Wigan are currently holding a press conference. The first thing said was the club are appealing the 12 point reduction that will be imposed for going into administration.
I can't see that they have a leg to stand on tbh. Why even bother?
Neither do I.
I believe their grounds for appeal are based on 'force majeure' - not a chance that holds any water. For that to be a valid ground then there would have had to have been the same owners prior to the pandemic - this mob bought the club 4 weeks ago!
Covid and Force majure isn’t a valid excuse for contract periods to be extended in the construction industry. I can’t see why football would be different
The overriding factor is WHO has committed the offence and any negative repercussions or publicity arising for the ruling body if punishment is meted.
We see this in all walks of life now not just corrupt, incompetent bodies like the football governing bodies.
It will not surprise me in the slightest to see any punishment for Wigan deferred until next season and Sheffield Wednesday will probably walk away scot free.
You sound a bit like trump for blaming the world health organisation!
I actually have a lot of sympathy with the EFL here because they can't win, what ever they do.
Do the fans, players and staff deserve -12 points, through no fault of there own? Of course they don't.
At the same time if they wave the deduction not only would it open legal challenges from who ever gets relegated instead of them but it would say "the rules aren't the rules unless we say so on a case by case basis".
If you "let Wigan off" you open it up to a whole host of ways to abuse it.
Also if Wigan are such a well run club, how comes they can't complete the rest of the season with out a wip round? The owner only withdrew funding, didn't empty the bank account, from what I understand. If they can't play 5 games without a cash injection how were they well run?
Wigan Athletic administrator Gerald Krasner has said the club have appealed against their 12-point deduction for going into administration.
The Football League said the punishment would apply this season if Wigan avoided finishing in the bottom three.
"The only grounds we have for this is 'force majeure'. My reading of it is, that applied to anything outside what we could have expected," said Krasner.
"This situation was totally unexpected, so we believe this case applies."
Force majeure events are usually defined as certain acts, events or circumstances beyond the control of the involved parties, such as natural disasters, war or a pandemic.
Krasner confirmed 75 support staff were made redundant on Monday and that senior club executives have agreed to work for nothing until the situation is resolved.
He also said all furloughed staff were being paid in full on Tuesday, with the first-team squad getting 20% of their salaries.
So 2 thoughts here:
1. Only being paid 20% of their wages has surely got to affect players morale and desire to win games.
2. How can they claim force majeure when the owner took them over during the shut down and put them into admin when games had resumed?
I actually have a lot of sympathy with the EFL here because they can't win, what ever they do.
Do the fans, players and staff deserve -12 points, through no fault of there own? Of course they don't.
At the same time if they wave the deduction not only would it open legal challenges from who ever gets relegated instead of them but it would say "the rules aren't the rules unless we say so on a case by case basis".
If you "let Wigan off" you open it up to a whole host of ways to abuse it.
Also if Wigan are such a well run club, how comes they can't complete the rest of the season with out a wip round? The owner only withdrew funding, didn't empty the bank account, from what I understand. If they can't play 5 games without a cash injection how were they well run?
Spot on, they deserve a 20 point deduction, as do Luton, Barnsley & (just be safe) Hull!
I am no legal expert but I think they are clutching at straws. I would be shocked if the EFL overturn the 12 point deduction. But it is the EFL we are talking about.
I don't think it'll be overturned, and I doubt they (Wigan) expect it to be overturned.
However, that doesn't mean that it's wrong/foolish of them to appeal. I'd certainly be wanting us to appeal to the EFL if they approved a new owner who then put us in administration a month later - not because I'd expect to get the points reinstated, but because it's a way of highlighting and scrutinising the shocking negligence that the EFL is guilty of in this particular case, as well as their generally inept governance.
I think this is being done primarily as a political gesture.
I actually have a lot of sympathy with the EFL here because they can't win, what ever they do.
Do the fans, players and staff deserve -12 points, through no fault of there own? Of course they don't.
At the same time if they wave the deduction not only would it open legal challenges from who ever gets relegated instead of them but it would say "the rules aren't the rules unless we say so on a case by case basis".
If you "let Wigan off" you open it up to a whole host of ways to abuse it.
Also if Wigan are such a well run club, how comes they can't complete the rest of the season with out a wip round? The owner only withdrew funding, didn't empty the bank account, from what I understand. If they can't play 5 games without a cash injection how were they well run?
This.
In effect they are in the same position as they were at the start of the month. If they couldnt afford to pay wages then that that is mis-management. Nothing to do with Covid otherwise 91 other clubs would be doing the same thing.
Also? Covid hit the UK in March & the season stopped early in the month. All this was known before the new owners bought the club.
