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England Cricket Summer 2020
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The problem with judging keepers on their batting averages is that it doesn't take into account the cost of drops. Drop Kohli this winter, and the vast number of extra runs he'll make could be very costly.Addick Addict said:
Not saying any of what you say isn't true Canters. And I'm certainly not suggesting that he was wrong for doing so but he declined to be part of the Lions trip to Australia.cantersaddick said:
Foakes has said in an interview before that he did struggle after being dropped (incredibly harshly) and it affected him. He had a poor season with the bat (averaged under 30 in a terrible surrey side) but was class as ever with the gloves. He took some time away from the game at the end of that season and came back much better. Stewart saying he is back to his best.Addick Addict said:
Canters will confirm that I've been saying this for years. But, as I have also just said, I believe that it isn't just his loss of form with the bat.blackpool72 said:
Regardless of his form with the bathe is head and shoulders better with the gloves than Buttler ever will beAddick Addict said:
He dropped the easiest one of the lot today. I believe that there is a reason why Foakes isn't being picked and it has, actually, nothing to do with Buttler and Bairstow being regarded as better then him. More to do with the reaction of Foakes to being dropped and his loss of form with the bat.killerandflash said:
He's never been a great keeper, only in the team because he's a great white ball batsman, and England think he can do the same in red ball cricket...Alwaysneil said:Just been watching the highlights. What on earth is Buttler doing? Easy dropped catch and a terrible missed stumping.Can’t miss them mate.
Remember this is a player who in one season (2017 I think) averaged 126 in list A cricket. He is no slouch.
Whether anyone likes it or not, unfortunately, selectors at County and International level have their own ideas about what they want to see players do. Foakes was mentally knackered he says but, that being the case, how was he going to cope had he been picked for NZ and then Sri Lanka? Subsequently declining the Lions tour might be perceived in some quarters as sticking two fingers up at the England hierarchy - or at the very least that he wasn't in the best situation to resume England duties.
There is also a suggestion that he isn't great against the fastest short pitched bowling to which his response has been that "the pull is my strongest shot so to hear that from inside the camp surprised me". Again, turning down the opportunity to go and prove himself in that respect on fast, bouncy tracks in Australia cannot have done his cause too much good.
To force his way back into contention he has to now not only perform but also prove that he is prepared to do the hard yards and see adversity as a challenge - not turn his back on it. And whether anyone likes it or not it is difficult to pick a player who averaged 26.14 in the CC last season especially when we are asking him to bat at 6.
Cricket is a horrible game when you are not in a good place and very often the best thing to do is to get away from that environment. A loss of form only serves to create doubt in ones ability which is then further compounded by a perceived lack of confidence in your ability by decision makers. I have witnessed this at first hand and the only way to break the vicious circle is to get yourself out of that environment and start afresh. Followed hopefully by a run of form that makes it difficult for you not to be picked.
And Foakes currently averages 38 in first class cricket and 41.5 in Tests. Yes his recent form isn't so good, but both are comfortably better than Buttler's averages.2 -
I recognise all of that of course. But I repeat this isn't just about Foakes' batting and averages. It's about the fact that the selectors feel that he turned down the opportunity to go to Australia and prove that he can play fast short pitched bowling. Perhaps they were of the belief that Foakes was taking the line that it was better for them to think that he wasn't comfortable against it than to prove this was the case?killerandflash said:
The problem with judging keepers on their batting averages is that it doesn't take into account the cost of drops. Drop Kohli this winter, and the vast number of extra runs he'll make could be very costly.Addick Addict said:
Not saying any of what you say isn't true Canters. And I'm certainly not suggesting that he was wrong for doing so but he declined to be part of the Lions trip to Australia.cantersaddick said:
Foakes has said in an interview before that he did struggle after being dropped (incredibly harshly) and it affected him. He had a poor season with the bat (averaged under 30 in a terrible surrey side) but was class as ever with the gloves. He took some time away from the game at the end of that season and came back much better. Stewart saying he is back to his best.Addick Addict said:
Canters will confirm that I've been saying this for years. But, as I have also just said, I believe that it isn't just his loss of form with the bat.blackpool72 said:
Regardless of his form with the bathe is head and shoulders better with the gloves than Buttler ever will beAddick Addict said:
He dropped the easiest one of the lot today. I believe that there is a reason why Foakes isn't being picked and it has, actually, nothing to do with Buttler and Bairstow being regarded as better then him. More to do with the reaction of Foakes to being dropped and his loss of form with the bat.killerandflash said:
He's never been a great keeper, only in the team because he's a great white ball batsman, and England think he can do the same in red ball cricket...Alwaysneil said:Just been watching the highlights. What on earth is Buttler doing? Easy dropped catch and a terrible missed stumping.Can’t miss them mate.
