Look back at the big defeats:AndyG said:
That is because nobody is talking about the results, it is the performances that are annoying. I dont believe anyone expected England to go and win the competition however people are pissed off with the way they are being sent out to play. If they had a go ( like the Welsh, Scottish plus most of the other teams ) and got knocked out then fair enough. But playing negative like they are is just plain predictable and boring and 100% leads to getting knocked out anyway. It has been the England way for years and I for one dont understand how people cant see that. It should be no suprise that if you keep doing the same things you end up with the same outcomeCovered End said:
I said exactly the same.brownbear said:Funny old game football, England 4 pts and already qualified for the next stage after two games - press and fans all over them with criticism, negativity and defeatism.
Scotland 1pt, no goals and have to now beat the last World Cup finalists, and they are all national heroes!
Strange times indeed.
Argentina 86: Our defence was too high up for the first goal, and just too disorganised for the second.
Germany 90 & 96: We were having a go all the way including extra time.
Croatia 18: We lost that because we didn't close Modric down enough not because we were unambitious.
I'm happy for us to be defensive and boring and win. I think this constant demand of excitement, pace, 'beat the man, take him on', 'you never give up' because that means that you're already losing, and God knows I'm just sick of losing. Give me Greece 2004 or Italy 2006 please please.2 -
Atleast the Argentina game and German games were exciting and as you say we went to extra time. The current set up wouldnt manage that I dont believe. Croatia wasnt working and the changes made were never going to rectify the situation.jimmymelrose said:
Are we really repeating the same mistake? I think that we have very often lost because we 'had a go.' Look back at the big defeats:AndyG said:
That is because nobody is talking about the results, it is the performances that are annoying. I dont believe anyone expected England to go and win the competition however people are pissed off with the way they are being sent out to play. If they had a go ( like the Welsh, Scottish plus most of the other teams ) and got knocked out then fair enough. But playing negative like they are is just plain predictable and boring and 100% leads to getting knocked out anyway. It has been the England way for years and I for one dont understand how people cant see that. It should be no suprise that if you keep doing the same things you end up with the same outcomeCovered End said:
I said exactly the same.brownbear said:Funny old game football, England 4 pts and already qualified for the next stage after two games - press and fans all over them with criticism, negativity and defeatism.
Scotland 1pt, no goals and have to now beat the last World Cup finalists, and they are all national heroes!
Strange times indeed.
Argentina 86: Our defence was too high up for the first goal, and just too disorganised for the second.
Germany 90 & 96: We were having a go all the way including extra time.
Croatia 18: We lost that because we didn't close Modric down enough not because we were unambitious.
I'm happy for us to be defensive and boring and win. I think this constant demand of excitement, pace, 'beat the man, take him on', 'you never give up' because that means that you're already losing, and God knows I'm just sick of losing. Give me Greece 2004 or Italy 2006 please please.
The Scotland game we take off probably our best player on the pitch and leave Sterling on who was doing nothing. The worse thing that could have happened in the Croatia game was for Sterling to score imo as that kind of justifys the decision to start him. We take Kane off and bring Rashford on playing down the middle when he is hardly on top form. Loyalty is a great thing but sometimes a manager can stretch it too far and it is detrimental to the players concerned. Southgate has "his" players and sticks to them regardless of form imo. Southgate announced yesterday that Kane would be starting on Tuesday, why would he do that ? I think to try and stop the questions being asked in the media. I love Harry Kane and he without doubt is a world class striker but in all honesty after his last couple of games do you really think he would keep his place in the starting line up for any top premiership team ?
All I can add is that the players being overlooked must be wondering how bad some players have to play for them to get a chance1 -
Just heard Barney Ronay pointing out that we generally overrate our players simply because we are familiar with them. In fact,he points out, not so many of them have been regularly starring in the UCL this year, whiich is not the case with other teams. And on those rare occasions when we have done well in tournaments, there have nearly always been some sticky early moments. World Cup 1990. Even Euro 96 got off to a pretty underwhelming start.2
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Totally agree with this without date we do build our players up in our own heads.PragueAddick said:Just heard Barney Ronay pointing out that we generally overrate our players simply because we are familiar with them. In fact,he points out, not so many of them have been regularly starring in the UCL this year, whiich is not the case with other teams. And on those rare occasions when we have done well in tournaments, there have nearly always been some sticky early moments. World Cup 1990. Even Euro 96 got off to a pretty underwhelming start.