I do think something dodgy has gone on......maybe there is a betting scam, maybe not. But the EFL rules are pretty clear - if you enter into Administration there is a 12 point deduction. A bit like not satisfying the source & sustainability test. For that you have a transfer embargo. I didnt see us throw our toys out of the pram & appeal. We were massively hampered from January onwards with injuries & could have done with half a dozen new players. If we had strengthend then we wouldn't probably be sitting just outside the bottom 3.
If this is overturned, then what's to stop a couple of dozen other league clubs going into administration to wipe out their debts, knowing they would get no further punishment from the EFL due to 'force majeure'?
There are a lot of indebted clubs that would love the EFL to refuse to sanction Wigan as it would set a precedent and allow them to go into voluntary administration themselves. I wouldn't count on the EFL doing us any favours.
I am no legal expert but I think they are clutching at straws. I would be shocked if the EFL overturn the 12 point deduction. But it is the EFL we are talking about.
If the EFL overturn it wouldn't they then be basically admitting 'ok we fucked up and shouldn't have signed off on this ownership', so for that reason i can't see them doing it.
There are a lot of indebted clubs that would love the EFL to refuse to sanction Wigan as it would set a precedent and allow them to go into voluntary administration themselves. I wouldn't count on the EFL doing us any favours.
I still wouldn't be supprised if dozens of league 1 and 2 clubs still do before the start of next season.
What would be better is if the EFL could insert something into the Terms and Conditions which separates these two versions of Administration
if you go into Administration due to miss-management then you'll get a -12 point deduction
If you cant prove that the club have gone into Administration due to miss-management (e.g. Wigan's case) then its the owner that gets a hefty fine that goes through the courts
Its something that would never happen though, partly because even I know its not as straight forward as that, not to mention that it would probably a ballache of a legal case what with the amount of foreign owners / international law that would surely come into play - You've then also got the scenario that BobMunro rightly states constantly - Why would the EFL agree to this sort of action when it is ran by the owners
There just has to be a better way of handling clubs that go into Administration than what there is now
My other outlandish thought would be that clubs would require EFL permission before going into Administration in the first place
Trouble is again, the speed that the EFL move, the club will probably be gone before any investigation to agree to that action is bloody well completed!!
Politicians make company law and are totally responsible for this shit.
Asking for enquiries and blaming other people is not what they need to be doing now.
Lisa Nandy and Andy Burnham - sort this out - it's your fault.
It’s Andy Burnham’s fault?? The same Andy Burnham, an Everton fan, who is shown in the documentary “Hillsborough - never forgotten” as being the politician who returned to London and told his bosses that the people of Liverpool must be served justice?
As for Lisa Nandy she has done her job as an MP. She has spoken out and got national attention for Wigan’s plight. I regret to say that in our case messrs Pennycook and Efford have been silent recently. But of course the latter is an effing Spanner. Maybe my mistake when writing to him was to emphasise the Romanian money launderer. Far more effective to point out that if Charlton go down or bust, the Spanners lose their 6 point guarantee. I will try that on him.
I have nothing against these two particularly and Andy Burnham is definitely one of our better politicians.
BUT I prefer leaders who stand up and say things like "This is OUR fault - WE must do something about it".
We have discovered that the EFL cannot do absolutely anything about bad owners except deduct points or expel the team from the league.
Now we are suggesting that they don't do either of these things because "somebody" should have prevented the sale "somehow". So let's blame "somebody" for the problem.
This is OUR fault - WE must do something about it
If you mean OUR fault, as in all of us fans who just accept the whole shit structure of English football, rather than organising mass protests and harassing their politicians to get that structure changed, then I agree with you. I fear that that is not what you meant. Are you familiar for example with the Bill that Clive Efford tried and failed to get through Parliament, or all the reform work Damian Collins tried to push through when he was at DCMS? If not, then dont worry as I guess 95% of other Lifers are not either. And thats the problem. Politicians need to feel popular pressure and support from voters for such changes, because after all they will be going against the interests fo entire countries ( Abu Dhabi) as well as Russian economic hustlers and very English pornbrokers.
Over the past few months, I've learnt that it appears possible to
1) Buy a company for nothing.
2) Lend money to the company.
3) Take all that money as salary / payments to yourself and spend it how you want.
4) Put the company into administration.
5) Claim the company owes you the money which you lent it!
The whole system seems wrong - not just football. Trying to blame the EFL or any organisation / individual is pointless. We need to change the laws of the land to stop it happening.
So it's down to us as voters if we want to do something about it.