Remember this is a player who in one season (2017 I think) averaged 126 in list A cricket. He is no slouch.
Whether anyone likes it or not, unfortunately, selectors at County and International level have their own ideas about what they want to see players do. Foakes was mentally knackered he says but, that being the case, how was he going to cope had he been picked for NZ and then Sri Lanka? Subsequently declining the Lions tour might be perceived in some quarters as sticking two fingers up at the England hierarchy - or at the very least that he wasn't in the best situation to resume England duties.
There is also a suggestion that he isn't great against the fastest short pitched bowling to which his response has been that "the pull is my strongest shot so to hear that from inside the camp surprised me". Again, turning down the opportunity to go and prove himself in that respect on fast, bouncy tracks in Australia cannot have done his cause too much good.
To force his way back into contention he has to now not only perform but also prove that he is prepared to do the hard yards and see adversity as a challenge - not turn his back on it. And whether anyone likes it or not it is difficult to pick a player who averaged 26.14 in the CC last season especially when we are asking him to bat at 6.
Cricket is a horrible game when you are not in a good place and very often the best thing to do is to get away from that environment. A loss of form only serves to create doubt in ones ability which is then further compounded by a perceived lack of confidence in your ability by decision makers. I have witnessed this at first hand and the only way to break the vicious circle is to get yourself out of that environment and start afresh. Followed hopefully by a run of form that makes it difficult for you not to be picked.
And Foakes currently averages 38 in first class cricket and 41.5 in Tests. Yes his recent form isn't so good, but both are comfortably better than Buttler's averages.
The reason he was picked for SL is because he's been out there four times and plays spin well - his average against them is 69.25 but when he faced the Windies he managed just 55 runs in 4 innings. A small sample but when you add that to his average last season of 26 the doubts are reinforced. Which is why I mentioned Bracey as being Buttler's potential successor - in the eyes of the selectors.
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Hi Addick Addict said:
If he has shot himself in the foot with the selectors by not going to Oz , why bother putting him in the Test squad for this series if you aren’t going to play him.
I recognise all of that of course. But I repeat this isn't just about Foakes' batting and averages. It's about the fact that the selectors feel that he turned down the opportunity to go to Australia and prove that he can play fast short pitched bowling. Perhaps they were of the belief that Foakes was taking the line that it was better for them to think that he wasn't comfortable against it than to prove this was the case?killerandflash said:
The problem with judging keepers on their batting averages is that it doesn't take into account the cost of drops. Drop Kohli this winter, and the vast number of extra runs he'll make could be very costly.Addick Addict said:
Not saying any of what you say isn't true Canters. And I'm certainly not suggesting that he was wrong for doing so but he declined to be part of the Lions trip to Australia.cantersaddick said:
Foakes has said in an interview before that he did struggle after being dropped (incredibly harshly) and it affected him. He had a poor season with the bat (averaged under 30 in a terrible surrey side) but was class as ever with the gloves. He took some time away from the game at the end of that season and came back much better. Stewart saying he is back to his best.Addick Addict said:
Canters will confirm that I've been saying this for years. But, as I have also just said, I believe that it isn't just his loss of form with the bat.blackpool72 said:
Regardless of his form with the bathe is head and shoulders better with the gloves than Buttler ever will beAddick Addict said:
He dropped the easiest one of the lot today. I believe that there is a reason why Foakes isn't being picked and it has, actually, nothing to do with Buttler and Bairstow being regarded as better then him. More to do with the reaction of Foakes to being dropped and his loss of form with the bat.killerandflash said:
He's never been a great keeper, only in the team because he's a great white ball batsman, and England think he can do the same in red ball cricket...Alwaysneil said:Just been watching the highlights. What on earth is Buttler doing? Easy dropped catch and a terrible missed stumping.Can’t miss them mate.
