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England v Scotland - Match Thread

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  • SELR_addicks
    SELR_addicks Posts: 15,446
    Sancho was close to not even making the squad. 

    It shows how completely out of touch Southgate is. 
  • soapboxsam
    soapboxsam Posts: 23,229
    Rothko said:
    Is Jadon Sancho the player who improves exponentially because he’s not playing, taking over from Grealish? 

    I understand your point But:
    When England won the World Cup Under 17 world cup with the outstanding Phil Foden the star of that tournament  in 2017 the only reason Jaden Sancho only played in the group games was because Borussia Dortmund called him back to play for the First team of the mighty Dortmund.
    4 years Jaden has been playing first team football at the highest level.
    I will judge Gareth Southgate at the conclusion of this tournament or the conclusion of England's part in the Euro's.

    But what he said about Jaden Sancho is bullshit. 
    Ok it's his call if he thinks he's not good enough but Young Bellingham came on as sub in the Croatia game at 17 and Sancho has been in good form over the latter part of last season. 

  • Rothko
    Rothko Posts: 18,801
    Btw, I like Sancho and think he’s a fabulous player, we just have a tendency to project onto a non playing player all our hopes
  • ValleyGary
    ValleyGary Posts: 37,973
    Rothko said:
    Btw, I like Sancho and think he’s a fabulous player, we just have a tendency to project onto a non playing player all our hopes
    It’s more to do with Southgate comments. They just don’t ring true.
  • AndyG
    AndyG Posts: 5,905
    Southgate was drafted in after the big Sam debacle when the team needed a steady hand able to deal with the press and lift the supporters after the last Euros. He did a good job at what was needed at the time, by sheer luck of the draw he got to a WC semi final by having to play teams that England should beat easily. He lost the semi because he wasnt savy enough to set a team up to compete against a decent team. Even at half time in that game he failed to make the changes needed. That semifinal got him the gig long term. Since then England have beaten nobody other than teams they should beat. All the decent international teams ( and some not so decent ) are playing high tempo, forward flowing football with intent. He is literally strangling the life out of the National team imo. So slow, predictable and unimaginative its beyond comprehension. We are witnessing in this tournament players from the Championship and below outperforming our so called stars. When you see players who would 100% normally go past opposition players every saturday check back and play sideways/backwards that imo can only be what they are being told to do. The players are being made to look muggy by the complete ineptitude.
    Lovely fella who did the job that was needed at the time but enough is enough please dont let him stay until the WC
  • colthe3rd
    colthe3rd Posts: 8,486
    ValleyGary said:
    Sounds like an excuse to shoehorn in his favourite Sterling. I thought we were passed all that nonsense.
    Sterling scored the winner against Croatia and overall was one of our best players that game. Is he supposed to be dropped after that performance?
  • Scoham
    Scoham Posts: 37,374
    colthe3rd said:
    ValleyGary said:
    Sounds like an excuse to shoehorn in his favourite Sterling. I thought we were passed all that nonsense.
    Sterling scored the winner against Croatia and overall was one of our best players that game. Is he supposed to be dropped after that performance?
    No, but he should have been subbed off against Scotland.
  • The_Organiser
    The_Organiser Posts: 3,999
    colthe3rd said:
    ValleyGary said:
    Sounds like an excuse to shoehorn in his favourite Sterling. I thought we were passed all that nonsense.
    Sterling scored the winner against Croatia and overall was one of our best players that game. Is he supposed to be dropped after that performance?
    I thought he was very poor against Croatia, the goal apart.
  • king addick
    king addick Posts: 3,698
    Sterling's form is similar to his form with City...one good game then one bad game but the difference is Pep has bollocks & will drop him to give another player a chance to make the position theres. 


  • Laddick01
    Laddick01 Posts: 6,362
    edited June 2021
    The_Organiser said:
    colthe3rd said:
    ValleyGary said:
    Sounds like an excuse to shoehorn in his favourite Sterling. I thought we were passed all that nonsense.
    Sterling scored the winner against Croatia and overall was one of our best players that game. Is he supposed to be dropped after that performance?
    I thought he was very poor against Croatia, the goal apart.
    Some of his runs look nice but he wastes so many good positions. Hasn’t got the touch to be able to link up with our tidier players either. Good for stretching a defence but slows our build up play down.

