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Wigan financial woes - up for sale again? p40
Comments
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Something tells me this is not going to be simple....Chris_from_Sidcup said:2 -
Southall must look wistfully at Wigan and think 'if only I had more time'.13
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se9addick said:
Something tells me this is not going to be simple....Chris_from_Sidcup said:I think it is. They might be claiming force majeure - no chance. They might be claiming that they have continued to meet their debts as and when they fall due, thereby refuting that they breached the EFL regulation - but they have voluntarily gone into administration claiming insolvency!If they don't get the 12 points deducted then just wait for the avalanche!14 -
How about we get 4 points from our remaining games and not worry about Wigan.24
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By all accounts though, the only grounds for an appeal is force majeure. Which we know isn't going to work as the owner took them over a month ago. If he took them over in Feb and then Corona and the shutdown happened they'd have a case.
But i can't see the EFL accepting it. Have you entered administration? Yes. Well there you go then.
I agree the whole thing stinks and it's shit for Wigan and their fans, but how can the EFL make exceptions?
Otherwise you'll have Wigan coming out of admin with a new owner debt free, and carrying on without a points deduction. Surely that can't happen?
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I've been trying to keep people's feet on the ground with this mantra rather than placing over reliance on any penalty point deductions which should be treated as a bonus 😏.mid_life_crisis said:How about we get 4 points from our remaining games and not worry about Wigan.1 -
Focus on Charlton, not the goings on around Charlton as Charlton cannot affect that.
(Replaced 'us' & 'we' with 'Charlton').0 -
Absolutely, the aim needs to be 21st before Wigan are even considered.mid_life_crisis said:How about we get 4 points from our remaining games and not worry about Wigan.
4-5 points from the next 3 games and we'll be fine.3 -
And 'back in the room'Dazzler21 said:Focus on Charlton, not the goings on around Charlton as Charlton cannot affect that.
(Replaced 'us' & 'we' with 'Charlton').3 -
Less than 4 and we deserve to go down to be honestChris_from_Sidcup said:
Absolutely, the aim needs to be 21st before Wigan are even considered.mid_life_crisis said:How about we get 4 points from our remaining games and not worry about Wigan.
4-5 points from the next 3 games and we'll be fine.0 - Sponsored links:
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We shouldn't rely on Wigan being docked 12 points, but we might have to. I agree, we have to get 4 points to have a decent chance of safety.1
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We'll be fine. Standard Millwall debacle aside we've seen enough in the other 4 games to show we'll be ok.Cafc43v3r said:
Less than 4 and we deserve to go down to be honestChris_from_Sidcup said:
Absolutely, the aim needs to be 21st before Wigan are even considered.mid_life_crisis said:How about we get 4 points from our remaining games and not worry about Wigan.
4-5 points from the next 3 games and we'll be fine.7 -
I think we will. But it would be massively unfair on ANY club that subsequently got relegated whilst some lawyers earn a wedge whilst pontificating about wording. The fact is that they are in administration.mid_life_crisis said:How about we get 4 points from our remaining games and not worry about Wigan.
Sheffield Wednesday not being relegated would be a far greater injustice.
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This thread should be about Wigan in admin, not how many points we need left to avoid relegation!6
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I might be making this up in my head, but didn't Palace and Southampton do something similar before? They then got into the premier league within a few years of entering administration.Chris_from_Sidcup said:By all accounts though, the only grounds for an appeal is force majeure. Which we know isn't going to work as the owner took them over a month ago. If he took them over in Feb and then Corona and the shutdown happened they'd have a case.
But i can't see the EFL accepting it. Have you entered administration? Yes. Well there you go then.
I agree the whole thing stinks and it's shit for Wigan and their fans, but how can the EFL make exceptions?
Otherwise you'll have Wigan coming out of admin with a new owner debt free, and carrying on without a points deduction. Surely that can't happen?2 -
FFS. Read the relevant clause again. It gives them the power to decide whether if he pulled the Microsoft scam here, it would be an offence. The PL have the same clause and the PL one came first. So they probably, you know, had legal advice before introducing it.Cafc43v3r said:
I am not disputing what happened in the "Microsoft affair". We have spent hours going over it. My point, as it always has been is as he wasn't found guilty and convicted in court. I wouldn't say he was found innocent btw. The EFL would have to over rule an EU members justice system.PragueAddick said:
Speaking for myself, as someone who went to the EFL as a CAST rep, I am under no illusions that it is an underfunded organisation, that is in no position to thoroughly interrogate the increasingly dodgy shit that owners get up to. It outsources most of the forensic accounting work. This situation arises because of the absurd split between the FAPL and the rest of football, whereby most of the money in football, and how it is regulated is controlled by the 20 owners of FAPL clubs, including the State of Abu Dhabi,one of Russia’s most notorious oligarchs, and an English pornbroker.Cafc43v3r said:I am really confused what people think the EFL are and what resources they have avaliable to them.