Remember this is a player who in one season (2017 I think) averaged 126 in list A cricket. He is no slouch.
Whether anyone likes it or not, unfortunately, selectors at County and International level have their own ideas about what they want to see players do. Foakes was mentally knackered he says but, that being the case, how was he going to cope had he been picked for NZ and then Sri Lanka? Subsequently declining the Lions tour might be perceived in some quarters as sticking two fingers up at the England hierarchy - or at the very least that he wasn't in the best situation to resume England duties.
There is also a suggestion that he isn't great against the fastest short pitched bowling to which his response has been that "the pull is my strongest shot so to hear that from inside the camp surprised me". Again, turning down the opportunity to go and prove himself in that respect on fast, bouncy tracks in Australia cannot have done his cause too much good.
To force his way back into contention he has to now not only perform but also prove that he is prepared to do the hard yards and see adversity as a challenge - not turn his back on it. And whether anyone likes it or not it is difficult to pick a player who averaged 26.14 in the CC last season especially when we are asking him to bat at 6.
Cricket is a horrible game when you are not in a good place and very often the best thing to do is to get away from that environment. A loss of form only serves to create doubt in ones ability which is then further compounded by a perceived lack of confidence in your ability by decision makers. I have witnessed this at first hand and the only way to break the vicious circle is to get yourself out of that environment and start afresh. Followed hopefully by a run of form that makes it difficult for you not to be picked.
And Foakes currently averages 38 in first class cricket and 41.5 in Tests. Yes his recent form isn't so good, but both are comfortably better than Buttler's averages.
The reason he was picked for SL is because he's been out there four times and plays spin well - his average against them is 69.25 but when he faced the Windies he managed just 55 runs in 4 innings. A small sample but when you add that to his average last season of 26 the doubts are reinforced. Which is why I mentioned Bracey as being Buttler's potential successor - in the eyes of the selectors.
Surely the better play for the selectors if Bracey is the heir apparent would to have him with the test squad at the moment ?2 -
billysboots said:Hi Addick Addict said:
If he has shot himself in the foot with the selectors by not going to Oz , why bother putting him in the Test squad for this series if you aren’t going to play him.
I recognise all of that of course. But I repeat this isn't just about Foakes' batting and averages. It's about the fact that the selectors feel that he turned down the opportunity to go to Australia and prove that he can play fast short pitched bowling. Perhaps they were of the belief that Foakes was taking the line that it was better for them to think that he wasn't comfortable against it than to prove this was the case?killerandflash said:
The problem with judging keepers on their batting averages is that it doesn't take into account the cost of drops. Drop Kohli this winter, and the vast number of extra runs he'll make could be very costly.Addick Addict said:
Not saying any of what you say isn't true Canters. And I'm certainly not suggesting that he was wrong for doing so but he declined to be part of the Lions trip to Australia.cantersaddick said:
Foakes has said in an interview before that he did struggle after being dropped (incredibly harshly) and it affected him. He had a poor season with the bat (averaged under 30 in a terrible surrey side) but was class as ever with the gloves. He took some time away from the game at the end of that season and came back much better. Stewart saying he is back to his best.Addick Addict said:
Canters will confirm that I've been saying this for years. But, as I have also just said, I believe that it isn't just his loss of form with the bat.blackpool72 said:
Regardless of his form with the bathe is head and shoulders better with the gloves than Buttler ever will beAddick Addict said:
He dropped the easiest one of the lot today. I believe that there is a reason why Foakes isn't being picked and it has, actually, nothing to do with Buttler and Bairstow being regarded as better then him. More to do with the reaction of Foakes to being dropped and his loss of form with the bat.killerandflash said:
He's never been a great keeper, only in the team because he's a great white ball batsman, and England think he can do the same in red ball cricket...Alwaysneil said:Just been watching the highlights. What on earth is Buttler doing? Easy dropped catch and a terrible missed stumping.Can’t miss them mate.
Remember this is a player who in one season (2017 I think) averaged 126 in list A cricket. He is no slouch.
Whether anyone likes it or not, unfortunately, selectors at County and International level have their own ideas about what they want to see players do. Foakes was mentally knackered he says but, that being the case, how was he going to cope had he been picked for NZ and then Sri Lanka? Subsequently declining the Lions tour might be perceived in some quarters as sticking two fingers up at the England hierarchy - or at the very least that he wasn't in the best situation to resume England duties.
