-He mentions that there is the possibility of our best players going to Liege, which is fair enough - we are essentially a feeder club and Liege is big enough to be a parent club for us. -We will benefit from loans in, as evident by Astrit and co. coming in this year. -RD wont force anything, eg. by pumping money into one of the clubs or completely stripping all assets into a single club. -If we venture into the EPL, we could shift to become the priority. That would obviously be more lucrative than Liege in the Champions League. -He will aim to break even and make profits at all clubs.
I would be more worried if I was the Hungarian, Spanish or German club! Even Liege fans are unhappy that we may become the priority...
We obviously sold Kerm and Dale to balance the cheque book. Really interested to be part of this project.
Yes we have really benefited from the loans in so far haven't we, Astrit & co have made a big difference?
Obviously that is down to personal opinion...
I wonder who changed the game against qpr and put the cross in for the johnnie jackson last minute goal? Was it not AA? I'm sure thats a huge part in terms of 3 points difference that we never expected to get, which closed the gap on rivals and then reignited our belief to follow on at sheffield wednesday to get us to the quarter finals of the FA Cup.
Na not much of a difference at all. Could have kept stephens and kermorgant, who lets not forget got us in such a secure position in the league, and were able to beat sheffield wednesday and qpr earlier in the season....... Ah wait we were on a winless run and lost to QPR and drew to sheffield wednesday earlier in the season, so thus far things have changed for the positive IMO! Granted i did not want to lose kermorgant and we haven't replaced him as yet but astrit for one is an improvement on stephens and we are playing better football (actually on the floor) as shown in the sheffield game, as a result of it.
what he is saying before you bite my head off is that he will run a stable business model. we will recieve bothe neds of the network and also use our top academy. however he will probably not sell our best players at once or anything like that. i definately think though that this summer he will sell aging players like mark gower. we have seen cousins, poyet and fox blood in this season and next season probably 2 or 3 more.
True its one cross, but it led to 3 points. And its not just the cross, it is AAs influence in particular - a lot of people agreed that he changed the game against QPR, but if we hadnt had them loans (AA) in particular, we would not have had any creativity against QPR or sheffield wednesday and without scoring would surely have lost them games and be in an even worse position
The Standard Liege guy was clear that he expects the best players available, when they are at their peak, to be at Standard Liege.
Roland says the managers will have to agree and sort things out between them as to who plays where, but he also suggested there is an organic quality about this, I suspect there would have to be, because players would have to agree to a move themselves....mind you money screams doesn't it?
So what happens if the SL man says 'I want Joe Gomez', and Chris Powell says 'I want him too'. Do you sack Chris Powell and get a yes man in? Seems likely to me and it is breaking my heart to type this.
Of course it may be that eternal consensus can be reached, and everybody is content with that.
If it is a new manager/coach is appointed, especially given what would then be our 'feeder club to Liege' role, then where would be the compelling need to be a supporter of that?
It is realistic to say our good players would move on anyway, I get that, and there is some intrigue in the football family idea...providing all the family members get on.
There is greater merit in saying to a player such as Archie Edwards 'I know there are overtures to leave Charlton and sign for Tottenham at your age, but stay here and there is a route to Champions League Football'.
We have lost two promising young players to Arsenal and Chelsea in recent years, and this concept, plus a serious upgrade of the Academy has a great degree of common sense, and I believe this is Roland's point.
Roland is saying, 'OK, you can carry on more or less as always, lose money constantly chasing dreams, or fending off disasters where the only way out is the premier league or a sugar daddy'. Or maybe don't buy players develop them, stop losing money hand over fist. As part of the group there is a financial safety net which will be realised (as in treating your children fairly?) If Liege take one of your players, there may be some money, or compensation in as much as a player 85% as good as the one transferred will come in.'
Or go bust if you like.
Could it be possible that both Standard Liege and Charlton could benefit? Could it ever happen that we get into the Premier League, and they get the Champions League?
The only scenario I can think of right now is if Standard are running away with their league by Christmas/January, at the same time we are having a good season and are in the top four or so. If that was the case Liege may be able to ship over some absolute top quality players to push us over the line. Indeed we already see that concept happening (so far in theory only!) as Liege has shipped over players to try to push us over the line to safety.
