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BBC Breakfast news this morning

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  • HarryTheAddick1
    HarryTheAddick1 Posts: 16
    Surely he would choose the potential £120 mil for PL football for Charlton rather than the £8 mil Liege would get for Champions League Qualification...
  • jac52
    jac52 Posts: 636
    CAFCsayer said:

    In this case it isnt as RD has already said that he is not going to throw silly money at us, but a tie-up could be a way round FFP? Hypothetically, what's to stop Bradley Pritchard going to Leige for £40million? And then us being able to spend that?

    There's a long and boring accounting subject called Transfer Pricing that will likely put the brakes on stuff like this happening.

    And by that I mean he's worth 80m!


  • Fanny Fanackapan
    Fanny Fanackapan Posts: 18,807
    I wonder whether questions on this interview & its ramifications will be put to Katrien & RM at Thursday evening's VIP meeting ?

    Then again, is the Pope Catholic ?
  • vff
    vff Posts: 6,914
    There's a good idea Fanny.

    Would like to know whether RD sees Charlton as a championship club or a league one club or whether he thinks Charlton would ever be in a position to challenge for promotion to the Premiership.
  • Big William
    Big William Posts: 3,864
    I think the technical term is asset stripping.
  • Fanny Fanackapan
    Fanny Fanackapan Posts: 18,807
    Grapevine 49.

    Knowing what you, and most of us know about the gaffer (ie his honesty, loyalty to players who deserve it, strong work ethic to mention a few of his qualities) do you believe he buys into RD's vision ?
  • razil
    razil Posts: 15,041
    honestly do you really think this is going to be a long term thing, have to say I don't, it's an experiment and if it works is bound to come a cropper with UEFA, if it doesn't, well..

    Personally I don't buy that this is our (only) saviour, somehow other clubs manage without being part of a network, seems like an erosion of what it means to support a club to me, just doesn't feel right and supporting a football club is about how something feels.

    Far from convinced myself. It'll be interesting to see how Charlton fans react
  • Tutt-Tutt
    Tutt-Tutt Posts: 3,295
    Players ain't gonna uproot and go to another country to play in a weaker league. If they are good enough to play in the SL first team, they will be picking up higher wages in England anyway. Agents and Players hold all the power these days, owners can't force players to move.

    @church-lane makes a great point about his Valley Gold money. If I was a parent of a promising 14-year-old, I'd think twice about sending my boy to an academy whose main purpose is to produce players for the benefit of a club playing in another country. I'm sending him to one of the other 12 Independent London clubs.
    Also, if I'm a scout for one of the other 12 clubs, I'm telling the parents to avoid Charlton because they are really only a nursery club to Standard Liege. It's dog eat dog on the touch line on Saturday & Sunday mornings. Scouts will use every angle. The scouting network has done a brilliant job for a number of years, identifying some of the players that have come through into the first team. That could begin to dry up if the club try's to move youngsters to Belgium, or one of the other mickey mouse clubs in Rolys network and parents choose other clubs.
  • Mundell Fleming
    Mundell Fleming Posts: 854
    ......... this thread is an interesting read and I would agree with much of what's been said. I'd simply add that one of my own main conclusions is that Roland would appear to be ever so slightly barking ......

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  • stonemuse
    stonemuse Posts: 34,210
    Thinking of posting then read grapevine's post ...says it far better then I could ...great post


    He has a vision that may give us a long term future, albeit with a few bumps along the way. It is worthy of appreciation not suspicion and ridicule.
  • razil
    razil Posts: 15,041
    a large number of posts attempt rational analysis (not suspicion or ridicule), and also who's to say what might have happened if this takeover had not gone through, sure we may have ended up in League one and still may.....

  • Henry Irving
    Henry Irving Posts: 85,457
    Interesting range of views and in particular how it appears that Trust board members seem markedly less positive about the new regime than in previous weeks. That begs the question of what has made them change their view.

    RD's business plan remains shrouded in vague words and what seem contradictory words and action.