There is also a suggestion that he isn't great against the fastest short pitched bowling to which his response has been that "the pull is my strongest shot so to hear that from inside the camp surprised me". Again, turning down the opportunity to go and prove himself in that respect on fast, bouncy tracks in Australia cannot have done his cause too much good.
To force his way back into contention he has to now not only perform but also prove that he is prepared to do the hard yards and see adversity as a challenge - not turn his back on it. And whether anyone likes it or not it is difficult to pick a player who averaged 26.14 in the CC last season especially when we are asking him to bat at 6.
Cricket is a horrible game when you are not in a good place and very often the best thing to do is to get away from that environment. A loss of form only serves to create doubt in ones ability which is then further compounded by a perceived lack of confidence in your ability by decision makers. I have witnessed this at first hand and the only way to break the vicious circle is to get yourself out of that environment and start afresh. Followed hopefully by a run of form that makes it difficult for you not to be picked.
And Foakes currently averages 38 in first class cricket and 41.5 in Tests. Yes his recent form isn't so good, but both are comfortably better than Buttler's averages.
The reason he was picked for SL is because he's been out there four times and plays spin well - his average against them is 69.25 but when he faced the Windies he managed just 55 runs in 4 innings. A small sample but when you add that to his average last season of 26 the doubts are reinforced. Which is why I mentioned Bracey as being Buttler's potential successor - in the eyes of the selectors.
Surely the better play for the selectors if Bracey is the heir apparent would to have him with the test squad at the moment ?There were four reserves for this Test:
James Bracey (Gloucestershire), Ben Foakes (Surrey), Jack Leach (Somerset), Dan Lawrence (Essex).
Commenting on the selection of the squad, National Selector Ed Smith, said:
“After three Tests in quick succession against the West Indies, we now turn to an equally condensed Test series against Pakistan, with 15 days of Test cricket scheduled in a three-week period. Our 14-man squad is unchanged.
County cricket now restarts on Saturday 1st August. We want to have sufficient reserves inside the biosecure Test match ‘bubble’, but we may also want to give opportunities, where possible, for the reserves to play county cricket. As we seek the best balance here, England may make changes to the reserves during the three-match series against Pakistan.”
I may well be totally wrong about Bracey being ahead of Foakes. But there have to be reasons why Foakes is so out of favour which I believe are to do with his perceived lack of confidence against short fast pitched bowling and his choice to go on two holidays in Europe and the USA instead of going on the tour to Australia which Bracey did along with Kent's Ollie Robinson.
That said, it wouldn't surprise me if Foakes did get an opportunity and the inclusion of Bracey was the metaphorical "kick up the backside". Can't think of another reason why Bracey is included if Foakes is already in the squad other than that or to actually play him.
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I used to give up hope in tests matches, assuming they were lost a long time before they actually were. Fifteen years ago today, I learned not to.
MS Kaprowwicz c GO Jones b Harmison 201 -
Can’t believe that was 15 years already. I remember holding in a piss for hours waiting for the last wicket to fall.Chizz said:I used to give up hope in tests matches, assuming they were lost a long time before they actually were. Fifteen years ago today, I learned not to.
MS Kaprowwicz c GO Jones b Harmison 203 -
That was a bit pf a brute of a ball Pope got followed by one to Woakes.