    I’d start him only against the top sides when we’re going to need to counter.
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  • brownbear
    brownbear Posts: 78
    edited June 2021
    Funny old game football, England 4 pts and already qualified for the next stage after two games - press and fans all over them with criticism, negativity and defeatism.

    Scotland 1pt, no goals and have to now beat the last World Cup finalists, and they are all national heroes!

    Strange times indeed.
  • PopIcon
    PopIcon Posts: 5,970
    SouthWest_Addicks said:
    PopIcon said:
    The England fans who booed were an embarrassment. Due to my heritage I have sat in both the home and away ends at Wembley in an England(mum) v Scotland(dad) match. It pains me to say, but the behaviour by English fans is on a different level of wankerish.

    I have zero bias as I am split down the middle on loyalty. 
    Can you clarify please. When you mean booed? Are you referring to the knee or at the final whistle. Thank you. 
    Final whistle.
  • Croydon
    Croydon Posts: 12,726
    colthe3rd said:
    ValleyGary said:
    Sounds like an excuse to shoehorn in his favourite Sterling. I thought we were passed all that nonsense.
    Sterling scored the winner against Croatia and overall was one of our best players that game. Is he supposed to be dropped after that performance?
    He wasn't one of our best players. Scored the goal sure, but was fairly average for the rest of the match.
  • Chris_from_Sidcup
    Chris_from_Sidcup Posts: 35,994
    SELR_addicks said:



    Man thinks player that has played in the Champions League for the past number of years has never been in a 'big tournament'. 

    Jesus christ. Sancho quality-wise is probably one of our top 3 players. And he's talking about him like he's 18 year old Walcott. 
    Absolute rubbish from Southgate.

    Are James, Rice, Mount, Bellingham and Foden not also young and playing in their first big international tournament? 
  • MuttleyCAFC
    MuttleyCAFC Posts: 47,728
    edited June 2021
    I have had a think about it and decided to look at this differently. It isn't really for me to tell the England manager how to set up and play even if he doesn't listen to me. It is his job to have a successful tournament. I measure success, not by winning it, but of course that would be a great success, but it is also how you fail. I mean with a bit of good play and bad luck.

    Southgate, whether we like it of not is the manager and we have to get behind him and the team. What I think should go with all of that is that if we have a bad tournament, he walks. Hodgson had three tournaments of failure.  Managing a national team is different to a club side and if Southgate succeeds or does well he should stay and if he doesn't he should go. A Semi Final in the World cup, even though things opened up for us a bit, was good enough for another go at it.

    What annoys me, i'd if say we scape through our group, and lose in the last 16, Southgate won't automatically walk. The job may pay well and carry a lot of prestige, but it is also a national service and managers should respect that. So my message to Southgate is no excuses, with the players we have, make our mark on this competition.    
  • Chris_from_Sidcup
    Chris_from_Sidcup Posts: 35,994
    king addick said:
    Sterling's form is similar to his form with City...one good game then one bad game but the difference is Pep has bollocks & will drop him to give another player a chance to make the position theres. 


    Also City probably create 10-15 chances a game, so if Sterling makes a mess of one it doesn't matter as another chance will probably be along 5 minutes later.

    We create about 2 a game.
  • MuttleyCAFC
    MuttleyCAFC Posts: 47,728
    Chris_from_Sidcup said:
    king addick said:
    Sterling's form is similar to his form with City...one good game then one bad game but the difference is Pep has bollocks & will drop him to give another player a chance to make the position theres. 


    Also City probably create 10-15 chances a game, so if Sterling makes a mess of one it doesn't matter as another chance will probably be along 5 minutes later.

    We create about 2 a game.
    Maybe the argument is we should create more with the players available.
  • colthe3rd
    colthe3rd Posts: 8,486
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    I have had a think about it and decided to look at this differently. It isn't really for me to tell the England manager how to set up and play even if he doesn't listen to me. It is his job to have a successful tournament. I measure success, not by winning it, but of course that would be a great success, but it is also how you fail. I mean with a bit of good play and bad luck.

    Southgate, whether we like it of not is the manager and we have to get behind him and the team. What I think should go with all of that is that if we have a bad tournament, he walks. Hodgson had three tournaments of failure.  Managing a national team is different to a club side and if Southgate succeeds or does well he should stay and if he doesn't he should go. A Semi Final in the World cup, even though things opened up for us a bit, was good enough for another go at it.