    There is still a lot of speculation and wishful thinking that there MUST be a coherent, well thought out plan which favours Charlton (see grapevine's uncharecteristically frustrated and angry posts) when in reality we have only a few pieces of the jigsaw. And no one, especially RD or KM, is letting us have a peek at the picture on the box.
  • razil
    razil Posts: 15,041
    Ben are you a VIP scheme holder?
  • Mckforester
    Mckforester Posts: 854
    stonemuse said:

    Thinking of posting then read grapevine's post ...says it far better then I could ...great post


    He has a vision that may give us a long term future, albeit with a few bumps along the way. It is worthy of appreciation not suspicion and ridicule.

    I agree. Isn't it a pity he plucked us from the doors of admistration and the inevtability of League ! football? .... and the pitch; surely there was someone else happy to pick up the bill to fix it. Oh yes, and that's on top of putting his hand in his pocket to meet ongoing losses. Things have changed but his money has ensured we have a chance to move on from the disaster of the previous owners.
  • razil
    razil Posts: 15,041
    funny they said that before the last lot came along..

    I don't think the Trust like many fans has made its mind up yet, still really trying to assess how things are looking, so my views are my own. Personally not yet convinced as I said.

    I think we can focus now on the cup and the fight against relegation, but it will be interesting to see how fans react to all of this.
  • Derek1952
    Derek1952 Posts: 781
    Does anyone know if there was any other serious contenders to buy the club before RD?I know the American,s name was mentioned.
  • Henry Irving
    Henry Irving Posts: 85,457
    edited March 2014
    Mckforester said:

    stonemuse said:

    Thinking of posting then read grapevine's post ...says it far better then I could ...great post


    He has a vision that may give us a long term future, albeit with a few bumps along the way. It is worthy of appreciation not suspicion and ridicule.

    I agree. Isn't it a pity he plucked us from the doors of admistration and the inevtability of League ! football? .... and the pitch; surely there was someone else happy to pick up the bill to fix it. Oh yes, and that's on top of putting his hand in his pocket to meet ongoing losses. Things have changed but his money has ensured we have a chance to move on from the disaster of the previous owners.
    But that was the defence often made of the TJ and MS ie they saved us, they are putting their hands in their pockets, they haven't sacked Powell, they paid for Wilson and err.

    I am certainly not defending TJ and MS in anyway. I think they did great damage and left a mess that still hasn't been cleared up but we can't measure RD as a "good thing" just because he isn't Silent Tone or Mickey Blue Moon.

    We have to judge him on what he does to take the club forward. So far we have a dome, hints of a new pitch, one new first team player (AA) and some vague talk about youth and breaking even. Early days for sure but I can see why people are uncomfortable and uneasy with the lack of contracts for key personnel, new first team ready players or firm statements on future action on the academy and other infrastructure issues

    We shall see what KM has to say at the VIP meeting. Notes on Friday morning but not expecting too much.
  • Weegie Addick
    Weegie Addick Posts: 16,670
    edited March 2014
    If RD is the great visionary some would like to believe, I would expect him to be capable of making two short-term investment decisions which would benefit the Club long-term:

    - Sign CP up on what he wants - a 12 month rolling contract
    - Commit to developing a category 1 Academy, even if it is realistically part of a mid to longer term plan

    In my experience, people with vision are good at recognising strengths and acting upon them. At the risk of becoming a stuck record, actions speak louder than words, Mr D...
  • C_A_F_C
    C_A_F_C Posts: 3,878
    Atletico Addick said:

    Darty Valiant said:

    Saw the local news. Sounded to me that the SL guy expects CAFC talent to go to SL. In return, we get those who are found not to be good enough for SL.

    If the above is correct, that sucks.

    Pretty much. You can gloss it up all you like with theories etc., but this is how it is to the best RD can, we will have players with histories of injuries, non-scoring strikers and hit and miss players, they'll take our best if they can.

    For example we have got 5 in , PP, Reza, Koc, Nego & AA.. AA is the only impact player we've had so far, only one that can warrant a start in our starting XI, granted it's early doors but...PP not built enough for this league, Koc an U21 player, Nego can't get a starting position, and Reza's job is nothing but to score goals, this he has not done. Let's see how it unfolds, let's hope the FA Cup bubble doesn't burst or we're in for a long old season
    Hate to remind you but you seem to have forgot a Mr. Thuram-Ulien.