However we have lost Yann, Dale and Ben in the process, and if it fails and we are relegated then squad change rather than squad strengthening will be to blame.
If we stay up, the crucial question is where Chris fits in. Chris has already engaged with Roland, he says he wants to stay, build a legacy, is that in the context of the 'feeder club'/wonderful academy concept though? Can this happen? Can everybody give a bit?
The interview with the Standard Liege man was absolutely badly judged, and well done to the reporter by the way. There is apparently to be a meeting with all the clubs next week, who attends from Charlton we don't know. However it may be a good idea if Chris is there for the Liege guy to apologise for his lack of respect in that interview, not lack of respect for Chris, but lack of respect in his unthinking dismissal of Charlton as a serious club.
We need good representation at that meeting, and we need to find a way where all the clubs are treated with respect, and to use the analogy of Roland's football family, where we don't have the eldest child having their own room, whilst the other five all have to share with each other.
I would feel more optimistic if RD's other clubs were Barca, Juventus & Bayern.
One of the worrying points for me from the article was where it said players not getting a game at SL would be sent to Charlton - to me that is saying they are not good enough for SL but will do for CAFC (like we are a charity shop, where we all dump our rubbish). Surely if they were any good they would be playing in SL's first team?
I'm starting to dislike this new owner & his megalomaniac ways more with each passing week. Whether or not our players will want to move abroad probably will not come into the equation - by all accounts Yann didn't want to leave but was shipped out regardless.
Still without this owner we would have gone under. 10 point penalty and would be down.
So this is better surely?
If we go down this season even with RD at the helm, we will drop further down his pecking order and want to spend less on us, and it's more reason to take our real quality out and sell, for a lesser price, or ship to his other clubs. He's playing with fire in that we are a very poor asset if he plays about too much. Players need to be signed to your club and dedicated to your club, we don't want to get his deadwood at SL fit then back they go, joined on the plane by our best player.
As the article says. £8 million a season for SL in CL. £120 million a season for CAFC in the Prem Just one season is 15 years in the champ league at SL
Say we're doing okay in the championship but we have a red hot star coming through. Where would that player rather go? Standard Liege or go to a club in the premier league? With the greatest of respect to the belgian league, the player would not earn as much nor be playing with the best players in the world.
This may all be irrelevant if RD sells Standard...
It is not in RD's interests to get so closely involved in the decisions around player movements that he cannot hold the management of individual clubs to account. This is why sensible business investors do not micro manage but let their managers make the decisions for good or bad and the managers take the credit or the rap. Only multi-billion pound egotistic glory hunters micro manage and look for "yes men" managers, and I don't see RD as falling into that category.
Managers have always been forced to sell players for financial reasons, and that is what has happened recently. Griping about the quality of the replacements needs to be set against the alternative of not having them replaced at all. RD is trying to say clearly that players will be sold, rather than let the club face financial instability. Those unhappy with the degree of squad strengthening are refusing to accept the alternative was a worse place financially, even if it guaranteed staying up. RD could have written the introduction for CAS Trust on the overriding objective of, above all else, preserving the club for future generations and the community.
There will potentially be competition between sister clubs to get the best deal when a player transfer is on the table. If we accept RD's position, and I tend to, that he wants clubs to deliver their own destiny, then I believe KM will be involved in the financial arrangements between clubs and seek to establish market terms and valuations and fairness between sister clubs. Managers worth their salt wouldn't work under a system where they were accountable but had to agree to sell players internally below market value, or pay inflated wages, with no financial adjustment.
A fair transfer agreement between sister clubs at least avoids the normal bun fight starting with an over-inflated offer price tag and an agreed price determined by how desperate the selling club is.
The meeting between clubs being talked about just makes sense to ensure the clubs understand what the rules are around exchanging players. If RD does get involved in trying to influence transfers against the manager's will that is when we can say RD speaks with forked tongue.
Until then I give him the benefit of the doubt and taking RD's words at face value regarding clubs managing their own destiny, I do not see the risk of us losing good players has increased, and the value from players who advance beyond CAFC more likely to be maximised.