How much time and money do bookmakers spend a year on detecting "unusual" betting patterns, the stock markets on preventing insider and rogue trading, the g7 on fraud investigation and prevention, who ever it is that disqualify directors?
Take us as an example we have probably had ten people take the fit and proper test this season. There is no legal reason why any of them would have failed it. They all passed it. Are they all fit and proper?
Before anyone says Southall a spent conviction for a minor crime is not a reason. Neither is being "a bit dodgy".
And before anyone chirps up with "Romanian money laundering" he was not found guilty in court.
The EFL say if something was done that would be a crime if committed in the UK you would fail. Its a crime in Romania, he wasn't found guilty in court.
To blame the EFL for all footballs ills is a sign of ignorance.
You do not understand what Florica has done in Romania, the challenges facing the justice system in that country, or the EFL’s new clause, which is a copy and paste of an FAPL clause. That clause says that if a person did something that would be a crime in the UK,this would be a reason to fail the ODT, even if he wasnt convicted of a crime in his home country. There is no dispute about what Florica actually did in the Microsoft affair. Read it up, and then “chirp up” if you still dispute it.
Speaking of Florica though, my question now is , have he and Mihail really gone, and if so, how much money did they get out of our club? Such lowlife dont work out of the goodness of their black little hearts. A question for @castrust perhaps.
Which I would imagine wouldn't get a sympathetic hearing in a British court.
He probably should be disqualified as a director of any British company but that's not something the EFL can do.
As for blaming the EPL for the under funding of the EFL? That's something the EFL members could solve themselves with a flick of a pen. But they would rather over pay the players, agents and in some cases themselves.
i am not blaming the PL for underfunding the EFL. I am blaming English football for allowing the PL to exist as a separate entity which gets to keep and distribute the money which English football generates. It should be the FA, a beefed up FA, as is the case in Germany.5 -
Southampton were the team that tried to avoid the points deduction by going into Administration when relegation to League One was confirmedstoneroses19 said:
I might be making this up in my head, but didn't Palace and Southampton do something similar before? They then got into the premier league within a few years of entering administration.Chris_from_Sidcup said:By all accounts though, the only grounds for an appeal is force majeure. Which we know isn't going to work as the owner took them over a month ago. If he took them over in Feb and then Corona and the shutdown happened they'd have a case.
But i can't see the EFL accepting it. Have you entered administration? Yes. Well there you go then.
I agree the whole thing stinks and it's shit for Wigan and their fans, but how can the EFL make exceptions?
Otherwise you'll have Wigan coming out of admin with a new owner debt free, and carrying on without a points deduction. Surely that can't happen?
Its the one time the EFL got wise to what they were trying to do so introducted this rule of suspending the deduction till the next season if you get relegated regardless2 -
Thanks for that mate.ForeverAddickted said:
Southampton were the team that tried to avoid the points deduction by going into Administration when relegation to League One was confirmedstoneroses19 said:
I might be making this up in my head, but didn't Palace and Southampton do something similar before? They then got into the premier league within a few years of entering administration.Chris_from_Sidcup said:By all accounts though, the only grounds for an appeal is force majeure. Which we know isn't going to work as the owner took them over a month ago. If he took them over in Feb and then Corona and the shutdown happened they'd have a case.
But i can't see the EFL accepting it. Have you entered administration? Yes. Well there you go then.
I agree the whole thing stinks and it's shit for Wigan and their fans, but how can the EFL make exceptions?
Otherwise you'll have Wigan coming out of admin with a new owner debt free, and carrying on without a points deduction. Surely that can't happen?
Its the one time the EFL got wise to what they were trying to do so introducted this rule of suspending the deduction till the next season if you get relegated regardless1 -
No problem, that one always sticks in the memory as Southampton tried to cheat their way out of the deduction and was the year they went down with us and Norwichstoneroses19 said:
Thanks for that mate.ForeverAddickted said:
Southampton were the team that tried to avoid the points deduction by going into Administration when relegation to League One was confirmedstoneroses19 said:
I might be making this up in my head, but didn't Palace and Southampton do something similar before? They then got into the premier league within a few years of entering administration.Chris_from_Sidcup said:By all accounts though, the only grounds for an appeal is force majeure. Which we know isn't going to work as the owner took them over a month ago. If he took them over in Feb and then Corona and the shutdown happened they'd have a case.
But i can't see the EFL accepting it. Have you entered administration? Yes. Well there you go then.
I agree the whole thing stinks and it's shit for Wigan and their fans, but how can the EFL make exceptions?
Otherwise you'll have Wigan coming out of admin with a new owner debt free, and carrying on without a points deduction. Surely that can't happen?