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  • Sillybilly
    Sillybilly Posts: 9,253
    It's a bit like the Celtic issue in Scotland. Utterly skewed because they are guaranteed champions league every year yet the standard of the league they play in is piss poor. I fail to believe that the standard (sorry) of your average Belgian league 1 side is any better than our championship. I really do. Why would any of our very promising youngsters want to go there other than the intelligent ones who might want to go for life enhancing reasons - learn a language, get used to a different lifestyle etc. I'm pretty sure that the footballing experience won't be any better other than for three champions league games every year - oh and you might not get the shyte kicked out of you every week. Hang on.....,,,,!
  • razil
    razil Posts: 15,041
    Cat 1 needs enormous investment, doesnt sound very likely at this point

    As for CP who knows, not a huge investment
  • Mckforester
    Mckforester Posts: 854
    Henry Irving said:

    Mckforester said:

    stonemuse said:

    Thinking of posting then read grapevine's post ...says it far better then I could ...great post


    He has a vision that may give us a long term future, albeit with a few bumps along the way. It is worthy of appreciation not suspicion and ridicule.

    I agree. Isn't it a pity he plucked us from the doors of admistration and the inevtability of League ! football? .... and the pitch; surely there was someone else happy to pick up the bill to fix it. Oh yes, and that's on top of putting his hand in his pocket to meet ongoing losses. Things have changed but his money has ensured we have a chance to move on from the disaster of the previous owners.
    But that was the defence often made of the TJ and MS ie they saved us, they are putting their hands in their pockets, they haven't sacked Powell, they paid for Wilson and err.

    I am certainly not defending TJ and MS in anyway. I think they did great damage and left a mess that still hasn't been cleared up but we can't measure RD as a "good thing" just because he isn't Silient Tone or Mickey Blue Moon.

    We have to judge him on what he does to take the club forward. So far we have a dome, hints of a new pitch, one new first team player (AA) and some vague talk about youth and breaking even. Early days for sure but I can see why people are uncomfortable and uneasy with the lack of contracts for key personell, new first team ready players or firm statements on future action on the academy and other infrastructure issues

    We shall see what KM has to say at the VIP meeting. Notes on Friday morning but not expecting too much.
    I don't disagree and Thursday may help reveal more but, like you Henry I am not expecting much of significance from the meeting. in my view, the full text of RD's interview with the BBC, doesn't warrant much of the over-reaction in this thread. It may not work out but it is too early to right off RD's ownership of the club simply because we are now part of a network of clubs and he hasn't immediately dipped into his coffers to fill gaps in the squad.
  • AFKABartram
    AFKABartram Posts: 58,122
    edited March 2014
    Very enlightening thread
  • rikofold
    rikofold Posts: 4,051
    PragueAddick said:

    This is the odd line

    it's not to be excluded that some players will be sold to Standard Liege, and play Champions League.

    He cannot mean that word, sold, literally. He does not want to sell players to himself . One part of him will get ripped off :-)

    He ought to clarify what kind of transaction will take place. Will there really be money paid from Standard to Charlton in such a case? Who will decide what a 'fair' price would be in such a case?

    Up until now his financial success has been based on getting other clubs to pay him good money for players, and replacing them with players that cost him nothing as they come through the academy. That is a quite different business model to trading players within a network. Yes global companies do employ transfer pricing to make transactions between their national units. I just do not think that this is really what he intends here.

    To be honest, I don't think he has thought that part through himself yet. He's got this vision, but there may be some pesky details, some of which might just turn out to be more than just details...

    You could be right, but in another part of the interview - when asked about Charlton's standing in his network - he states that his clubs standalone, managed locally, but will benefit from the resources across the network. I guess this might mean that SL - and other clubs in his network - get first option provided the finances stac up. It doesn't necessarily mean Charlton won't get market rate, doesn't mean they will either but if he's not intending to pass wooden dollars then it wouldn't make sense for SL to get a cheapie.

    To me, the oddest thing about the interview was that he doesn't seem to have a clear business plan for Charlton. I mean, I understand he doesn't want to lose a fortune but he's inherited a very good manager who knows how to get more from his team than the sum of its parts. With investment balanced by profits elsewhere in his network, he could be sitting on a Premiership gold mine - but it just doesn't seem to excite him. Time will tell, I guess. Still interesting.
  • Viewfinder
    Viewfinder Posts: 4,922
    edited March 2014
    razil said:

    honestly do you really think this is going to be a long term thing, have to say I don't, it's an experiment and if it works is bound to come a cropper with UEFA, if it doesn't, well..