    What annoys me, i'd if say we scape through our group, and lose in the last 16, Southgate won't automatically walk. The job may pay well and carry a lot of prestige, but it is also a national service and managers should respect that. So my message to Southgate is no excuses, with the players we have, make our mark on this competition.    
    This is how I feel about things. People calling for him to be sacked before even seeing the outcome of the euros is bizarre, if we got to the final or even won it should he be sacked? International football more than any other is a results business, his win% is only second to Capello but with a world cup semi final to show for it. All the reports are the players are happy with how he runs the team, they seem a lot happier with him as he protects them.

    Yet for some reason there are some who cannot stand him. Yes I understand everyone has their preferred formation and players to select, when were arguing over whether Sancho starts over Sterling or Grealish over Foden, why get upset over it? It's hardly an completely inexcusable selection. Maybe it's a positive we have so many talented players in those positions, people are getting upset a player is selected that scored 10 goals and got 7 assists in the PL.

    We also aren't privy to what's going on behind the scenes, are some of them carrying knocks? What does the data science say? Is something personal going on? There's also the matter of dealing with the press, are you going to tell them the exact reasons for your selections and tactics?

    Everyone needs to just chill, 3 years ago we had very low expectations, even earlier this year there were serious concerns about missing players yet now every game we don't win is a national disaster. Judge him and the team once everything is done and FFS just try and enjoy a tournament.
  • soapboxsam
    soapboxsam Posts: 23,229
    edited June 2021
    This is Gareth Southgate's gig and picks who he likes 100%.

    But, Sancho is the most experienced of our young players, 21 and under and has played 101 matches for Borussia Dortmund in the bundesliga since he was 17 over 4 years and has scored 38 goals under the pressure of playing for the largest supported team in Germany even if they play second fiddle to the mighty Bayern Munich.
    The assists Jadon has is amazing plus he has played numerous big games in the Champions League.

    No guarantee he will make it for England but at 21 he is more than ready to be given the opportunity.

  • king addick
    king addick Posts: 3,698
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    Chris_from_Sidcup said:
    king addick said:
    Sterling's form is similar to his form with City...one good game then one bad game but the difference is Pep has bollocks & will drop him to give another player a chance to make the position theres. 


    Also City probably create 10-15 chances a game, so if Sterling makes a mess of one it doesn't matter as another chance will probably be along 5 minutes later.

    We create about 2 a game.
    Maybe the argument is we should create more with the players available.
    100% we should. Let them off the leash a little...Wales havent got the same overall talent in the squad as we have but they always have a go. 
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  • 2121
    2121 Posts: 1,186
    Not posted for a while, but had to say… rashford on for kane?! Lost all hope now. 😂

    Q: Did kane look tired for spurs this season cant remember?! Or does he only look tired for gareth?
  • Covered End
    Covered End Posts: 51,989
    brownbear said:
    Funny old game football, England 4 pts and already qualified for the next stage after two games - press and fans all over them with criticism, negativity and defeatism.

    Scotland 1pt, no goals and have to now beat the last World Cup finalists, and they are all national heroes!

    Strange times indeed.
    I said exactly the same.
  • AndyG
    AndyG Posts: 5,905
    Covered End said:
    brownbear said:
    Funny old game football, England 4 pts and already qualified for the next stage after two games - press and fans all over them with criticism, negativity and defeatism.

    Scotland 1pt, no goals and have to now beat the last World Cup finalists, and they are all national heroes!

    Strange times indeed.
    I said exactly the same.
    That is because nobody is talking about the results, it is the performances that are annoying. I dont believe anyone expected England to go and win the competition however people are pissed off with the way they are being sent out to play. If they had a go ( like the Welsh, Scottish plus most of the other teams ) and got knocked out then fair enough. But playing negative like they are is just plain predictable and boring and 100% leads to getting knocked out anyway. It has been the England way for years and I for one dont understand how people cant see that. It should be no suprise that if you keep doing the same things you end up with the same outcome
  • Covered End
    Covered End Posts: 51,989
    colthe3rd said:
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    I have had a think about it and decided to look at this differently. It isn't really for me to tell the England manager how to set up and play even if he doesn't listen to me. It is his job to have a successful tournament. I measure success, not by winning it, but of course that would be a great success, but it is also how you fail. I mean with a bit of good play and bad luck.

