Wigan financial woes - up for sale again? p40
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Unfortunately that is very true ... and I believe you are right to be cynical.cafcfan said:
Almost certainly IMO. But what will NOT fail is Krasner bumping up his fees on the stricken club for all the extra work he and his many expensive fully qualified insolvency practitioners will have done on the appeal. Not to mention all the extra fees he will be paying away to lawyers to run said appeal. (If I was a cynic, I'd mention snouts in troughs - ooh I just did.)stonemuse said:
Krasner is misinterpreting Force Majeure ... it cannot apply in these circumstances in the way he has outlined.Chris_from_Sidcup said:Wigan Athletic administrator Gerald Krasner has said the club have appealed against their 12-point deduction for going into administration.
The Football League said the punishment would apply this season if Wigan avoided finishing in the bottom three.
"The only grounds we have for this is 'force majeure'. My reading of it is, that applied to anything outside what we could have expected," said Krasner.
"This situation was totally unexpected, so we believe this case applies."
Force majeure events are usually defined as certain acts, events or circumstances beyond the control of the involved parties, such as natural disasters, war or a pandemic.Krasner confirmed 75 support staff were made redundant on Monday and that senior club executives have agreed to work for nothing until the situation is resolved.
He also said all furloughed staff were being paid in full on Tuesday, with the first-team squad getting 20% of their salaries.
So 2 thoughts here:
1. Only being paid 20% of their wages has surely got to affect players morale and desire to win games.
2. How can they claim force majeure when the owner took them over during the shut down and put them into admin when games had resumed?
In fact, I see no way in which Force Majeure can apply at all. This appeal will fail.Owing to my consultancy work in international trade, I have been involved in quite a number of attempted Force Majeure cases over the last three months, in which either a bank or a buyer have attempted to relieve themselves of their obligations due to coronavirus.Ultimately, all have failed. Although some received temporary respite from domestic courts (in Asia), these were all overturned.Football may be different, but the legal interpretation of a Force Majeure event does not change.0 -
my point is that if one club escapes a point deduction due to force majure, there is nothing stopping the other 71 teams from going into administration to wipe off debt.Henry Irving said:
Nothing but the 12 deduction which is why it seems very unlikely that Wigan will win any appeal.Todds_right_hook said:What would stop esi putting us into administration, or any owner doing the same to reduce the debt, buy back for £1 and sell for £1m? Appeal the points deduction based on force majure
Plus the club doesn't have that much debt and the wages are being paid even if we don't know by who?
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I hear that Wigan are looking to sell some players today.1
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And it just so happens that the most important EFL club's are the one's carrying the most debt. I think there.must be a lot of behind the scenes pressure on the EFL to set a precedent that will allow for a no punishment debt jubilee.Todds_right_hook said:
my point is that if one club escapes a point deduction due to force majure, there is nothing stopping the other 71 teams from going into administration to wipe off debt.Henry Irving said:
Nothing but the 12 deduction which is why it seems very unlikely that Wigan will win any appeal.Todds_right_hook said:What would stop esi putting us into administration, or any owner doing the same to reduce the debt, buy back for £1 and sell for £1m? Appeal the points deduction based on force majure
Plus the club doesn't have that much debt and the wages are being paid even if we don't know by who?0 -
I hear that the "new owner" is a discharged bankrupt and trading of the "old owners" company's shares trading increased 10000% in the month before they "dumped" Wigan. May not have been through his local bet365 but someone has made a killing out of this.0
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when do you think we will all hear about Shef wed?
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markofkent said:when do you think we will all hear about Shef wed?
Next year knowing the EFL1 -
When they are 13 points above the team in 22nd placemarkofkent said:when do you think we will all hear about Shef wed?11 -
Wigan confirmed they are appealing the points deduction.
If nothing else that could delay the points deduction and see them start in the Championship on -120 - Sponsored links:
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We beat qpr and Hull, so there’s no reason why we can’t take out Reading and Birmingham.ElfsborgAddick said:
Bonne will come good. Not sure about Hemed yet.1 -
So far Hemed has looked better than Bonne for me. But like you, I reckon he will come good.4
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Then the EFL need to act swiftly. Come out before the end of the week saying that no appeal can be heard. Force Majure does not apply & the 12 point deduction stands. No fannying about.CafcSCP said:Wigan confirmed they are appealing the points deduction.