Sorry to rain on your parade but the problem is there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing any of 1 to 4. In turn:
1. Well not funds-free but you can set up a company for next to nothing. Plus the Companies House fee of £12. You can even go for the seemingly prestigious PLC for a mere £12,500! 2. Many small companies do not and cannot operate without being in receipt of loans from their directors. (The hope being that down the road they will make a profit and the money will be repaid.) 3. If the "assets" of the business are intangible and maybe only consist of the expertise of its staff/directors and precious little else it would be entirely appropriate to spend the money on expenses, salary, etc. 4. Yes, well, that facility has to be available for any number of legitimate reasons. Like Covid-19 for example.
So, you can't really change these things. Of course the problem comes when people manipulate facilities which have to be available to run almost any business. You have to hope that various pieces of legislation act as a back-stop.
Then on to point 5. Well good luck trying to claim any of the money back after the administrators/liquidators/Official Receiver have taken their not inconsiderable slice for the work they have undertaken.
1. Only being paid 20% of their wages has surely got to affect players morale and desire to win games.
Not necessarily, players may have loyalty to the fans or the town (yes it does exist), or might feel aggrieved by how the club has been treated and be extra motivated
And it's not as if it's a long period, in a month's time they'll be able to move to another club and what better way of showcasing your talent than by playing well in the remaining games. Play well, earning the respect of the Wigan fans, and earn a move to a richer club
Wigan are currently holding a press conference. The first thing said was the club are appealing the 12 point reduction that will be imposed for going into administration.
I can't see that they have a leg to stand on tbh. Why even bother?
Ask don't get, don't ask don't get they might as well.
There is one thing that could occur, if the appeal takes long enough then it might force the deduction to go on during next season.
Wigan 'administrator', Paul Stanley, on with White and Jordan. Starts at about -12.30.
His boss Krasner has just been on BBC North West confirming that they have appealed and that three prospective owners have already provided them (the administrators) with proof of funds. Naturally any prospective owner will want the appeal lodged.
Wigan are currently holding a press conference. The first thing said was the club are appealing the 12 point reduction that will be imposed for going into administration.
I can't see that they have a leg to stand on tbh. Why even bother?
Ask don't get, don't ask don't get they might as well.
There is one thing that could occur, if the appeal takes long enough then it might force the deduction to go on during next season.
It's possible, that's why I've consistently said let's just make sure we finish as we stand with three teams below us without having to really on the EFL and points deductions
Wigan 'administrator', Paul Stanley, on with White and Jordan. Starts at about -12.30.
His boss Krasner has just been on BBC North West confirming that they have appealed and that three prospective owners have already provided them (the administrators) with proof of funds. Naturally any prospective owner will want the appeal lodged.
Proof of funds already!
Meanwhile we've been stuck with Nimer and now Elliott since January.
Wigan 'administrator', Paul Stanley, on with White and Jordan. Starts at about -12.30.
His boss Krasner has just been on BBC North West confirming that they have appealed and that three prospective owners have already provided them (the administrators) with proof of funds. Naturally any prospective owner will want the appeal lodged.
Proof of funds or not, they're trying to buy a club that has been placed into administration and therefore will be subject to a 12 point deduction.
Wigan Athletic administrator Gerald Krasner has said the club have appealed against their 12-point deduction for going into administration.
The Football League said the punishment would apply this season if Wigan avoided finishing in the bottom three.
"The only grounds we have for this is 'force majeure'. My reading of it is, that applied to anything outside what we could have expected," said Krasner.
"This situation was totally unexpected, so we believe this case applies."
Force majeure events are usually defined as certain acts, events or circumstances beyond the control of the involved parties, such as natural disasters, war or a pandemic.
Krasner confirmed 75 support staff were made redundant on Monday and that senior club executives have agreed to work for nothing until the situation is resolved.
He also said all furloughed staff were being paid in full on Tuesday, with the first-team squad getting 20% of their salaries.
So 2 thoughts here:
1. Only being paid 20% of their wages has surely got to affect players morale and desire to win games.
2. How can they claim force majeure when the owner took them over during the shut down and put them into admin when games had resumed?
Krasner is misinterpreting Force Majeure ... it cannot apply in these circumstances in the way he has outlined.
In fact, I see no way in which Force Majeure can apply at all. This appeal will fail.
Wigan Athletic administrator Gerald Krasner has said the club have appealed against their 12-point deduction for going into administration.
The Football League said the punishment would apply this season if Wigan avoided finishing in the bottom three.
"The only grounds we have for this is 'force majeure'. My reading of it is, that applied to anything outside what we could have expected," said Krasner.