    Personally I don't buy that this is our (only) saviour, somehow other clubs manage without being part of a network, seems like an erosion of what it means to support a club to me, just doesn't feel right and supporting a football club is about how something feels.

    Far from convinced myself. It'll be interesting to see how Charlton fans react

    I share your scepticism, Razil. Furthermore, reliance on an inbred 'network' and a worthy-but-dull academy hardly sets my pulse racing.

    Amid all the endless speculation about Duchatelet's business strategies, I haven't forgotten the vital qualities I want from watching live football: heroism, entertainment, excitement, thrills. I have spent 600 quid in attending every home game this season and last - and can count on the fingers of one hand those games that have delivered the goods.

  • seriously_red
    seriously_red Posts: 5,741
    edited March 2014
    I have been spared the horrors of some of our recent away performances losing 3-0 to Doncaster and Leicester but thought I saw something in my last three games (Birmingham, QPR and Sheffield Wednesday) and that is a competent midfield who can play football.
    Harriott is back playing and what I see in the centre with a combination of Jackson, Ajdarevic, Poyet and Cousins is decent. People have moaned that we sold Stephens but this has led to Poyet arriving on the scene so what's not to like?
    I am as frustrated as the next fan that we are not bringing in one or two more players to get us through to Wembley and secure some points on the board but I am not 100% clear who is responsible for getting loan signings across the line...perhaps someone can ask at the VIP meeting.
    Henry Irving said:


    RD's business plan remains shrouded in vague words and what seem contradictory words and action.
    There is still a lot of speculation and wishful thinking that there MUST be a coherent, well thought out plan which favours Charlton (see grapevine's uncharecteristically frustrated and angry posts) when in reality we have only a few pieces of the jigsaw. And no one, especially RD or KM, is letting us have a peek at the picture on the box.

    I am interested in what you consider the contradictory words and action. Perhaps it is the same as I have noted in that with Sundays winners taking £1.4M where are the reinforcements to assist our quest for a semi final appearance. Or maybe you have other observations to add to the mix?

    I think I have quoted Mintzberg on here before who believed that strategy is simply a pattern which emerges from a stream of decisions. If posters on here venture to interpret this pattern then please don't confuse that with the belief that they subscribe to the strategy being 100% correct. Fans from all backgrounds can see a pattern emerging and I believe that the next three game performances will make it even clearer to read.

    We are playing Sheffield United, Huddersfield and Millwall, not Brighton, Forest and Burnley. Many of the players will have enjoyed success against these two Yorkshire clubs. Not sure why but I just sense we might get a result vs Millwall this time?! If we can play the first half hour of each game like we did vs Wednesday and QPR then we will get some results to smile about.
  • Grapevine49
    Grapevine49 Posts: 1,000
    Henry - I apologise if I am getting "cranky" but I think I must have posed the same question 4 or 5 times - what is the alternative?

    I quite understand people do not want to answer but to endlessly complain about someone who is at least trying to not only offer but financially facilitate (where needed) an alternative option is not only unrealistic in the time frame but beyond churlish.

    That does not give RD a "carte blanche" but it does recognise he has taken over a bit of a basket case of club. I have commented further on the Polish Pete thread on the nature of this years "investment".

    Razil - I would love to know on what basis you perceive RD is not in this for the long term. I appreciate there were probably quite a few "investors" who would not deal with the likes of the TJ/MS, but most I suspect were waiting for the club to go into administration to wipe out a very large proportion of the clubs' formal and friendly debt. I know I would have.

    Any new investors may well have more faith in RD as a respected and active businessman but are they really going to pay RD the going rate? For the reported price paid he would have to do an awful lot of asset stripping very quickly to get his money back. For what end? He is hardly short of a bob or two.

    Fanny - In terms of Mr Powell - I share Dick Plumbs view - I think he has been offered a contract/role with the club but perceive the job description is not the one CP would readily sign into. I am not sure at this stage it is/ will be the Head Coach of CAFC.

    As you rightly say CP has many admirable qualities but in the RD model does he tick all the boxes of a Head Coach.

    CP has a good eye for a player, knows how to balance the skills across a group of players and bring in players to augment those skills to the maximum benefit of the group. He clearly has the ability to organise, manage and motivate people to a very high professional standard.