To think Naseem Shah is bowling at 90mph plus and isn't 18 'til next February and could have played for another two years for Pakistan U19s!0 -
It's raining in Manchester!1
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Buttler is doing a good impression of buttler at the moment. Doing okay but will be out third ball after lunch chasing a ball that should be left alone0
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The white ball tour of India has been postponed 'til early 2021 and the five scheduled Tests will also be played on that tour. This is due to the IPL taking place when England were originally due to arrive at the end of September this year0
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Out soon after lunch, but bowled rather than caught!Todds_right_hook said:Buttler is doing a good impression of buttler at the moment. Doing okay but will be out third ball after lunch chasing a ball that should be left alone1 -
Close enough!killerandflash said:
Out soon after lunch, but bowled rather than caught!Todds_right_hook said:Buttler is doing a good impression of buttler at the moment. Doing okay but will be out third ball after lunch chasing a ball that should be left alone1 -
What do you think are the chances the IPL will go ahead this year?Addick Addict said:The white ball tour of India has been postponed 'til early 2021 and the five scheduled Tests will also be played on that tour. This is due to the IPL taking place when England were originally due to arrive at the end of September this year0 -
Every chance. It's being played in the UAE with notionally 24 man squads but unlimited replacements. I suspect that it will depend on the nature of the bio secure environment as to exactly who does turn upChizz said:
What do you think are the chances the IPL will go ahead this year?Addick Addict said:The white ball tour of India has been postponed 'til early 2021 and the five scheduled Tests will also be played on that tour. This is due to the IPL taking place when England were originally due to arrive at the end of September this year0 -
killerandflash said:
Out soon after lunch, but bowled rather than caught!Todds_right_hook said:Buttler is doing a good impression of buttler at the moment. Doing okay but will be out third ball after lunch chasing a ball that should be left alone
Can you pick my lottery numbers?0 -
I didn't know it was going to be in the UAE. That would make all the difference, because India are in a bad place in terms of the virus.Addick Addict said:
Every chance. It's being played in the UAE with notionally 24 man squads but unlimited replacements. I suspect that it will depend on the nature of the bio secure environment as to exactly who does turn upChizz said:
What do you think are the chances the IPL will go ahead this year?Addick Addict said:The white ball tour of India has been postponed 'til early 2021 and the five scheduled Tests will also be played on that tour. This is due to the IPL taking place when England were originally due to arrive at the end of September this year
Will the matches be behind closed doors? Or has that not been announced?0 -
That hasn't been announced but I would have thought it unlikely that there will be crowds simply because, if they want to attract overseas players, they will need to make it as bio secure as possibleChizz said:
I didn't know it was going to be in the UAE. That would make all the difference, because India are in a bad place in terms of the virus.Addick Addict said:
Every chance. It's being played in the UAE with notionally 24 man squads but unlimited replacements. I suspect that it will depend on the nature of the bio secure environment as to exactly who does turn upChizz said:
What do you think are the chances the IPL will go ahead this year?Addick Addict said:The white ball tour of India has been postponed 'til early 2021 and the five scheduled Tests will also be played on that tour. This is due to the IPL taking place when England were originally due to arrive at the end of September this year
Will the matches be behind closed doors? Or has that not been announced?1 -
Holding speaks a lot of sense but his suggestion that lbws given by the umpire that are shown to be clipping the stumps should be reversed to not out is astonishing nonsense tbh3
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Turning into a cracking match. Pakistan have a lead of 244 with 2 wickets left.0
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A bit odd that Archer and Woakes only bowled 5 overs today, when the injured Stokes ended up bowling 4 overs
Woakes was really dangerous too1 - Sponsored links:
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I agree. It's not a decision I would have made. We dont know what has gone on but some things have been suggested at surrey members forums around mental health.Addick Addict said:
Not saying any of what you say isn't true Canters. And I'm certainly not suggesting that he was wrong for doing so but he declined to be part of the Lions trip to Australia.cantersaddick said:
Foakes has said in an interview before that he did struggle after being dropped (incredibly harshly) and it affected him. He had a poor season with the bat (averaged under 30 in a terrible surrey side) but was class as ever with the gloves. He took some time away from the game at the end of that season and came back much better. Stewart saying he is back to his best.Addick Addict said:
Canters will confirm that I've been saying this for years. But, as I have also just said, I believe that it isn't just his loss of form with the bat.blackpool72 said:
Regardless of his form with the bathe is head and shoulders better with the gloves than Buttler ever will beAddick Addict said:
He dropped the easiest one of the lot today. I believe that there is a reason why Foakes isn't being picked and it has, actually, nothing to do with Buttler and Bairstow being regarded as better then him. More to do with the reaction of Foakes to being dropped and his loss of form with the bat.killerandflash said:
He's never been a great keeper, only in the team because he's a great white ball batsman, and England think he can do the same in red ball cricket...Alwaysneil said:Just been watching the highlights. What on earth is Buttler doing? Easy dropped catch and a terrible missed stumping.Can’t miss them mate.
Remember this is a player who in one season (2017 I think) averaged 126 in list A cricket. He is no slouch.