Ok, a short transcript from the interview itself below. Personally I think if it was Richard Murray saying this we'd probably have little problem with it. We don't know RD, and I think that's a bit part of the concern. That said, it does sound from what he's saying that he's not at Charlton with an urgency for Premier League football, which may perhaps suggest the network is being built for Standard Liege's benefit. But it can't be just that if he's considering a sale. Evidence at SL so far is that he will reinvest transfer funds to a break even point, which means we'll need to get used to selling our best players to enhance the squad. A bit like selling Mills to bring in Kiely, Shields and Stuart, perhaps.
Can you assure fans that the promising players that come through this academy will get their chance here at the Valley rather than being taken to Belgium to try and help Standard Liege get into the Champions League?
Yes, well, for example to have the experience to play Champions League - it is very very interesting you say this but Charlton in this way is the only club in the championship who can offer this possibility to some youngsters that they may play Champions League...with Standard Liege (somehow!). That will depend on whether the player likes it, of course, but this club also needs to make some money at a given point and it's not to be excluded that some players will be sold to Standard Liege, and play Champions League.
You look at this purely as a business don't you.
In fact, not at all. I think football is too great to be just a business. Of course there is a business side to the football in the sense that at the end of every season you have to count the money and see whether the money you got in is enough to pay the expenses, and you know few clubs do so. I intend to do so.
If you were able to take Charlton into the Premier League, in financial terms that would be worth far more than taking Standard Liege into the Champions League. It would make sense to make Charlton your priority would it not?
Yes, but in general my main concern is not so much this or that. If it has to be done it should be done from this management and they are responsible to do it in a responsible way, a responsible way being we don't want to lose a lot of money by trying to do so but we do want to give changes to younger players and so forth. It has to be a natural thing to happen than to try to do it with a lot of money, that's not what we will do.
It's a sales pitch to the likes of Diego Poyet and his cohort who I believe won the U18 category 2 league a year or two back - they are good but not quite old enough to all be in CAFC first team squad...just yet. Question is will they buy it and sign long term deals for CAFC.
The downside is that he is closing the door on acquiring players by transfer to add to the academy graduates. I say this because I think it would help sell tickets and show ambition to the players that we want to compete at the right end of the table. But he is saying "we don't want to lose a lot of money" (like Leicester, Cardiff and Forest). He is NOT saying that CAFC must break even at all costs.
I think the management of playing style and talent across the group is not properly addressed - he sits on the fence when challenged about prioritising Premier League promotion. As has been mentioned elsewhere a group director of football may be the only way to manage tensions. The unwanted part of the League 1 championship squad will depart this summer and there will be a lot of squad numbers available. Will these go to academy players, Liege players or perhaps one or two from outside the group?
As some will know the supporters Trust (and others) have attempted to outline the cup revenues coming in these last couple of months and the value of next Sunday's game. They are decent up until Sunday with c. £950K coming in and spectacular if we win. So CAFC will post its best financial performance since Premier League relegation if we make it to Wembley with losses of £3-4M as opposed to £6-7M over the last few seasons.
It is much more difficult to estimate additional league revenues coming in from competing for the top six but I would contend that they will help finance the club AND that a successful squad will help player retention and improve sale value. I see no reason why we can't move the average attendance upwards and I hope that this organic approach would appeal to our new owner?
I think RD has realised that any players not good enough for SL is not necessarily OK for us. Three players Reza, PP and Koc may turn out to be good signings, but not yet. The fact that we have bought two makes no difference, if they turn out good we may have to sell to SL Must not forget that RD may sell SL if the offer is right, then what, do we become top dog, and have the best players from his other clubs, and would we complain. I think he may be better than what has happened at Pompey, Brum and other clubs. (I hope I am right).
In this case it isnt as RD has already said that he is not going to throw silly money at us, but a tie-up could be a way round FFP? Hypothetically, what's to stop Bradley Pritchard going to Leige for £40million? And then us being able to spend that?
goes on to say clubs must sell to break even or some such, and that this may mean being sold to Liege if I understand it correctly
But that is ridiculous, as a business model. Who is going to pay more for Jordan Cousins in two years time? Standard or Liverpool? Liverpool of course because:
- the price for English players in the FAPL is artificially high - RD has already said that he hates paying big money transfers.
So Charlton need to break even according to RD. So sell a good young player, according to RD. So sell Cousins to Liverpool for 8m according to RD. No wait, lets sell him to Standard for 1m, because the owner of Standard doesnt pay silly money. But he's the owner of Charlton too, and that's 7m loss he has to cover.