Its the one time the EFL got wise to what they were trying to do so introducted this rule of suspending the deduction till the next season if you get relegated regardless
They were damned impressive in League One regardless of the 10-pts deduction as almost got themselves into the Play-Offs, we lost 1-0 @ St. Marys which was one reason we didnt get top two and so lost out to Swindon
Was the Palace Administration that year they stayed up on the last day courtesy of beating Sheffield Wednesday?
Typical of those Nigels to bloody well get away with Administration when there was no punishment2 -
Didn't Leicester "benefit" from going into Administration too?ForeverAddickted said:
No problem, that one always sticks in the memory as Southampton tried to cheat their way out of the deduction and was the year they went down with us and Norwichstoneroses19 said:
Thanks for that mate.ForeverAddickted said:
Southampton were the team that tried to avoid the points deduction by going into Administration when relegation to League One was confirmedstoneroses19 said:
I might be making this up in my head, but didn't Palace and Southampton do something similar before? They then got into the premier league within a few years of entering administration.Chris_from_Sidcup said:By all accounts though, the only grounds for an appeal is force majeure. Which we know isn't going to work as the owner took them over a month ago. If he took them over in Feb and then Corona and the shutdown happened they'd have a case.
But i can't see the EFL accepting it. Have you entered administration? Yes. Well there you go then.
I agree the whole thing stinks and it's shit for Wigan and their fans, but how can the EFL make exceptions?
Otherwise you'll have Wigan coming out of admin with a new owner debt free, and carrying on without a points deduction. Surely that can't happen?
Its the one time the EFL got wise to what they were trying to do so introducted this rule of suspending the deduction till the next season if you get relegated regardless
They were damned impressive in League One regardless of the 10-pts deduction as almost got themselves into the Play-Offs, we lost 1-0 @ St. Marys which was one reason we didnt get top two and so lost out to Swindon
Was the Palace Administration that year they stayed up on the last day courtesy of beating Sheffield Wednesday?
Typical of those Nigels to bloody well get away with Administration when there was no punishment2 - Sponsored links:
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Absolutely. If having owners who were disreputable (or worse) constituted force majeure, many of previous points deductions could have been overturned. Moreover, the funds to keep going were in place - it's simply the case that the new owner/majority shareholder chose not to deploy them for reasons which may, or may not, eventually emerge. There are, in addition, sound policy reasons underpinning the mandatory 12 point penalty and I cannot see it being overturned.Chris_from_Sidcup said:By all accounts though, the only grounds for an appeal is force majeure. Which we know isn't going to work as the owner took them over a month ago. If he took them over in Feb and then Corona and the shutdown happened they'd have a case.
But i can't see the EFL accepting it. Have you entered administration? Yes. Well there you go then.
I agree the whole thing stinks and it's shit for Wigan and their fans, but how can the EFL make exceptions?
Otherwise you'll have Wigan coming out of admin with a new owner debt free, and carrying on without a points deduction. Surely that can't happen?
Force majeure - an unforeseeable and irresistible event (usually defined by the parties) - only applies contractually where such a provision has been included. There is presumably such a clause in the EFL Rules, but I think it would be there to cover situations where, for example, a club is unable to field a team of 11 fit players because of a virus and hence unable to fulfil a fixture. Provided they produced credible medical evidence (unlike Middlesbrough many years ago at Blackburn), they could properly invoke the force majeure clause and avoid any punishment.
I expect that Wigan's QC will be advising them in those terms but it's worth a punt by the Administrator. Their very real difficulty is that there's no room for compromise in this case.
Quite how the existing owners managed to sell the club for £2million more than they paid for it and have something like £24million of debt repaid in the middle of a Coronavirus pandemic defies rational explanation. Whatever was going on here, it smells very bad indeed.
Wigan now finds itself in a terrible position and the Administrator has said that he has already turned down offers for players. Antonee Robinson, the left back, is the jewel in the crown. His move to AC Milan for £10million fell through earlier this year following a medical but he has since had a procedure to correct his heart issue and is back playing. The vultures will also be circling for players like Lowe and Moore. It remains to be seen whether there will be any forced sales, although with only a fortnight to go, you'd have thought the squad would be kept intact for the final fortnight.
As other have said on here, we need another 4 or 5 points to survive and do it under our own steam. If so, we won't be on tenterhooks awaiting the outcome of Wigan's appeal or that of Wednesday, should the tribunal find against them. As Charlton supporters, we've got plenty of other crap to worry about over the summer.