Whether anyone likes it or not, unfortunately, selectors at County and International level have their own ideas about what they want to see players do. Foakes was mentally knackered he says but, that being the case, how was he going to cope had he been picked for NZ and then Sri Lanka? Subsequently declining the Lions tour might be perceived in some quarters as sticking two fingers up at the England hierarchy - or at the very least that he wasn't in the best situation to resume England duties.
There is also a suggestion that he isn't great against the fastest short pitched bowling to which his response has been that "the pull is my strongest shot so to hear that from inside the camp surprised me". Again, turning down the opportunity to go and prove himself in that respect on fast, bouncy tracks in Australia cannot have done his cause too much good.
To force his way back into contention he has to now not only perform but also prove that he is prepared to do the hard yards and see adversity as a challenge - not turn his back on it. And whether anyone likes it or not it is difficult to pick a player who averaged 26.14 in the CC last season especially when we are asking him to bat at 6.
Cricket is a horrible game when you are not in a good place and very often the best thing to do is to get away from that environment. A loss of form only serves to create doubt in ones ability which is then further compounded by a perceived lack of confidence in your ability by decision makers. I have witnessed this at first hand and the only way to break the vicious circle is to get yourself out of that environment and start afresh. Followed hopefully by a run of form that makes it difficult for you not to be picked.
You would hope that the england management would be aware and supportive of the impact the game has on someone's mental health. Particularly after the various high profile cases like Trott and Yardy and many others in recent years This is a player who has toured every winter since he was 17 (whether that was england age groups, lions or a winter abroad as recommendation by his club). If his mental health was affected by the dropping and he felt he needed a winter at home for mental health reasons you would hope the management would back him ir at least understand.0 -
What do we all reckon then.....???killerandflash said:Turning into a cracking match. Pakistan have a lead of 244 with 2 wickets left.
If we can get the last 2 wickets for under 40 runs, is 260-280 get-able...? I heard history isn't on our side & it's only been done once before at Old Trafford.0 -
Just watched itMcBobbin said:Did anyone see the cricket documentary a couple of days ago called The Edge? Thought it was brilliant. It chartered the rise and fall of the England team from getting bowled out for 50 against WI, to Flower taking over and England winning home and away ashes to become no. 1, then our subsequent fall to 5-0 in Australia, and the team falling to mental health issues (e.g. Finn, Trott, Panesar)
Really good, I sort of knew of some of the issues many players had, but the documentary really hammered home how cricket and the culture took its toll.
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Sussex's Ollie Robinson has been brought into the England bubble
Of course it could just be that Ed Smith is doing Kent a favour seeing that we we are playing Sussex today
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Yasir Shah is the sort of man you love to have in your side1
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Great batting, but a shambolic 15 minutes for England
Chris Woakes the forgotten man. 5 overs, 1 maiden, 2-111 -
Latest here is that they're potentially hoping to have fans for the final stages, as it's not scheduled to finish until early November.Chizz said:
I didn't know it was going to be in the UAE. That would make all the difference, because India are in a bad place in terms of the virus.Addick Addict said:
Every chance. It's being played in the UAE with notionally 24 man squads but unlimited replacements. I suspect that it will depend on the nature of the bio secure environment as to exactly who does turn upChizz said:
What do you think are the chances the IPL will go ahead this year?Addick Addict said:The white ball tour of India has been postponed 'til early 2021 and the five scheduled Tests will also be played on that tour. This is due to the IPL taking place when England were originally due to arrive at the end of September this year
Will the matches be behind closed doors? Or has that not been announced?
I'd still say it's unlikely but the number of cases out here is quite low, so there is hope.2 -
Just putting it out there.Does anyone think that there will come a day when there will be no onfield umpires in test match cricket?
Rather than protect the dignity of the umpires you can just refer to technology.
I know it's an erosion of the games traditions but they don't even hold caps or jumpers anymore .0 -
I hope not but I can see it.lolwray said:Just putting it out there.Does anyone think that there will come a day when there will be no onfield umpires in test match cricket?
Rather than protect the dignity of the umpires you can just refer to technology.
I know it's an erosion of the games traditions but they don't even hold caps or jumpers anymore .
Anyone else getting fed up of hearing, ‘oh ya’ after every fecking bowled ball 😩🙄1 -
Boiling up nicely now. You can't beat Test Cricket.4