Does nobody else see the absurdity of this?
Or does he pull Jordan to one side and say, Liverpool have offered you £30k a week son, but sign for my other team in Belgium and play regular UCL football with them for a year and Liverpool will come back with an improved offer of £70k a week and a regular starting place in their team. RD then sells Jordan to Liverpool for £35m, profits of which go to his various clubs.
Read all the above and to be honest I think the best barometer of what RD's intentions are will be if Chris walks which I think he would if he thought there was nothing in this for Charlton.
No idea if all this will work but I like the idea that he wants to run as as a break even business if at all possible. There is no future in getting hugely in debt chasing PL gold if you end up like Bolton, Cardiff, Pompey, et al.
-He mentions that there is the possibility of our best players going to Liege, which is fair enough - we are essentially a feeder club and Liege is big enough to be a parent club for us. -We will benefit from loans in, as evident by Astrit and co. coming in this year. -RD wont force anything, eg. by pumping money into one of the clubs or completely stripping all assets into a single club. -If we venture into the EPL, we could shift to become the priority. That would obviously be more lucrative than Liege in the Champions League. -He will aim to break even and make profits at all clubs.
I would be more worried if I was the Hungarian, Spanish or German club! Even Liege fans are unhappy that we may become the priority...
We obviously sold Kerm and Dale to balance the cheque book. Really interested to be part of this project.
Yes we have really benefited from the loans in so far haven't we, Astrit & co have made a big difference?
-He mentions that there is the possibility of our best players going to Liege, which is fair enough - we are essentially a feeder club and Liege is big enough to be a parent club for us. -We will benefit from loans in, as evident by Astrit and co. coming in this year. -RD wont force anything, eg. by pumping money into one of the clubs or completely stripping all assets into a single club. -If we venture into the EPL, we could shift to become the priority. That would obviously be more lucrative than Liege in the Champions League. -He will aim to break even and make profits at all clubs.
I would be more worried if I was the Hungarian, Spanish or German club! Even Liege fans are unhappy that we may become the priority...
We obviously sold Kerm and Dale to balance the cheque book. Really interested to be part of this project.
Yes we have really benefited from the loans in so far haven't we, Astrit & co have made a big difference?
AA has added to the team
Well since yann and Stephens have gone , poyet, astrit and reza have played and has been the best football we have played all season against Birmingham and qpr.
goes on to say clubs must sell to break even or some such, and that this may mean being sold to Liege if I understand it correctly
But that is ridiculous, as a business model. Who is going to pay more for Jordan Cousins in two years time? Standard or Liverpool? Liverpool of course because:
- the price for English players in the FAPL is artificially high - RD has already said that he hates paying big money transfers.
So Charlton need to break even according to RD. So sell a good young player, according to RD. So sell Cousins to Liverpool for 8m according to RD. No wait, lets sell him to Standard for 1m, because the owner of Standard doesnt pay silly money. But he's the owner of Charlton too, and that's 7m loss he has to cover.
Does nobody else see the absurdity of this?
Or does he pull Jordan to one side and say, Liverpool have offered you £30k a week son, but sign for my other team in Belgium and play regular UCL football with them for a year and Liverpool will come back with an improved offer of £70k a week and a regular starting place in their team. RD then sells Jordan to Liverpool for £35m, profits of which go to his various clubs.
All the above is based on no fact whatsoever!
And playing in Champions league adds a few more millions to the player's price tag!
I have a concern over how my Valley Gold money is spent. I only stay in it because it contributes to the yoot' set up, as to be honest I never win anything! I can stomach when one our home grown is sold to balance books or we get a decent amount, but if all we are doing is helping RDs network to expand, then I'm out. Time will tell I guess. BTW I do realise that our VG contributions don't cover the whole cost.
Saw the local news. Sounded to me that the SL guy expects CAFC talent to go to SL. In return, we get those who are found not to be good enough for SL.
If the above is correct, that sucks.
Pretty much. You can gloss it up all you like with theories etc., but this is how it is to the best RD can, we will have players with histories of injuries, non-scoring strikers and hit and miss players, they'll take our best if they can.