    Fully support him with his "plug and play" Plan A and the chances are you are onto a winner.

    My concern and I suspect RDs' challenge is the improvement of individual players. As a Head Coach there are two key aspects:

    - Improving the players under your control.

    - Fully utilise the playing resources available to the squad.

    I am not sure we have seen the player progression you might expect under a top quality technical coach. I am also concerned there are too many players no longer contributing to the squad which can badly impact your playing options. I am not quite sure how good he is in implementing a Plan B.

    For RD if you seek to build your empire on developing young players through the academy or secured from the lower leagues the technical ability of your head coach is fundamental to their graduation to the senior squad.

    Financially especially if you putting players on long term contracts it is also crucial you are able to maximise the playing resources available to you.

    Can CP fulfil the role RD seeks? I certainly think he has earned the right to show he can. If he were still coaching Leicester City reserves he would snatch RD's arm off but he has shown given the right support he can deliver under the more traditional UK manager role. I suspect he would feel more comfortable in pursuing other options that more readily reflect such duties.




  • Scoham
    Scoham Posts: 37,696
    As said interesting thread. I can understand both those feeling positive and those concerned where this is taking us.

    I have no issue with us having to sell players. Most clubs outside the Premier League have to do the same, and without a billionaire pumping in millions each season attempting to buy promotion we need to find a way to keep the club running.

    I want to see us in a stronger position in which we're not having to sell a player like Shelvey for only £1.7m (or whatever the fee was), lose Palmer for minimal compensation or worry that another Jenkinson/Poyet has broken through but only has a contract until the end of the season. We struggled to bring academy players through while in the Prem and when we came down we built a big squad of players that were supposed to be promising but many didn't make the impact hoped or expected. Out of that squad though there's a few academy players that are at Championship or Prem clubs. Wright, Arter, Randolph, Elliot for example, while Racon, Yassin, Sinclair, McLeod etc moved down the leagues. Although we've got a good academy I don't think we used it as well as we could have done in the first few seasons after relegation.

    It's only in the last few years, mainly under Powell, that we've given young players a run of games. This season we've also signed several up on long term contracts. Hopefully this continues with more breaking through and impressing in the first team. If they're on long contracts but do leave we should at least get bigger fees for them, something clubs like Southampton and Palacr have managed to do for their best young players.

    One concern around this is the possibility these players may move to SL. I'm not sure I really see this happening. The player still has to agree to it, and good young British players will attract Premier League teams. How many would turn them down a decent mid table side looking to push for a European place and instead play in Belgium for SL?

    I think it's more likely a signing like PP has a good season for us and moves on to SL. While we may miss out on a big fee, we may potentially find a replacement more easily. And as suggested if they sell a player for £10m+ some of that money may come to us.

    A concern I have is whether Powell or a new manager really can build a team spirit if players are regularly coming in and out of the club from "the network". Koc seems to be here to be developed rather than for our own clubs benefit. If Nego struggles to break through will he simply move to another one of RDs clubs in the summer with another similar player moving here in his place? The Championship is a difficult league, as great as it could be to see young players come in and develop with us, we will always need a number of proven players that we know will compete at this level. There is that worry at the moment that the quality needed for this division has been undestimed.

    I really couldn't predict idea how this might turn out. It's going to be an interesting summer, does Powell stay or go, if he goes who replaces him, what players we bring in and where from, which clubs we sell players to and how does our squad look at the end of it. I've felt for a few weeks the plan is around developing players and selling them on to keep the club running and these interviews and quotes still seem to point towards that. But do we need to be in a network to do that and can it work better with players across Europe rather than simply bringing in promising British players from the lower leagues.

    As Grapevine said it could well give us a long term future but probably with a few bumps along the way. What I do expect from this is a some more decisions that confuse and frustrate. We could end up watchjng some exciting players that wouldn't usually sign for us, but equally we may end up with a squad of foreign players not suited to lower league English football.

    Although I'm far from convinced I'm hoping in time this might just work out well for us. It's not as exciting had a billionaire come in and spent £10m on proven Championship players but it could work out better in the longer term with less debt, a manageable wage bill and a focus on value for money.
  • razil
    razil Posts: 15,041
    I believe there were/are alternatives, am happy to talk with anyone offline, but for now I think we get behind cp and enjoy this Sunday.

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