"This situation was totally unexpected, so we believe this case applies."
Force majeure events are usually defined as certain acts, events or circumstances beyond the control of the involved parties, such as natural disasters, war or a pandemic.
Krasner confirmed 75 support staff were made redundant on Monday and that senior club executives have agreed to work for nothing until the situation is resolved.
He also said all furloughed staff were being paid in full on Tuesday, with the first-team squad getting 20% of their salaries.
So 2 thoughts here:
1. Only being paid 20% of their wages has surely got to affect players morale and desire to win games.
2. How can they claim force majeure when the owner took them over during the shut down and put them into admin when games had resumed?
Krasner is misinterpreting Force Majeure ... it cannot apply in these circumstances in the way he has outlined.
In fact, I see no way in which Force Majeure can apply at all. This appeal will fail.
Wigan Athletic administrator Gerald Krasner has said the club have appealed against their 12-point deduction for going into administration.
The Football League said the punishment would apply this season if Wigan avoided finishing in the bottom three.
"The only grounds we have for this is 'force majeure'. My reading of it is, that applied to anything outside what we could have expected," said Krasner.
"This situation was totally unexpected, so we believe this case applies."
Force majeure events are usually defined as certain acts, events or circumstances beyond the control of the involved parties, such as natural disasters, war or a pandemic.
Krasner confirmed 75 support staff were made redundant on Monday and that senior club executives have agreed to work for nothing until the situation is resolved.
He also said all furloughed staff were being paid in full on Tuesday, with the first-team squad getting 20% of their salaries.
So 2 thoughts here:
1. Only being paid 20% of their wages has surely got to affect players morale and desire to win games.
2. How can they claim force majeure when the owner took them over during the shut down and put them into admin when games had resumed?
Krasner is misinterpreting Force Majeure ... it cannot apply in these circumstances in the way he has outlined.
In fact, I see no way in which Force Majeure can apply at all. This appeal will fail.
Almost certainly IMO. But what will NOT fail is Krasner bumping up his fees on the stricken club for all the extra work he and his many expensive fully qualified insolvency practitioners will have done on the appeal. Not to mention all the extra fees he will be paying away to lawyers to run said appeal. (If I was a cynic, I'd mention snouts in troughs - ooh I just did.)
What would stop esi putting us into administration, or any owner doing the same to reduce the debt, buy back for £1 and sell for £1m? Appeal the points deduction based on force majure
What would stop esi putting us into administration, or any owner doing the same to reduce the debt, buy back for £1 and sell for £1m? Appeal the points deduction based on force majure
Nothing but the 12 deduction which is why it seems very unlikely that Wigan will win any appeal.
Plus the club doesn't have that much debt and the wages are being paid even if we don't know by who?
What would stop esi putting us into administration, or any owner doing the same to reduce the debt, buy back for £1 and sell for £1m? Appeal the points deduction based on force majure
Nothing but the 12 deduction which is why it seems very unlikely that Wigan will win any appeal.
Plus the club doesn't have that much debt and the wages are being paid even if we don't know by who?
I wouldn't have thought an administrator would sell it for £1 though Henners there's the lease, playing squad, the golden share will all be worth something no? Mind you that could get absorbed by the charge I thought Duchatelet took from ESI not to mention the former directors and the Administrator's fees.
I don't think it'll be overturned, and I doubt they (Wigan) expect it to be overturned.
However, that doesn't mean that it's wrong/foolish of them to appeal. I'd certainly be wanting us to appeal to the EFL if they approved a new owner who then put us in administration a month later - not because I'd expect to get the points reinstated, but because it's a way of highlighting and scrutinising the shocking negligence that the EFL is guilty of in this particular case, as well as their generally inept governance.
I think this is being done primarily as a political gesture.
What is the shocking negligence though?
As usual we don’t have all the facts as the process is confidential, but if, as asserted, the new owners passed the FPP test and provided evidence for source and sufficiency of funds, what did the EFL do wrong?
They own the business, they can make any decision they want regarding funding. If Roland had decided to cease lending the club money, there would have been nothing the EFL could do about it. Wigan’s own accounts state that the club is reliant on the owners funding to continue business. The owner withdrawing funding is not a force majure event, any more than the owner going personally bankrupt would be.
If they try, and succeed, with a COVID-19 appeal, then every club should go into administration and restructure their finances.
This all comes back to the failure of people to recognize that the EFL is not a regulator. The are a competition organizer.
Isn’t the FA the regulator overall? Perhaps that’s where the pressure needs to be applied.
Comments
Do the fans, players and staff deserve -12 points, through no fault of there own? Of course they don't.