For example we have got 5 in , PP, Reza, Koc, Nego & AA.. AA is the only impact player we've had so far, only one that can warrant a start in our starting XI, granted it's early doors but...PP not built enough for this league, Koc an U21 player, Nego can't get a starting position, and Reza's job is nothing but to score goals, this he has not done. Let's see how it unfolds, let's hope the FA Cup bubble doesn't burst or we're in for a long old season
Comments
Obviously that is down to personal opinion...
I wonder who changed the game against qpr and put the cross in for the johnnie jackson last minute goal? Was it not AA? I'm sure thats a huge part in terms of 3 points difference that we never expected to get, which closed the gap on rivals and then reignited our belief to follow on at sheffield wednesday to get us to the quarter finals of the FA Cup.
Na not much of a difference at all. Could have kept stephens and kermorgant, who lets not forget got us in such a secure position in the league, and were able to beat sheffield wednesday and qpr earlier in the season....... Ah wait we were on a winless run and lost to QPR and drew to sheffield wednesday earlier in the season, so thus far things have changed for the positive IMO! Granted i did not want to lose kermorgant and we haven't replaced him as yet but astrit for one is an improvement on stephens and we are playing better football (actually on the floor) as shown in the sheffield game, as a result of it.
Roland says the managers will have to agree and sort things out between them as to who plays where, but he also suggested there is an organic quality about this, I suspect there would have to be, because players would have to agree to a move themselves....mind you money screams doesn't it?
So what happens if the SL man says 'I want Joe Gomez', and Chris Powell says 'I want him too'. Do you sack Chris Powell and get a yes man in? Seems likely to me and it is breaking my heart to type this.
Of course it may be that eternal consensus can be reached, and everybody is content with that.
If it is a new manager/coach is appointed, especially given what would then be our 'feeder club to Liege' role, then where would be the compelling need to be a supporter of that?
It is realistic to say our good players would move on anyway, I get that, and there is some intrigue in the football family idea...providing all the family members get on.
There is greater merit in saying to a player such as Archie Edwards 'I know there are overtures to leave Charlton and sign for Tottenham at your age, but stay here and there is a route to Champions League Football'.
We have lost two promising young players to Arsenal and Chelsea in recent years, and this concept, plus a serious upgrade of the Academy has a great degree of common sense, and I believe this is Roland's point.
Roland is saying, 'OK, you can carry on more or less as always, lose money constantly chasing dreams, or fending off disasters where the only way out is the premier league or a sugar daddy'. Or maybe don't buy players develop them, stop losing money hand over fist. As part of the group there is a financial safety net which will be realised (as in treating your children fairly?) If Liege take one of your players, there may be some money, or compensation in as much as a player 85% as good as the one transferred will come in.'
Or go bust if you like.
Could it be possible that both Standard Liege and Charlton could benefit? Could it ever happen that we get into the Premier League, and they get the Champions League?
The only scenario I can think of right now is if Standard are running away with their league by Christmas/January, at the same time we are having a good season and are in the top four or so. If that was the case Liege may be able to ship over some absolute top quality players to push us over the line. Indeed we already see that concept happening (so far in theory only!) as Liege has shipped over players to try to push us over the line to safety.
However we have lost Yann, Dale and Ben in the process, and if it fails and we are relegated then squad change rather than squad strengthening will be to blame.
If we stay up, the crucial question is where Chris fits in. Chris has already engaged with Roland, he says he wants to stay, build a legacy, is that in the context of the 'feeder club'/wonderful academy concept though? Can this happen? Can everybody give a bit?
The interview with the Standard Liege man was absolutely badly judged, and well done to the reporter by the way. There is apparently to be a meeting with all the clubs next week, who attends from Charlton we don't know. However it may be a good idea if Chris is there for the Liege guy to apologise for his lack of respect in that interview, not lack of respect for Chris, but lack of respect in his unthinking dismissal of Charlton as a serious club.
We need good representation at that meeting, and we need to find a way where all the clubs are treated with respect, and to use the analogy of Roland's football family, where we don't have the eldest child having their own room, whilst the other five all have to share with each other.
One of the worrying points for me from the article was where it said players not getting a game at SL would be sent to Charlton - to me that is saying they are not good enough for SL but will do for CAFC (like we are a charity shop, where we all dump our rubbish). Surely if they were any good they would be playing in SL's first team?