If nothing else that could delay the points deduction and see them start in the Championship on -12
Listening to the Administrator on Talksport it all seems fairly clear. The new owners agreed a business plan with the EFL going forward. They then had a board meeting on the 30th June saying that they were no longer going to fund the club & put it into administration. Seems pretty clear to me. There doesnt seem to be any funding issues with the banks or creditors. The guy on Tslksport said the reason the owners gave was insolvency.0 -
No chance. Their legal case is pretty straight forward anyway, so would be decided either way pretty quicklyCafcSCP said:Wigan confirmed they are appealing the points deduction.
If nothing else that could delay the points deduction and see them start in the Championship on -120 -
If a new owner passes the Fit & Proper Persons Test, or whatever ownership tests the EFL chooses to apply, and then puts the club in administration less than a month later, then either there has been shocking negligence, or the EFL's tests are not fit for purpose, as the new owner is quite clearly not a sufficiently "fit and proper person" to own a football club that competes in the Football League.SomervilleAddick said:
What is the shocking negligence though?MrLargo said:I don't think it'll be overturned, and I doubt they (Wigan) expect it to be overturned.
However, that doesn't mean that it's wrong/foolish of them to appeal. I'd certainly be wanting us to appeal to the EFL if they approved a new owner who then put us in administration a month later - not because I'd expect to get the points reinstated, but because it's a way of highlighting and scrutinising the shocking negligence that the EFL is guilty of in this particular case, as well as their generally inept governance.
I think this is being done primarily as a political gesture.As usual we don’t have all the facts as the process is confidential, but if, as asserted, the new owners passed the FPP test and provided evidence for source and sufficiency of funds, what did the EFL do wrong?They own the business, they can make any decision they want regarding funding. If Roland had decided to cease lending the club money, there would have been nothing the EFL could do about it. Wigan’s own accounts state that the club is reliant on the owners funding to continue business. The owner withdrawing funding is not a force majure event, any more than the owner going personally bankrupt would be.If they try, and succeed, with a COVID-19 appeal, then every club should go into administration and restructure their finances.This all comes back to the failure of people to recognize that the EFL is not a regulator. The are a competition organizer.Isn’t the FA the regulator overall? Perhaps that’s where the pressure needs to be applied.
I agree that an owner withdrawing funding is not a "Force Majeure" event. However, an individual or company acquiring ownership of a club specifically with the intent to do it harm, and the EFL acting as facilitators to that - that might be a "Force Majeure" event. As I said in my previous post, I don't think their appeal will be successful, but anything that shines a light on the total lack of regulation is a good thing in my opinion.
I also agree with you that the EFL is not a regulator. However, they keep pretending to be one by forcing new owners to take a test which achieves absolutely nothing and allows the likes of Laurence Bassini, Matt Southall, the Oystons, the Coventry owners, Steve Dale and all the rest to willfully damage football clubs. They should get rid of the test completely and acknowledge that they are powerless to stop anyone who wants to from buying a football club.
The government, ultimately, is where the pressure needs to be applied. They've already been asked to intervene in the Saudis taking over Newcastle but passed the buck back to the FA. If sufficient pressure is applied then they do have the power to do something about this shoddy situation.
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Should be a quick decision as to if they have any case at all.0
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Just announced on talksport that efl confirm that no appeal will be successful6
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"Players have received 20 per cent of their pay, with administrators hoping to find the remaining 80 per cent via player sales. To that end, the club have appointed an agent to attract buyers, but were at pains to point out that the agent would not be paid by Wigan.
On the appeal, Krasner pointed out no club had ever successfully challenged the 12-point penalty for entering administration, which would be applied this season if the club stay in the Championship or to next season's table if they are relegated.
He said the administrators were also working on a strategy to ensure the club would not be liable to a further 15-point deduction for failing to pay creditors 25p in the pound.
Joint administrator Paul Stanley said the official supporters' club had raised £125,000 by Tuesday morning to cover the costs of travelling to away games and staging home games "even down to putting petrol in the lawnmowers to get the pitches mowed".
The administrators said a local firm, Eavesway Travel, had agreed to cover the cost of getting the first team to their away fixture against Barnsley on Saturday."