I find it really interesting that when you look at teams in this competition that have players starting who normally play at very different levels for their clubs it is quite difficult to pick out which ones are playing "top level" and which ones are "lower Level"
One of my friends is a ex pro footballer and I asked him once how big is the gulf between a Premiership player and ones from Lower leagues. His answer was that premiership teams need top players in key positions but that most Championship or even league one players could do a job mixed with better players in a premiership team. So maybe apart from the very top players it is luck of the draw whether a players gets a premiership team spot or not0 - Sponsored links:
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yeah, Euro 96 keeps coming to mind, we were awful against Switzerland, and not that much better against Scotland, but that's forgotten as we won against the Scots by the skin of our teeth, and thrashed the Dutch, and if it wasn't at Wembley, we would have lost to SpainPragueAddick said:Just heard Barney Ronay pointing out that we generally overrate our players simply because we are familiar with them. In fact,he points out, not so many of them have been regularly starring in the UCL this year, whiich is not the case with other teams. And on those rare occasions when we have done well in tournaments, there have nearly always been some sticky early moments. World Cup 1990. Even Euro 96 got off to a pretty underwhelming start.1 -
The only time I can remember us breezing through the group stages was 1982.PragueAddick said:Just heard Barney Ronay pointing out that we generally overrate our players simply because we are familiar with them. In fact,he points out, not so many of them have been regularly starring in the UCL this year, whiich is not the case with other teams. And on those rare occasions when we have done well in tournaments, there have nearly always been some sticky early moments. World Cup 1990. Even Euro 96 got off to a pretty underwhelming start.0 -
We qualified out our group 3 years ago after two games, scoring 8 goals.LawrieAbrahams said:
The only time I can remember us breezing through the group stages was 1982.PragueAddick said:Just heard Barney Ronay pointing out that we generally overrate our players simply because we are familiar with them. In fact,he points out, not so many of them have been regularly starring in the UCL this year, whiich is not the case with other teams. And on those rare occasions when we have done well in tournaments, there have nearly always been some sticky early moments. World Cup 1990. Even Euro 96 got off to a pretty underwhelming start.0 -
Numbers hide the performances a bit, 6 v Costa Rica and 2 against Algeria, who we did huff and puff against.ValleyGary said:
We qualified out our group 3 years ago after two games, scoring 8 goals.LawrieAbrahams said:
The only time I can remember us breezing through the group stages was 1982.PragueAddick said:Just heard Barney Ronay pointing out that we generally overrate our players simply because we are familiar with them. In fact,he points out, not so many of them have been regularly starring in the UCL this year, whiich is not the case with other teams. And on those rare occasions when we have done well in tournaments, there have nearly always been some sticky early moments. World Cup 1990. Even Euro 96 got off to a pretty underwhelming start.0 -
Panama and Tunisia. I’d still call that breezing through personally.Rothko said:
Numbers hide the performances a bit, 6 v Costa Rica and 2 against Algeria, who we did huff and puff against.ValleyGary said:
We qualified out our group 3 years ago after two games, scoring 8 goals.LawrieAbrahams said:
The only time I can remember us breezing through the group stages was 1982.PragueAddick said:Just heard Barney Ronay pointing out that we generally overrate our players simply because we are familiar with them. In fact,he points out, not so many of them have been regularly starring in the UCL this year, whiich is not the case with other teams. And on those rare occasions when we have done well in tournaments, there have nearly always been some sticky early moments. World Cup 1990. Even Euro 96 got off to a pretty underwhelming start.2 -
Panama especially makes me chuckle, even more so after Friday night... There were a lot of people, myself included who were overjoyed when we beat them 6-0, often to be told "It was ONLY Panama".ValleyGary said:
Panama and Tunisia. I’d still call that breezing through personally.Rothko said:
Numbers hide the performances a bit, 6 v Costa Rica and 2 against Algeria, who we did huff and puff against.ValleyGary said:
We qualified out our group 3 years ago after two games, scoring 8 goals.LawrieAbrahams said:
The only time I can remember us breezing through the group stages was 1982.PragueAddick said:Just heard Barney Ronay pointing out that we generally overrate our players simply because we are familiar with them. In fact,he points out, not so many of them have been regularly starring in the UCL this year, whiich is not the case with other teams. And on those rare occasions when we have done well in tournaments, there have nearly always been some sticky early moments. World Cup 1990. Even Euro 96 got off to a pretty underwhelming start.