I'm starting to dislike this new owner & his megalomaniac ways more with each passing week. Whether or not our players will want to move abroad probably will not come into the equation - by all accounts Yann didn't want to leave but was shipped out regardless.
So this is better surely?
I remember being optimistic about our tie up with Inter Milan!
£8 million a season for SL in CL.
£120 million a season for CAFC in the Prem
Just one season is 15 years in the champ league at SL
Say we're doing okay in the championship but we have a red hot star coming through. Where would that player rather go? Standard Liege or go to a club in the premier league? With the greatest of respect to the belgian league, the player would not earn as much nor be playing with the best players in the world.
This may all be irrelevant if RD sells Standard...
Managers have always been forced to sell players for financial reasons, and that is what has happened recently. Griping about the quality of the replacements needs to be set against the alternative of not having them replaced at all.
RD is trying to say clearly that players will be sold, rather than let the club face financial instability. Those unhappy with the degree of squad strengthening are refusing to accept the alternative was a worse place financially, even if it guaranteed staying up. RD could have written the introduction for CAS Trust on the overriding objective of, above all else, preserving the club for future generations and the community.
There will potentially be competition between sister clubs to get the best deal when a player transfer is on the table. If we accept RD's position, and I tend to, that he wants clubs to deliver their own destiny, then I believe KM will be involved in the financial arrangements between clubs and seek to establish market terms and valuations and fairness between sister clubs. Managers worth their salt wouldn't work under a system where they were accountable but had to agree to sell players internally below market value, or pay inflated wages, with no financial adjustment.
A fair transfer agreement between sister clubs at least avoids the normal bun fight starting with an over-inflated offer price tag and an agreed price determined by how desperate the selling club is.
The meeting between clubs being talked about just makes sense to ensure the clubs understand what the rules are around exchanging players. If RD does get involved in trying to influence transfers against the manager's will that is when we can say RD speaks with forked tongue.
Until then I give him the benefit of the doubt and taking RD's words at face value regarding clubs managing their own destiny, I do not see the risk of us losing good players has increased, and the value from players who advance beyond CAFC more likely to be maximised.
The downside is that he is closing the door on acquiring players by transfer to add to the academy graduates. I say this because I think it would help sell tickets and show ambition to the players that we want to compete at the right end of the table. But he is saying "we don't want to lose a lot of money" (like Leicester, Cardiff and Forest). He is NOT saying that CAFC must break even at all costs.
I think the management of playing style and talent across the group is not properly addressed - he sits on the fence when challenged about prioritising Premier League promotion. As has been mentioned elsewhere a group director of football may be the only way to manage tensions. The unwanted part of the League 1 championship squad will depart this summer and there will be a lot of squad numbers available. Will these go to academy players, Liege players or perhaps one or two from outside the group?
As some will know the supporters Trust (and others) have attempted to outline the cup revenues coming in these last couple of months and the value of next Sunday's game. They are decent up until Sunday with c. £950K coming in and spectacular if we win. So CAFC will post its best financial performance since Premier League relegation if we make it to Wembley with losses of £3-4M as opposed to £6-7M over the last few seasons.
It is much more difficult to estimate additional league revenues coming in from competing for the top six but I would contend that they will help finance the club AND that a successful squad will help player retention and improve sale value. I see no reason why we can't move the average attendance upwards and I hope that this organic approach would appeal to our new owner?
All the above is based on no fact whatsoever!
No idea if all this will work but I like the idea that he wants to run as as a break even business if at all possible. There is no future in getting hugely in debt chasing PL gold if you end up like Bolton, Cardiff, Pompey, et al.
Also based on no fact whatsoever! ;-)
If the above is correct, that sucks.
RD also blamed some of the unrest with supporters at SL last year as being the consequence of perhaps having been too open with the fans.
Hoping I've got the wrong end of the stick.
For example we have got 5 in , PP, Reza, Koc, Nego & AA.. AA is the only impact player we've had so far, only one that can warrant a start in our starting XI, granted it's early doors but...PP not built enough for this league, Koc an U21 player, Nego can't get a starting position, and Reza's job is nothing but to score goals, this he has not done. Let's see how it unfolds, let's hope the FA Cup bubble doesn't burst or we're in for a long old season