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I cant even see Wigan players getting another point themselves if they've got this hanging over themChris_from_Sidcup said:"Players have received 20 per cent of their pay, with administrators hoping to find the remaining 80 per cent via player sales. To that end, the club have appointed an agent to attract buyers, but were at pains to point out that the agent would not be paid by Wigan.
On the appeal, Krasner pointed out no club had ever successfully challenged the 12-point penalty for entering administration, which would be applied this season if the club stay in the Championship or to next season's table if they are relegated.
He said the administrators were also working on a strategy to ensure the club would not be liable to a further 15-point deduction for failing to pay creditors 25p in the pound.
Joint administrator Paul Stanley said the official supporters' club had raised £125,000 by Tuesday morning to cover the costs of travelling to away games and staging home games "even down to putting petrol in the lawnmowers to get the pitches mowed".
The administrators said a local firm, Eavesway Travel, had agreed to cover the cost of getting the first team to their away fixture against Barnsley on Saturday."
I swear those three results of ours prior to lockdown was partly because of the antics going on between Nimer and Southall
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Absolutely tragic if you're a Wigan fan. Could happen to any club outside the top 6.2
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Uncanny pop up ad!
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Just wondered what exactly the EFL fit and proper test actually was.Flash your eyelids, and hand over a suitcase full of reddies?0
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Talk sport, that we’ll known legal firmRedvalleyeast said:Just announced on talksport that efl confirm that no appeal will be successful1 -
Yeah on their say so I'd expect Wigan to get away with it nowTodds_right_hook said:
Talk sport, that we’ll known legal firmRedvalleyeast said:Just announced on talksport that efl confirm that no appeal will be successful0 -
If this keeps us up you could say it's payback for them stealing Andy Delort and his dad from us all them years ago.11
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Could happen to us any day nowcafcnick1992 said:Absolutely tragic if you're a Wigan fan. Could happen to any club outside the top 6.0 -
I agree.cafcnick1992 said:Absolutely tragic if you're a Wigan fan. Could happen to any club outside the top 6.
But what will be an absolute tragedy is if Sheffield Wednesday don’t get relegated for cheating in so many ways over a long period and that this does not happen before the season ends.
If they are not relegated it makes cheating acceptable at the expense of those who tried hard but just couldn’t make it work.30 -
I am really confused what people think the EFL are and what resources they have avaliable to them.
How much time and money do bookmakers spend a year on detecting "unusual" betting patterns, the stock markets on preventing insider and rogue trading, the g7 on fraud investigation and prevention, who ever it is that disqualify directors?
Take us as an example we have probably had ten people take the fit and proper test this season. There is no legal reason why any of them would have failed it. They all passed it. Are they all fit and proper?
Before anyone says Southall a spent conviction for a minor crime is not a reason. Neither is being "a bit dodgy".
And before anyone chirps up with "Romanian money laundering" he was not found guilty in court.
The EFL say if something was done that would be a crime if committed in the UK you would fail. Its a crime in Romania, he wasn't found guilty in court.
To blame the EFL for all footballs ills is a sign of ignorance.0 -
The latest EFL statement is basically saying they are in no position to appeal.
The League fundamentally disagrees with the comments attributed earlier today to Mr Au Yeung Wai Kay where he stated that ‘the Covid-19 pandemic has undermined the ability to fund the Club’. Whilst it is clear that Covid-19 has undoubtedly presented significant financial challenges to the professional game, evidence of the required source and sufficiency of funding to be invested in or otherwise made available to the Club, was provided as part of the recent change of control process.
Under EFL Regulations, it is a requirement that the self-certification Owners’ and Directors’ Test is completed by every prospective new owner and relevant person seeking to gain control of a Club. The test sets out an objective set of Disqualifying Conditions. This process was completed during the recent change of control at Wigan Athletic, and Mr Au Yeung Wai Kay was not subject to any disqualifying conditions.
In all circumstances a sporting sanction applies in respect of an insolvency event (default 12-point penalty). The Regulation seeks to ensure that a Club cannot gain any advantage over other Clubs in the competition by not paying its creditors in full and on time, while also ensuring there is a deterrent in place for Clubs and their owners, from operating in a manner so as to cause insolvency. The EFL acknowledges it is a difficult time for any Club placed into Administration, particularly in the midst of COVID-19, but is mindful that its regulations are to be applied consistently and equally to all member Clubs irrespective of the circumstances.
https://www.efl.com/news/2020/july/efl-update-wigan-athletic/
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