Yet the reason I was so pleased was because we finally came up against a poor team and bloody well put them to the sword, we struggled against so many teams before then, it was great seeing us putting a team to the sword for once.
Its why the Scotland game was a bit frustrating as we seemed to regress in that sense from three years ago, then again the Scots knew a point would see them treated as heroes so sat tighter and hit us on the break thanks to the space we left.
Unfortunately the reactions to both games from many "Its only Panama", "Why did we struggle against Scotland" is proof that England fans demand a perfection that doesnt exist.5 -
I'm losing my mind on the opposition!ValleyGary said:
Panama and Tunisia. I’d still call that breezing through personally.Rothko said:
Numbers hide the performances a bit, 6 v Costa Rica and 2 against Algeria, who we did huff and puff against.ValleyGary said:
We qualified out our group 3 years ago after two games, scoring 8 goals.LawrieAbrahams said:
The only time I can remember us breezing through the group stages was 1982.PragueAddick said:Just heard Barney Ronay pointing out that we generally overrate our players simply because we are familiar with them. In fact,he points out, not so many of them have been regularly starring in the UCL this year, whiich is not the case with other teams. And on those rare occasions when we have done well in tournaments, there have nearly always been some sticky early moments. World Cup 1990. Even Euro 96 got off to a pretty underwhelming start.0 -
The same people telling us to 'wait and see' would tell us after losing in the Round of 16 or Quarter finals that we had no chance anyway.
Southgate seems to be so overrated with some people on here just because he had the easiest draw in World Cup history in 2018. And still didn't manage to get to the final.2 -
Easiest draw in the World Cup but did alright against a Sweden team that held Spain a few days ago, that Swedish squad was three years younger as well...SELR_addicks said:The same people telling us to 'wait and see' would tell us after losing in the Round of 16 or Quarter finals that we had no chance anyway.
Southgate seems to be so overrated with some people on here just because he had the easiest draw in World Cup history in 2018. And still didn't manage to get to the final.
2010 was a pretty easy Group that we should have finished top off but lets just ignore how badly a foreign manager did with that lot.
Or do you think that Belgium, Tunisia, Panama was easier than the United States, Slovakia, Algeria... We made that year difficult for ourselves, just as we made 2018 as easy as we did.1 -
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So, Scotland players are with Gilmour 24/7 and can crack on as normal, but Mount and Chilwell embraced him after the game and they’ve gotta isolate. But they’ve also been around the England squad 24/7 since then, but the rest of the England team can crack on.Okay.4
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It does all seem a bit weird doesnt it.0
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Jocks come down here spreading their germs….2
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The other thing most of the team would have come in to contact with Gilmour on the pitch during the game as well.ValleyGary said:So, Scotland players are with Gilmour 24/7 and can crack on as normal, but Mount and Chilwell embraced him after the game and they’ve gotta isolate. But they’ve also been around the England squad 24/7 since then, but the rest of the England team can crack on.Okay.0 -
So Mount and Chilwell have to isolate because they were seen interacting on TV? Just assume the entirety of the Scotland squad haven't interacted with him. Can't see any issues at all with that.
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Could be that when asking for Billy’s autograph and cuddling their hero, one of them has actually passed it to him.0
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That would be ironic and poetic. Sheer lunacy that so many travelled down.cafcdave123 said:Could be that when asking for Billy’s autograph and cuddling their hero, one of them has actually passed it to him.0 -
Shows how bad my memory is.ValleyGary said:
We qualified out our group 3 years ago after two games, scoring 8 goals.LawrieAbrahams said:
The only time I can remember us breezing through the group stages was 1982.PragueAddick said:Just heard Barney Ronay pointing out that we generally overrate our players simply because we are familiar with them. In fact,he points out, not so many of them have been regularly starring in the UCL this year, whiich is not the case with other teams. And on those rare occasions when we have done well in tournaments, there have nearly always been some sticky early moments. World Cup 1990. Even Euro 96 got off to a pretty underwhelming start.0 -
He didn’t get the train down with them !MuttleyCAFC said:
That would be ironic and poetic. Sheer lunacy that so many travelled down.cafcdave123 said:Could be that when asking for Billy’s autograph and cuddling their hero, one of them has actually passed it to him.
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I see Mr Clarke isnt isolatingcafcdave123 said:Could be that when asking for Billy’s autograph and cuddling their hero, one of them has actually passed it to him.
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