At the same time if they wave the deduction not only would it open legal challenges from who ever gets relegated instead of them but it would say "the rules aren't the rules unless we say so on a case by case basis".
If you "let Wigan off" you open it up to a whole host of ways to abuse it.
Also if Wigan are such a well run club, how comes they can't complete the rest of the season with out a wip round? The owner only withdrew funding, didn't empty the bank account, from what I understand. If they can't play 5 games without a cash injection how were they well run?
Wigan Athletic administrator Gerald Krasner has said the club have appealed against their 12-point deduction for going into administration.
The Football League said the punishment would apply this season if Wigan avoided finishing in the bottom three.
"The only grounds we have for this is 'force majeure'. My reading of it is, that applied to anything outside what we could have expected," said Krasner.
"This situation was totally unexpected, so we believe this case applies."
Force majeure events are usually defined as certain acts, events or circumstances beyond the control of the involved parties, such as natural disasters, war or a pandemic.Krasner confirmed 75 support staff were made redundant on Monday and that senior club executives have agreed to work for nothing until the situation is resolved.
He also said all furloughed staff were being paid in full on Tuesday, with the first-team squad getting 20% of their salaries.
So 2 thoughts here:
1. Only being paid 20% of their wages has surely got to affect players morale and desire to win games.
2. How can they claim force majeure when the owner took them over during the shut down and put them into admin when games had resumed?
However, that doesn't mean that it's wrong/foolish of them to appeal. I'd certainly be wanting us to appeal to the EFL if they approved a new owner who then put us in administration a month later - not because I'd expect to get the points reinstated, but because it's a way of highlighting and scrutinising the shocking negligence that the EFL is guilty of in this particular case, as well as their generally inept governance.
I think this is being done primarily as a political gesture.
In effect they are in the same position as they were at the start of the month. If they couldnt afford to pay wages then that that is mis-management. Nothing to do with Covid otherwise 91 other clubs would be doing the same thing.
Also? Covid hit the UK in March & the season stopped early in the month. All this was known before the new owners bought the club.
I do think something dodgy has gone on......maybe there is a betting scam, maybe not. But the EFL rules are pretty clear - if you enter into Administration there is a 12 point deduction. A bit like not satisfying the source & sustainability test. For that you have a transfer embargo. I didnt see us throw our toys out of the pram & appeal. We were massively hampered from January onwards with injuries & could have done with half a dozen new players. If we had strengthend then we wouldn't probably be sitting just outside the bottom 3.
Actions have consequences.
if you go into Administration due to miss-management then you'll get a -12 point deduction
If you cant prove that the club have gone into Administration due to miss-management (e.g. Wigan's case) then its the owner that gets a hefty fine that goes through the courts
Its something that would never happen though, partly because even I know its not as straight forward as that, not to mention that it would probably a ballache of a legal case what with the amount of foreign owners / international law that would surely come into play - You've then also got the scenario that BobMunro rightly states constantly - Why would the EFL agree to this sort of action when it is ran by the owners
There just has to be a better way of handling clubs that go into Administration than what there is now
My other outlandish thought would be that clubs would require EFL permission before going into Administration in the first place
Trouble is again, the speed that the EFL move, the club will probably be gone before any investigation to agree to that action is bloody well completed!!
1. Well not funds-free but you can set up a company for next to nothing. Plus the Companies House fee of £12. You can even go for the seemingly prestigious PLC for a mere £12,500!
2. Many small companies do not and cannot operate without being in receipt of loans from their directors. (The hope being that down the road they will make a profit and the money will be repaid.)
3. If the "assets" of the business are intangible and maybe only consist of the expertise of its staff/directors and precious little else it would be entirely appropriate to spend the money on expenses, salary, etc.
4. Yes, well, that facility has to be available for any number of legitimate reasons. Like Covid-19 for example.
So, you can't really change these things. Of course the problem comes when people manipulate facilities which have to be available to run almost any business. You have to hope that various pieces of legislation act as a back-stop.
Then on to point 5. Well good luck trying to claim any of the money back after the administrators/liquidators/Official Receiver have taken their not inconsiderable slice for the work they have undertaken.
Wigan 'administrator', Paul Stanley, on with White and Jordan. Starts at about -12.30.
And it's not as if it's a long period, in a month's time they'll be able to move to another club and what better way of showcasing your talent than by playing well in the remaining games. Play well, earning the respect of the Wigan fans, and earn a move to a richer club
Meanwhile we've been stuck with Nimer and now Elliott since January.
Frivolous appeal.
Plus the club doesn't have that much debt and the wages are being paid even if we don't know by who?