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And Swansea.0
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(j) in the reasonable opinion of The League, has engaged in conduct outside the United Kingdom that would constitute an offence of the sort described in paragraph (f) of this definition if such conduct had taken place in the United Kingdom, whether or not such conduct resulted in a Conviction;PragueAddick said:
FFS. Read the relevant clause again. It gives them the power to decide whether if he pulled the Microsoft scam here, it would be an offence. The PL have the same clause and the PL one came first. So they probably, you know, had legal advice before introducing it.Cafc43v3r said:
I am not disputing what happened in the "Microsoft affair". We have spent hours going over it. My point, as it always has been is as he wasn't found guilty and convicted in court. I wouldn't say he was found innocent btw. The EFL would have to over rule an EU members justice system.PragueAddick said:
Speaking for myself, as someone who went to the EFL as a CAST rep, I am under no illusions that it is an underfunded organisation, that is in no position to thoroughly interrogate the increasingly dodgy shit that owners get up to. It outsources most of the forensic accounting work. This situation arises because of the absurd split between the FAPL and the rest of football, whereby most of the money in football, and how it is regulated is controlled by the 20 owners of FAPL clubs, including the State of Abu Dhabi,one of Russia’s most notorious oligarchs, and an English pornbroker.Cafc43v3r said:I am really confused what people think the EFL are and what resources they have avaliable to them.
How much time and money do bookmakers spend a year on detecting "unusual" betting patterns, the stock markets on preventing insider and rogue trading, the g7 on fraud investigation and prevention, who ever it is that disqualify directors?
Take us as an example we have probably had ten people take the fit and proper test this season. There is no legal reason why any of them would have failed it. They all passed it. Are they all fit and proper?
Before anyone says Southall a spent conviction for a minor crime is not a reason. Neither is being "a bit dodgy".
And before anyone chirps up with "Romanian money laundering" he was not found guilty in court.
The EFL say if something was done that would be a crime if committed in the UK you would fail. Its a crime in Romania, he wasn't found guilty in court.
To blame the EFL for all footballs ills is a sign of ignorance.
You do not understand what Florica has done in Romania, the challenges facing the justice system in that country, or the EFL’s new clause, which is a copy and paste of an FAPL clause. That clause says that if a person did something that would be a crime in the UK,this would be a reason to fail the ODT, even if he wasnt convicted of a crime in his home country. There is no dispute about what Florica actually did in the Microsoft affair. Read it up, and then “chirp up” if you still dispute it.
Speaking of Florica though, my question now is , have he and Mihail really gone, and if so, how much money did they get out of our club? Such lowlife dont work out of the goodness of their black little hearts. A question for @castrust perhaps.
Which I would imagine wouldn't get a sympathetic hearing in a British court.
He probably should be disqualified as a director of any British company but that's not something the EFL can do.
As for blaming the EPL for the under funding of the EFL? That's something the EFL members could solve themselves with a flick of a pen. But they would rather over pay the players, agents and in some cases themselves.
i am not blaming the PL for underfunding the EFL. I am blaming English football for allowing the PL to exist as a separate entity which gets to keep and distribute the money which English football generates. It should be the FA, a beefed up FA, as is the case in Germany.
If this is the clause you mean if have read it numerous times. My understanding of it is:
"If you have in the opinion of the league, committed an offense that would be illegal if you had done it in the UK, but weren't convicted of it we can fail you".
And the reason he didn't fail
International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights recognise, under Article 14 (7): "No one shall be liable to be tried or punished again for an offence for which he has already been finally convicted or acquitted in accordance with the law and penal procedure of each country."
If he hadn't gone to court I believe he could have failed the test, but the court finding him "not guilty" ment they couldn't fail him.
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Rick Parry ,head of EFL,on Talksport very soon to discuss the latest on Wigan.0
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I haven't read all the posts on here .. just to say, is the bet laid in the Philippines for Wigan to be relegated common knowledge ? .. I believe that the bet was laid by Wigan's new(ish) owner1
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Parry denied this and said the betting thing is just a rumour. He called it "gossip" whilst seemingly forgetting that he was the one filmed talking about it!Lincsaddick said:I haven't read all the posts on here .. just to say, is the bet laid in the Philippines for Wigan to be relegated common knowledge ? .. I believe that the bet was laid by Wigan's new(ish) owner
So basically the head of the EFL has been filmed talking to a Wigan fan about something he's now admitted isn't true and is just gossip.
Shambles.1 -
What did he say about the -12pts? any grounds in the appeal?
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Interestingly I can't get any relegation odds on Wigan on Betfair or Skybet. That was yesterday, today there are no odds for anybody.
Do you think that's because they're effectively dead and buried or because the bookmaker doesn't want to take bets based on the uncertainty surrounding the application of their points production?
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There are definitely odds up on betfair, as i can see them now.DoctorCharlton said:Interestingly I can't get any relegation odds on Wigan on Betfair or Skybet. That was yesterday, today there are no odds for anybody.
Do you think that's because they're effectively dead and buried or because the bookmaker doesn't want to take bets based on the uncertainty surrounding the application of their points production?
@bobmunro said the other day that bookmakers wouldn't offer odds on Wigan because of the uncertainty around the 12 point deduction, but exchanges will.0