    Southgate, whether we like it of not is the manager and we have to get behind him and the team. What I think should go with all of that is that if we have a bad tournament, he walks. Hodgson had three tournaments of failure.  Managing a national team is different to a club side and if Southgate succeeds or does well he should stay and if he doesn't he should go. A Semi Final in the World cup, even though things opened up for us a bit, was good enough for another go at it.

    What annoys me, i'd if say we scape through our group, and lose in the last 16, Southgate won't automatically walk. The job may pay well and carry a lot of prestige, but it is also a national service and managers should respect that. So my message to Southgate is no excuses, with the players we have, make our mark on this competition.    
    This is how I feel about things. People calling for him to be sacked before even seeing the outcome of the euros is bizarre, if we got to the final or even won it should he be sacked? International football more than any other is a results business, his win% is only second to Capello but with a world cup semi final to show for it. All the reports are the players are happy with how he runs the team, they seem a lot happier with him as he protects them.

    Yet for some reason there are some who cannot stand him. Yes I understand everyone has their preferred formation and players to select, when were arguing over whether Sancho starts over Sterling or Grealish over Foden, why get upset over it? It's hardly an completely inexcusable selection. Maybe it's a positive we have so many talented players in those positions, people are getting upset a player is selected that scored 10 goals and got 7 assists in the PL.

    We also aren't privy to what's going on behind the scenes, are some of them carrying knocks? What does the data science say? Is something personal going on? There's also the matter of dealing with the press, are you going to tell them the exact reasons for your selections and tactics?

    Everyone needs to just chill, 3 years ago we had very low expectations, even earlier this year there were serious concerns about missing players yet now every game we don't win is a national disaster. Judge him and the team once everything is done and FFS just try and enjoy a tournament.
    This and yes we've got people on CL who would rather we got got knocked out playing expansive attacking football than winning the competition by playing more reserved.
    Even wanting Southgate sacked if we win the competition!
  • Covered End
    Covered End Posts: 51,989
    2121 said:
    Not posted for a while, but had to say… rashford on for kane?! Lost all hope now. 😂

    Q: Did kane look tired for spurs this season cant remember?! Or does he only look tired for gareth?
    He looks tired every time he comes back from injury having missing a large chunk of games. 
  • MuttleyCAFC
    MuttleyCAFC Posts: 47,728
    colthe3rd said:
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    I have had a think about it and decided to look at this differently. It isn't really for me to tell the England manager how to set up and play even if he doesn't listen to me. It is his job to have a successful tournament. I measure success, not by winning it, but of course that would be a great success, but it is also how you fail. I mean with a bit of good play and bad luck.

    Southgate, whether we like it of not is the manager and we have to get behind him and the team. What I think should go with all of that is that if we have a bad tournament, he walks. Hodgson had three tournaments of failure.  Managing a national team is different to a club side and if Southgate succeeds or does well he should stay and if he doesn't he should go. A Semi Final in the World cup, even though things opened up for us a bit, was good enough for another go at it.

    What annoys me, i'd if say we scape through our group, and lose in the last 16, Southgate won't automatically walk. The job may pay well and carry a lot of prestige, but it is also a national service and managers should respect that. So my message to Southgate is no excuses, with the players we have, make our mark on this competition.    
    This is how I feel about things. People calling for him to be sacked before even seeing the outcome of the euros is bizarre, if we got to the final or even won it should he be sacked? International football more than any other is a results business, his win% is only second to Capello but with a world cup semi final to show for it. All the reports are the players are happy with how he runs the team, they seem a lot happier with him as he protects them.

    Yet for some reason there are some who cannot stand him. Yes I understand everyone has their preferred formation and players to select, when were arguing over whether Sancho starts over Sterling or Grealish over Foden, why get upset over it? It's hardly an completely inexcusable selection. Maybe it's a positive we have so many talented players in those positions, people are getting upset a player is selected that scored 10 goals and got 7 assists in the PL.

    We also aren't privy to what's going on behind the scenes, are some of them carrying knocks? What does the data science say? Is something personal going on? There's also the matter of dealing with the press, are you going to tell them the exact reasons for your selections and tactics?

    Everyone needs to just chill, 3 years ago we had very low expectations, even earlier this year there were serious concerns about missing players yet now every game we don't win is a national disaster. Judge him and the team once everything is done and FFS just try and enjoy a tournament.
    But my point is also that if he fails, I doubt he would walk. He will probably find some excuse or the other. I would like him to say, trust me, it is on me and if I fail I will walk. 
  • AndyG
    AndyG Posts: 5,905
    Do you seriously think we could win the competition playing "reserved" ? mate if we sat back against Italy, France, Germany, Portugal they would literally rip us a new one
  • Covered End
    Covered End Posts: 51,989
    edited June 2021
    AndyG said:
    Do you seriously think we could win the competition playing "reserved" ? mate if we sat back against Italy, France, Germany, Portugal they would literally rip us a new one
    I don't know, nor does anyone.
    My point is we've won the WC once (when at home) and never won the Euros, so our usual approach hasn't worked. If you always do the same thing expect the same outcome.

    Perhaps, a more cautious tactical approach may be more successful.
    I'm willing for him to try something different.
    I'm not saying he will succeed, he probably won't we never do.

    I do know Greece, Portugal (and Chelsea in the Champions League) won the competitions when they weren't the best teams.

    If it goes to form we'll struggle to beat France, Italy, Germany, Belgium, Portugal, if we play as the majority want, because we generally don't.
  • MuttleyCAFC
    MuttleyCAFC Posts: 47,728
    edited June 2021
    We have better players now than we have in previous years. If Southgate chooses to not pick our flair players and be ultra cautious, let him as long as he proves us wrong, which we will be delighted about, or he walks. Which he won't!
  • colthe3rd
    colthe3rd Posts: 8,486
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    colthe3rd said:
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    I have had a think about it and decided to look at this differently. It isn't really for me to tell the England manager how to set up and play even if he doesn't listen to me. It is his job to have a successful tournament. I measure success, not by winning it, but of course that would be a great success, but it is also how you fail. I mean with a bit of good play and bad luck.

    Southgate, whether we like it of not is the manager and we have to get behind him and the team. What I think should go with all of that is that if we have a bad tournament, he walks. Hodgson had three tournaments of failure.  Managing a national team is different to a club side and if Southgate succeeds or does well he should stay and if he doesn't he should go. A Semi Final in the World cup, even though things opened up for us a bit, was good enough for another go at it.

    What annoys me, i'd if say we scape through our group, and lose in the last 16, Southgate won't automatically walk. The job may pay well and carry a lot of prestige, but it is also a national service and managers should respect that. So my message to Southgate is no excuses, with the players we have, make our mark on this competition.    
    This is how I feel about things. People calling for him to be sacked before even seeing the outcome of the euros is bizarre, if we got to the final or even won it should he be sacked? International football more than any other is a results business, his win% is only second to Capello but with a world cup semi final to show for it. All the reports are the players are happy with how he runs the team, they seem a lot happier with him as he protects them.

    Yet for some reason there are some who cannot stand him. Yes I understand everyone has their preferred formation and players to select, when were arguing over whether Sancho starts over Sterling or Grealish over Foden, why get upset over it? It's hardly an completely inexcusable selection. Maybe it's a positive we have so many talented players in those positions, people are getting upset a player is selected that scored 10 goals and got 7 assists in the PL.

    We also aren't privy to what's going on behind the scenes, are some of them carrying knocks? What does the data science say? Is something personal going on? There's also the matter of dealing with the press, are you going to tell them the exact reasons for your selections and tactics?

    Everyone needs to just chill, 3 years ago we had very low expectations, even earlier this year there were serious concerns about missing players yet now every game we don't win is a national disaster. Judge him and the team once everything is done and FFS just try and enjoy a tournament.
    But my point is also that if he fails, I doubt he would walk. He will probably find some excuse or the other. I would like him to say, trust me, it is on me and if I fail I will walk. 
    Again that's something that we won't know until we get to that point, agree it's unlikely but as he's been given a contract to be there until after the world cup should he? How many managers in the modern game just walk away if they're not out of contract?

    This does all feel like a very typical English tournament though, everything is the manager's fault with the players avoiding the blame, whilst I don't think he has been perfect those players are easily good enough to have beaten Scotland but too many didn't perform, personally I'm not at panic stations yet, we're unbeaten, we won arguably our toughest game on paper and we haven't conceded a goal (which was one of the main worries coming into this tournament was how the defence would cope).

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